She left - 3

[gogofo]

Previous thread

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2444869&page=1

Wonka why a public place? We have dinners at each other's houses so it would be at my house where we would talk not a restaurant.

I am surprisingly not as upset as I was when I first found it. I am trying to figure out if it really makes a difference to me or not.

I think I will probably hand her the book and ask if she has anything she wants to say to me. I will play it by ear after that. If she says nothing happened I will have to decide if I trust it as the truth or not. If she says there was an A I will have to decide if I believe if it has been terminated. If it is ongoing I will have to cut contact until it is over.

I am trying to figure out if she could have had or is having an A. With her saying she doesn't know if she trusts me and figuring she will eventually forgive me, it seems like she has been faithful. I know there were the beginnings of an EA which I have dealt with, but I don't know if it is ongoing or ever progressed.

The way she threatened me in the past gave me full confidence in her never cheating on me. My heart hopes it is someone overreacting to rumors.

[unbidden]

Not to be a buzz kill, but the comments in the book did not sound like there had been no PA. Don't deceive yourself. But, in the end it may not matter..... It's up to you.

[gogofo]

I know, I feel the same way when I read it. I know some of the accusations that have flown at her job in the past about others that were unfounded. I would think that with all the writing they would have said "you f@$ked my husband".

I am probably telling myself a lie by not thinking she had an A. But without all or any facts I am going to act "as if".

[unbidden]

I get it, just trying to be realistic for you, Hang in there. Who knows what really happened . . .

[gogofo]

Only she does. Thanks for keeping me grounded though.

I must be getting better at detachment because I am having a pretty good night.

Funny thing is that I don't know if it would be a deal breaker or not. I guess if I get the details I will be able to decide.

[gogofo]

Would asking for the truth and making her swear on our children be out of line?

[ye21]

Gogofo as you told me many times, take your time and ask yourself, would the questioning be something that will help you at the end?

I am going to expose 2 points, lets imagine that its true that she had an affair, and you confront her, there are a few possibilities, the 1st one is that she might be feeling guilty already about this and when you ask her she shuts down completely and stops communicating with you...

The 2nd its that she might break down and confess you the affair, feel guilty about it and stop her "realization" process and decide to separate ways longer because the guiltiness doesnt allow her to be with you at this point.

Both of those outcomes will affect the actions you took and you will probably have to start again from zero in your recovery, remove your resentments and well we dont know how you that will really affect you...

And the option that I am inclining towards, keep giving her time and space for "HER" to realize what she has done, face consequences because she realizes she has to face them not due to your reaction, how do you accomplish this? Well, dont make a show out of this, give her the book and very calm and cool tell her: hey the other day I found this book on the door.... And STFU and keep going with your life...
This might sound crazy but if she is having an affair, your reaction of indiference will confuse her and make her think, did he see what the book says? And it will create mistery and wondering if you definetly move on, what at the end will put her in the position of reevaluating her relationship with you and maybe end the affair, this is written in Sandi rules remember?

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore! This turns the spouse completely off! So dont ask her, let her reach the realization point... Of course having your boundaries but she at this point doesnt have to hear them.

10.Do not spy on spouse by checking emails, phone bills, etc. (Not good for you and will make matters worse.)
At this state of mind she is, she will considering this spying and a violation of her privacy...waw justify always their mistakes by blaming you..


17.You need to make your partner think that you have had an
awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to
move on with your life, with or without your spouse.

18.Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait
to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!) This is important! If you do, then you have blown it.

19.No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. This can confuse some of them b/c it is not what they expected. Show your spouse someone he/she would want to be around all the time, somebody that can be attractive and fun to be with. That somebody is you! Don't overkill in your attempts to outshine another person your spouse may be having an A with (if there is OP in the picture) to the point of looking like your attempts are "fake" b/c your spouse will see through all of that.

This is the hardest part Gogofo, but you have to be strong, if she is not in an affair all this might shoot you right in the face, once she feels that you are not judging her for her mistakes and that she is safe around you, she will be the one telling you if she had an affair, at that point its when you tell her your boundaries, not before that, you had worked really hard on yourself and the goal its to R, keep calm, be cool and remember this rule:

24.Be patient......very, very patient. Give your spouse space and time. When you pull back, it will draw them towards you. It feels opposite of what you want to do, but it works!

She is being showing a little advance towards feeling safest with you, dont let your anger change that.

[Positivespin]

Go-

WHAT DOES YOUR GUT SAY????- Its right.

Is it a game ender? decide that now- It will keep you from doing something stupid when you confirm.

Do not ask her....if its true you will begin to start to see some real bad acting on her part as she begins to cover tracks.

AND.....whatever happens- you must remain in control....you will be alright

[Wonka]

GoFo,

In a public place, there's no way that your spouse would be out of control. She would need to realize that she's under microscope with other eyes around so she may adjust her behavior accordingly.

In regard to your thought that maybe rumors are just rumors, I am going to say that 99.9% of WAS here have OM/OW in the picture. It is highly likely that W is indeed having an A with someone. This brings me to the next point.

Would asking for the truth and making her swear on our children be out of line?

Don't act silly. Just calmly show her the book and ask if she had something to say about it. Quietly listen. Then say, "W, you know, we cannot be having any dinners or any joint activities going forward as I am not willing to have a third party in the M. You need to figure this out yourself."

With her saying she doesn't know if she trusts me and figuring she will eventually forgive me,

Simply say, "I am sorry that you feel this way. I am here if you wish to talk." The forgiveness part is up to her.

Validate, validate...it is how W is feeling at the moment. Don't try to discount them or argue back with her.

[Wonka]

And act like John Wayne, Bogie, or Clark Cable when talking with your W. Take your pick. Cool, calm, and collected.

[ye21]

Wonka I have to disagree with you, I wish a WAW like Sandi will stop by around here, for what you can see in many WAW sitchs the Waw never reacted the way expected towards the LBH confronting the affair, they try to hide their tracks and deny everything completelly.

In a public place, there's no way that your spouse would be out of control. She would need to realize that she's under microscope with other eyes around so she may adjust her behavior accordingly.

This is mind reading and a wish of what it would happens, she can react completelly normal by telling him, you are crazy, now its me the one who dont trust you! Leave me alone, confronting a WAW I believe for whats being said (while they are not leaving in the same roof) just make things more complicated.

In regard to your thought that maybe rumors are just rumors, I am going to say that 99.9% of WAS here have OM/OW in the picture. It is highly likely that W is indeed having an A with someone. This brings me to the next point.

This is not demonstrated and untill not demonstrated better to relax on this, accussing his W of this when it might not be true its judging or pre judging and thats the way to lead to irrefutable mistakes.

Even if you dont like it Gogofo she is not living as a married woman now, and you cant assume or confront her, you can set boundaries meanwhile like showing yourself less available, but taking her inventory its very risky and it might cause troubles in the situation you dont need right now.

[ye21]

GO you can see here one more case of a WAW deniying the affair and how Sandi adices the user:

Haven't we been through this once before, or was that someone else? Okay, so....don't do it. To me, you are not only trying to control, but you are trying to force her to admit the A and to stop the A. That's what it boils down to, anyway. Nobody can blame you for feeling like you do, however, it just won't work on her.

It is really driving you crazy that she continues to deny the A. You keep thinking of ways to try to squeeze it out of her, but it all sounds the same to me.

If I were the WAW and you presented that speech to me, I would let you know very quickly that I had not asked you to work with me, forgive me, understand me, or believe me. I am not interested in how sorry you may feel now.....or how willing you are to find solutions to make this M better. I am not hard of hearing or senile, and I don't have to have your consent or blessings on what I choose to do. You are not my father nor my Pastor, so stop preaching.

This won't do anything but start another argument, Zew. I have read many similar posts from other LBH's who try to make the W end the A and work on the M. Unfortunately, it just doesn't work this way.
_________________________
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!

[Wonka]

Ye,

You misread or misinterpreted my post completely.

I did not suggest that he confront W about her A. Simply said to ask her about the book's comments and listen to what she had to say about it. This is what most people would do if they had something like that out in their front porch. I'd want to know what that's all about and hear their side.

Confronting and asking a simple question are two completely separate things, Ye.

As for A, I've been around the boards long enough to know that the vast majority of WASes have OW/OM in the picture. It is not mindreading at all, but comes with DB experience. What I am doing here is preparing GoFo for the real possibility that his W is indeed in an A. It is always best to be prepared than look silly when talking with a WAS, right?

[Wonka]

GO you can see here one more case of a WAW deniying the affair and how Sandi adices the user:

Haven't we been through this once before, or was that someone else? Okay, so....don't do it. To me, you are not only trying to control, but you are trying to force her to admit the A and to stop the A. That's what it boils down to, anyway. Nobody can blame you for feeling like you do, however, it just won't work on her.

It is really driving you crazy that she continues to deny the A. You keep thinking of ways to try to squeeze it out of her, but it all sounds the same to me.

If I were the WAW and you presented that speech to me, I would let you know very quickly that I had not asked you to work with me, forgive me, understand me, or believe me. I am not interested in how sorry you may feel now.....or how willing you are to find solutions to make this M better. I am not hard of hearing or senile, and I don't have to have your consent or blessings on what I choose to do. You are not my father nor my Pastor, so stop preaching.

This won't do anything but start another argument, Zew. I have read many similar posts from other LBH's who try to make the W end the A and work on the M. Unfortunately, it just doesn't work this way.
_________________________
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!

What did I tell you in an earlier post, Ye, about this very matter? I said that DBing isn't one size fits all. It DEPENDS on each situation so DBing needs to be adapted and adjusted accordingly.

Sandi was responding specifically to Zew's situation and sharing her experience in that context. In this particular matter, Z wanted VERY BADLY to confront his W with evidence of her ongoing A.

With GoFo's situation, he has a book with really nasty comments scrawled all over it and WTF is he supposed to do with it???!! Exactly. We are advising him of how to approach W in a non-controlling way and ask her about it to get her side of it. Nothing about A. You see the difference?

[Wonka]

Edit:

'What did I tell you in an earlier post in your thread, Ye, about this very matter? I said that DBing isn't one size fits all. It DEPENDS on each situation so DBing needs to be adapted and adjusted accordingly.'

[zew]

Well, since I've been held up as an example that doesn't fit the situation, let me throw in as to what I think you should expect.

1. As I read it, there likely is an A/OM. Think about the worst act possible, and learn to detach from it. You don't want to be broadsided by your own emotions if she does reveal an A. If there isn't an A, then bonus!

2. Think about whether an A is a dealbreaker. And think of it in several ways. What if she ends it on her own, and chooses you. Is that ok? What if it ends because you forced her out of it; i.e. it wasn't her choice. Is that ok? What if it hasn't ended and you have to wait it out? Is that ok? You will likely change your opinion on this over time. Start coming to grips with it and what your core values/tolerance/forgiveness angles are.

3. You likely will not learn much from showing her the book. If she isn't in an A, she will claim not to know what it is about. A WAW in an A will lie. She will claim not to know what it is about. We all dream that she will break down, confess, and repent, but it never happens that way.

So you can maybe look at the book and say "Oh my, look what someone wrote in here!" and then watch the reaction. But if she's a WAW in an A, and you say "Do you know what this means?", she's going to take that as a full on accusation and it won't be pretty.

[Wonka]

Z,

3. You likely will not learn much from showing her the book.

Not sure about that one. I think one can learn quite bit by quietly listening to the spouse's words/tone/inflection and reading their body language. That will be the key. Then GoFo can store that info in the back of his mind.

Off to eat my take-out pizza and curling up with a book for the night!

[ye21]

You misread or misinterpreted my post completely.

I would say, "W, is there anything you need to tell me?" while you show her those comments. Sit quietly and listen. And do this in a public place like a park...

