Have I any hope...?

[zew]

The sort of response I was looking for ie someone to tell me where I am going right or wrong.

You will get that advice here. Please consider it. Often, it will seem the opposite of what you think you should do.

She definitely knows I'm an attentive dad. She told me this when splitting with me... that I was a great husband and dad. But she obviously wants/needs more.

When she talks to you, listen for the clues as to what she thinks is missing. If you think there is something in what she says that you think would make you a better person, regardless of whether you ever R, then you should plan to make the changes. For you, not for her.

If I do stay tonight (and I'm obviously going against your good advice if I do) I want her to the see the changes I have made. And I want to reiterate that I have made changes for ME.

You shouldn't be rescuing her. She has chosen to leave; there are consequences; it's not your job to soften them. Do not talk about your changes. She will resent it because you are only making them now, after "ruining her life". And whatever you do, don't tell her you made changes for you, because that's just you being selfish. And it's all about her in her mind right now. Now is not your moment. Hate to say this, but you will be at this for months and months. This will be hard, and painfully slow. Make your changes for you. Quietly. Patiently. She'll notice, but won't care for a long time. And you will come to realize that since you are making the changes for you, that it becomes less important that she validate or recognize them.

Stop talking about you and your changes. Communicate with actions only.

You must become a model patience and stability. You are working on your long term life plan. You will not be driven by emotional reaction to her ever changing moods. Her spiders do not figure into your plan, not even a little bit.

[bashy]

Thanks zew. Really appreciate it. We chatted a bit today and she is asking have I been out much then hit me with "So have you met any women yet?" She said it with a smile - like a 'she smiles, making me smile' kind of thing, if that makes sense.
I've no idea why she asked it but I just said, that I've been out with a few friends just having a good time with them.
God, I'm awful at playing things cool and trying not to care.
But I suppose I've come a long way from begging, pleading etc

[zew]

I've no idea why she asked it but I just said, that I've been out with a few friends just having a good time with them.

Typically, the WAW needs to know that you are still around as a fallback in case her experimental new life situations don't work out for her. If you get too comfortable on your own, she may get nervous.

Your answer was perfect. Keep some mystery there, after all, it's you enjoying your life and she has chosen to remove herself from that for now. Your objective is to make yourself understand (very hard, and will take work on yourself) that you will be able to survive without W. When you have convinced yourself, she will also detect that, and may sense some loss.

[bashy]

Thank you again zew. I haven't been forthcoming at all about what I'm doing although she knows I continue at the gym which I've been doing for nearly 3 years. I am beginning to realise I can move on but it's finding that balance of knowing that and not seeming too aloof. Perhaps that's were I'm going wrong.

[25yearsmlc]

I've no idea why she asked it but I just said, that I've been out with a few friends just having a good time with them.

Typically, the WAW needs to know that you are still around as a fallback in case her experimental new life situations don't work out for her. If you get too comfortable on your own, she may get nervous.

To me, this^^ is ALL more mind reading. If she asks where you are going, this is an OPPORTUNITY to show the GAL without pointing it out. You can keep some mystery but don't be rude. It's NOT a bad sign that she asked, it might be positive, it might mean nothing. So don't give it a thought. But never be rude or curt or point out the obvious "I don't know where YOU are going and therefore you don't get to know where I am going"...sounds petty and punitive.

Also, it's NOT your job to "show her the consequences" of her choices OR to "teach her a lesson". LIFE does that. It's not a spouses job to be a therapist either, but yes we are to be their friends...not buddies, I mean when together you should be a friend.

Another thing my DB coach said that freaked me out at first, was to "listen like a lover" as in NO judgement and no advice...validate and show concern. It works. And in the end, DBing is about doing what works.

Your answer was perfect. Keep some mystery there, after all, it's you enjoying your life and she has chosen to remove herself from that for now. Your objective is to make yourself understand (very hard, and will take work on yourself) that you will be able to survive without W. When you have convinced yourself, she will also detect that, and may sense some loss.

I don't think you're "wrong" to go over there if she has a phobia about spiders. Obviously it can't be a habit but one visit, does not a habit make.

