This, That and The Other

[labug]

ed. I've learned is that what I judge in others is most usually something I don't like in me.

[SemperFi00]

labug, thanks for you comments above.

I have some initial thoughts in response that I will transfer over to my thread so that this one doesn't become cluttered with my situation.

[labug]

But I made tea and coffee.

There's enough room at this table for everyone.

[SemperFi00]

But I made tea and coffee.

There's enough room at this table for everyone.

love this ^^^ gotta try to keep a sense of humor right. ok - I'll respond here for now and see how that goes......

:-D You say that in jest, I know but if you're anything like me, there's a strong streak of how you really feel.

^^^^ was completely joking.

I think that years ago – when I was younger and just out of the Marine Corps (and a tad arrogant ). I had a tendency to be much more black and white and judgmental of others actions. Often never saying anything to them but certainly internally evaluating and would make comments to W about what I had observed, seen on TV, etc…

I have developed to a place where I think I generally have (or at least try really hard to) the attitude that people are trying to do the best that they can with what they have available to them (knowledge, resources, etc….). In other words, very few people wake up and start they day with an intent to be miserable or do poorly in whatever they do – even a WAS.

I do still have a low tolerance for situations where people deflect responsibility, try to take advantage of elderly or children and people who are not honest/loyal/committed to what they say they will do. Also have a high standard for myself and my family which I occasionally have to reign in.

In cases involving ^^^^ I suppose there is a chance that what I say or act would come across as judgmental – especially to those who know me well. Will have to think about that some more…

One of the interesting things about this whole experience is that the longer it goes (and the older my kids – and I – get) the less judgmental I think I am – and certainly the less I say about any of it to anyone, now including my W. In general, I believe that I am optimistic by nature, will help anyone with almost anything and tend to give folks multiple chances – to a point that often borders being taken advantage of…

I don’t think that this has always been the case, but in general I have been moving this direction over the past 15 years or so – maybe that’s what comes with age, children and maturity!!!!!!!

What has been interesting is that in some ways W and I seem to have switched places. Over the past couple of years she has become more judgmental, angry, quick to react emotionally, etc. Hmmm………

I have to shake my head and let go of judging others just about every day. But what I've learned is that I judge in others is most usually something I don't like in me. I can have the tendency to build myself up by tearing others down.

I don’t think that my tendency was ever to tear others down – if anything it was more of an evaluation of how I either would or had handled things differently / better. So not berating / belittling others but maybe the evaluating is just as damaging anyway. Agree on the point that many of the traits that bothered me the most relate to things I don’t like in me.

For me I think that quiet judging / evaluating also speaks to a certain level of insecurity. I often will not say much or provide an opinion on something unless I am relatively comfortable that I am accurate – if not I will just keep opinion to myself until I have more information and can be more knowledgeable.

SF, leave your interactions with you W to the side. How are your interactions/relationships with others? Do you have friends who you regularly do things with? (do you judge me for ending a sentence with a preposition? )

Certainly would never judge anything grammatical – have you seen some of my ramblings???

I have a couple of close friends that I do things with occasionally – not sure what constitutes regularly though. Some of the things include an annual ski day, play in a ff league together, couple of golf tournaments, grab a drink every now and then, watch football/baseball games together, have coached youth sports teams together, college madness, etc…..

Trying to work on increasing this though – I am an introvert and homebody by nature. Trying to even incorporate some of this into worklife by scheduling lunches with colleagues – w/o a specific purpose in mind other than conversation.

Also, think about your spoken and unspoken agreements with W about money. You've brought up the subject of money several times in your thread. It's important to you. How does that inform your Rs?

Coming back to ^^^^ but this post felt like it was getting long.

[labug]

My judging is rarely ever overt, it usually takes place in my head but then my reaction to the judgment can come out sideways, what some might call passive/aggressive. I want to get the point across that I know better in subtle "helping" or manipulative ways. It's taken a lot of being aware of my patterns to realize this and let it go.

I know that the less I feel in control of me, the more I attempt to control things outside of me.

[SemperFi00]

Also, think about your spoken and unspoken agreements with W about money. You've brought up the subject of money several times in your thread. It's important to you. How does that inform your Rs?

Coming back to ^^^^ but this post felt like it was getting long

$$$ is almost always an interesting / touchy topic isn’t it? I remember going to our pre-M weekend and one of the couples saying that the 2 most important (and most argued about) topics in a M are often $$$ and sex.

