Have I any hope...?

[25yearsmlc]

25. I seem to have touched a nerve.

And whatever you do, don't tell her you made changes for you, because that's just you being selfish.

I disagree with this^^^. Aside from more mind reading, what reason CAN he give if the changes are not for him? For HER? That's not true change; it's a tactic that won't last...

ZEW,

No, you did not touch a nerve. I just disagreed, and I'm very direct. In fact, come to think of it, I think I'd actually tell you if you touched a nerve...

What I'm suggesting is that he doesn't want to go and say "Hey look, I've changed, and I did it for me."
At least in my case, that goes down the "Yes, it's all about you" path.
It's better to show change than to proclaim change.

It's a completely different situation if she notices the changes and asks why he did it. Then it would be fine to say he did it for himself.
But that's not how I read the original post.

And yes, if you've committed to spider watch, don't reneg now.

Total agreement the changes are NOT to be brought up by him, ever.

There are various ways to address changes if you KNOW you have made them and she's choosing not to see that. If that is the case, we can help you respond.

so, how is the "Killer Spider Watch" going?

[bashy]

Hi 25. Still on holiday but have not had contact with WAW since the picture I emailed a few days back.
As for 'spider watch', we shall see if she asks again at sone point but I aim to not offer again.
I'm quite proud of not contacting her on a regular basis. I definitely feel that is important so that WAW does not feel pressured in any way. She knows how I feel but I will not pursue in any way.
My problems do occur when she asks me to have lunch with her and D or the most recent time when she offered to pick me up from the airport this weekend. Should I say no thanks or say thank you, that would be great? I'm worried that the way she has been interacting is a positive sign but that if I keep saying no then I am jeopardising things.

[25yearsmlc]

Bashy,

What are you GAL now? Not that you "plan" on doing "later", but what have you actually started?

Assuming that the answer is "not a lot yet", then I'd just urge you to make things happen in your life. It's a lesson we learn a bit late I guess but it really is a life lesson for US.

WE are in charge of our lives and our own happiness.

IF you come to truly believe that^^ last sentence, truly, it changes you...

From what your w can see, I think, you're in better shape (what does a "stone" weigh, btw? You mentioned losing "two stones" and I chuckled b/c I have no idea what that amounts to).

Since she has outright told you she does not "fancy" you, which I think means she's not feeling the chemistry but she "loves you as a person", it means you need to re-create that in the r.

But first let me ask you, do you think you guys once had good chemistry, or has the R always been medium temperature? I note you lived together a long time before marrying, and it was after your d was born.

I'm American and I know the UK is somewhat different, but my immediate question when I read that, was "What took you so long?" And inwardly I felt that your m was probably "okay" b/c it did not sound very enriched.

You've both left each other before, if I recall right. The question I truly mean is, were you ever both IN LOVE with each other, as far as you know?

Did you say she only told you she loved you, well after the marriage or living together?

Okay this matters b/c if you once had the "real deal", it is much easier to recall what worked and what didn't.

If you never "really had IT" as a couple, then you need to make new paths b/c there are no old ones to return to.

Based on her comments, I'm betting that her biggest fear connected to a reconciliation, is that she'll' "waste her life as a boring housewife" and or, live a life without passion.

Is that^^ more or less the main thing?

Having little free time together is a huge obstacle to creating a closer M.

My suggestions are that you get IC for yourself, and see if down the road, you two can attend "Retrovaille", which i mentioned at length earlier. (I think I posted it here on this thread, but let me know if not).

That's for down the road OR IF you think she'd attend "to learn tools for handling co-parenting", I don't believe it could harm your r. For now, just research it in your area.

Keep the mystery going. I believe if she thinks she might lose you to OW and your changes are real, i.e. you have become the man she wanted you to become,

you'll see a change in her reaction to you. That means you must GAL asap.

Tell me something you've joined or started or signed up for, and if there is nothing, aim to repair that THIS month (as in April).

No more "Mr homebody" b/c she associates that with boredom and lack of passion.

And life is short. She does not want to be with or become a spectator in life. She wants to be with a participant in life. Make sense?

Have you changed your schedule yet? I know you said it's a "drastic pay cut" but here's the thing.'

IMO, at some point you have to get a day job, b/c you'll either never reconcile but need to meet OWs and friends and I can't see how that works if you are never awake when 90% of other people are...

OR you will reconcile and she'll have her nights alone again, which she clearly does not want. Plus you'll have more time with your d.

IF I were you, I'd be looking for day jobs that pay as well as you can find...regardless of what your w is doing.

I mean, how can you reconcile without changing that schedule of yours?

Keep on keeping on and I'll post more later...

