hope456, part 2

[hope456]

Re: feeling like a failure - yep, been there not too long ago. I always succeeded at everything (high school valedictorian! 1st chair flautist! 4.0 student! Accepted to the only grad school I applied to! and so on and so on) so it was hard for me to face a situation where I couldn't make it happen how I wanted to happen. What helped for me?
-recognizing that this is not all on us. We didn't make this happen. Did we contribute? Yes. But that doesn't mean we "failed." Our H's contributed to this as well, and were the ones that ultimately walked away. I don't want to blame our H's for everything but we also aren't failures in this. Some things are just out of our hands no matter how "perfect" we may try to be from here on forward. We can influence but we can't make them change their minds.
-The book "The Happiness Trap" has a lot of great techniques for helping with negative thoughts like these, and accepting that they are just words or stories - they aren't necessarily reality or true. One example is to distance yourself from the thought - when you find yourself thinking "I'm a failure!" then think "I'm noticing I'm having the thought that I'm a failure." Say them both outloud to yourself - doesn't the 2nd option feel less stressful? Another example is to put the thought to the tune of a song and "sing" it to yourself. These things all help you "defuse" the thought so that you don't take it so seriously and recognize it for what it is - just a thought or words.

-Re: only wanting to be friends up until H dates someone else - I feel the same way. I realized that the reason I had this "condition" on the friendship was because I only wanted to be friends with H if there was still a chance we'd get back together, and in my mind, if he started dating, we wouldn't get back together, so what's the point? I came to the conclusion that if I was only going to be friends under the premise that we might get back together, then that wasn't the right friendship for me, at least at this point in time. Maybe later things might change, but at this point (and this is what I told my H when he still wanted to be friends/still thought I was his best friend) it's not what I want for my life.

Hey, I'm a fellow high school valedictorian! According to my parents, I have always, since toddlerhood, done what was expected of me. That continued throughout school, college, and into my career. I have very high expectations of myself. It is very hard for me to accept that I have failed at something that is so important to me.

Thank you for recommending The Happiness Trap. I am adding it to my reading list. I put Codependent No More on hold for a bit because I've decided I need to do some reading for pleasure. Reading is my surefire escape and I think I need it right now.

WRT being friends...I'm very torn about this. My H is my best friend. I truly do think he feels the same way. He is the first person I want to call when I hear an amusing story or an amusing joke, have a good day at work, have a bad day at work, need a good laugh, etc. He does the same thing. Yesterday he tells me he wants a D. This morning, he emails me about something funny that happened at his office. I can't imagine not having him in my life in some capacity. In addition to that, I think that having a friendship with my H helps to keep some connection alive. However, the thought of him being physically intimate with someone else is something I'm not sure I can handle. He has mentioned that it bothers him that my mind always goes there (him sleeping with someone else). He claims to have no interest in that. Maybe because my LL is physical touch, it's that thought that bothers me most. He would be giving what I desire so much to someone else. I'm really not sure what to do about the friendship thing. He emailed me today asking if I wanted to come over and catch up on a show we used to watch together. He wants us to do that next week because he's finishing up his classwork this week. I guess it is something I could try. If it is too hard for me, I can always stop it later.

[hope456]

Labug, artsy, Upwards, Bunches, vossy, KGirl - Thank you all so much for bearing with me during my craziness. I really do appreciate your support and advice. In reading my own posts, I feel like I sound very irrational, which is typically not me at all. I am reading what you are saying and trying to take it all in.

My head is still absolutely spinning. To give you a sampling of the kinds of thoughts I'm having today:

-How am I going to afford to send D7 to college?
-How am I going to find someone else to date someday?
-Should I keep my married name or go back to my maiden name?
-How am I going to tell D7 that her parents are getting a divorce?
-How am I ever going to be vulnerable with someone again the way that I've been vulnerable with my H?
-Am I going to end up being a pathetic person that sits around waiting for my H for five years (his hypothetical timeline)? I really, really hope not.
-Should I tell H that he can no longer store his motorcycle in the garage of my house?

As I think you would all advise me, I'm going to try to slow down and take one day at a time. Heck, it might be one hour at a time right now.