Now for the meaning of confronting:
meet (someone) face to face with hostile or argumentative intent.

So, I didnt misread, I read that very clear.

Then you can say, "We cannot be friends when there's a third party in this marriage. When you're done with the OM, I'd be open to your efforts at repairing the damage. I'd have to see your actions. Until you've cut ties with the OM, do not contact me at all."

What about respect her decision of not being with him instead of keep showing her that she did a mistake?

I did mistakes when I was young and it took me years to realize they were mistakes even if many people told me they were at that point, this is called self realization and until his W doesn't reaCh that point, every attempt to change that its manipulative and thats the way she will perceive it.

If she wants to be with Go she will eventually and based on his boundaries realize what steps she has to take. A boundary its not to tell, dont get close or talk to me untill you finish affair or contact with other man, a boundary will be to stop doing things that might lead her to think she can cake eat, stop having dinners, sharing personal time together and things like that.


As for A, I've been around the boards long enough to know that the vast majority of WASes have OW/OM in the picture. It is not mindreading at all, but comes with DB experience. What I am doing here is preparing GoFo for the real possibility that his W is indeed in an A. It is always best to be prepared than look silly when talking with a WAS, right?

Again, leaving in reality its much better, I have a different opinion about this, you know why? Whats the difference between a WAW with A and one without? None, they both leave you behind so at the end with or without A, Gogofo still separated and this is about helping him to change his toughs not preparing him for the worst...live the present moment and stop thinking about the negatives, once you think them you attract them...

With GoFo's situation, he has a book with really nasty comments scrawled all over it and WTF is he supposed to do with it???!!

What about nothing? What if the book wasnt written with any comments?? Thats a fear movement to proof him "right" and her "wrong" for having an A or not and her having an A or not doesnt change the fact that today and now she doesnt want to be with Gogofo, him growing spiritually and becoming a man only a fool would leave, that there might make her think about getting back with him.

We are advising him of how to approach W in a non-controlling way and ask her about it to get her side of it.

The only person advising that approach its you Wonka, I dont see others neither do I, agreeing with asking or confronting her about this book.

There is no point or reason for this and I would like to hear your reasons if you want to share them with me, and whats the expected benefit or outcome of this approach to her in this situation?

Nothing about A. You see the difference?

As for A, I've been around the boards long enough to know that the vast majority of WASes have OW/OM in the picture. It is not mindreading at all, but comes with DB experience. What I am doing here is preparing GoFo for the real possibility that his W is indeed in an A.
Then you can say, "We cannot be friends when there's a third party in this marriage. When you're done with the OM, I'd be open to your efforts at repairing the damage. I'd have to see your actions. Until you've cut ties with the OM, do not contact me at all."

Wonka I dont think I am misreading you when I see manipulation in your words, english its not my main language, however I understand you completelly when you write down even if first you say one thing and you ended changing that comment with :

Nothing about A. You see the difference?

And:

Wonka
Member

Registered: 10/01/04
Posts: 3188
Edit:

'What did I tell you in an earlier post in your thread, Ye, about this very matter? I said that DBing isn't one size fits all. It DEPENDS on each situation so DBing needs to be adapted and adjusted accordingly.'

Thats your opinion, I accept it, respect it and I understand how you feel about this, however I greatly appreciate if you dont judge my way of giving advice, for you it might not be valid for other it is valid.

Thank you Wonka

[gogofo]

Everyone, thanks for the advice. I don't know my plans yet, but tonight after the kids are in bed I am going to visualize the worst. Probably cry myself to sleep, but that is how it goes.

About WAW and A, I know she fantasized about dating or being with someone who wasn't who she made me out to be. I don't know if she did nothing, dated, kissed or went full out. When we were together she was very critical of people who cheated and even said she would kill me if I did it. I know she never would IF she was in her right mind. She also said she would leave and divorce me before she ever cheated because she respected me.

Right after BD when she was being "honest" she said she was too hurt to date or anything. She said she knew she would never marry again and would not even date for a long time, she was just too hurt. This is when she was ready to divide everything and go to a L ASAP, she had a paper out to plan it all out. She never wrote anything down because I broke down completely.

What I think it is is that she has been getting cozy with someone at work and either their spouse, SO, or friend is very pissed. Whom ever it is they do not know that we are separated because they wrote that they hope I kick her out.

Strictly EA, and kissing is definitely not a deal breaker. Heavy petting or full physical, I just don't know. The worst I can image would be if she got pregnant. I don't think I could reconcile and have a step child that would be a constant reminder of her indiscretions and have to see the OM all the time. This is going to be my visualization scenario tonight and I am sick to my stomach just typing this.

My gut tells me to work through these terrible thoughts and then do nothing. One reason is that I don't know if it is a deal breaker. Another is that I don't know if I am ready to set a boundary and I worry if by setting one over something I don't know the details about, it would destroy all our progress. Who ever wrote in the book will be bringing to reality what may have happened for me. Somewhere along the line it will come out, whether she brings it up or I do. I just don't feel right now is the right time.

Honestly I believe she would not go PA but I would not put it past her to test the waters by dating. She has strongly held values and has never wavered from them. She has been hand picked for promotions at work and refused them because she did not believe in the position. She refused doubling her salary. I feel, even by her actions, that she respects me enough to not get physical. Plus her mom works at the same place and doesn't support her separation from me. She would/will jump her sh!t if catches wind of an A.

Also I am surprised that I have not heard anything yet, this is not the kind of community to keep gossip secret.

I am also surprised that I am not feeling the pain I thought I would. I have had a fairly happy day even though it is on my mind a lot, it has not ruined my day. I worked through lots of pain early on after BD. Yahoo for emotional growth!

[gogofo]

Here is some irony for you. The night before the book showed up I had a dream where I had a chance to get intimate with my wife... and I didn't. Even in my dreams I cannot bring myself to cheat on my wife. This is at least the second dream I have had like this over the course of our relationship. Thought it was funny until I found the book that evening.

[gogofo]

Nothing too much new here, W has been in Chicago so we have the same limited contact.

Last night hit a punk rock show for my friend's band. Did a little self work and tried to visualize and deal with the worst.

Today I got the Vespa out and cruised around. Had a good day with the kids too.

W and I had the same "kids have good day?" "yes" text exchange this evening. My mom took them for a sleep over so I went out with a friend. She later sent a text that she had dinner at a Basque restaurant that I would have loved.

I did not respond.

I was having fun and I was hoping a non response would work well and hope she would possibly miss me. We are big foodies, as much as I absolutely despise the word. Food, cuisine, and culture was what we explored together. I know she must have been thinking about me during dinner to send the text so I hope my non response enforced the feeling. She was even fishing for small talk asking if it was snowing.

As much as I would have loved to text with her I held tight and let it go unanswered. I sometimes feel that it is her turn to miss and want me. She might lose one of the best people in the world who just happens to be her husband that she left. I am beyond worth it and it is her turn to realize this.

[gogofo]

Woke up this morning to find a text message from the W that said "Do you think we are fixable?". The message was sent from her at 3:30 in the morning. So I guess there may be some movement or thought about us on her part.

[2ndTimeHurt]

Did you respond?

[gogofo]

Nope, I just let it sit. I don't want to have a long texting session about our R. When I read the message it was 6 hours after she sent it. I also don't want to jump up and respond to all of her messages. The only text messages I responded to yesterday were about the kids.

I think I need to be a little less available, build some mystery about myself and my whereabouts.

[HollyAnn]

I'm glad you didn't answer yet; this is definitely not a discussion that should take lace through text.
Plus, she already knows the answer. These WAW can really jerk you around.

[gogofo]

I have been reading other threads on here and now again I am undecided about what to do for Easter.

The day is scheduled to be split, I have the kids in the morning and she will pick them up sometime in the afternoon.

I had planned on extending an invitation for the W to come over and watch the kids hunt for Easter eggs. If the accepted or not that would be her decision but it would not change what I was going to do.

Now after reading sandi2's comments on AndyK's thread I have began to think I should maybe change what I am going to do.

I think that maybe I should just go on with my plans of Easter activities but not extend an invitation to the W.

The reason being sandi2's advice of the W needing to see how things would be if we did D. I think I originally thought that if she did come and watch the kids she would be see what she would be missing. Now I think that maybe she should miss it and see what the D life would be like.

I have not pulled back or refused an invitation to do anything at all. The only exception being the non responded to text messages from last night and one evening while I dropped off the kids she wanted to talk schedule and I took off because I had plans.

Right now she probably knows that I will be here for her, I have not showed her anything different. What she hasn't been shown is what it would be like if she lost me and I got on with my life without her.

Lately I have been walking the walk about limited contact and all the other DB, GAL things I have going. It feels like my way of life now. But when things like Easter come up it feels like playing chess trying to figure out which move to make.

I don't know if my non response to her first two text messages last night prompted the "Do you think we are fixable" message or if it was just coincidence.

I am sure my opinion on Easter's plan of action will change after Thursday night. We have a scheduled dinner/kid swap evening. The last two we had she initiated R talks so I talked with her. I assume she will bring it up again, especially after the text message. I want to have thought this through and stick with a plan that seems to be the best course of action.

I get to familiar and safe around her when we are together. We have a stronger connection, it seems, now after BD than the months prior. It is hard not too take these feelings and run with them instead of letting her dictate the pace. I have not flubbed on initiating the R talk stuff since starting DB and don't plan to. I just don't know whether to extend an invite so we are like a "family" on Easter or leave her out of it so we are like a D family.

[HollyAnn]

I would leave the plans the way they are for now.

[scooby]

I agree keep the plans the way they are. Good job on your successes with dbing.

[gogofo]

W sent the "how are the kids" text message and I replied with a "they were good" kind of message. She then sends two additional messages.

"Oh good. I am ready to come home."
"Hope we can talk when I get home."

I didn't send anything back, but that is two nights in a row with her sending additional messages besides the kid stuff.

Trying not to read into it, but here I go anyways.

Another time she previously opened up was during her spring break. It seems if she isn't busy with work and classes she has been thinking about the M. The fact that she used the word hope, along with the middle of the night message, makes me think she is thinking more about working on us. In the past she would flat out say "we need to talk" and be direct with me. I think if she just wanted to be heard and not have a conversation she would have used this wording.

Maybe she has started to notice what she has been missing.

I know she had to be thinking about me at dinner for her to send the message about the restaurant. Food was always our special connection and in the past when she would eat at a good restaurant she would tell me all about it that evening and then say how it was not as fun or enjoyable without me. She even said in her text message yesterday that I would have loved it.

Now that I have that out of me, back to reality and trying not to have expectations.

[HollyAnn]

I like the way she just announces that she is "ready to come home." How would it have worked out if you had just announced, "I am ready for you to come home"...? A little snark, sorry. I guess it amuses me when I see a power-shift.

Be careful; this is an especially crucial time.
There could be some "touch and go" or other things. WAS will say they want to come back. When they are finally let back in (usually way too soon and way too easily) they bolt again. This is crazy-making.

This is the time to bite your tongue and listen; really listen to her. If she still expresses uncertainty, wants to come back with conditions that she still "needs space" or any other weirdness, that is the time to say things like, "I understand and I have some decisions to make as well." Play it cool. You know the drill.

What this sounds like to me is that your W may have had at least an EA, got all excited, started making plans for a new life...and BAM! Her EA person got scared, backed way off or just flat out broke things off. This happens a lot too. You don't need to be her plan B.

This being said, I think you've handled your sitch pretty well. Most of us who came here were not such quick studies.

[gogofo]

The "I'm ready to come home" I am confident meant that she is ready to be back in her home, not move back in with me.

What I find interesting is in the past spending 4 days in Chicago would not have been enough. She always has enjoyed traveling and now at the end of her last two work trips she mentioned being ready to come back (to her house). I never thought she would even express those feelings, especially now that we are separated.