I think you're on the right track for how you interact. You just need to be DOING MORE when she is not around you, FOR you...and for your changes.

A little mystery would be GOOD for you (and maybe for her to see that you are a good catch, sexy to OWs, would be good. Dress up, get a NEW Cologne

(newness means mystery and change and it's such an easy one to make, plus it will make her wonder)...trust me on this. I'm very scent oriented and a lot of women are...

This is just an example of change you can demonstrate, but that isn't life shattering, yet will be noticed...

You need to have a very "busy meeting new interesting people, doing FUN things and going to fascinating places, so Ta Ta for now"...type of attitude.

Make sense?

((( )))

[bashy]

Hi 25,
What have I started? That's a good q. I booked a holiday for myself, bought a new car but as for the gym nothing. I plan on starting Spanish lessons and guitar lessons when I return from holiday but yes, I should have started these a good while back.

When I say I lost two stones that equates to approx. 28 pounds.

I do believe we did and still do have great chemistry. We still laugh a lot at things when chatting. But as I said, my 'homebody' persona has affected our marriage. It took a while to get married simply due to the costs involved but went for it after we got back together about 5 years ago. My W is adamant that she truly loved me on our marriage day and I believe her. She said her sister said she did not love her H when they got married so, as I say, I believe her. As for telling each other 'I love you'... We said this continually from the beginning of our R.

As for the boring housewife comment. I believe thàt is the main thing of why things broke down. She always mentioned my working hours as affecting our R but I ignored this because my wages are so much better compared to if I worked normal hours. However I am seriously considering changing this b/c even if we don't get back together how will I meet someone else?!?!

I will say that my whole clothes/cologne issue is a change I have made and she has commented on that. But I did this for me b/c it makes me feel gd. This will continue.

I hope this has helped you understand my sitch more. And again, thank you sooo much for your help and support. More of this would be appreciated :-)

[25yearsmlc]

Hi 25,
What have I started? That's a good q. I booked a holiday for myself, bought a new car but as for the gym nothing. I plan on starting Spanish lessons and guitar lessons when I return from holiday but yes, I should have started these a good while back.

When you are doing these things and making time for them, that proves, (whether she says so or not, and it's not THE point anyhow), but yes it "proves" that more time would be available for the next r to be attended to. That means you can have & nurture a R with a woman, whom you/we hope is your wife.

That "evidence" needs to be front and center when you interact. That's to SHOW CHANGE ON YOUR END. If you like the Spanish class & guitar lessons, it'll be harder for her to say "but it's just a tactic". Make sense?

Obviously, if you reconcile, you'll need to keep doing some of those on your own b/c you're independent and you bring something to the table,
(& b/c these are not merely tactics to gain her back, but real interests of yours b/c you are not a "homebody who puts no effort into life but going to work and coming home to 'rest' anymore...)
but hopefully she'll either join you on one of them, or you'll decide together on a class.
It's very bonding (& fun) to learn something new, together. I HIGHLY recommend it.

When I say I lost two stones that equates to approx. 28 pounds.

Good for you! Are you working out too, (or just doing the "OMG I'm in grief/I can't eat 'diet'"? That 'diet' is effective but horrid.

I do believe we did and still do have great chemistry. We still laugh a lot at things when chatting. But as I said, my 'homebody' persona has affected our marriage. It took a while to get married simply due to the costs involved but went for it after we got back together about 5 years ago.

IF SHE would say the same thing^^, about delaying a marriage, and not a word about doubts or apathy on either end, then it sounds reasonable.

I mean, it's not the passion I like to see...And btw, to ME, having a chid with someone, is a way BIGGER commitment than taking vows. So when I see couples with kids not yet married, I tend to think "it's their R that they are Not sure of...and I think they divorce even more than typical couples. Just a thought, based on experience here. I don't have other empirical evidence. Just believe that strongly....for what it's worth, which isn't much now.

My W is adamant that she truly loved me on our marriage day and I believe her.

She said her sister said she did not love her H when they got married so, as I say, I believe her. As for telling each other 'I love you'... We said this continually from the beginning of our R.

How about NOT ever asking her that again, what she used to feel? See, there is no value in that question IF you want to reconcile. Do you get why?

The question & topic itself is a blatant form of pursuit. I think what you are really asking her, or implying, is that she still loves you, or should, and that she just doesn't know it yet or is hiding from it, or maybe she is lying and never did love you...

don't corner her into saying that, just so she doesn't worry about 'leading you on'.... Remember, the more you challenge her choices, the more she'll defend them. Same for the emotions.

As for the boring housewife comment. I believe thàt is the main thing of why things broke down. She always mentioned my working hours as affecting our R but I ignored this because my wages are so much better compared to if I worked normal hours. However I am seriously considering changing this b/c even if we don't get back together how will I meet someone else?!?!

