I'm trying to be painfully honest - so I post half the time now with a cringe just waiting for people to shake their head, and say, "There he goes again!"
A lot of thoughts to pour out here, mostly journaling, still digesting and going back over all your responses... Now, the initial emotional blast is gone; I'm surprised that I'm not angry, jealous, bitter, etc. Thinking amazingly clearly - I still don't understand it.
I spent quite a bit of time the last 24 hours reading everything I could get my hands on that gave perspectives both from an affair spouse and the cheated spouse.
There is a book for cheating spouses called "How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair…" by Linda McDonald, and one of the most confirming lines in the beginning of the book really struck me: The most important quality that an unfaithful spouse needs in order to successfully regain their offended partner's trust is that the betraying spouse "gets it". "Getting it" means the straying spouse understand the wrongness of their behavior and the depth of the pain they have caused their spouses.
I think the fact that W was so absolutely broken has helped me. She made no excuses, no justifications, no trying to blame me - she just sobbed, and took full and complete responsibility. She even said she told OM that we were completely done back then, just waiting on divorce papers, and took that blame on herself too. (She told him a few days later, it was over because it wasn't right, and she still wanted to be married to me)
One thing that was huge once I really got it: the PA means nothing. I don't mean that it's acceptable. But W isn't attracted to OM either sexually or emotionally. It's the disconnect and emotional distance between us that led her to think her situation was so bad that her only outlet/choice was someone she would never have even been friends with normally.
W and I talked again last night, in person. (paraphrasing) W: "There is no use for us. You will think I'm a whore, and can never live this down. You will never be able to trust me again. I don't deserve you, and I'm not worth anything." Me: "The PA in and of itself means nothing to me - I know OM is nothing, just a symptom of our problems. I was really angry and emotional at first about it, but really, I feel betrayed by you, and that hurts worse than anything I could ever imagine. However, what you said is not true. You are of infinite worth to God. You are of infinite worth to me, and I love you unconditionally." (W broke down again, just like these huge wracking sobs, so I just hugged her.) W: "I had to tell you because it has been eating at me. I don't know how I could have sunk this low and done this; what is wrong with me? XH1 cheated on me four times and I thought he was a disgusting pig. I want to be married to you so badly. I miss you like crazy. I love you so much. I think about you all day, and most days I can barely eat or sleep because I want to be with you." Me: "I appreciate your honesty. I know things are crazy right now, but how do you want to proceed?" W: "I want to be married to you 100%, and nothing else has ever come close." Me: "Ok, and you know I feel the same. You already know that you can't have any contact with OM, you already are dismissing the divorce, so I think we're on a good path. Let's take some time to get our heads clear."
She told me "I love you" probably 10 times through out the conversation. I was sitting beside her and she kept looping her arms through mine, and laid her legs over mine, and laid her head on me - go from holding one hand to the other.
I also found out she went to see a mutual friend last week - she promised to come to this friend's birthday party 3 weeks ago, and just skipped. She took her a birthday present, and broke down and told her she had been an awful friend. To me that's a good sign that she is realizing things about herself on a larger scale than just our relationship.
A friend of mine reminded me of a conversation that he and I had probably back when W filed divorce in August; he had said he believed W would have to hit absolute rock bottom before she would "come to her senses". She was already broke, heavily in debt, embarrassed/guilty, suffering from depression, estranged from most of her family. The PA really was her rock bottom.
My brain is still in a blender. I don't even know if this is not DBing, good DBing, bad DBing; but I knew I needed to talk to her. Someone sent me a post she put on Facebook (I'm still blocked) and she said, "I don't deserve it, but if you think of it, pray for me."
Like you, I am still trying to figure out if what I am doing is good DBing or bad DBing. This whole sitch is so confusing.
You mentioned that you have been reading a lot. My DB coach suggested a book that she wanted me to read - "Surprised by Love" by Dr. Jay and Julie Kent-Ferraro. I cannot recommend the book enough. It tells the story of how they met, their marriage, the demise of their marriage, his affair and their reconciliation after divorce. Each incident that they talk about is told from the wife's perspective (hurt partner) and then from the husband's perspective (unfaithful partner). I learned so much from the book, not just about what my H may have been feeling or thinking, but about myself. Hearing the unfaithful partner explain why he fell out of love with his wife made me look at myself and understand what I had done wrong in our marriage. It also gives you a glimpse into the fantasy world that the unfaithful spouse is living in. The book was eye opening. It really changed how I looked at myself, my H and our marriage.
Jon, don't ever cringe about posting here. The people that respond are beating you with a love stick.
You are so awesome at taking everything in, and maybe you don't understand it at the moment, but to take it all in is huge. Don't expect yourself to understand it all.
I think you're conversation was awesome, and huge for your W. It sounded so wonderful, even made me tear up and I thought my tear well had run dry.
I'm so happy this step has occurred in your sitch. Your R was one sitch I had no idea as to how it would turn out. It was like watching a tv drama 'As the World Turns for Jonf'. So I am really impressed with what you have done, not done, made mistakes, made good choices and how this has all turned out so far. Keep fighting the good fight!