Maybe now that she has experienced the freedom she thought she was missing when we were together, it is not as sweet as it seemed. That green grass may have been an illusion.

HollyAnn, thanks for the kind words about my progress and my work on handling the situation.

[HollyAnn]

The "I'm ready to come home" I am confident meant that she is ready to be back in her home, not move back in with me.

What I find interesting is in the past spending 4 days in Chicago would not have been enough. She always has enjoyed traveling and now at the end of her last two work trips she mentioned being ready to come back (to her house). I never thought she would even express those feelings, especially now that we are separated.

Maybe now that she has experienced the freedom she thought she was missing when we were together, it is not as sweet as it seemed. That green grass may have been an illusion.

HollyAnn, thanks for the kind words about my progress and my work on handling the situation.

You're very welcome!

She has already noticed that you're looking good and are GAL. She wouldn't have gotten so pissy about these changes if she didn't care even a little. This is why I think you should not invite her for Easter. This is an opportunity for her to experience missing an important day with the family. You show her the reality of a D and the effect it has on everyone.

Now all you have to do is muster all your strength and apply what you've learned. And keep expectations very low.

If she really does want to reconcile, this is one of the quickest turn-arounds I've seen. Most LBS spend too much time in paralysis because they're spinning, can't grab the reins because they're too scared of making WAS mad, etc. Understandable, but not helpful.

[Wonka]

Sorry folks for the hijack as I feel compelled to address Ye's post to me as it is riddled with faulty assumptions.

You misread or misinterpreted my post completely.

I would say, "W, is there anything you need to tell me?" while you show her those comments. Sit quietly and listen. And do this in a public place like a park...

Now for the meaning of confronting:
meet (someone) face to face with hostile or argumentative intent.

So, I didnt misread, I read that very clear.

You did misread my comment big time. The comment/question is to ask for clarification. Nowhere in the comment is the intent to confront. If there intent to confront, someone would have said, "So are you having an affair behind my back??!" See the difference?

Then you can say, "We cannot be friends when there's a third party in this marriage. When you're done with the OM, I'd be open to your efforts at repairing the damage. I'd have to see your actions. Until you've cut ties with the OM, do not contact me at all."

This is a boundary setting. It leaves the choice to W to continue with A or end it. It is how one sets a boundary, Ye.

What about respect her decision of not being with him instead of keep showing her that she did a mistake?

Not the case at all. We have suggested two courses of action to GoFo: simply ask about the comments or ignore them. It is not showing her mistakes. These mistakes are HERS alone. It is all there. If it were me, I would ask "Do you know anything about this?" or "Is there something you would like to say."


I did mistakes when I was young and it took me years to realize they were mistakes even if many people told me they were at that point, this is called self realization and until his W doesn't reaCh that point, every attempt to change that its manipulative and thats the way she will perceive it.

Ye, you are mixing up events and pulling together a mishmash of information that makes no sense. In this particular situation, we are focused on the comments of the book. For sure, GoFo didn't write them! How's that manipulative? It is all in there. Any normal person would ask "what's up with this"

If she wants to be with Go she will eventually and based on his boundaries realize what steps she has to take. A boundary its not to tell, dont get close or talk to me untill you finish affair or contact with other man, a boundary will be to stop doing things that might lead her to think she can cake eat, stop having dinners, sharing personal time together and things like that.


Go back to my comment about boundary setting. I am not sure if you fully grasp how proper boundary setting looks like. On one hand, you call boundary setting "confrontational" and then you come up with that ^^ comment which is proper boundary setting.

As for A, I've been around the boards long enough to know that the vast majority of WASes have OW/OM in the picture. It is not mindreading at all, but comes with DB experience. What I am doing here is preparing GoFo for the real possibility that his W is indeed in an A. It is always best to be prepared than look silly when talking with a WAS, right?

Again, leaving in reality its much better, I have a different opinion about this, you know why? Whats the difference between a WAW with A and one without? None, they both leave you behind so at the end with or without A, Gogofo still separated and this is about helping him to change his toughs not preparing him for the worst...live the present moment and stop thinking about the negatives, once you think them you attract them...

A huge difference! An affair rips apart the LBS' sense of self and breaches one's trust in a very, very hurtful way. I am all for living in the present. But doesn't mean one needs to be in "ignorance is bliss" life. Being aware is being knowledgeable and knowing what one faces ahead.

With GoFo's situation, he has a book with really nasty comments scrawled all over it and WTF is he supposed to do with it???!!

What about nothing? What if the book wasnt written with any comments?? Thats a fear movement to proof him "right" and her "wrong" for having an A or not and her having an A or not doesnt change the fact that today and now she doesnt want to be with Gogofo, him growing spiritually and becoming a man only a fool would leave, that there might make her think about getting back with him.

Doing nothing is one other option...most certainly. The book was WRITTEN with comments. Ye, this is the reality. Not speculating. We're working with what GoFo reports here.


We are advising him of how to approach W in a non-controlling way and ask her about it to get her side of it.

The only person advising that approach its you Wonka, I dont see others neither do I, agreeing with asking or confronting her about this book.

That's the beauty of this forum. We can offer advice and the poster can decide to pursue a certain advice as he/she feels best. Again, it is not "confronting" her as you think here. It's simply asking for her opinion and finding out what that was all about.


There is no point or reason for this and I would like to hear your reasons if you want to share them with me, and whats the expected benefit or outcome of this approach to her in this situation?

Benefits are two fold: 1) gauging W's reactions 2) possibility determining if there's an A. Nothing less, nothing more.


Nothing about A. You see the difference?

As for A, I've been around the boards long enough to know that the vast majority of WASes have OW/OM in the picture. It is not mindreading at all, but comes with DB experience. What I am doing here is preparing GoFo for the real possibility that his W is indeed in an A.

Then you can say, "We cannot be friends when there's a third party in this marriage. When you're done with the OM, I'd be open to your efforts at repairing the damage. I'd have to see your actions. Until you've cut ties with the OM, do not contact me at all."

Wonka I dont think I am misreading you when I see manipulation in your words, english its not my main language, however I understand you completelly when you write down even if first you say one thing and you ended changing that comment with :

Nothing about A. You see the difference?

Are you dense or something? What I am simply offering is a clarification and a handy script in the event that it comes that W is indeed having an affair. It is not manipulating at all. We've offered scripts that is boundary setting in a non-controlling way. You don't get this at all. I've read your threads and you've not really grasped boundary setting nor validating YET. You have a ways to get there.

And:

Wonka
Member

Registered: 10/01/04
Posts: 3188

What does ^^^ that have to do with anything?

Edit:

'What did I tell you in an earlier post in your thread, Ye, about this very matter? I said that DBing isn't one size fits all. It DEPENDS on each situation so DBing needs to be adapted and adjusted accordingly.'

Thats your opinion, I accept it, respect it and I understand how you feel about this, however I greatly appreciate if you dont judge my way of giving advice, for you it might not be valid for other it is valid.

Yes, you do have an opinion. But when there's a glaring error in the ways of presenting information or erroneous thoughts, I do bring up some counter points based on DBing experience and some of the tried and true methods in boundary setting.


Thank you Wonka

Thank you too, Ye.

[Wonka]

GoFo,

Remember what we say here about keeping the road paved smooth for the WAS? Can you do this? What would that look like to you?

[labug]

The "I'm ready to come home" I am confident meant that she is ready to be back in her home, not move back in with me.

What I find interesting is in the past spending 4 days in Chicago would not have been enough. She always has enjoyed traveling and now at the end of her last two work trips she mentioned being ready to come back (to her house). I never thought she would even express those feelings, especially now that we are separated.

Maybe now that she has experienced the freedom she thought she was missing when we were together, it is not as sweet as it seemed. That green grass may have been an illusion.

I read most of your threads over the weekend and I'm impressed by your handling of yourself. I don't have anything to add other than don't mind read no matter how tempting it seems. Keep your life principles at the forefront, respect yourself and respect others.

Have you read other threads here, some of the older threads have lots you can learn.

[labug]

I just read yesterday's posts, I do have something to add.

About Easter, I don't know if it's a religious holiday for you or just the bunny and candy but it's a family thing but keep the kids first here. They're young so if it feels right to have the time as a family, do that.

Re your W's msgs, don't play too coy. She wants to talk, you can certainly respond in kind, if in fact that's what you want.

Take it slowly with beginner's mind. If you don't understand that, please read more about it.

[gogofo]

GoFo,

Remember what we say here about keeping the road paved smooth for the WAS? Can you do this? What would that look like to you?

I can do this, and have been working at it the whole time. I have been a good neighbor to her. When we have had dinner together I pay attention to her, eye contact, follow up questions, all the good listening skills. I validate what she says and fully try to listen with my heart, not my ears. These just aren't tactics to get her back though, it is how I want to interact with people and have been working at it.

When she has brought up R talk, I just listen and validate. I do not offer suggestions or try to fix things, which was difficult at first but now is second nature. I really do understand how she could have the feelings about the M she expresses. They are her feelings and whether the basis of them seems skewed to me or not, this is how she feels so I need to see things through her eyes. Empathy is basically what I have been working on, very heavily.

Smooth paved road; I keep on with what has been working for me. I do not go on the attack or express "me" feelings when she talks about how she feels. I also leave the comments from the book alone for a while. I feel they are a non issue for me at this point. I also feel that they will come up when the time is right and if I want things to be smooth, right now is not the time.

I just read yesterday's posts, I do have something to add.

About Easter, I don't know if it's a religious holiday for you or just the bunny and candy but it's a family thing but keep the kids first here. They're young so if it feels right to have the time as a family, do that.

Re your W's msgs, don't play too coy. She wants to talk, you can certainly respond in kind, if in fact that's what you want.

Take it slowly with beginner's mind. If you don't understand that, please read more about it.

Easter is just the bunny and egg hunt for us, but also family dinner which was/is important. I am still on the fence about what to do. Invite not invite they both seem correct. On one hand I don't want her to cake eat on the other hand I don't want to punish her.

I did not respond to the last text last night because I could not think of what I wanted to write back. I hate text messages that include feelings because it is so easy to misinterpret and did not want to risk this.

We will be in text contact tonight to work out the kids swap details for tomorrow so I will probably tell her "we can talk on Thursday", after our scheduled dinner, when the kids are asleep.

Still trying to remain grounded and not get my hopes up, but things seem positive towards the chance to work on us. I don't expect her to say "I love you" or "I want to move back in". The last time we talked she said she did not know if she could trust me. I think she might bring up the idea that she may be open to working on us and start the process of rebuilding trust an our relationship. I will let her dictate this pace and try to reign in my enthusiasm of going in too fast. I do know that I won't allow her to move back right now. As much as I would like it I know it is way too early.

We will see, just still trying to remain level headed and grounded.

[Wonka]

GoFo,

You seem to be handling this pretty good!

The last time we talked she said she did not know if she could trust me.

It seems to be a constant theme to W. If and when W does bring this very issue up again, how about saying:

I am sorry you feel this way. What would that look like to you? Please show me what I can do to earn your trust back.

[labug]

Just to be clear, keep the kids in first position around this

Easter is just the bunny and egg hunt for us, but also family dinner which was/is important. I am still on the fence about what to do. Invite not invite they both seem correct. On one hand I don't want her to cake eat on the other hand I don't want to punish her.

It's not our job to mete out consequences. If you felt a boundary (for your protection) was appropriate, that's understandable. That doesn't seem to be the case in your situation.

Why do you think she doesn't trust you? How can you begin to build that trust?

[HollyAnn]

Just to be clear, keep the kids in first position around this

Easter is just the bunny and egg hunt for us, but also family dinner which was/is important. I am still on the fence about what to do. Invite not invite they both seem correct. On one hand I don't want her to cake eat on the other hand I don't want to punish her.