Besides, Would you prefer she ask someone else? (That IS an option you may Not want her to consider, after all)....

but I can't see backing out now and not looking unreliable. So go, but either treat it light heartedly with some humor (and your d is watching too, so let her see you as a hero. But with a sense of humor...and note, How our children see their fathers DEFINITELY affects how mothers see them.)

OR maybe buy her one of those clear "bug catchers" that [censored] them up and then she can empty the bug/spiders into a toilet. When my h left me with our d's still at home, WE had one, thank God b/c we USED that a lot. I think we got it at Bed/Bath & Beyond...(I need another one for when h isn't around b/c ours broke...probably from over use).

Do you feel clearer about your path? And btw, if I recall correctly, one thing you two were missing was couple time and you both worked at odd "missing each other" hours...did I get that right? It's easy to confuse other situations but when you put info into your signature block, it really helps us recall in just two seconds...

Assuming that was the main issue, then you need to demonstrate having MORE "free for fun" time now. A schedule change at work, and or, the more you do something with your friends OR NEW Friends are great to have now, no one reminds you of your situation and you get stimulated in different ways and it brings out other qualities in you too...ALSO do things with your d, one on one with her)...the more you spend time with your d, the better for you both AND the more your w will note that you made an actual tangible change...for the better.

Sign up for a class one night a week or one weekend a month. Volunteer somewhere, DO SOMETHING NEW and different...it will show change on your end.
Say nothing of it, UNLESS your w asks. Then be brief and answer her, and move along to another topic so it won't look as if you are watching for her reaction. Plus, she'll need time to ponder what these things mean. HER FEAR is that if you two reconcile, you will revert to the old ways. Don't gloss over that fear...it's crucial for her to eventually trust that your changes are real and lasting.

As for counseling, of course YOU should be going. For YOU....and yes, She'll notice that YOU went, regardless of whether she is.
Not to mention that she may be getting some counseling and not telling you yet. But Good grief..SHE is not relevant to what you want to work on. Do you get that?

You want to be the best man you can be...how is SHE related to that? She's not. She will be an indirect beneficiary of your improvements, and if you reconcile she'll be a direct beneficiary...but it's NOT about her. It's only about you.

I went to counseling a lot more than my h did... thank GOD I did or I would not have made it. My DB coach was also a Godsend.

So I had my own IC, plus a DB coach (about 15 sessions with her, btw, so it wasn't a one time deal, but a lot of changing my views, over more than a year)...

and I attended a personal growth workshop that I had been to decades earlier for a "refresher course"... and that was SO EXCELLENT, (several other DBers have attended it as well and so far ALL have given it great reviews. Calling it 'life changing" is not an exaggeration.

So anyhow, then when we began piecing, we both attended Retrovaille, which is a weekend retreat for couples in marital crisis. The Catholic church started it, but you do not have to be Catholic to attend (my h isn't) and they have interdenominational ones and there was NO doctrine or "Catholic dogma" in our workshop at all. "Team" Couples told us their stories of their marital woes and most of them had such horrific problems that ours paled in comparison (such as losing a child or facing cancer AND an affair, etc.) They were inspiring.

You may be able to get your w to attend that, "for communication purposes" or to "make things easier on the child", and although it's a bit of a ruse to get her there, it won't hurt. Seriously, it's a good retreat weekend, no matter who you are.

Retrovaille has an impressive record for helping troubled marriages. We went with 24 other couples, 8 of whom were already in the process of divorcing, when they attended. Others were like us, either separated, and or strongly considering ending our marriages.

After 3-4 years, I think 19-20 of the couples are still together, out of 25. Considering how troubled we ALL were when we went, that's pretty remarkable.

The personal growth workshop I attended years ago, and then again more recently, is in Philadelphia now. It used to be on the west coast too, but anyhow, it helps

YOU grow/improve individually and obviously that makes you a better parent, better partner, better worker, better person as a whole. It gives you a lot of clarity and a path towards your goals.

When I first went many years ago, I went without my h. At the time it was mainly b/c we were not sure "we" would like it or that it would be worth it, since it cost money and my h was reluctant, so I went first.

Well, Thank GOD I went alone b/c I had issues with my MIL i would not have raised if my h had been there, among other private matters I would not have shared in front of him....anyhow, I think it's inhibiting to go with a spouse to EE, but I got so much out of it, that h saw this, so HE went a few months later, by himself!