Since about the 4th or 5th year of our nearly 22 yr marriage, I have been the primary $$$ earner. We made decision that it was important to us to have one parent at home with young kids and we decided at the time that it should be W.

In general we have been blessed in the fact that $$$ have never been a major issue for us. Have generally always been able to have the lifestyle we want while saving substantially for retirement. What I have come to learn over the years is that W leans more to the “spending/enjoy life” side of the equation and I am more of the “save/delayed gratification” side. Both of us grew in families that had enough but not much.

Until awhile after B-date, this wasn’t a problem – at least not an acknowledged one. W managed the budget, bills and household finances and I went to work to earn/provide. There were a couple of very minor arguments when cc balances had grown and W had hid that from me – 2 different times writing me letters and leaving them in the car for me to find outlining the situation and telling me how sorry she was about not telling me about the situation.

At times I was irritated about the spending and lack of $$$ mgmt but just dealt with it and rationalized that what I was getting in return (i.e. parent at home with children, household upkeep, companionship, life parter, physical connection, etc….) was worth it and addressing the issue was not worth the conflict.

The family dynamic for me growing up was similar – dad was saver, mom was spender, didn’t have much “extra” and often paid bills late (sometimes after power, water, etc was turned off). Ughh – not fun times!!! I am sure that is one of the reasons that I am still frugal to this day even though we have been blessed in that area and are nowhere close to being the same situation as growing up.

While all of our setup may have worked when M was ok and W was engaged, I am finding it harder and harder to not feel angry/resentful/hurt/disrespected etc… when similar things happen now.

Does any of that make sense????

[labug]

$$$ is almost always an interesting / touchy topic isn’t it? I remember going to our pre-M weekend and one of the couples saying that the 2 most important (and most argued about) topics in a M are often $$$ and sex.

Yes, money is interesting and it can be a trigger for me. That's a disclaimer. We do sometimes give money more power than love in our Rs.

When you heard that wise fact at your pre-marital weekend, what did you do with it? Probably nothing, because we all think were bullet-proof when we're young.

In general we have been blessed in the fact that $$$ have never been a major issue for us.

Then why is it an issue now?

Have generally always been able to have the lifestyle we want while saving substantially for retirement. What I have come to learn over the years is that W leans more to the “spending/enjoy life” side of the equation and I am more of the “save/delayed gratification” side.

Does your W agree with your assessment? Do you see this as either/or? Have the 2 of you discussed these differences?

Until awhile after B-date, this wasn’t a problem – at least not an acknowledged one.

Think more about this. Are you being completely honest? If it wasn't a problem then it wouldn't be a problem now.

We pack those resentments into a bag and then something opens the bag just a little and they all come exploding out. Resentment can be silent but deadly.

W managed the budget, bills and household finances and I went to work to earn/provide.

Did your W want to do the finances? Had she had experience with it? Did you talk about money much?

There were a couple of very minor arguments when cc balances had grown and W had hid that from me – 2 different times writing me letters and leaving them in the car for me to find outlining the situation and telling me how sorry she was about not telling me about the situation.

Minor as assessed by you or did you both agree they were minor? How were things resolved?

Were they truly minor if you still remember them today?

Why do you think she wrote a letter to tell you about the money issue?

At times I was irritated about the spending and lack of $$$ mgmt but just dealt with it and rationalized that what I was getting in return (i.e. parent at home with children, household upkeep, companionship, life parter, physical connection, etc….) was worth it and addressing the issue was not worth the conflict.

It's interesting that there's no mention of love here.

Would you handle the conflict differently today?

Did you think she wasn't capable of change?

What were you afraid of?

The family dynamic for me growing up was similar – dad was saver, mom was spender, didn’t have much “extra” and often paid bills late (sometimes after power, water, etc was turned off). Ughh – not fun times!!! I am sure that is one of the reasons that I am still frugal to this day even though we have been blessed in that area and are nowhere close to being the same situation as growing up.

But you're still back there and reliving that scenario. Why?

There can be a bigger box than the one to which you're accustomed.

When you let go it crates space for change to happen.

While all of our setup may have worked when M was ok and W was engaged, I am finding it harder and harder to not feel angry/resentful/hurt/disrespected etc… when similar things happen now.