It's not our job to mete out consequences. If you felt a boundary (for your protection) was appropriate, that's understandable. That doesn't seem to be the case in your situation.

Why do you think she doesn't trust you? How can you begin to build that trust?

I think we ARE supposed to show what they will be missing. It's not like he told her she can't come to Easter.
He can let her come if she asks; he just doesn't have to invite her unless she tells him she wants to try full on for R.

[25yearsmlc]

This is one of those situations where either answer could go wrong/right.

By having a lovely family event, you provide something the WAS WILL realize they'd miss, if they were to divorce. There's no way she won't think of that!

True, she'd also realize it if you make her realize it by excluding her, but that adds the "he's punishing me" element into the equation...and I cannot see how it would help her wake up to how great you are. Which is, more or less, your goal. Right?

I think the more she sees you lovingly interacting with your kids, the better. For most women it's a turn on and would do more good than harm. Not to mention how the kids would feel with both parents, instead of highlighting the absence of you at each of the other's event...

Putting the kids first keeps things clear. (You'll never regret doing right by your kids). Maybe You can have your w there when it's a kid/family thing (for the kids sake) but no "Couples" events, if you want.

I think you're so wise to figure out first if a PA is a deal breaker.

Once upon a time I was sure it would be, and I think it would have been when we were first married and for years. But there have been years when I think we would have been able to get past it.

If I found out today, about an affair that ended some time ago, I'd probably get over it. A lot would depend on how it ended, OR IF he ended it, versus the OW cutting it off, if there were one.

But if you KNEW with 100% certainty that nothing your wife could do would ever make up for having an affair, (which is something a few people do know, but I think you would already know if that were the case with you),

and only then, would I be sure to recommend confronting...b/c frankly, if it is something you can get past, how on earth does getting the details out, help you to do that?

Be careful about how much "honesty" you want when it comes to details. Some folks crave knowing it all ---- but I've NEVER met one who was glad to have heard it all, and then successfully reconciled.

MY sister's h had an affair and he confessed to her. They did get past it, but in their case, He broke it off, & HE kept OW away, and then my sister and h went to a lot of counseling. My sister said the less she knew the details, the better, for HER...

Keep that in mind...but of course, decide for yourself.

Are you bearing in mind your overall goal of being the best man YOU can be? The empathy and less controlling behaviors can't get the shift because you now believe there is OM.

I guess I'd have to ask, what if anything does an A change, about your own work?

May I suggest, nothing? You still have your own stuff in your own sandbox.

Don't let a possible/probable A of any nature, deflect from your own needed repair work. That's a lousy combination b/c then you can play the victim and never improve yourself OR your own happiness.

I already know you don't want this^^^....I'm merely reminding you that it often happens here. If a 3rd party is involved or likely to be, some people start ringing bells as if THIS IS THE ANSWER but it's almost always a bit more complicated.

Also I do know people who have left their families and not had a OP. My younger sister is getting divorced at her request, and she has no OM. My oldest brother divorced a wonderful woman, and he had No OW (but I am sure he wished).

Just understand that having an affair does NOT mean that your spouse has "no respect for you" although it would feel that way. You'll hear a lot of people, even around here, talking about how "disrespectful an affair is" but I fear that is often the projecting of a person with a badly wounded ego...b/c mostly that's not on the mind of the person having an affair. I have not had a PA but 20+ years ago, I wanted to...so I realize it's not all about anger or disrespect at all. It CAN be, about loneliness inside a marriage...

And to the one having the affair, remember that they have rationalized it b/c they feel their needs went unmet for too long. They don't necessarily hide it b/c of shame, but more b/c of concern about repercussions AND OR b/c they are not sure what they want to do or how they feel. Confronting can lead to ultimatums that rarely work to the benefit of the marriage, long term.

While there is often regret after an A, while in the throes of it, most women who have affairs do NOT feel they are "wrong"...but that they are justified.

Knowing what you know of your wife's mores & values, isn't the root of the problem - how she got to where that would be justified? Is it all her flawed thinking and selfishness??

See, this is where your hard work comes in...make sense?

[25yearsmlc]

PS

Just read a study of long term marriages that showed the least amount of happiness and most stressful times in a marriage, are the first few years after the birth of a second or third chid...

Thought I'd share that with you. Wish I could find the link but that statement really resonated with me. Gosh, I'm so glad I was younger then. The sleepless nights and two parents working and taking the kids to daycare and back, then to work and yada yada...so many times I asked myself why life seemed so hard.

We moved to a smaller city to get more time and just reducing the commute added an hour a day to family time...

So I'm just reminding you that having both of you working with two small kids is NOT EASY...

but what if it does not get harder than it is now? What if you could make it past this? Imagine that scenario too...or it won't be possible to actualize it.

((( )))

[gogofo]

Caution, long post below

It seems to be a constant theme to W. If and when W does bring this very issue up again, how about saying:

I am sorry you feel this way. What would that look like to you? Please show me what I can do to earn your trust back.

I really like this response and will commit it to memory. I have thought about responses like this but I thought it may have been seen as a "fix" or pursuit or she may have interpreted it as me minimizing her pain. I would not have used the "what would it look like to you" phrasing and I think this is they key. I need to let her dictate what she needs. I know this but would not have had as clear and concise wording.

Why do you think she doesn't trust you? How can you begin to build that trust?

Why? In the past I had made changes to my behavior that enriched our relationship. Looking back they were reactionary, but genuine. I never did the work or understood what these changes meant to her and her feelings so they never stuck. I think she is scared the changes she see will fade away and we will be back in the same situation.

To build that trust again has already began. I am understanding where her pain comes from and where I have contributed to it, with the limited information she has given me. I plan to keep working on my R skills and learning about myself and making the behaviors permanent. I hope the opportunity comes to use these skill more with the W. We need to have more open and honest communication when we rebuild this trust so we can better understand each other.

I think the more she sees you lovingly interacting with your kids, the better. For most women it's a turn on and would do more good than harm.

This is why I am leaning most towards extending the invite, whether she comes or not.

I think you're so wise to figure out first if a PA is a deal breaker.

If I found out today, about an affair that ended some time ago, I'd probably get over it. A lot would depend on how it ended, OR IF he ended it, versus the OW cutting it off, if there were one

These are my feelings, I know there are certain actions I could possibly work through and forgive. Others may be difficult or impossible. A current ongoing PA would force me to set a boundary. Any thing else would have to be worked on or worked through. I am not going to act all macho and put up a false front that if there was a PA it would be an immediate deal breaker.

As far as details, I would need to know how is started, how long, probably how often, and who broke it off. Maybe some more details about physical acts, but not full disclosure.

I guess I'd have to ask, what if anything does an A change, about your own work?

May I suggest, nothing? You still have your own stuff in your own sandbox.

Don't let a possible/probable A of any nature, deflect from your own needed repair work. That's a lousy combination b/c then you can play the victim and never improve yourself OR your own happiness.

Nothing changes about my work. This is why the book comments will not be brought up, right now it will not change the course of action. If there is/was an A I am forming the opinion that she messed up something good and it will be her loss if I cannot work through it. I hope I can keep this attitude if needed.

Also I do know people who have left their families and not had a OP.

So I'm just reminding you that having both of you working with two small kids is NOT EASY...

but what if it does not get harder than it is now? What if you could make it past this? Imagine that scenario too...or it won't be possible to actualize it.

When BD happened the way it seemed was that we worked each other apart and she was beginning to wander what life would be like with someone loving and appreciating her. It seemed she left to clear her head.

Yes life is not easy, we went through the toughest time of our life.

I was working 60 to 75 hours a week, nights, weekends, when my phone rang I had to answer and it rang almost everyday and never with good news. A normal day would find me work 7 to 4, grab kids, cook dinner for family, W show up around 6 and eat with us. Be family until 8 and I would leave while she put kids down and work until midnight or later. Weekends would get shot to hell to.

She was teaching full time, working on being an accredidation liason for the entire school, serving on three different commities, heading a club, attending different meetings weekly, and being the president of the faculty. Oh and also taking two doctoral classes on outreach.

Oh yeah, we had two kids too, and two dogs.

We worked each other apart and everyone in my family said this when I told them about BD. There is no guessing on what had killed our relationship.

Knowing what you know of your wife's morals & values, isn't the root of the problem - how she got to where that would be justified? Is it all her flawed thinking and selfishness??

See, this is where your hard work comes in...make sense?

This is where my focus has been since second week after BD. I under estimated her pain and realized she would not make herself feel this way on purpose.

I have taken ownership of 90% of the blame in her feelings, which may be too much, but I need to look at myself. She has some things to work on too, but I cannot do that. I took her possibly exagerated WAS feelings and comments she made and turned them to truths and forced myself to look at myself with her descriptions. I basically told myself that I forced her out and what can I do to change these things, if I in fact wanted to change them. I worked on and continue to work on myself from the extremes. I feel no reason to try and downplay my role in all of this. In engineering we call this a "safety factor".

This is where the hard work will come in. If she does in fact want to work towards piecing then the work will be even harder, but I am up for anything.

[labug]

Whether she decides to try R or not, your work is the same because the next R will be no different. Do you now have a different perspective on what it important to you? It seems that you do. If you had to write a mission statement for you, what would it be? What are your guiding principles, values?

I am understanding where her pain comes from and where I have contributed to it, with the limited information she has given me. I plan to keep working on my R skills and learning about myself and making the behaviors permanent. I hope the opportunity comes to use these skill more with the W. We need to have more open and honest communication when we rebuild this trust so we can better understand each other.

What does this^^ mean?

Yes, I'm pushing but without a plan and actionable steps, it won't happen. This is the most important project you will ever manage, make yourself accountable and create a plan. The only difference in this plan is, it's lifecycle is the same as yours.

I say the above in response to this:

In the past I had made changes to my behavior that enriched our relationship. Looking back they were reactionary, but genuine. I never did the work

That shows a lot of insight and self-evaluation, a great place to begin. You then went on to say you didn't understand what the changes meant to her. Talk more about that if you can.

About affairs and why people leave, my H left because he was done, he hung on for as long as he could and finally, as he told me, he wanted a chance to be happy. We hadn't been happy for a long time. There was no other woman, not even the hint of one.

[labug]

I'm just catching up on your last thread and got to the part about the book. I would guess it's written by a woman and who knows why but it's scary and threatening.

Could you sit with her and talk about it? "W, I don't know what this is about but it's concerning to me. I want you to be safe and I want my kids to be safe."

Focus on what's important, not ego stuff.

[gogofo]

What does this^^ mean?

Yes, I'm pushing but without a plan and actionable steps, it won't happen. This is the most important project you will ever manage, make yourself accountable and create a plan. The only difference in this plan is, it's lifecycle is the same as yours.

She has talked about what she has felt during our relationship that drove her away; trapped, disrespected, un-liked, she lost trust in me. We have yet to get far enough in talks for her to tell me what actions of mine caused these issues, I have just been speculating and introspective of myself to which of my actions may have caused this.

Before DBing I pursued and she was adamant about a D so I basically went LRT on her for two months before she opened up and talked a little about her feelings. We still have a lot of R talking to do.

As far as a plan, I have been reading a book about restoring trust that has actionable steps to work through that are supposed to help. I have been holding myself accountable in actions that I do not like. Plans and steps after this have not yet been figured out. If we get to piecing it will probably follow along with the restoring trust book and a pro marriage solution oriented MC if we can find one in our small community.

About affairs and why people leave, my H left because he was done, he hung on for as long as he could and finally, as he told me, he wanted a chance to be happy. We hadn't been happy for a long time. There was no other woman, not even the hint of one.