That was not typical of h, at all (we were both in the military and "touchy feely" things did not get discussed much. My boss thought it was hilarious, but he was in reality very supportive).

Anyhow, h saw the changes in me and that made him want to go. (Kind of like how we want your wife to notice YOUR changes, but without you mentioning a tactic you are trying)...just real change.

My h called me during that workshop weekend when he went, and said that the workshop "was the best gift [he] had ever gotten"...

Then later on, we went together, to help the new participants.

That long workshop weekend when we were together there, bonded us so much, so deeply, that even decades later, it was how close we felt THEN, how deeply bonded we felt THEN, that motivated me to DB for so long. I knew we had "it" within us to be that close again...

(BTW, IF you are interested, check out "Essential Experience" in Philadelphia, aka "EE".
It's not Landmark and it's NOT EST, both of which I have attended also. EE was for me, the most profound individual growth experience I've ever had, next to becoming a parent. And I'm a better mother for it, as well. Since many people have gotten lots out of Landmark and or EST, I won't criticize those experiences, or discredit them. I will simply say that for me, Essential Experience was deeper, more profoundly changing, and it did not focus on recruitment.

(Also it's cheaper. OMG considering that I've gone back several times now as a "team" member, basically getting refresher "courses" at no cost, it's very cheap. Over the years that has added up to about 10 long weekends, but only the first one cost me anything. Wow, I just realized that).

Anyhow, I am grateful we had all these resources. And a bit proud of my efforts at utilizing them.

What else are you working on for YOU to become the man you always wanted to become?

[25yearsmlc]

The sort of response I was looking for ie someone to tell me where I am going right or wrong.

You will get that advice here. Please consider it. Often, it will seem the opposite of what you think you should do.

She definitely knows I'm an attentive dad. She told me this when splitting with me... that I was a great husband and dad. But she obviously wants/needs more.

When she talks to you, listen for the clues as to what she thinks is missing. If you think there is something in what she says that you think would make you a better person, regardless of whether you ever R, then you should plan to make the changes. For you, not for her.

If I do stay tonight (and I'm obviously going against your good advice if I do) I want her to the see the changes I have made. And I want to reiterate that I have made changes for ME.

You shouldn't be rescuing her. She has chosen to leave; there are consequences; it's not your job to soften them.

Going over there for her AND THE CHILD is not really rescuing her like paying extra money to cover her new car would be...

Plus, if you refuse to go now, you are 1) unreliable b/c you broke your word; and 2) you will appear punitive.

I can't see how you can back out now, without it being weird AND OR a negative. Just don't keep doing it unless there's a good reason (like she invites you to dinner..., which would be a positive NOT to be blown.

When you do interact with her for whatever reason, see it as an opportunity for her to see the new you WITHOUT you mentioning a thing.


Do not talk about your changes. She will resent it because you are only making them now, after "ruining her life".

mind reading and projecting again. Every situation is different and not all WASs are alike..

And whatever you do, don't tell her you made changes for you, because that's just you being selfish.

I disagree with this^^^. Aside from more mind reading, what reason CAN he give if the changes are not for him? For HER? That's not true change; it's a tactic that won't last...

He can say, IF & ONLY IF SHE COMMENTS, and assuming it's not an insult that she says but merely noting a change in him for the better

thank her for noticing but add that YOU "always meant to work on this" and that you are "glad to be doing it now"...and if she says "AH but too little too late!"

he can say "well, better late than never AND "IF I had it to do over again, there are many things I'd do differently"---this statement shows change on your end, it does not escalate the issues into an argument, it does not make your comments into defensive remarks.

Speak without offending, listen without defending.

And the reality will be unsaid, but it's out there....someone will benefit from YOUR changes with the new improved you.....and if it's not her, then you and -- some OW....will benefit.

That will probably bother her. The idea that my h would again be the man he once was with me, but with some OW, actually motivated me to give him another chance when he wanted to reconcile (at that point I had sort of become the WAS).

Though it may come out as anger, which is not unreasonable when you think of HER point of view, it's still true that you are becoming an improved man.