So, here are some things I've decided to do in the next week or so:

-Read the 5LL. I know my H's love language and I've been doing my best to use it. I want to actually read the book to get some additional ideas. Even if we're just friends for now, I think it will help if my goal is R and if he hasn't closed the door on us being together again someday.
-I'm ordering furniture for our family room. We have two living areas in our house. H took the furniture from the family room when he moved out. I've resisted filling the room because I was so hopeful that he would be back and it would be an unnecessary expense. I need my house to feel homey and complete again and the empty room (first one on the left when you walk in the front door) really bothers me.
-Journaling like crazy to get my thoughts out without expressing them all to my H.
-Call a DB coach.
-Running on the nights when I don't have D7. I find that running outside really helps me clear my mind. It's a habit I've gotten out of, but I'm determined to bring it back up.
-Schedule a time to talk to H about the custody arrangements with D7. She has expressed confusion over them and I think he and I need to have a conversation about it. I want to wait a few days as I'm still working through all the emotions from yesterday and I don't want the conversation to be emotionally-charged.

I have some specific questions, that I'd like to get input on. I'll take input on anything I've said above as well. Really, feel free to tell me that I'm being irrational or overcomplicating or whatever. I'm trying to learn as much as I can.

*25yearsmlc (or anyone, really) - Do you think it is a bad idea for me to ask my H if he would consider Retrovaille? There is a session in my city next month. I had already requested all the information. I felt like things were getting better with H and I was saving the idea for when I felt like he was closer to thinking there was hope for us.
*In my state, there is only a 60-day waiting period between filing for D and when it could be finalized. So, if H files soon, there really isn't much time. My parents got D when I was 7. It really bothers me that the same thing is going to happen to my D7. I am considering asking H to wait to finalize until after she turns 8. I just can't shake the idea that history is repeating itself. I realize that a few months probably won't make much of a difference in how my D7 handles things. Still, it would really mean a lot to me if my H could respect that request for me. Am I being crazy if I ask for that?

Just to share a little more...I bought a new car tonight. My H has handled car negotiations for us for a long time. This time was no different. He asked me what makes/models I was interested in. He negotiated with the dealership and got my payment to be very close to what it was already. He called me and asked what color I wanted. All I had to do was show up, sign the paperwork, and accept delivery. Despite the conversation from yesterday, we financed the car together. He didn't suggest that we do anything differently. He also mentioned several times how he thought this was a great deal "for us." Maybe it's just habit for him to say that. Maybe he financed with me because he feels guilty. Who knows?

[hope456]

Saw H this morning. He dropped by the house to drop something off. It is the first time he hasn't hugged me when he was leaving. It just doesn't feel right.

[hope456]

Just want to bump up my question from last night about Retrovaille. Would it be a bad idea to ask my H if he was willing to go?

[hope456]

H called me after his therapy appointment to tell me a funny story. He called back a few minutes later to tell me that he wanted me to know that he is saying he hasn't closed the door because he still thinks there may be another time for us and he doesn't know what will happen in the future. He says he isn't just saying it because he thinks it is what i want to hear. I'm not sure whether to believe him or not. He said he doesn't know when or if there will be a right time. He doesn't want me to put my life on hold and wait for him because that isn't fair to me. I don't want to give up hope yet, I'm feeling pretty hopeless right now.

And I don't know if I should accept his invitation to hang out next week.

[MrBond]

Tell him that you had already made plans for that day and appreciate his offer. And that maybe you can meet another time (but don't push it).

Get him to wonder what you are doing with your life.

[Upwards]

Hope you will stay in this cycle until your ready (mentally & emotionally) & strong enough to move forwards, by "holding on" to your marriage (we all did it, its perfectly natural and part of the process) you are keeping yourself stuck - I know its not what you want, many of us felt the same, but I stand by the saying "you have to be willing to loose you marriage in order to save it".

You have to let go of your H and your M and travel this journey because YOU want to be the best you can, not for your H but for yourself regardless of the outcome. 2 broken people cant make a marriage a success so its your job to get yourself into a really good place for if you get that opportunity in the future, does that make any sense?

