First, God no, I don't think she is responsible for my happiness or me hers! That is one of the things that has me so confused as to why she blames her level of Unhappiness on her "bad marriage", like if you have a "Good marriage" you automatically are "happy".
As for depression, believe me, I read so much about depression back when my W was diagnosed the first time, I became an expert. Problem is no one really knows how or why anyone becomes depressed. Chemical imbalance in the brain? Childhood trauma? Genetic predisposition? I watched her get so low I would leave for work in the AM and she hadn't moved from the chair she was in when I got back 12 hours later. Believe me I didn't DEPEND on her for anything since she couldn't depend on herself!
No Marriage doesn't look like that to me. My parents have been married for close to 60 years. They do not depend on each other for their self-worth and I don't depend on my wife for mine. I will say that while we have kids that depend on us, I do expect my wife and their mother to be a good parent. I expect my wife to not, after 20 years suddenly change priorities and say personal happiness comes before not only what's best for our marriage but what's best for the FAMILY.
As for still trying "all the wrong things" the only reason they were the "wrong things" is because she is having a MLC. The things I did were reasonable if I had been dealing with someone who was in their right mind. Yes, I don't think my W is in her right mind. People who are thinking normally do not "forget" important responsibilities. They do not go from one extreme in the way they think and feel about what is right and wrong to the other in the blink of an eye. As for still trying the wrong things, well considering I'm not trying anything but giving her as much space as possible, I don't see how I can still be doing anything "wrong".
As for not really knowing how she felt in the past or what she valued, you couldn't be more wrong. She was greatly affected by her childhood. She has had trust issues for many years and tested me in many ways before we got married. Before we got married we talked in great detail about what we each valued and expected from our partners. The number one thing that she had to know that I agreed with was that you don't go into marriage thinking that divorce is EVER a possibility. She said doing that pretty much insures that at some point when your going through a hard time, you will end up divorced. Divorce was for 'weak' people who refuse to work out problems. She also has, until now, always said that "love' was a verb, not a noun. It's something you DO, not something you FEEL. She was saying just this all the way up until she started down her MLC path. She was a stay at home mother by her choice. I didn't try and get her to do it nor did I try and stop her. It was important to HER and while it meant less money, I backed what she wanted. I have supported her in whatever she felt she wanted to do from BEFORE we were married. When she wanted to finish college before she married, I told her she could live with me, go to school full time and when she was done, we could marry. I never thought of it as sacrifice, I was happy to help her reach her dream.
I have supported her in every way I knew how for 25 years. Whether it was something I "agreed" with, was my way or hers, I have given her my support. As for fighting her on what SHE believes NOW, well it's up to her how she wants to live her life BUT when it comes to the kids I can not and will not support the attitude that "We all hurt our kids, they'll get over it"! I can't support the attitude that her "happiness" at this moment is more important than what is best for our kids and their lives now and in the future. I won't support the attitude that our marriage is just "bad" and that she doesn't need to try when it would just be easier to divorce and go our separate ways, damn how it affects the kids, me or even her!I know that I can't change her mind but I also will not be 'supportive" of it! I may need to hold my tongue and let her find out on her own that this attitude doesn't lead to "happiness" but I'll be damned if I support her doing it!
As for being "controlling". I have no idea how I could have been LESS controlling! When I worked and she stayed home with the kids, it was as equals. I never stopped her from doing anything she wanted. We moved into the house SHE wanted. Bought the furniture she wanted. Went where she wanted to go. If anything, I gave her way too much control, control she really didn't want at the time.
As for getting in the way of her self esteem or being "critical" in how I supported her. Unless saying how proud I was of her or how much we all appreciate her is "criticism", unless when she would say how fat she was (she wasn't!) and me saying how I wish she could see herself the way I see her and how beautiful I thought she was is "criticism", standing up for her when her father would put her down saying how embarrassed he was to have to tell his friends his daughter was "nothing" because she was a stay at home mother, than no I don't see that. I'm sure I wasn't always perfect, no one is. But I have tried all my life to be the best husband I could. Her issues go back to her childhood and her and her fathers relationship (or lack there of). I really don't think that it is just coincidence that her first depression started after her father who didn't care about her and was openly hostile to her because she was "nothing" when she was a stay at home mom, suddenly told her he wanted to make up for all the bad things he did (his father had just died) but only her, he didn't want to be bothered with her husband or kids. That he is and has been openly pushing her to leave her family so she can be "somebody" for the last 7 years and the fact that he is the only person telling her that she is doing the right thing now isn't part of this. The fact that he had cancer and she is afraid that time is running out for her to have a "good" relationship with him isn't part of this as well. Of course it is.