And since she wanted changes in you to come, how can she not help but wonder if you may have just become the exact man she needs?...and you are the father of her child as well...You want her to second guess her choices!


And it's all about her in her mind right now. Now is not your moment. Hate to say this, but you will be at this for months and months. This will be hard, and painfully slow. Make your changes for you. Quietly. Patiently. She'll notice, but won't care for a long time. And you will come to realize that since you are making the changes for you, that it becomes less important that she validate or recognize them.

Stop talking about you and your changes. Communicate with actions only.

You must become a model patience and stability. You are working on your long term life plan.

^^ makes sense. Have you been talking about your changes? I didn't notice that. But stop it if you were.

You will not be driven by emotional reaction to her ever changing moods. Her spiders do not figure into your plan, not even a little bit.

You can do this. I think there's hope for you guys. Don't rush things. there's a huge downside to taking things too fast or pressuring, whereas there is almost no downside to slowly building a foundation for a long lasting loving marriage.

[zew]

25. I seem to have touched a nerve.

And whatever you do, don't tell her you made changes for you, because that's just you being selfish.

I disagree with this^^^. Aside from more mind reading, what reason CAN he give if the changes are not for him? For HER? That's not true change; it's a tactic that won't last...

What I'm suggesting is that he doesn't want to go and say "Hey look, I've changed, and I did it for me."
At least in my case, that goes down the "Yes, it's all about you" path.
It's better to show change than to proclaim change.

It's a completely different situation if she notices the changes and asks why he did it. Then it would be fine to say he did it for himself.
But that's not how I read the original post.

And yes, if you've committed to spider watch, don't reneg now.

[bashy]

Thank you so much for your advice. It really helps.
So the night went well. I played things close to my chest, didn't follow her around like a lost puppy AND killed the spider when it was spotted the next morning in a manly fashion lol
WAW said to d did she like daddy staying. Then when d was gone WAW asked me in a normal fashion was I happy now, was I now over her and was I no longer upset like I was when I left at New Years. I said yes, things were gd and then left it at that.
I have promised myself I will now get on with things for me - I like the idea of taking guitar lessons and starting yoga. But I also plan on continuing to stay aloof ie no calling on phone unless daughter issues and will say no if she asks me to stay again.
I hope this is me on the right track.

[bashy]

So a bad day today. Got a call from W to have breakfast at horse riding place a good 90 minutes b4 D's lesson. I agreed. Then when we arrived complained she had to go early for a wake for a friend of a friend. Tried to give advice. A big no no. Shouldn't have said anything. She told D she'd see her on horse for just 5 mins. Then asked could I leave D to in laws even though it wasn't my turn. I sighed and said this. Another no no. She complained she'd done a lot of driving favours for me this week. I breathed inwardly and tried to be the better person. Not a problem I said it was just that I had plans after she offered to take D early for me today as I'm away on holiday tomorrow and needed a few things done.
All ok then. However she then decided she couldn't stay for 5 mins to watch D as she wanted to get ready for wake. Again I played it cool but was angry. I feel she makes promises then breaks them. But I said nothing. Anyway. As she left she offered to pick me up from airport next week. I continued to be positive and said Ty.
Soooo. I've now realised that despite my W initiating things this week and us getting on great, I need to go dark properly. It's difficult when you grasp at any time your W seems to be reaching out. Reading the positive outcomes on this site has also gotten my hopes up.
So I'm going to go on holiday and finish the DB book and really take on board all it tells me. I need to be strong. On a positive though, I feel my W is enjoying seeing me otherwise y ring for breakfast plus offer to pick me up next week.
We shall see....

[bashy]

Not sure if I should have done this, but I'm on a holiday with a good mate of mine which I booked when WAW gave me the news of splitting last year.
Anyway, I'm currently reading Michele's DB book wich is great.
However, I'm unable to text my D so sent her a goofy pic of me in my apartment to my wife's email. I debated doing this but wanted my D to see I was thinking of her. So the WAW gets back to me saying her and D laughed, then proceeded to engage in conversation, jokingly, via email. It was all pleasant but nice. But I made sure I was the one that ended the chat. This is another little change I'm proud off. I would have ended up letting the convo. continue until it died out.