This is almost word for word what I heard from my W. She included that she "broke" also when I walked out all stressed out and crazy to go to work. She said she was crying at the table and didn't want me to leave. I have no recollection of this conversation, which is weird, but I was in a fight or flight state with work for about 6 months.

About the book, the timing does not feel right for me yet. I want to path right now to be smooth and I feel she could see me bringing it up as an attack. There is fear in me about the answer and repercussions of what may be behind the comments in the book. Things as still fragile with us and I feel it may be better to wait until we have talked more openly about us to bring it up. I never thought about the kids needing to feel safe though. They do attend preschool at her work...

We sent text messages back and forth yesterday while she was flying back. Most of them friendly and non business like. Pictures of food and restaurants I would like, etc. I brought up that we could talk Thursday after the kids go to bed, in response to a text message of her's about hoping we could talk when she got back. Her response was "Sure. Actually I was going to ask you to come for dinner and to dye Easter eggs with boys. If you want". So we are set up to talk again on Thursday. If the kids weren't such an easy excuse I wonder how much harder it would be for us to interact.

If the discussions go well and are healthy and about rebuilding trust I may mention the book comments and approach it from the kids needing to be safe angle.

[labug]

If the kids weren't such an easy excuse I wonder how much harder it would be for us to interact.

That's not where you are so why do you go there?

Your default is set to "I'm not good enough" or something close to that. Is that true in other areas of your life? Could explain some of that need for control comes from, what do you think.

About the book...if you can drop it without judgment (and you don't believe the person who wrote is a threat to your family) then do that but don't bring it up later. You have information about her that you're not sharing with her, R are built on trust. If you're going to let it go, you must truly let it go.

Speak now or forever hold your peace.

[Wonka]

GoFo,

It seems that you've thought about the book situation very carefully and agree that timing is everything. Even if you do talk this week with W, I'd hold off on bringing up the comments as you said that things are "fragile" at the moment.

From my perch, it is more important to build up the communication channel with W. That is how trust is earned. Communication, validating, and consistent actions. These three prongs are a good bridge building to the piecing. I am not sure if you are in the piecing phase as it seems that W is not yet at that place or mindset in reconciliation. More of a "wait and see" approach to ensure that your words and actions are congruent to her. This is how you earn your trust with her. Make sense?

Oh and I would add that using humor during those talks are good way to inject light-hearted moments. Sometimes people get way too intense and they feel suffocated. It is a delicate dance that I think you can do here, GoFo! Self-deprecating humor is a winner!

If the kids weren't such an easy excuse I wonder how much harder it would be for us to interact.

Mindreading...forget this. Does not do you any good.

If the discussions go well and are healthy and about rebuilding trust I may mention the book comments and approach it from the kids needing to be safe angle.

This is all down to timing. You would want to build on any of the positive interactions so she'll have more positive thoughts and memories. You'll know when it is the right time.

You got this, dude! small slap on your back

[gogofo]

Your default is set to "I'm not good enough" or something close to that. Is that true in other areas of your life? Could explain some of that need for control comes from, what do you think.

"I'm not good enough" is not much of an issue in other areas of my life. More like the more you know the less you know, but I have a science, technology, engineering, math (STEM) profession so I am constantly learning. I have achieved high success quickly. Earned a 4 year scholarship, graduated in 4 years which less than 10% do in my field, passed stringent national testing three different times on the first try, am 25 years younger than the median age in my field, and a partial owner where I work; I never really have failed at much that I put my mind to. Until this that is.

But NOW (after BD) I learned to not base happiness on my career. Big 180 for sure, and a cause of a lot of my underlying problems.

In relationships I feel not good enough, this is an area of work for me. I also need feed back and to listen to what she says (if we ever get there). When we were together I know she told me I was more than enough but I let doubt creep in. When I started loosing control with my work everything started to spiral down for us. I lost all confidence in myself and hated myself which changed how I treated others.

You are correct, I was most likely grasping at control of anything I could.

[gogofo]

I am not sure if you are in the piecing phase as it seems that W is not yet at that place or mindset in reconciliation. More of a "wait and see" approach to ensure that your words and actions are congruent to her. This is how you earn your trust with her. Make sense?

Oh and I would add that using humor during those talks are good way to inject light-hearted moments. Sometimes people get way too intense and they feel suffocated. It is a delicate dance that I think you can do here, GoFo! Self-deprecating humor is a winner!

I would say we may be at pre-piecing phase, but things could go either way depending on Thursday. I agree with a "wait and see" approach and feel that IF piecing comes to us, the book comments can be dealt with in a more healthy trust building way.

I feel the book has the potential to be a big mountain and I don't feel it is wise to climb the biggest mountain when we haven't even laced our boots yet. If we start this journey it will be on our route.

I also have a PhD in self-deprecating humor. We have always laughed a lot and I use humor to cheer people up or two ease tension. I also use it to mask feelings though and to change or divert subjects that are touchy so I need to be careful that I do not invalidate or discredit any progress we make with too much humor.

She uses humor too. When she dropped the bomb the next day when talking I broke severely and was a complete emotional mess. She was talking D and this time. A day or two later she backed off the D talk and I asked why? She started a comment, stopped, and I told her I could take it. She said "You were like a wounded animal and I felt that I should just put you out of your misery." I laughed my ass off, she did too, and it brought some levity to the situation. I still laugh about it. Boy I was a mess that day, thanks to the book and this board I am nowhere near that fragile anymore.

[Wonka]

GoFo,

I wanted to highlight your response to Bug's post:

You are correct, I was most likely grasping at control of anything I could.

It's that pesky control thing! Be mindful of this when interacting with W. Also like this gem that has floated around the DB on, to me, a too infrequent basis:

Listen without defending and speak without offending

[gogofo]

This is where I have improved because one time while venting to me she talked about how now I am a good listener, more soft spoken and all around attentive. She was also upset that I am taking better physical care of myself, shaving every day and wearing nice clothes and looking good. I still have to decide when to "show off" new clothes to her so it doesn't seem like every time she sees me I have something new on.

She felt insulted that she had to leave for me to understand what she wanted. She felt I was trying to manipulate her. I told her how I could understand why she would feel that way; I reiterated that it probably seemed like a show due to my previous track record.

Listen without defending and speak without offending is a great way to sum it up.

As far as control, I have let her dictate the pace. She even flat out asked the first time we had a little talk if I was ever going to bring "us" up. I simply responded "Nope. The last time I brought us up I underestimated how much you were hurt and it was unfair to you." I was mentally preparing to not have any talks about us until June or later but we have had three little talks over the last five weeks or so.

[labug]

gogofo, I think your insight is great, now if you can just stay with that and not allow the pressure to succeed or be the best to trip you up. Life is about balance, and your life was completely out of balance. Would you say you're a workaholic? That word has become cliched but that doesn't mean the phenomenon doesn't exist.

How will you deal with your out of balance life? Do you have an IC?

I think it's good you've allowed this to go at your W's pace. But I would say IF she's thinking of trying again that you dictate the pace, the very slow pace. You are a previous offender.

My H and I took about 6 months of dating (each other) we'd been apart of 2.5 years. I had done a lot of work on me during that time apart and continue to do so. I read a story of another couple who dated for a year before moving back in together. They both had IC during that year.

It's so easy to fall back into our automatic thinking.

The stakes here are high and precious.

[labug]

Don't forget the mission statement, your guiding document that will help keep you on track.

[gogofo]

I would say that I am half of a workaholic. What I really am is dedicated to my job, but as a partner in the company it is expected. I know some would look at me and think I work too much, but I know others who I would consider workaholics. I enjoy my free time and don't feel like I need to work constantly.

Things have changed in my attitude NOW after BD about work but previously I was probably 50% to 75% a workaholic.

I do not have an IC. I have a friend who mentioned he sees one and it has helped him with food addiction issues. It is something I considered early in my situation but I feel I have made great strides without one, so far. When we had our first blowup when I pursued right after it hit me like what alcoholics call a "moment of clarity". I have treated it like that everyday since then. It was my moment to drop my former life and build a new one for me with using lessons from the past and newly gained skills. This forum has also basically been my IC (internet counselor.)

The balance in my life has come back very close to center with adjustments I have made with myself and with my work. I have started to delegate more work to others and realize that I cannot or do not need to do everything myself. Another control issue I have been working through.

Right now I do not have a timeline of when I would expect her back in the house. I just want us to try to date and reconcile again. My timeline is open ended.

LA: What do you mean by the mission statement? I am a little foggy on this.

[labug]

Who you want to be as a man, a husband a father. The creed you live by, the principles/values that are your center and your guide. Asking questions like how would you would like to be remembered can be helpful.

Those of us here are just the peanut gallery and can ask questions and occasionally give a few 2x4s but that shouldn't be confused with professional counseling. Not that what happens here isn't valuable but it's different. :)Sometimes a therapist can help us safely look deeper, expose our patterns, give perspective.

Interesting how you quantify a workaholic. Is someone who gets blasted every weekend binge drinking different from someone who drinks every night but drinks the same quantity?

Would your W say you're a workaholic? Is she a workaholic?

I think you're doing a great job. Keep on keeping on. Is today the day of the talk?

[gogofo]

Hello my name is GoGoFo and I am a workaholic, and so is my wife.

I never thought about it but if it is looked at from an addition angle, I am a workaholic because it negatively effects my life. The good news is that I am over 4 months "sober" and continue to work at it.

I guess I can liken it to enjoying wine with dinner every night to make your dinner more enjoyable and then wake up without any hangover; this to me in not addiction. Then take the same quantity of wine and pound down two bottles every weekend, wake up with a hangover, miss commitments, etc; to me this is addiction.

During the project I had I was in the grips of addiction (work) and spiraling out of control. The problem was also being required to partake in the addiction by having to work at least 40 hours a week and take care of any other issues. Not a good time for anyone.

Tonight is the night. We will have dinner, dye eggs with the kids, put them down for bed, then I wait to see what she has to say. Right now I am not antsy or nervous. I finished a book on restoring trust last night and have an idea what could be in store for us if we head down that path.

I am excited for tonight, but trying to not let it turn into expectations. Trying to remain at optimistic realism and will be acting "as if" we have a strong and healthy relationship when I arrive. I am ready to listen, validate, and STFU if I feel argumentative or offended. Those feelings need to be in check because they will not help us work through or solve anything.

DR says this, Sandi's rules says this, and the trust book I read reinforces that listening and validating help work through issues; leave offence and blame at the door. It does not mean that we agree with everything the other person says, but it does mean that we understand what they are saying and how they feel.

People can argue all night long when in the situation we all find ourselves in. This solves nothing and fixes nothing. My goal right now is a CHANCE at reconciliation and my actions will be dictated by moving closer to that goal. My pride has nothing to do with rebuilding the R, her feelings to not trump mine, we are equals in the R.

I am going to try and pave this bumpy road smooth with understanding, support, positive 180s, and my personal growth.

[gogofo]

Who you want to be as a man, a husband a father. The creed you live by, the principles/values that are your center and your guide. Asking questions like how would you would like to be remembered can be helpful.

I know how I FEEL about who I want to be but finding the correct words is difficult. I have always been hard on myself with finding the correct words, especially with emotional language.

Part of this is because of being stereotyped as a "math" mind, but I was in advanced placement English in high school. I also don't read novels much, mostly technical based writings so my vocabulary is not what those that are well read are. Yeah I know, excuses...

I would like to be remembered as loving, open, kind, caring, hard working, intelligent, critical, supportive, dedicated, enjoyer of live... but who wouldn't. I need to expand on these things.

I know I have always wanted to "make a difference that left the world a better place" but I am not sure what that feeling means when put to specifics. My job does not have much of a "human" aspect of it and maybe this is an area lacking in my life.

[Wonka]

GoFo,

Workaholic are avoiders in general. They use work to escape some of the harsher realities of life, unhappy home life, unhappy marriage, or loneliness. I'd urge you to assess, examine, and review the reasons why you feel that you're a workaholic...what or who are you escaping from?