Mach, sometimes and I think many times in fact, the LBS has very little to do with WAS's MLC. If I thought I was responsible for making my W happy, I'd be stepping out of the picture and saying "Oh, well. I guess I just couldn't do my job and make her happy". If I wasn't certain that what she is thinking is the big "answer" to all her life's unhappiness, throwing away 20 years of marriage and ripping her family apart ISN'T the answer, I would support her and just go on and start over with someone new. I have seen this on other marriage sites. I MUST have done SOMETHING to cause her to do this. I was controlling or I am rigid and don't like it when things don't go exactly MY way. No Mach. Even my W says that I've been a great husband and father at times. She just wants to be happy and she thinks that if she is on her own, in control of EVERY part of her life she will find this. The fact that at the same time it's exactly the thing her dad wants her to do, that the man who didn't even bother to tell her he was getting married, let alone invite her (her grandfather had to tell her, after the fact)because, well he just didn't care, is cheering her on and telling her how "proud" it makes him that she is "growing" into the kind of person he can be proud of is a big part as well.
If she is taking things out of the "box" and trying them on and she decides that the things that she needs to be happy include her putting her family below her job, her friends, her "fun", if sheding me and her kids from her life really makes her "happy", if the new person she decides to be is this person who is acting like they are 20 not 47, then maybe I did marry the wrong person. But, I really think that once she gets thru the tunnel, once she tries on all the new and "shiny" "things" and none of them bring her the lasting happiness she craves, she will come back to be more like the person she was. I know she will NEVER be that person again, anymore than I can ever be the person I was before all this started but I believe at some point she will understand that she is looking in all the wrong places for what she wants. Hell, if I wanted to believe that all the MLC spouses out there are just doing the thing they think is right and us LBSers are just plain wrong to just not step aside and say "Oh, look how great it is that our W/H has finally found the way for them to be happy! You want a divorce? SURE! You want to run off for weeks at a time and neglect the kids and leave me stuck? SURE! You're just doing what YOU need and even if the people who have loved you and counted on you the most (S and kids) have to pay the biggest price for your new found "happiness", that's OK, as long as you're "happy"" then why bother with DBing or standing?
Am I supposed to learn as much as I can about depression just to know? Or to be better able to deal with what my W throws my way? Is trying to understand trying to fix? Far from not wanting my opinion on MOST things she depends on me still in many ways. I have noticed now that she knows that I'm not just saying something nice to her to get something from her (since she has made it clear she has nothing to give)although I never did that but she may have thought I did, she can accept compliments from me when deserved without having to tell me how wrong I am (and no, I'm not fawning over her. I only give my opinion when asked).
I know she is in pain. I know that she is looking for ways to "feel" better about herself, just like all MLCers do. I know she is depressed/anxious and wants it to stop so badly she will try anything and everything until she finds what works. I know she must go through this process alone. That doesn't mean I have to like it, agree with the things she does or support those things that damage her family, me, what we've worked for the last 20 years or herself.
Wow. I have, at one time or another written very a similar story amigo. I feel for ya.
Quote:
But, I really think that once she gets thru the tunnel, once she tries on all the new and "shiny" "things" and none of them bring her the lasting happiness she craves, she will come back to be more like the person she was.
If it helps, I'm 6-7 years past BD and as recently as last night, I see no change in her attitude or the attitude of OM (H now). She is still trying to create drama, anger, angst, etc. He's trying to cause some of that as well, and at one point I heard much of what you're saying you've heard. I have a similar personality as yours from what you describe.
My point? She might at some point figure things out. She might. But it's not likely that will happen in your lifetime or at least during the part of your lifetime where you still care.
AJ
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter" MLK Put the glass down... "Yesterday I was clever so I wanted to change the world Today I am wise, so I am changing myself."
Thanks Wonka. You having been thru your own MLC really helps us get a better view of what's up with the MLC S. The thing is, I'm really understanding that she needs the pain to stop. I tried so hard to be there for her when she was depressed, I thought of it like any other illness, I wouldn't leave her if she had cancer or be angry because of the way she dealt with it, why would I do that with her depression. When she has been most open she has told me she is just so afraid of withdrawing into herself again. If she is in control of every part of her life, like before she was married (and no kids)maybe she can avoid going "dark". That she is afraid I will "allow" her to withdraw by being there for her to take up the slack. Another way to blame something outside of herself I suppose but eye opening.