Me:49 H:47 S: 16 T:27 M:25 My EA: 2001 His PA: 10/2007, 6/2013 Separated, but H still in house
Find your Shambala: a place of peace and happiness.
Take it slow and be careful. She sounds extremely desperate, unsure of herself, clingy, begging, etc. - like she's had her own BD (which sounds like it DID happen).
Let the emotions settle down. Figure out what went wrong that led to the problems in the first place, and make sure you two work on that.
Welcome and validate her feelings, but still be a little guarded with your own. My goodness...you've been at this a long time. Taking it slow shouldn't be too painful.
-PM
M:12y - BD:12/11 - D:6/13 - 4Ds
"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy." -MLK Jr.
Actually PM... If you're referring to Jon's 09 registration date, that was back for an earlier marriage... How long has it actually been this time Jon?
I have inferred that EA and OM are one in the same. Is that correct? So this is someone that your W has kept in her life until last Sunday?
Did your w claim that it would be easy for her to remove this person from her life?
I have some additional thoughts, but I am going to hold off on those for a bit.
Good luck Jon.
Me-45 W-44 T-7 years M-3 years (4th anniversary July 13, but we're separated) Kids from previous relationships (s14 d16 mine, s23, s24 hers)
Actually PM... If you're referring to Jon's 09 registration date, that was back for an earlier marriage...
Thanks for clarifying. I noticed his Join Date and started browsing through his old threads - haven't gotten that far yet.
-PM
M:12y - BD:12/11 - D:6/13 - 4Ds
"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy." -MLK Jr.
I'm trying to be painfully honest - so I post half the time now with a cringe just waiting for people to shake their head, and say, "There he goes again!"
Ah...I can tell you that my "chickenshit" rod is now officially broken so no worries there, buddy.
You did a good job in your convos with W and defusing things between the two of you. Affirming your love for W was a very important element in ensuring the the road is paved smoothly for W to return to the M. Although I do need to warn you that there may be some fits and starts in the reconciliation process and piecing together as discarding the OM altogether may take some time. Be prepared for some bumps along the way in respect to the OM.
Now after this intense convo, it would be good for you two to step back and take a breather from any further R talks. Regroup and have some fun moments now that Halloween is here. Focus on that with the kids and enter into a chocolate-induced coma! Have a happy 'Boo'!
Originally Posted By: JonF
My brain is still in a blender.
Isn't it pureed green peas?!
Well done, Jon!
Word of caution: Please remember to watch for your hair-trigger reaction(s) and rein it back when you sense it creep in your head.
Jon, no 2x4 required, you did a great job! You listened, you avoided turning it into a convo about you, you remained calm even though she was really emotional and you didn't rush back into anything. Well done! If/ when you tell her you're ready to work on things, reaffirm your previously stated boundaries with her. Work out something for MC. Check into Retrouvaille. If she's serious then these will be things she WANTS to do rather than obstacles.
@Pud - thanks, your comments are always so supportive and appreciated.
@PatientMan - I know my track on here is a bit confusing, so here's a brief history. XW1 moved out in 2006, I joined in earlier 2009, "officially" divorced in April 2010, although I'd say any semblance of a relationship was gone in early 2007. Dunno why I held on so long... Met W in May 2010, married in Nov 2010 (I know, a short courtship). W started with depression mid 2012, and BDed in Aug 2013. Regardless, I absolutely accept your advice, and I even told W we should take some time to let things settle even though we both REALLY want to be together right now. She actually asked me to come spend the night with her (no sex) because she just wanted to be close to me. Not a good idea!
@2nd - EA and OM are the same, so I'm now just referring to him as OM. He was there last Sunday to get her car. She said he works 14-16 hours Mon-Sat, so over the last month they've maybe seen each other twice, partially because she abruptly ended the PA saying it wasn't right. I'm sure that was a little offputting to OM, but I dunno. W is going to call OM to cut off all communication, and no, she said it won't be easy. He has done a lot of stuff for her, like helping her move into her house, fixing her car, etc, and she considers him a very good friend at this point. Also, he pretty much has no friends, so she knows it'll be hard. But even though she admits it will be difficult, she has given me zero resistance on cutting off the contact. She is almost angry if I say anything about OM, and she will very sharply say, "I'm going to be married to YOU and that's the only thing I want." She even told me she'd be alone before she would ever continue a relationship with OM.
@Wonka - Thanks for your kind words. I don't expect the new few weeks/months to be easy, so I keep working on the next hour, and then look ahead to the next hour.
------------------------------ Funny story: W told me she'd be off work at 12:30 today, and asked me if I wanted to meet her for lunch. I had left my phone in the other room, and didn't get her text until about 12:45, so I texted back and apologized, and said I couldn't make it.
She texted me back about an hour later, and said she had gotten stuck at work doing lab work. Weirdly, she then texted me a picture of her lab. I just said, "Oh, that's cool." She called me about an hour after that and said she sent me the picture so I'd know she was at work and nowhere else.
She invited me over again to spend the night. Sigh, I'd love to go, but I know we need space, so had to decline.
Have a happy 'Boo'!