You have to change this for those^^ very reasons. She told you (IN EFFECT) that "you don't have enough time for ME or our marriage." You ignored that, which you admit, b/c You chose money over time with her, even when she expressed her desire for you to choose her.
She knew the money was better by taking night shifts, but she wanted more time with you anyway.

For you to ignore her request, which came from a place of neglected love, has to have felt like a slap in the face to her. And it has to change before you can assume she'll want back in the m, AND STAYS back in...do you get that?

I mean, instead of saying she fears being a "boring housewife", change the word "boring" to the word "lonely"...

I will say that my whole clothes/cologne issue is a change I have made and she has commented on that. But I did this for me b/c it makes me feel gd. This will continue.

I'm glad the changes will continue.


I hope this has helped you understand my sitch more. And again, thank you sooo much for your help and support. More of this would be appreciated :-)

I think I do understand it. I'm just wondering what life changes you could have made that would have changed things, and I can see that altering your schedule is obviously required.

But that has not changed, correct? So in HER eyes, could she say that, to you, making more money is more important that being with her?

Don't scoff. MANY spouses who feel neglected, and are told that the schedule "pays better THIS way", are hearing "I don't want to PAY for more time with you, even if it means divorce".

And there are SOME WASs who say "IF I KNEW SHE'D take me back, then...." but that means 1) it's only a tactic to get her back and 2) you'd be back to the old schedule in a heartbeat and she'd be right back where she was, if you reconciled,

and 3) that down deep, you'd "prefer" being married to her, but when push comes to shove, more time together is simply not a priority for you.

This^^ is mind reading except that it's based on HER comments to you about being ships passing in the night. When I said that to my h, I meant an ultimatum.

(I did not "issue" an ultimatum, but that is what I felt I was doing.) Today I'm more direct.

Bottom line is you want your w to notice the changes AND wonder about how much better a partner you'll be soon...for someone...and how if it is an OW, that OW benefits by your wife's efforts.

Most wives do NOT enjoy the work they did, for the benefit of some OW.
Drives many of them nuts enough to MAYBE re-think their choice to leave...
OR maybe to think "leaving him triggered these changes...so maybe now it's safe to reconcile"...
so that the choice to leave was not 'wrong", it was helpful!
But now, staying apart makes less & less sense...that's what the secondary over all goal is, while the first over all goal is to LIVE YOUR LIFE BETTER and in more participating ways.

She did not want to be married to a spectator of life, b/c she prefers a participant.

Make sense? Aren't these changes good for YOU? If you believe that, then you're more likely to keep them going.

Good luck! You're in a better position than many here. Keep on keeping on.

[bashy]

Hi 25. What if I do change my working hours and I don't get her back? I'll be left with a substantial drop in wages and no wife. At least with my wage now I can get my own place etc. if I change I'll be stuck living with my father and not enough money to buy my own place. Jeez, this is a huge risk. I'm scared.

I left daughter home today and chatted to WAW. Was really nice and pleasant but I kept the mystery about my holiday then left. It seems it's all I can do.

[25yearsmlc]

Hi 25. What if I do change my working hours and I don't get her back?

Um, hello? You just finished saying you won't be able to meet OW with your night shifts. Now you wonder if there is a guarantee of getting her back without a BIG change on your end. Boy does this sound familiar. First off, NONE of us EVER get any guarantee that our changes will get the WAS back. Nor will we get a guarantee of them staying with us...

Here's MY guarantee...I'm fairly sure you will NOT get her back without that change. And as for meeting OWs down the road, not sure how that will happen but what you KNOW, is that your night shift hurt your marriage. That is what you KNOW...

I'll be left with a substantial drop in wages and no wife.

So you've made your choice. The money IS what makes YOU feel safe & "happy", or "happier"...so admit it and pay the price. OR re-evaluate that choice.

At least with my wage now I can get my own place etc. if I change I'll be stuck living with my father and not enough money to buy my own place. Jeez, this is a huge risk. I'm scared.


Who wasn't scared? We all were damn terrified. You sure seem to boil it down to two hideous choices as if there is nothing you can do to change the equation. Surely SOME day jobs pay better than the day shift at your present job. (Yeah you'll have to LOOK!) It won't fall into your lap. But don't say "two ships passing in the night" KNOW that your job hours sukked for marriage, refuse to change that and then insist you want your m to work.

you don't get to have it all your way. (That's just life, and that's how it is for all of us).

I left daughter home today and chatted to WAW. Was really nice and pleasant but I kept the mystery about my holiday then left. It seems it's all I can do.