I know she is confused and looking for direction. There are times when I know even she isn't sure it is me that is the problem but she must try changing her life and said "divorcing you is the biggest change I can think of". I know she looks so hard for reasons that I am the cause and if you look hard enough, you can always find bad, no matter how much good is there as well. I'm sure like I feel with my W, Mrs. Wonka probably saw your pain and wanted it to stop as much as you did at the time. My W has said she tried so many things, being a mother full time, going back to work, losing weight, etc. and nothing helped her feel better, now she wants to see if being on her own is what will work.
It would be easier if that didn't mean so much pain for so many others like our kids. If only she could take the freedom and space I have tried so hard to give her and not have to run away and leave it all behind totally before she looked inward. I guess as I've given her more and more space and still she isn't "happy" she needs to cut the final ties before she will look for another reason and that is sad. I know I can't fix her, really and I have stopped trying. All I can do now is keep faith that, in the end, my W will come out of this whole and integrated, minus the pain and depression. Hopefully then we can have a life together that is better than the one we would have had if she hadn't go through the process.
Thanks for taking the time to post. It's appreciated!
Thanks TL! I'm trying so hard to understand as much as possible. I even can see why my W is going through this having the awful childhood she did. Of course, that's cold solace when you are the one that must bear the brunt of the anger and pain when you are the person who most loved and cared for them in the past. Your sitch moved so fast and I have great hope that maybe your H will slow down enough and see that you are still having a life of your own and want that part of his back. If that does ever happen you will be the one who decides if HE is allowed back into the new life you are making for yourself! Stay strong! You are an inspiration to all us LBSers out there spinning away!
Hi Mach1, As much as we all like to think we are our own person we do depend on a very few select few people in our lives. For me the number one was my wife. To watch the person I've known go away and be replaced by this alien is rather confusing. I will say when my W went into her depression around 7 years ago, I lost a big part of myself. I had to take over so much of the day to day and still go out and make a living and my world became smaller for sure.[/qoute]
Then a few minutes later you post this...
[quote=Matt165]First, God no, I don't think she is responsible for my happiness or me hers!
So which is it?
AJM said he could have written your story.
Guess what?
Most of us here could.
Personally, I married someone who didn't believe in divorce.
Until he did.
I married someone who said I was a good W.
Until he didn't.
I married someone who wanted to be and was a dedicated father.
Until that changed.
You asked if you should learn about depression. You asked if trying to understand is trying to fix.
Yes it is something that you should learn about. It is trying to understand but it can also be trying to fix depending on what you do with that understanding.
Reality...you weren't the perfect H. I wasn't the perfect W. There is no perfect in this world.
Odds are you were/are, or appeared to be controlling in some instances. We all have that tendency.
And while MLC happens and it isn't something that we created or caused, the fact that we weren't perfect in our M, gives some validity to the stuff that they use for reasons as to wanting to leave the marriage.
Those are things we can change. Those are the things we can do something about so IF they do come out of the fog and choose to return, the issues that were in the M are not there anymore.
You have anger that is understandable.
At your W for not meeting your expectations.
At your FIL for returning, interferring, and for basically being the cause of what your W is going through now.
You have to deal with that anger and let it go if you are to have any real hope that your W will return to you. Because one of the biggest things that keeps them from coming back is the fear of the fallout from what they have done.
Read more. Learn more. And drop the defensiveness.
You have a long way to go in this process.
"Acceptance doesn't mean resignation. It means understanding that something is what it is and there's got to be a way through it."--Michael J. Fox
The difference here, is that you feel attacked, and all I am doing, is trying to get a more clear picture of your history...
We only know, what you have shared. So we are only hearing your side of things. There are usually 3 sides to every story. There is yours, hers, and somewhere in the middle, is where the truth lies....
Right now, you are what I would call, the Martyr stage of this. You are seeing only the good things, and you will defend them to the death. You are still wearing the rose colored glasses that everything was perfect. And ya know ? That is fine for now.
You have been charged with all of the bad in the relationship lately, and you are fighting like mad to remember the good too. It is normal for this to happen, especially early on.
What you read from me probably made you angry, like you felt that burn go up the back of your neck, like I was attacking you. Probably thought to yourself, how dare he say that, or maybe even....how did he know that ?
Like AJ and Cat have said...we have ALL been there...
We have all worn similar shoes as you are wearing now. Heard the same things, felt the same feelings, thought the same thoughts.....
I too, married a girl that was against Divorce, was a wonderful Mother, and said I was a wonderful Husband...
Right until she changed her mind about it all...
Did I blame her for this ???
Absolutely...
Did I blame her MLC ???
Her Father for dying on her when she was young ???
Her Mother for being absent after that because she was dealing with her own grief ???
Absolutely I did...
