Tough love - thanks Sandi. I got DR and finished it about a month ago, so really was doing everything wrong until am month ago. At this point, I will not ask W again about R as that is certainly one of the things that I'd pushing her further away. PA or EA, really does not matter to me - I know that I want to create a new, better R with W. I need to focus on me and kids until the time when she wii hopefully want to re-engage in the R. 2 more months under the same roof until we separate, need to focus on anything other than her so that she leaves wit at least positive thoughts hopefully.
About two months ago we were engaged in a discussion that I thought was going to lead to R talk so since it was late I decided to head to bed. She asked why and I said because I don't want to end up in a R discussion. She got angry and pushed me into the discussion which of course made her more upset.
Keep the 2x4's swinging.
Weekend seems to have actually gone well. I have avoided any discussion of R or anything that might make her feel pressured. It is just damn uncomfortable at the moment.
W is looking a cars as she will need one when she arrives back in U.S. She was speaking in we and talking about our tax return and clearly looking for a response. I simply asked what type she was looking at and avoided discussion of the finances or whether she wants to split the finances so not create an pressure about the R. If she wants my help with the loan, I guess she will ask.
__________ Me - 43 Wife - 41 S's - 12 & 9 Togther - 18 Married - 14 My goal - reconciliation and a better/stronger marriage
Thanks Paul, yes you are learning. I agree with everything you said. I have lived long enough to see the results of the women's lib movement back in the seventy's. A lot of good things may have come from it, but certainly not for family & M.........IMO. B/c I think a lot of men are kind of confused about their role in the M and in the home. I think women are also, plus they try to have babies later in life.......and have big careers. Women are under tremdous stress today b/c they are trying to have it all, but it's too much!
Yes, women complain about the H if he doesn't do his share of housework and child care. I don't know if it causes him to feel less of a man over time, or if she sees him being more feminine. Maybe a little of each. I don't say this to be unflattering to the guys, but there are many threads that have come and gone where men were in the role of traditional homemaker, and had a WAW. What I noticed in those I followed was how the men would talk about how they FEARED the W. if they had only used different words.....but each one used "fear" several times in their posting. That sends red flags up to me! He clearly doesn't feel like the head of his home if he fears his W. It wasn't physical abuse he feared, like some women might fear an abusive man. He feared making her upset with him! And that would lead him to being more passive than ever.
I see where a lot of the women who are the main source of income...become the leader for the H & family. She calls the shots and they do what she says. He won't buck what she wants. He appears like a "nice guy" to everyone else, but he is passive and won't step up and act like a man! Then these same nice guys don't understand why girls fall for the bad boy types. It is b/c she sees him being unafraid and he takes charge of her and other things around him In her eyes, he looks like a form of authority and she likes it. Her judgement may be off, but her natural longing is in tact.
When I first came to the board, there was a lot of talk about the nice guy syndrome, but it is not quite correct. I suppose epends on what you describe as a nice guy. Sometimes, that guy just doesn't stand up for himself or speak out when he should. Hof an not be a take charge man (and most women like take charge men). We womeliars not against nice men. We like manners, and we want our men to be a gentleman. We don't want a man who has no consideration for us, or who is self-centered, etc. It is not the politeness or kindness that's a problem. It is when woman gets horsey and the man doesn't put her in her place........that's the problem! When she makes snide remarks to him, or about him to the kids......and he doesn't call her out on it. It is when he allows her to treat him like a doormat. Any act that shows a hint of disrespect will snowball if he lets it pass. It is when she can treat him like sh!t (or another word....attitude) and he kisses her tail b/c he won't stand up to her. And of course, it is b/c he won't make decisions and it defaults to her. She begins to boss him around and talk down to him, while he continues being just a good ole boy.
Anyway, I didn't mean to repeat myself, but it means a lot that you spoke up and backed me up by sharing your post.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Maybe I should clarify or maybe I am just wrong (and I fully hope and expect to be told so).
The conflict avoidance was certainly a major issue that got us to this point. Only in the last three months have I realized that. When I speak of 180s, at this point I am mostly trying to avoid discussion of R with her, anything that looks like begging or pleading, any outward emotions (yes, she still does or says things that will trigger some tears on my part, but I am careful to make sure she is unaware).
There is no doubt in my mind we are separating in 2 months when she returns to the US. At this point, I will also return a month later as I do not want to be away from kids and I feel like I need to be at least in some proximity for if she decides to re-engage in R (difficult to do from an ocean away). I am trying not to engage in conversations with her about how long of a lease she is getting (she would take that as pressure) or about splitting finances (again pressure, but will address if she brings it up.
Weekend was ok in that there were no "blow ups" and I avoided any R talk. Have noticed since being informed that OM is out of picture that she is not always connected to iPhone. So far, in as much as I can tell, there has been no contact with OM - but I also realize that it could change back in an instant. I would really like to know what promoted this decision and am struggling with not asking.