[LongRoad06]

I straight up asked my H about Retrouvaille. I convinced him to go, but we got there and he said he "knew everything they said already." Even though he admitted some pretty deep things there.

We slipped back into status quo. He refused to go to POST sessions. I'd love to go again and have him participate, but he's not at the point where he can yet. He doesn't even see his contributions to the downfall of the marriage.

If he's even slightly receptive to any counseling, you might bring it up. Mine had already filed for divorce, and I figured I didn't have anything to lose.

[vossy]

I guess the thing to remember is that it *was* working, so even though it feels like two steps forward, one step back, you should keep trying. Just reset and start again. In terms of being "in love" and so on, my mother had an affair when I was about 6-7. She fell in love with the other man and it continued long after she told my dad. My dad made the decision to wait, despite her telling him she was not in love with him anymore. Long story short, the affair ended, she came home, and they are quite the happy couple these days.. after 32 years of marriage. It's not impossible.

This makes a lot of sense to me. I do think things were working. He was responding differently. He was responding differently back in December before he moved out. We were spending lots of time together then. Unprompted, he told me then that he felt hopeful and like he was making the wrong decision, but he still needed to move out just to be sure. I validated that (the still moving out) and told him I understood and did it all exactly as I've seen advised here repeatedly. Now, he's rewritten that and says we were just beginning a good friendship. However, the rewriting has come after 4 months of living apart, spending little time together, and me having emotional meltdowns every month or so. I think (maybe) I understand. Some of my changes haven't been consistent enough for him to really believe yet. Maybe what I need to do is forgive myself for my reaction yesterday and go back to acting like I was three days ago. I was not applying any pressure. I was giving lots of space. H says that it will be easier to be around me and hang out as friends now that he's said he definitely wants a D. Maybe I experiment with that some. If I was getting a good result previously (in December), maybe it will start to work again.

Does that make sense? Or is it just a lot of rambling?

Totally makes sense - this is exactly what I meant. I think you do need to forgive yourself for those little moments where you forget everything.. it's natural, it can't be helped. But don't let it take you off course. You still have time to work on things and perhaps get things back on track before the D comes around. Sure, you might not get him to come home immediately, but even if you can just postpone the filing of the D (subtly, of course) then you an buy yourself some time.

As for working on things, I am in agreement with your comments about that. You need to work on them for *you* more than for anybody else, but if that also has the side bonus of making your husband see that you can change, then that is even better. You have the same attitude as me about the whole thing.. I feel like you could be me! Haha. I also have full faith that your relationship can be turned around.. so keep trying.

[25yearsmlc]

Hi Hope, you asked me to stop by and so, I am.

For now, I'm being brief b/c I have not read thru the whole thread...

No offense taken. My H is remarkably un-self aware. I think he's looking for this elusive thing called happiness that he believes you can find and possess.

THIS^^ is so common in our society, it ought to be labelled an epidemic.


He did say that if he changes his mind in five years and feels some spark--and I'm not available, then that's his loss. So he has some recognition that the possibility exists that I won't be waiting around.

He needs to realize this^^ way more, and he won't by you telling him in words...right now he's merely hypothecating. And btw, my h said the same thing to me. Only when he suspected that I was dating, did he realize he might actually lose me AND "our family"....

WASs seem to be a lot more attentive when some other OP notices their LBS. It may seem like high school (a lot of this does) but it's really common. If it were not so unfair to OPs, I'd suggest renting dates now and then, just to let the reality of another man helping you raise your d, and being in the "family home" and yes, sleeping with you (and you LIKING it a lot), hitting them with truth. Some mystery and the REAL CHANCE of you being with OM needs to air itself out there...not with words but with silence, mystery, GAL activities and vague answers. When he saw the FB picture with other men in it, he commented b/c he's probing. He wants to know the "family fix" he needs every so often will still be there. And he wants to make sure he does not FEEL like he's being the way his dad was.

But I see this SO MUCH I'm wondering if it's genetic or some weird acting out, but it ends up hurting the ones you love the most, or should. MEANING, a lot of men here walk out on their families, but they come from that same background and resent their own dads for doing what they are NOW choosing...I think your h is about the 10th man I've read about, who comes from that background and "vowed" never to do that to HIS kids...and then does it. And regrets it, even while doing it. I believe guilt converts into anger/blame at the source of the guilt, which will usually be the LBS.