What I failed to do, was to be honest about things, and really take a look at my role in this.
You say that you supported her, and I really believe that you did...
Yet I really feel that you probably supported her the way that YOU wanted to support her, and not in the way that she needed support....
And that is a fairly common occurrence in most relationships...
We lose track of what is real, and we act on perception. We lose communication, and we THINK that we know what or spouse is saying to us.
That anger, or burn up your neck ???
When that happens, those are the things that you do not like about yourself. Those are the things that you should look at really close, and decide if you really like about yourself...
And yes, you should study about depression, you should learn about MLC, and you should read all that you can to help you through this...
Yet you learn about it for YOUR benefit, and YOUR knowledge, not to teach her anything, or try to fix anything...
IF your spouse is really MLC....
Then this is a LOOOOONGGGG road for you. Nothing started overnight, and it will not end overnight.
This is a process for you, as well as it is for her....
You are gonna have to pace yourself for this marathon if you plan to make it out the other side in tact....
And you are really gonna have to develop some thicker skin on you...
If I can fire you up that much, I can't imagine what your pretty little MLCer will do to you, once the real venom starts flowing from her....
Thanks cat, I do get your points and they are valid. The first part of your post though, when I say my world got smaller after she first was depressed, that's because of the added responsibility I had. Because of the fact that I was now pretty much a single parent because she was always too tired, I lost touch with friends as I no longer had time for them. Not that because she was unhappy, I was. Having a depressed S means you can no longer count on them to do their part. I had to take care of two young girls, 4 dogs, a house, make a living, etc. This left little time for "fun" or outside relationships. This is what I meant by my world becoming "smaller". Someone had to do these things and I was the only one available. I wasn't going to let my kids suffer any more than they already were due to the fact that their mother was "absent" or angry or crying over something only she knew what.
For the first 6 months after B-day, all I did was try and "fix" the things about myself that my wife was saying were the things that bothered her about me and our marriage. As each one of those things fell away, she came up with new ones. Or said "I shouldn't have had to ask for a divorce for you to change. It's too late". This was when I realized it wasn't about me or our marriage. Sure, no marriage is perfect. No S is perfect. We're human, we make mistakes. Mine was trying to get my wife to engage with me and the kids again and couldn't understand why she had no interest in us.
I know there are many things about myself I need to work on. I'm doing that and making progress. My wife picked the worse time in my life she could to go thru this (I understand, she didn't actually choose to go thru this don't get me wrong) the company I had worked for for 10+ years closed without warning. I had just had a vasectomy I didn't want after she assured me she had zero thoughts of divorce. I had just started a new company knowing it would take all I had to make it work and I would need her help to make it. Then came B-day! A big part of my anger comes from this timing.
I'm trying to remember my W is in pain. She is just trying to make that pain go away but the awful things she says and does "feel" so personal at times but I'm learning how to let it go better every day. Thanks cat. I appreciate your post.
Hi everyone. Been an all around bad day and it's only 12:30! W is in an awful mood because my parents are coming in a couple weeks and she wants to clean. It would have helped if she hasn't stopped doing 95% of the housework over the last few YEARS and as hard as I try, I can't keep up on my own.
I had planned on doing some GAL tonight but I just found out my daughters prom is tonight and her boyfriend is out of town so she is going with a GF and needs a ride. Of course, my wife will not even consider doing it. That's ok, don't have the money anyway. Also, we are all going to go visit her grandmother in the new nursing home one of the things my W insists on doing with me because she wants to hide the fact of her wanting out from her family, especially her GM (although with her mind so far gone now she wouldn't remember even if she were told!).
Really wanted to GAL tonight but daughter comes first. I guess maybe telling my W SHE needs to get her there and back as I'm busy would be a huge 180 but all that would do is put my daughter in the middle of my W's sh$& storm and I don't want to do that. W also is spending money we don't have after I told her not to and now wants me to make her car payment which is late because of her spending when we didn't have the funds and I can't pay it as we don't have the money! She could use the money she hid away but won't consider doing THAT! That's HER money, even though it came out of our joint account. The selfishness of the MLCer is so amazing!
So off to W's GM's with the kids. It's going to be a long weekend and I'm going to need to detach more than ever!
Hey, good to hear from you. That's exactly how I got through my W's first depression (started 7 years ago, ended after 3.5 years if it ever really did end). Would I let her antics get to me if she were suffering from cancer and chose this way to deal with it? NO! Same thing I'm trying to do now. Harder though as this feels so personal. Like we spouses just aren't worthy or worse we're so bad we caused their pain.
Keep the faith. We all will get through this one way or another.