[gogofo]

I know a part of my escape was from the kids. Our youngest was difficult for the first two years. He ran off three babysitters in two months. He was very moody, volatile, and a screamer. He did not cry, he screamed. The only person who could soothe him was mama. One time he screamed for two and a half hours straight while the W took some time away from the babies. He would get so upset he would sometimes vomit or pass out. He has out grown most of these traits but now treats mom very poorly as she is only supposed to provide comfort and love, in his opinion.

The other part about working is it is basically a requirement for being a project manager and owner. I signed my life away in a business agreement and took on a big project. Unfortunately everything went wrong with the project, but I never asked for help. I should have but embarrassment, and pride got in the way. When my partners learned what happened with BD they pulled my work records and were immediately upset. They said my hours and time put in should never have happened and I should have had more support. It was a lot of pressure, one job to keep 25 people making money and their families happy. Without this job we would have laid off employees. The job continuously grew in scope each week and we barely handled the load.

It was unfair to my family and those involved but being a partner it was my duty to perform. Had I been a regular employee my commitment would not have been anywhere near as great. But I have to work to put food on the table too.

I am sure at the end I was escaping from the chaos I created at home, but I was so out of my mind by then I cannot clearly recollect the conditions at home but they must have been pretty bad.

[gogofo]

We had our evening and things went okay. Had a ton of fun with the kids dying Easter eggs, W cooked us dinner and we ended up talking from about two hours.

I would say it was a positive talk, maybe another small step towards piecing. I will give more details in the morning but the big thing is she asked if I thought we were fixable. I just got honest and said yes, she said she wasn't sure. She doesn't know how she feels. She is not feeling like D but is also not feeling like reconnecting. She likes me, or as she put it "I must not hate you because I enjoy being around you". We laughed about it later and her choice of words. I could see her thinking about us and she would shake her head and say "I don't know". I finally told her after a couple of times that I understand how she could feel that way, but I was not asking for an answer.

Another bit of information that came out was that she had called a L and made an appointment but later cancelled. She said she just was not sure that is what she wanted.

I think I may slowly expand the text message contact at night to include questions about her and how she is doing. See if there is cheese down that hole.

Her family's Easter day was shot to help so I don't think she has plans. I thought about inviting her over to my parents to eat with the family but I am unsure if this is appropriate. It just doesn't feel right. I think my grandparents would get over excited and have expectations and I don't know how the W would feel.

Now to sleep...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[VFL]

I'm wishing you all the luck in the world. Seems like you're doing it right.

[gogofo]

Here is yesterday in a nutshell, a big one.

W called at 4:45 and asked if and wanted to accompany family to grocery store, I accepted and she stopped in and picked me up. We romped around grocery store for an hour and headed out to her house.

An the way there out of the blue our oldest says "Daddy you can stay at our house in mommy's bed, she has two pillows!" We both paused for a second, looked forward, and then chuckled. I thought he had a good idea though.

W feeds kids, cooks our dinner, and then we proceed to the egg dying. This whole time I do not have a vehicle or a ride home without her taking me. I romp on the floor and wrestle with the kids for a while and sit wondering if my oldest was psychic. Finally around 8:45 we all load up and go to my house. Put the kids down and then I wait to see if she will start the conversation.

We small talk a little and then I just stop and look at her. I can see her wrestling with thoughts in her head and she keeps asking "what"? I finally ask, to give her some encouragement, what she wanted to chit chat about.

She started off with how she felt when she left. She said she felt like she was going to die if she didn't leave. I asked how long she felt these things and she said in September for sure and them brought up three other instances from the past.

Two of the arguments we got into were about rocking chairs for the babies rooms. I was opinionated and dumb about the whole process. The chairs were for her and her comfort, but I was an idiot about it and made her feel disrespected and unimportant. I should have let her have any chair she wanted, in retrospect I was such an idiot about it and unable to look at how she felt about the situation.

The other feelings she has of mistrust or feeling unimportant were about my decision to get a vasectomy. Before we even married we were pretty much in agreement about having two children. The first child was spearheaded by her. She brought up the idea and I agreed to go with it. After the first, the roles reversed and I spearheaded the decision about the second child. The second had a more difficult attitude than the first and in the first couple of months after his birth she said I should go get a vasectomy. I did not take this as venting and waited and scheduled the procedure to happen around Thanksgiving. I mentioned this to her and she was upset and said she was not ready and wanted to wait a year. I cancelled the appointment. During the next year we never really had much of a discussion about having more kids. She later told me that she talked to the councilor at her school about the issue. We both were at fault about not bringing up a serious heart to heart discussion about children. I later had the procedure, which I thought (assumed) I had her blessing on. She did get some pleasure out of this though because I had to have the procedure TWICE. I was the 4th person in 30 years that had to be redone by this Dr. On top of that, each time I was unable to be properly numbed in certain areas and I felt more than I should have, like cutting and snipping.

The vasectomy issue will be big and will never be forgotten by her. She said she was not even sure that she wanted another child, but the fact that I got the procedure made her feel unvalued and like she had no say in what happens with us.

The talks went into whether I thought we were fixable. I told her yes and she said she does not know. I wrote about this above.

What she has expressed is that she is stuck basically in the middle; nothing pulling her towards D and nothing pulling her towards reconciliation.

We talked about the kids being the most important part of this. She said she did her research and everything shows that staying together is the best for the kids. Then soon after that she looked at me and said "but I will not be in this marriage just for the kids." My interpretation of this is that I cannot just let the kids bring us back, I need to do my work.

My feeling is that she is leaning more towards us, but not much, for the simple fact that she says she likes me. I think she is scared to start reconciliation because she is scared of getting hurt again. I am scared to get hurt too, but I use this fear as motivation towards making personal growth advances and never to be back to where we were.

She talked about asking friends and family if she overreacted. They, or most of them, said that she did overreact. I said that I did not think so, those feelings she had were real and those people were not in her position nor did they have her feelings. I know she didn't come to her decision quickly, even if it was made in a highly emotional state.

During the talk we went back an forth between R talks and jokes and talking about what we have been doing at work, etc.

She also asked me what would be different in our relationship. I started talking about how I felt different and she stopped me and wanted specifics. Oh Boy! Pop quiz hot shot. So I talked about how things that mattered to me don't as much. I talked about wanting date nights, and alone time for us. I talked about being empathetic to her and respecting her opinion and wanting to listen to her and how she felt. She said she really feels that I don't know or like her, this being a result of my actions making her feel not respected. I was weird being put on the spot with her wanting examples about how things will be different. There were more things I would have wanted to say that I remembered later, but that is okay it is not life or death.

During the time together I was acting "as if" we were a happy couple again, except for physical touch. When we were talking she was a little cold so I turned up the heat and wrapped her in a quilt. Got her a glass of water when I got one. Gave her the tissue box when she got weepy. It is still a little weird being what I call an 80% spouse.

She grabbed a jacket out of the closet and got in her car and then turned back around. I jokingly thought to myself "here she comes for her hug, HA!" I knew she wasn't, but I laughed. She was cold and wanted a heavier jacket so I told her to sit down and let the car warm up and covered her back up with the quilt. We talked a little more about being cold because we both have lost a good amount of weight. I talked about being thinner and in better shape than ever and when she looked at me I gave her the ol' eyebrow lift (to be silly). She said I was a dork and I said "I was a dork when you fell in love with me and I figured it might heat her up a little bit." She chuckled and left.

No hugs or physical touch except me helping her up by the hand off the couch. But we did sit next to each other on the couch and it was the closest we have sat when being casual.

All in all another small step forward for us.

[gogofo]

Here is where I think I go from here.

Open up communication more than one text asking about the kids at night. I will start asking about her. If the cheese is there I may start to call.

I will be bringing it better and better every time we are around each other. Being conscience of every change I want to make with me.

Keep up with my GAL and my 180s. Keep up with watching my weight and exercise to I look oh so pretty. She said it made her mad that I looked good and have been taking care of myself. She said it still hurts a little when she sees me looking good and with new clothes. At that moment I wanted to jump up and start a fashion show for her with all the new clothes she has not seen wearing.

So is this piecing, pre-piecing, or the same situation?
To me it feels like we may be on the cusp of piecing. If she opens up to want to work on us with dates, etc, I will know we are piecing.

[gogofo]

I also invited her to the little egg hunt I am going to do for the kids at the house on Sunday morning. I did this before the talk and she accepted.

She offered the kids the whole day or at least through dinner because she said that her family was not doing anything. Her brother and SIL are fighting with her parents and the W and I are in our sitch, so her parents called off their dinner and said they are going fishing instead.

I mentioned it above, but I am not sure if I should extend an invitation to join my family or not. I would enjoy her there, but that is because I still love her. I do not know how the rest of the family would take it. I know they would be happy, but there would still be an awkwardness about it.

The only people she has saw since BD are my aunt, they work at the same place, and my mom who she saw at the grocery store last weekend.

I think it would feel quite pushy or forced for her to be there but I do know she misses my family.

I also do not feel it is my responsibility to help her with seeing or visiting with my family. If we were both active and working towards us I would be open to it, but right now it feels awkward.

Does a WAW flat out say they are ready to work on the R or do I need to show her what it would be like before she says she is ready?

[Wonka]

GoFo,

It all sounds positive in many aspects. Yes, it is tough having R talks and trying to navigate through this emotional minefield. Overall, you've held your own pretty darn good!

Two of the arguments we got into were about rocking chairs for the babies rooms. I was opinionated and dumb about the whole process. The chairs were for her and her comfort, but I was an idiot about it and made her feel disrespected and unimportant. I should have let her have any chair she wanted, in retrospect I was such an idiot about it and unable to look at how she felt about the situation.

In retrospect, it is a silly argument. Couples do argue over silly and small things sometimes. What I am hearing W saying here is that she does not feel like she is an equal partner in this process. For future instances, you would want to ask her thoughts and opinion on some joint purchases or decisions that have impact on you two or the whole family. I hope you are open to apologizing for this and telling W that you would be more mindful of this type of thing. THEN BACK THIS UP WITH CONSISTENT ACTIONS.

I did not take this as venting and waited and scheduled the procedure to happen around Thanksgiving. I mentioned this to her and she was upset and said she was not ready and wanted to wait a year. I cancelled the appointment. During the next year we never really had much of a discussion about having more kids. She later told me that she talked to the councilor at her school about the issue. We both were at fault about not bringing up a serious heart to heart discussion about children. I later had the procedure, which I thought (assumed) I had her blessing on.

I want to ask YOU this: Why did you feel that you had to have a vasectomy? What was the urgency from your POV? I mean it is not due to health reasons like heart surgery or some other critical surgical procedure. Having a vasectomy is an elective surgery. Think on this one carefully.

We talked about the kids being the most important part of this. She said she did her research and everything shows that staying together is the best for the kids. Then soon after that she looked at me and said "but I will not be in this marriage just for the kids." My interpretation of this is that I cannot just let the kids bring us back, I need to do my work.

Then become the best spouse that she would be a fool to leave.
One way to address this is to try to include W more in decisions and choices that you are weighing on various matters such as child care, school, hobbies, work, purchases, etc. Saying "what do you think" would do wonders for W and your marriage.

She said she really feels that I don't know or like her, this being a result of my actions making her feel not respected.

Pay ATTENTION to this gem from W. What are you going to do going forward to address this particular concern for W?

Now that you've had this long R discussion, I am seeing that you are wanting to prolong this by extending more invitations to W. I'd say..."slow down" and pace those invitations. You would not want to inundate her with a gazillion invitations and smother her. Make her miss you a bit.

I want to say this as gently as possible with the goal of making you aware: this is not piecing or R. Your W isn't clear in either direction. Just leave her be to allow her time and space to process this talk.