I am probably naive, but I still have an internal battle over whether W was being truthful or not about there not actually being a PA (at least a PA that involved sex as she did tell me that they kissed and fooled around a little). W has always been brutally honest. Her story to me, friends and co-workers has always been consistent - which makes we at least want to believe her (go ahead and call irrational or naive - I know). An IC told me that I had to decide whether I could live with never really knowing what the truth was, because only W knows 100%.
So 180's I need to do at the moment are: - no R talk at all (this is a 180 from point of BD) - no begging, pleading or emotional outbursts - GAL - make decisions as appropriate - work to understand that some conflict is ok
When the physical separation takes place should I move from just the 180s to LRT or continue with 180s, especially GAL and do things on weekends as a family as she has indicated she wants to do? Obviously, once physical separation begins I am going to need some boundaries.
Wish I could have had the DR book on hand when BD back in October. I could have done so many things differently and might be in a much better place than right now. I still remain hopeful, but am trying to let go of expectations - does that make sense?
__________ Me - 43 Wife - 41 S's - 12 & 9 Togther - 18 Married - 14 My goal - reconciliation and a better/stronger marriage
"When I first came to the board, there was a lot of talk about the nice guy syndrome, but it is not quite correct. I suppose epends on what you describe as a nice guy. Sometimes, that guy just doesn't stand up for himself or speak out when he should. Hof an not be a take charge man (and most women like take charge men). We womeliars not against nice men. We like manners, and we want our men to be a gentleman. We don't want a man who has no consideration for us, or who is self-centered, etc. It is not the politeness or kindness that's a problem. It is when woman gets horsey and the man doesn't put her in her place........that's the problem! When she makes snide remarks to him, or about him to the kids......and he doesn't call her out on it. It is when he allows her to treat him like a doormat. Any act that shows a hint of disrespect will snowball if he lets it pass. It is when she can treat him like sh!t (or another word....attitude) and he kisses her tail b/c he won't stand up to her. And of course, it is b/c he won't make decisions and it defaults to her. She begins to boss him around and talk down to him, while he continues being just a good ole boy."
Mannnn, Sandi hit it with this^^^^^
That was me. My exw makes lots of money and we always did what she wanted. She never asked prior to deciding anything. She would run it by me when it was all said and done, as if I had any say. The FEAR is what got to me. The fear of having to fend for myself and take care of the bills. Not sure why since I paid all the bills. The irrational beliefs that we created can paralyze you. The difference is that I would hold it in until I exploded. So I came across as the Angry one.
Good post Sandi....
M 53 D 20 Separated 6/22/11 moved out 10/24 Together 26 yrs Married 16 W Filed for D 7/21/11 Served 9/6/11 D final 8/28/12
“Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be.”
So apparently W told her brother about the separation in the last few days and they had some type of argument over it. W accused me essentially of talking to her brother and it is obvious that she thinks I told him about the A - which I absolutely did not. Her brother and I are close and the last time we talked, when she did not go with the family for xmas I simply said we were struggling after the year apart. I don't know what their conversation was.
She was pissed at me and by an hour later I felt like I had to defend myself. I went to her room and said I need to say something to you, you don't have to respond and I don't want to have a conversation about the R. I told her very simply what her brother and I discussed and was very clear that it went no further and that if she thought I had told him or any of her family about the A she was mistaken.
I kept it short and to the point and then walked away. Not sure if I should have done it or not, but I felt like I had to stand up for myself with this.
__________ Me - 43 Wife - 41 S's - 12 & 9 Togther - 18 Married - 14 My goal - reconciliation and a better/stronger marriage
Sandi2 - why LRT vice continued 180? We are still living in the same house and ahve the kids. We also have to work together. I am not questioning your advice (which is obviously highly respected on the forum), just looking for the why you feel that way vice continued 180.
When I have previously applied 180 and not pressured her about the R by talking about us, she has seemed to draw closer (very small things like comments, etc).
Sorry for asking, I am just a person that always want to know why something works or should be done as opposed to just doing it blindly. And obviously, I have no expertise or knowledge in this area.
W called me to go to lunch today so we did since she initiated. She also said she wants to go somewhere for the upcoming long weekend together as a family.
__________ Me - 43 Wife - 41 S's - 12 & 9 Togther - 18 Married - 14 My goal - reconciliation and a better/stronger marriage
A pretty good day, W asked for help with a work project and when I finished with an emailed it back she called and said " you rock, you're the best". That mad me feel really good although I know it shouldn't - it was a glimpse of how she used to be.
W also officially broke her position so no turning back for her with returning to th US. When I saw her position officially listed as available it hit me hard, not sure why as it is not a surprise at this point.
Still seems to be no contact with OM. Continuing to work on detaching and letting go of expectations. Also still working 180s.
Still waiting to see if we are traveling for the 4 day weekend - need visas, vehicle insurance for the other country and security escorts to line up still. We would be staying with good friends. It would be good to get away from our current craphole location, but I worry about it being awkward with our friends who don't know what is going on.
__________ Me - 43 Wife - 41 S's - 12 & 9 Togther - 18 Married - 14 My goal - reconciliation and a better/stronger marriage