So I always tell LBSers NOT to "Try and guilt the WAS" b/c it never ever results in a lasting reconciliation. Shame is not a motivator for genuine lasting change. MY DB coach said something along the lines of "while it's rare that an LBSer admits to wanting to guilt their spouse, all the questions that start with "how can you do..." OR "why did you..." are designed to make the recipient feel defensive.

Those ("Why?" and "HOW CAN YOU...?" are the types of questions to be avoided..." and I think that is a great insight of hers. Keep it in mind, b/c the guilt that you participate in (not that he feels on his own, at night when he used to tuck her in, or knows he missed out on something, etc) is guilt that will backfire on you. The other things, the consequences that LIFE gives him, are his to handle, not yours.

I assume since you met while you were a freshman in college, your h does not have a lot of experience seeing you with OMs. I cannot see how it would hurt the situation, but I'll finish reading your thread...
And It helps to know there are good men out there. THIS site has proved that, as well.


Of course, he also said today that he doesn't want me to sleep with anyone else and that would make him jealous (even a couple years down the line). He literally sometimes contradicts himself from sentence to sentence. It's pretty frustrating. That isn't new behavior, so you'd think I'd be accustomed to it by now.

3 things to do/think when he talks about the future or your M or R...(which you do Not bring up unless it's b/c you are filing and letting him know...)

1) pay NO attention to spew or his "thinking out loud;" just don't --- UNLESS

2) you can listen for clues or "intel" about what was missing/"wrong" in the marriage, that you can control or change, AND which you would like change...so you can become a woman only a fool would leave...

IF you act like you are on a recon assignment, gathering "intel", instead of getting defensive or fearful, you LISTEN for useful info for later analysis. If it's not useful or it's too hurtful, you STOP letting it in.


3) IF HE brings up a painful piece of the past, AND IF there was something you did that hurt him, you can say "H, I'm sorry I hurt you. IF I had it all over to do again, there are lots of things I'd do differently."

IF HE brings up something from the past that is not true or you do not recall it that way (and trust me, our memories get foggy too, so don't call him a "liar" like THIS woman almost said to her h...but before I could blurt out something in anger (brilliantly), my oldest d mentioned that it was true! So I really had not recalled it that way at all!)

You can say "Wow, that's not how I recall 'X' at all, but I'm sorry you were hurt, (and then repeat the second clause) "and if I had it all to do over again, I'd do a lot of things differently."

Those^^ responses show YOUR ability/desire to change, your genuine regret about pain you caused, and neither response is overly defensive on your end. They don't escalate matters, but nor are you kissing up for something you don't even recall, so you're not being a doormat.


A friend suggested today that it might be best for me to let the D happen as fast as possible. She thinks when he sees that he's still not just magically happy all of a sudden that he might look back.

I understand thinking this^^. It might even be true, but there are other possibilities as well.


She also suggested that he might feel that this (a D) is the only thing he has control of that I can't change. So, if I just let it happen, it allows him to feel in control.

You have no control over this.^^ You cannot make it 'not' happen so the statement "if I just let it happen..." suggests you are under the illusion that you do have some control. You don't. You can file, or you can stay in limbo waiting for him to file. That is what you control.

I check Leslie Cane's blog every few days and read her posts. I have found it useful and have found that a lot of it lines up with DB.

More later...meanwhile remember, don't get bogged down in what was or is said today,yesterday or tomorrow.

My h said things he does NOT recall and insists he'd "never say that", but I know he did. I even know where I was when he said it and what I was doing (in the guest bathroom, repairing the drywall)...so how important was what my h said then, if he literally cannot recall it and does not believe he'd "ever" say something like that?? I don't know the answer but the comment he made at the time was when I asked him if he believed I was "bluffing" or if he was "willing to take the chance of losing [his] family" and he replied, "I guess I'm willing to take that chance..." (And that comment killed me.)

but like I said, he does not believe he'd ever say that. But he did. And at the time he may even have meant it. Who knows? Does it matter now? Maybe not but at the time, OUCH.