Good job!

[gogofo]

I felt like I needed to have the vasectomy because I was scared of having another baby by accident. I let fear and feelings of inadequacy overcome me and I no longer trusted birth control. I was flat out scared.

When our first child was born my W was in active labor for 14 hours. The child had to be assisted in birth with the head forceps and pulled out. At the end of it she almost needed a blood transfusion. I was terrified by the time it was all over.

With the second child the W was in stage one labor for a week. She broke out with a rash on her face and hands which could have been a sign of fetal issues and liver issues with the mom. We did not have access to a doctor to check the rash and the OBGYN had no idea what it was.

Neither was a smooth pregnancy and the first birth would have taken my W or son or both had it not been for modern medicine.

These two things coupled with the very difficult second child had me terrified of having another. I did not even feel comfortable trusting birth control. I know all these reasons are selfish but this is how I felt at that time.

[gogofo]

Then become the best spouse that she would be a fool to leave.
One way to address this is to try to include W more in decisions and choices that you are weighing on various matters such as child care, school, hobbies, work, purchases, etc. Saying "what do you think" would do wonders for W and your marriage.

She said she really feels that I don't know or like her, this being a result of my actions making her feel not respected.

Pay ATTENTION to this gem from W. What are you going to do going forward to address this particular concern for W?

Now that you've had this long R discussion, I am seeing that you are wanting to prolong this by extending more invitations to W. I'd say..."slow down" and pace those invitations. You would not want to inundate her with a gazillion invitations and smother her. Make her miss you a bit.

I want to say this as gently as possible with the goal of making you aware: this is not piecing or R. Your W isn't clear in either direction. Just leave her be to allow her time and space to process this talk.

Good job!

I will have to work in asking her input about things without seeming like I am in pursuit.

About W feeling like I don't know her, I am going to be studying her and trying to notice details that would have failed me before. I will be listening with my heart and even jotting down notes about her. I am also going to continue to be fully supportive of her and what she is doing or wants to do.

I also need to review one of the books I read that had tips for paying attention and knowing your spouse.

I understand that we are not piecing, I realized this after thinking about where we are with each other. I can give her the space and time she needs and not overwhelm her with invitations. We are going to have dinner again this coming Thursday. I do not think I will invite her to Easter dinner, she can miss me.

I am good at giving her time and space, have been this whole time. Easter morning is the first time I have invited her to anything since starting DBing.

[Barrybran]

Hey Gogofo, what is the book you read on rebuilding trust?

[gogofo]

"I love you but I don't trust you" by Mira Kirshenbaum

It is more for the person who has lost trust, but I found it very insightful.

[Barrybran]

Ok, fair enough. Thanks.

[labug]

I am a workaholic because it negatively effects my life.

I'm in the middle of a very busy work weekend but wanted to say BINGO! (and I am thinking about what changes I need to make because this is beginning to affect my life in a negative way.)

In AlAnon the only qualification you need is being a friend or family member of a problem drinker. There is no mention of addiction. All we know is that someone's drinking is or has affected our lives in a negative way. The person may have stopped drinking but continued the same behaviors because they didn't cut out the root of the problem.

Alcohol or any -holic behavior is the symptom.

[gogofo]

Well I just forced myself to not do something that I really wanted to; I did not invite my W to Easter dinner. I really wanted to, but I didn't.

The W came over and we hid eggs for the kids while they showered. Played with them for a little, had lunch out and then went to Wal-Mart so she could buy some stuff.

The whole time I thought about how nice it would be to have her at Easter, but I kept with my game plan and did not invite. My reasoning being that she needs to miss me, amongst other things.

When at Wal-Mart she did mention that I should bring my mom some flowers, "women like flowers." Ah nice dig. But I thought here was a perfect time to show that I value her and her feelings, opinions, etc and I grabbed a bouquet of tulips.

She left with the kids, I'm a little sad, but off to dinner with my family.

Hope everyone's Easter is as happy as possible.

[VFL]

Well I just forced myself to not do something that I really wanted to; I did not invite my W to Easter dinner. I really wanted to, but I didn't.


The W came over and we hid eggs for the kids while they showered. Played with them for a little, had lunch out and then went to Wal-Mart so she could buy some stuff.

The whole time I thought about how nice it would be to have her at Easter, but I kept with my game plan and did not invite. My reasoning being that she needs to miss me, amongst other things.

When at Wal-Mart she did mention that I should bring my mom some flowers, "women like flowers." Ah nice dig. But I thought here was a perfect time to show that I value her and her feelings, opinions, etc and I grabbed a bouquet of tulips.

She left with the kids, I'm a little sad, but off to dinner with my family.

Hope everyone's Easter is as happy as possible.

I respect your willpower! I'm trying to do the same thing. Trying to distance myself so that maybe she can see that she misses me. but I dont want her to think I don't want to be around her anymore. Tough catch 22 isn't it?

Excellent decision on picking up flowers on her suggestion. Shows you respect her opinion. Small things like that go far in the mind of a woman, at least in my experience.

[gogofo]

It wasn't easy. I got a little emotional wave washing over me so I took the Vespa for a ride, which I bought for her, to clear me head. Went back to parents and it was too quiet. Mind wanted to wonder and was second guessing my decision but family started showing up and the wine also helped.

Not gonna lie, I missed her being there but it was probably best she wasn't there.

[VFL]

I know what you mean. I was without my wife and daughter today because they went to my in-laws (4 hours away) on friday and got back this evening. I didn't go because I had to work last night and i'm working tonight.

[labug]

Just a little adjustment here, distance yourself because that's what the WAS wants and it's the right thing to do for you. By taking an action and expecting an outcome involving another person we're back to our old controlling selves, trying to manipulate an outcome.

The change has to be within you.

(there are many here with different opinions on this, this is mine)

[gogofo]

LA, are you saying distance myself because of the morning we spent together or because I was going to open communication a little more?

By taking an action and expecting an outcome involving another person we're back to our old controlling selves, trying to manipulate an outcome.

I get eager after we have our talks and the small steps that are happening. I need to settle back down. Today I have a little unsettled feeling after yesterday. I think the fact that it was a holiday made the emotions sting a little more.

I did send her a text message yesterday thanking her for doing the egg hunt because the kids really liked it. We then had a little message session when I asked how the kids were doing, and if they had a good evening. It was pretty pleasant exchange.

LA, in your opinion is pressuring her and not distancing myself?

[ye21]

Hey Go!

In my opinion, you are doing great, its normal that you have this feelings, but its important that you keep working on this, the more solid your changes the strongest will be within you, so if she comes back they will be more natural for you.
Still early in your sitch so I believe she needs more time to see all this, it took her time to get to this point so it will take care time to accept this new situation.

You dont want this to happen again so its important that you keep working on yourself and detaching to be able to make a aolid ground of happiness and independency in case she comes back

[gogofo]

So today I have been tired and down emotionally. Nothing really to base it on, but when I am tired I get to feeling a little panicky and down about my situation.

I was looking at my bookcase yesterday evening and I think the book with the comments is gone. I know I thought about moving it, but don't think I did. I think the W may have taken it. If she did take it that means she might have been told by whomever wrote it that they dropped it off at the house.

And since I am down today this has been creeping in and out of my brain all afternoon.

Is the book issue something that should be brought up in person?

I think it probably would be best to be able to see her reaction.

Don't know, just thinking out loud right now.

[HollyAnn]

It's too late now, but I would have brought up the book comments.
It is concerning that she has p!ssed someone off, and you don't even know who.

Plus, it was delivered right to your door; kinda creepy and scary.
There are people who really go off their rockers and can get violent when they are betrayed.

Just watch Snapped if you don't believe me.

[Barrybran]

You seem to be doing well in your situation so you need to ask yourself this: can you move forward with your wife and let the book slide or will you need to know what it means so you can move forward?

Did you work out what will be a dealbreaker for you? If you need to know about the book and:

- You feel there could be something that is a dealbreaker, why put it off until things are better with your wife only to break it off later? or

- You feel that you may be disappointed/angry/upset but there aren't dealbreakers, do you think you could put the book on the backburner while your relationship with your wife improves and deal with it when there is more trust between you and your wife?

[gogofo]

I think a deal breaker right now would be a continued affair. But, a big but at that is I think I can put the book on the back burner for a while and wait for trust to improve. I know there was an EA, but much after that I don't have any ideas or evidence to anything else besides the book comments.

I am reading a book on dealing with A, even has a cover blurb from MWD. I will see where the book takes me with new knowledge and coping skills contained within.

I never thought my W would remove the book from the house so if or when I decide to bring up the subject it will be a little different than just handing it to her.

[ye21]

I think a deal breaker right now would be a continued affair. But, a big but at that is I think I can put the book on the back burner for a while and wait for trust to improve. I know there was an EA, but much after that I don't have any ideas or evidence to anything else besides the book comments.

I am reading a book on dealing with A, even has a cover blurb from MWD. I will see where the book takes me with new knowledge and coping skills contained within.

I never thought my W would remove the book from the house so if or when I decide to bring up the subject it will be a little different than just handing it to her.


Gogofo think about what the universe is telling you now:

You have trust issues.... You are not trusting your W, if you dont have any proof that she is lying or in an A why are you not trusting her?

At the end if she is having an A or not its her problem, and she is gonna have to deal with that.... I had told you this before, you guys are not together now so its not important for you to ask, its a way your trust issues are telling you: I was "right" I could not trust her......

My advice, work on your trust issues and develop strenght in that field, if she is in an affair, it would ended coming up and one day you will know, the way that you react that day will be different if you work on your trust issues....

The problem its not what she is doing, the problem is your flaw or not trusting, so far you have zero proof, once you are confident in yourself, the fact that she was in an A will not matter after what you went thrue, so thats my little advice...

If you confront her, she might dennied it maybe because its true or get upset because its not true and you dont trust her....
So its a lost lost game no matter what.

Hiwever, think about this, if she is in an A she might took the book because she realized she is doing something unfair and maybe she is fighting her way out of it to be able to give the new Gogofo what he deserves ( thats an option)

Let things die out of important by their own wait, dont interfere, the universe its taking care and as you told me many times....how will telling her something help you on the long term?

[labug]

LA, are you saying distance myself because of the morning we spent together or because I was going to open communication a little more?

By taking an action and expecting an outcome involving another person we're back to our old controlling selves, trying to manipulate an outcome.

I was referring to this, sorry that I wasn't clear.

Well I just forced myself to not do something that I really wanted to; I did not invite my W to Easter dinner. I really wanted to, but I didn't.

My reasoning being that she needs to miss me, amongst other things.

[labug]

The speak now or forever hold your peace ship has sailed. Love to mix metaphors.

Why did you hold on to your knowledge about the book (especially the threatening msg) knowing that an affair could be a deal breaker? Why would you bring it up now? Really think that through.

[Positivespin]

Go-

[Positivespin]

Go- Do not invite you W to any extended family type events until you take care of the Elephant in the room. How do you think you would be able to make any decision about your future without knowing what the hell is going on?

No snooping - The book was delivered to your house. Have the nasty talk and get it out of the way- If not move forward assuming, and being accepting of, the worst......and never ever bring it up

All the books and all the steps toward R will be for nothing unless you choose one of the above two options............

[Wonka]

The speak now or forever hold your peace ship has sailed. Love to mix metaphors.

Why did you hold on to your knowledge about the book (especially the threatening msg) knowing that an affair could be a deal breaker? Why would you bring it up now? Really think that through.

GoFo...^^^ is the crux of the whole matter. What are your thoughts?

[gogofo]

Why did you hold on to your knowledge about the book (especially the threatening msg) knowing that an affair could be a deal breaker? Why would you bring it up now? Really think that through.