It seems all you WILL CHOOSE to do...Start owning that.

If I were your wife, I'd know that money was more important to you than taking a chance to pursue me by giving something up...and I'd be reluctant to want to feel like the 2nd choice much longer, which I believe she has been feeling.

Your comments make it apparent that while you do "prefer" her, ("eh? Kind of...")

she's not key to your happiness nearly as much as your decision to
1) not change shifts and
2) not try to change JOBS --- so you can have a good income AND a reasonable schedule.

YOU have made it a silly choice. Either or. But the simplest equation ("only THIS SHIFT and ONLY THIS JOB!") means that you can tell yourself you have done "all you can do"....ie not much, except to be more pleasant around her. Pretty convenient....

[25yearsmlc]

why don't you ask your wife what SHE thinks, (without pursuing or asking for a guarantee)?

[bashy]

Hi 25. Thank you for not holding back ;-). But I do appreciate it.

So I was one step ahead of you in a way lol. I have applied for a day shift role with my current company. I will be considered for it but it depends on (i) whether someone leaves on days and (ii) if they can replace me on nights as not many want to work the graveyard shift.
I really want to stay with these guys as they are fantastic to work for and there isn't a lot of jobs out there at present.

Secondly, I contacted my WAW and told her what I had done and said although I didn't need to tell her at all (as we are no longer together) I wanted to inform her so that it wasn't sprung on her if she needed me to come get the little one some morning after my night shift ended.

Anyway, the question which I was expecting came straight away.... "So what's brought this about?" she said.
I told her that I was struggling with being tired all the time, that I was having to turn down meeting friends for dinner/drinks/nights out etc because of my anti-social hours and that I was taking a huge pay cut to do it. However, I said that our D would always be the No 1 priority and nothing would impact in any way me being a part of her life as much as it's always been.
I asked how she was getting along and she proceeded to chat about her work and how she finds it difficult with the little one during the week as she feels guilty having someone babysit her if she needs to go out because she doesn't see her at the weekend. I made sure that I didn't interrupt her and told her she is doing a great job with D. I then ended the conversation as always.

Was the question from my WAW something you would have expected from her from what I've told you?

[25yearsmlc]

Hi 25. Thank you for not holding back ;-). But I do appreciate it.

So I was one step ahead of you in a way lol. I have applied for a day shift role with my current company. I will be considered for it but it depends on (i) whether someone leaves on days and (ii) if they can replace me on nights as not many want to work the graveyard shift.
I really want to stay with these guys as they are fantastic to work for and there isn't a lot of jobs out there at present.

Have you really looked?

Secondly, I contacted my WAW and told her what I had done and said although I didn't need to tell her at all (as we are no longer together) I wanted to inform her so that it wasn't sprung on her if she needed me to come get the little one some morning after my night shift ended.

Anyway, the question which I was expecting came straight away.... "So what's brought this about?" she said.

I told her that I was struggling with being tired all the time, that I was having to turn down meeting friends for dinner/drinks/nights out etc because of my anti-social hours and that I was taking a huge pay cut to do it. However, I said that our D would always be the No 1 priority and nothing would impact in any way me being a part of her life as much as it's always been.

Why didn't you begin & end, with saying that you want more quality time for family and friends 7 GAL?

Your answer excluded her or your marital situation as a factor. How odd it must have sounded to her to hear you do exactly what she wanted, but not for her or anything remotely resembling HER , and you mentioned your d last, using the words "although"....which makes it seem like you'll have LESS time with her but is that true? If so, explain HOW you will make your d a priority if you're going to have less time for her. Are you? I thought just the opposite.

Plus, with HER (w's) schedule you can lessen her mother guilt if you can help her more, but if that's not the case, admit it! If time with your d was a reason FOR the night shift, address that too.


I asked how she was getting along and she proceeded to chat about her work and how she finds it difficult with the little one during the week as she feels guilty having someone babysit her if she needs to go out because she doesn't see her at the weekend.

?? You mean she only sees her then? Is there anything you can do to aid her or your d, with her situation? OR offer to?


I made sure that I didn't interrupt her and told her she is doing a great job with D. I then ended the conversation as always.

Was the question from my WAW something you would have expected from her from what I've told you?

Yes it is a question I expected.
She may have hoped you'd say "I did it so I'd have more time with the people in my life who don't work nights AND for all my GAL..." Instead you mentioned everything but her or GAL.

why? Were you so afraid of looking as if you were pursuing her? I get that, but I also get the sense that her love language is quality time...btw, read The Five Love Languages by Chapman when you get the chance. I recommend it for every couple.

maybe you'd have heard her better when she made the comments about passing ships and the homebody stuff.