It's OK to feel all of those things. The difficulty comes when we begin assigning blame to others for how we feel.

Where does your hurt come from? What is your mind telling you about what's going on?

The other side of the coin could be that she feels she's given much more to the family than you have over the years. That's mind reading but not without precedent and she has said something alluding to that. As I think I've shared with you in the past, I've done the whole gamut of mom duties, SAHM, worked PT, worked FT with my H as the SAHD. The easiest was the last. It was difficult emotionally to be away from the kids so much but otherwise, cake.

There is a whiff of "I make the money so I get to make the rules." You know how you can be standing outside on a cool, clear morning and you get a whiff of wood smoke? You can't quite tell exactly where it's coming from or whether it's a camp fire or a forest fire but you know there's a fire.

I brought this over from ces' thread.

I think that if more folks did this ^^^ there would be lot less of the selfish, me first, instant gratitude, only do what makes me happy, inability or lack of desire to work hard traits present in the current culture.

What happened to this guy "I have developed to a place where I think I generally have (or at least try really hard to) the attitude that people are trying to do the best that they can with what they have available to them (knowledge, resources, etc….). In other words, very few people wake up and start they day with an intent to be miserable or do poorly in whatever they do"

I know this is a lot or questions and you don't have to answer then all here. Just think about them, really reflect on choices you've made in your marriage and how you might do things differently, or not.

This is your life and your journey, only you have your answers.

[SemperFi00]

Lots to think about but love your perspective and the continued interest in helping me (and many others here......)

Thanks labug!

[labug]

It's Mother's Day and although I see the holiday as a bit contrived, I'm happy to have both of my sons here with me. S25 and his GF are here from Canada to attend his University graduation next week. (Crimson, I'll be in your territory)

I've been doing some letting go in the last couple of weeks in the S25 dept. Now that he's graduating he will really be moving on and I'm realizing on a gut level that he won't ever "live" here again. I know many adult kids to move back but even then, it's not the same I would guess. So there's been some sadness and happiness but it's all good.

I had a dream this morning of S25 at 4 or 5 yrs, holding onto my neck crying because he missed me and he loved me. I was comforting him but also enjoying that moment of 'mommy, you are everything.'

I know I'm not 'everything' to him now and that's as it should be but I will always be his Mom.

And some people say our dreams don't mean anything.

S21 is making great strides in him treatment. It's as if he had this revelation that it's time and he's moving forward. he even talks openly with his H and I about his struggles. This is groundbreaking as he's NEVER done this in the past. His shame kept him stuck.

I recall many therapy sessions (mine) saying to IC, 'if he would only talk about it so I could understand.'

Patience and love, patience and love. After trying everything else it all comes down to those 2 things.

In the M, things are going well. It's amazing that we can actually talk about conflict now. I'm much more open about it than he is, but he's catching up. I think it's scary for him but the more open we can be, with a side of patience and love, the easier it gets.

We had a funny set-to yesterday about keys, etc on my key ring. We were in my car so he had my keys. One of the things on my ring is a small tape measure which I use a lot. We went to a store, i saw a rug and wanted to measure it. I didn't have my tape as he had taken the attachment off the key ring. When I asked where the tape was, he gruffly said "I'm not carrying all that stuff in my pocket." (he was already in defense mode and this is not the first time I've heard about my having too many things on the key ring that he doesn't want to carry.)

Now in the past we could have turned this in to a day-long resentment-laced-with-anger fest. Stony silences, sideways insults, etc.

I let it go and said I'd come back some other time and check it out, meanwhile I'd check the measurement of the rug we want to replace.

Later I brought up the incident of the keys and mentioned that I heard anger when he said he didn't want to carry all the stuff on my key ring. "I'm wasn't angry and I didn't sound like that."

"That's what I heard."

"But I wasn't."

"Okay, if this comes up again how about you look at me, smile and say: "I love you to death and I don't want to carry all that stuff on your key ring!"

We both burst out laughing.

There are also many ways we can deal with this issue.

Later that same day...we went out to dinner, H driving my car. S21 was home but left while we were out. When I walked up to the back door it was locked. I looked at H knowing the key to that door was on the section he removed from my key ring. We looked at each other and laughed.

But H, being who he is, had a key to the front door hidden away.

Life, it's good when you let it be.

[labug]

"There are also many ways we can deal with this issue."

Mindfulness has taught he not to sweat the small stuff.