I did not bring it up because I wanted to move forward with building trust and bring up the book after were possibly in a better position. I also did not want to derail us possibly moving forward. I didn't know if I could bring it up with a non-threatening tone. And the last reason is that I did not want to create more chaos before Easter, I wanted it to be smooth for the kids.

A continued physical affair during our separation would be a deal breaker for me to continue contact. I would have to set a strict boundary. It being a permanent deal breaker if a PA was stopped, I still have to work through these feelings.

No snooping - The book was delivered to your house. Have the nasty talk and get it out of the way- If not move forward assuming, and being accepting of, the worst......and never ever bring it up

All the books and all the steps toward R will be for nothing unless you choose one of the above two options............

The infidelity books are to help me through this and figure out if I need to bring it up or if I can accept the worst and never bring it up. I will probably bring it up with her, just want more knowledge of my emotions and a way to bring it up without attacking.

I am pretty positive that she is having a continued EA and or confiding in a male friend for support during the separation. I don't know if this is a boundary setting issue for me or not. I am in a mental stalemate about what to do about bringing up the book and setting boundaries.

Any tips on bringing up the book since I don't have it now. I assume it would be best to do it in person but our schedules are crazy and don't think it is appropriate to text about the issue.

[gogofo]

The speak now or forever hold your peace ship has sailed. Love to mix metaphors.

Why did you hold on to your knowledge about the book (especially the threatening msg) knowing that an affair could be a deal breaker? Why would you bring it up now? Really think that through.

GoFo...^^^ is the crux of the whole matter. What are your thoughts?

I would bring up the book issue now because it is eating at my brain and is the elephant in the room. I think I need to know what is going on so I can work through this and the possible fallout from it.

This is also the same reason for reading the infidelity book, to work through my feelings and emotions about the EA and possible PA.

When we have got together and talked I feel relaxed and feel my love for her. I think that there would not be anything we couldn't work through, if she was committed to reconciliation.

Last time we talked she said she did not know if we could work things out, I think we can. I thought about bringing up the book during the last talk, but I didn't feel it made a difference in my desire to reconcile.

[ye21]

Last time we talked she said she did not know if we could work things out, I think we can. I thought about bringing up the book during the last talk, but I didn't feel it made a difference in my desire to reconcile.

I see here a big key, she is confussed and dont know what she wants yet....
Would you be able to control yourself and respect the fact that she is not ready to let you know whats going on yet?
Once and if she changes her mind, you could talk to her about the book or about your thoughs of her having a possibly A.
In my opinion if you talk to her now about something that you are suspecting, it will create distance on her, I dont see any disrespect from her or cake eating so far, so I dont see why would you arise the situation to a more tense one. If you continue to work on yourself I strongly believe that if she is in an A, that A will evenctually fall by its own weight...

Situation will be different if she starts cake eating or playing games....

[Wonka]

GoFo,

Decisions, decisions, decisions! Not easy at all.

How do you plan to approach W about the book's comments? Are prepared for all possibilities that may arise during the discussion?

What is plan A for if she confirms she's engaged in an A?

What is plan B if she fudges the fact that she is probably engaged in an A?

What is plan C if she acts like nothing actually happened?

What is plan D if she has some inkling about the book's comments?

And what is your boundary?

Yup, a lot to digest before actually bringing this up with W.

[labug]

hmmmmI didn't feel it made a difference in my desire to reconcile. Again, then why bring it up, except to tell your W you're concerned for her welfare. But, had that been the case, you would have brought it up immediately.

About that stuff eating at your brain, how much of is fact and how much is your fear?

[labug]

I missed the post that contained this-

I wanted to move forward with building trust and bring up the book after were possibly in a better position.

I'm having a hard time being clear with this but I don't think you can keep secrets (on either side) and simultaneously build trust.

However there are some secrets we agree within ourselves to keep, but we deep six them, never to see the light of day. It doesn't seem you're there, so again think about your motive in talking with her. What do you need to know?

[HollyAnn]

The book comments should have been addressed.

They were directed at your W by someone who was obviously very distressed by W's antics. Adultery is a very risky behavior; victims of adultery can really wig out and take vengeance.

You could bring it up in a non-threatening way by saying, "The comments in the book that arrived at our home were very disturbing. I feel like our family could be a target now and I worry for our children ."

[HollyAnn]

I found this link to be helpful:

http://www.zurinstitute.com/infidelity.html#myths

[gogofo]

Thank you everyone for all the advice and points of view. I have a lot of digesting to do before I decide a course of action.

[gogofo]

I have been thinking a little and reading and I think I have figured out why this emotion has washed over me yesterday and today.

Leading up to the talk we had on last Thursday I was excited about the possibility of hearing she would be ready to work on the R. You can see the excitement in my posts around that time. The talk was not bad and probably a small step forward.

Coming up before the talk I read a book on resorting trust, as she said previously she did not know if she could trust me. I usually get motivated when I learn new techniques that could possibly by used in the R.

I, like always, was ready to go and ready to make some progress. I did some assuming or mindreading into text messages from the W before the talk let me get excited and probably lightly set some expectations. I know that mind reading and expectations will only hurt me because the WAW sets their own pace.

I understood this, even during our talk. When she said she did not know if she thought we could be fixed, I told her I wasn't pressuring her for an answer.

Then Easter comes and I told myself that I do not need to invite her to family dinner, and I didn't. The emotions were strong that day after the egg hunt together in the morning. When I was at my parents it just seemed sad and empty without the kids or W, I got sentimental. I even left the house and went for a ride on the Vespa so I didn't have to think about them not being there. I fell asleep that night missing and wanting my family.

Sunday and Monday night were not stellar nights for sleeping for me so I have been tired the past two days. I know when I am tired things seem extreme in the situation and my mind wonders. When I was in this state and noticed the book being gone, my mind broke the little bit of work I had done about the EA.

So over excitement about the reality of her feelings about working on us, the strong emotions about Easter, and two days of fatigue have really done me in.

But all this being said, I still need to figure out my emotions and subsequent actions towards the book comments and possible EA/PA issues.

[labug]

I would agree.

Help me out. I was searching to find your writings about her ?EA/PA. Can you point to it?

Also, in reading I noticed a lot of anger about her "rewriting history" and it seems your anger has cooled now.

Her version of the events in the past are just as valid to her as yours are to you. (she doesn't seem to be mentally ill) The truth is probably somewhere in the middle but we all have our perspective.

Really think about that, you are just as sure you're right as she is that she's right. Have you gotten past that now?

[gogofo]

So here is how my evening ended.

Went home and laid in bed for an hour reading before I was going to head to my parents for dinner. W called and I let it go without answering, usually answer when she calls. Waited about 5 minutes and called her back. She was taking kids to dinner and said they wanted me to attend if I could. I act like I could change my plans and show up to dinner.

I find it interesting that when I have the kids they never ask for mommy to show up or for me to call her, etc. It makes me feel unbelievable proud of myself that the kids ask for their daddy when they are with mommy, she used to be all they cared about which is common for young kids.

I felt conflicted about going because I have yet to really act scarce and busy when she extends an invitation involving children. It was one of my 180s to always be available for kids and family and it is also hard not to want to attend when we have enjoyable “family” times. I also had plans to take the kids to look at a train that was going to be in town yesterday at 7:30, so this would make it easier. I also want to show the W who I am now and make love bank deposits with her.

Dinner was good and I brought up that I want to take the kids to see the train from 7:30 to 8:30. Earlier during dinner she said she had a couple papers due and one was due Wednesday at 12:00. I said “you are welcome to join us, but I don’t want to interfere with your school work.” She agrees to go but wants to change out of her dress, which I say was probably a good idea since she would be stealing all of the attention away from the train; she was embarrassed/flattered.

Went to her place, hung out for 20 minutes and loaded up for our trip. I was excited to see the train and when we approached the depot, no one was there. In my excitement I failed to see that I had the correct day of the week but not the date, I was off by two weeks. I laughed and was embarrassed, she teased me and said the “I was never good with details”. Note one more are of person improvement to work on.

For “punishment” I took her to Starbucks and got the kids cookies and headed back to her place. The kids wanted to go to the park so we stopped and played together for a while and headed home. I ask to stay to put kids to bed and we showered and read books and sang songs together.

When done I get a drink of water and slowly start to head out, but admit that I hoped I was invited to stay a little longer. She says she is going to have a glass of wine and offers me one.

We sit on the couch and have casual conversation for a little more than an hour. Talk about her school and work, my work, current event things, etc. This was the first time we sat and just talked, no R talk or stress from needing to talk about it, just a great conversation like we used to have when we were doing well in our M. I even brought up past conversations we have had about things and showed that I do “like” her and pay attention to her. Trying to bust down the opinion she formed of me when she left.

What a whirlwind of emotion yesterday was, but it ended in a positive note (for me). Don’t know if this goes against DBing, but it felt right and I was paving the road back as smooth as possible. I know that she needs to miss me and I need to be scarce, but when things involve our kids I find it impossible to say no. From my point of view it seemed to be another small step forward. I feel anytime I can show her what her (our) lives could be like if we reconciled, it is the right thing to do. We both were really relaxed and comfortable around each other and may have been more helpful than some of the more serious conversations we have had in the past.

Now back to working on me (using her teasing comments) and leveling out my emotional roller coaster I was on the past two days; and also back to working through my EA/PA feelings.

[gogofo]

Help me out. I was searching to find your writings about her ?EA/PA. Can you point to it?

It is probably scattered so I will rewrite it.

At BD she said that we had drifted apart and she was done. She had been talking to someone she had known for a while (I assume a coworker) and said that she wondered what it would be like to date someone who cared about what she is interested in.

I think they had started talking about her work, doctoral program, etc. and she felt paid attention to and important. I was in a fog of extreme overwork during this time.

I had snooped on facebook and saw some text messages with another friend that I would say also bordered on an EA, not sexualized but definitely supportive of her. It was also probably secretive as he is married, they have known each other longer than I have known her, but I would assume his W would not approve of their messaging. She was not getting much support from her family and felt betrayed by some of her friends. I think he was one of the only people to provide support, but I think there could also be some attraction there too (she is beautiful).

I think his W could be one source of the book with nasty comments.

I have no evidence or suspicion of a PA, but do not know for sure. The only evidence I have is the book which could be interpreted as evidence pointing to a PA or not pointing to a PA. I assume it was a woman who wrote it and would figure that if they thought my W was in a PA they would have called her a "sl*t" not a "c*nt".

In my heart I think she was receiving emotional support from one or multiple males during the end of us and after BD. I don't feel she would get to a sexualized EA or to a PA but I want to prepare myself by reading about it just to be sure. Don't want to be caught off guard.

Also, in reading I noticed a lot of anger about her "rewriting history" and it seems your anger has cooled now.

Her version of the events in the past are just as valid to her as yours are to you. (she doesn't seem to be mentally ill) The truth is probably somewhere in the middle but we all have our perspective.

Really think about that, you are just as sure you're right as she is that she's right. Have you gotten past that now?

I have, quite some time ago. What I know that is important is how she felt, not the details. The details can change in recollecting what happened, but the emotions will still be there. One of the best pieces of advice I received was from my mom who in her nursing sensitivity training was taught when dealing with patients in difficult situations:

"You do not have to agree with why they are upset. What you need to do is understand their emotions. Their feelings are real and justified to their interpretation of the situation, whether you agree with them or not."

After processing this when the W would unload on me I would separate her "words" from her feelings. I try to understand how she felt in these situations and where I had contributed to it.

I used to argue with her about details of situations and now understand that I need to listen to how she felt about the situation, not pick it over for incorrect details (from my point of view). It shouldn't matter what day something happened, or who was there, or what color something was; what matters is how she was feeling in the situation.

This has been one of my bigger 180s, understanding her feelings and emotions.