Still walking the path to my own happiness

[RegretfulLA]

My last thread filled up pretty quick.

Walking the path to my own happiness

Continuing our discussion -
Well, it seems that we could use a lot of help on the communication front. I've heard many times that poor communication is very often the #1 cause of problems in a R. I have always had a tough time communicating with my H, for a few reasons:

1) He taught me early on that if I challenged him, he'd take it personally
2) He is not comfortable with expressing feelings such as "I don't like it when you do/say X" - instead it comes across very confrontationally
3) Many times when I have tried to express my feelings or wishes to him he shut me down so fast it made my head spin
4) I get very defensive - my own communication style can be harsh
5) I haven't been good at taking his POV into account

There were so many good comments about this at the end of my last thread, enough to make me think that it should be a focal point in our next MC go-round. I'm thinking if we can focus on communication and co-parenting, it would be a better place to come from vs. the vent-n-blame disaster fest with our last MC and the 2 we tried over the summer. I've also heard that many marriage-focused counselors start here when one person is "done" and the other isn't.

One problem I'm currently having is finding the motivation to continue. Crazyville, you mentioned contempt at the end of my last thread. Here's the quote:

Contempt is any statement or nonverbal behavior that puts yourself on a higher ground than your partner. Mocking your partner, calling them names, rolling your eyes and sneering in disgust are all examples of contempt. Of all the horsemen, contempt is the most serious. Couples have to realize that these types of put downs will destroy the fondness and admiration between them. The antidote to contempt is to lower your tolerance for contemptuous statements and behaviors and to actively work on building a culture of appreciation in the relationship.

Now, I know this was directed at me, but I have to say... this is EXACTLY HOW MY H TREATED ME. He did mock, call names, roll eyes and sneer (and snicker which isn't even listed). Many, many times, he did this. I may have done my fair share of sh*tty stuff, but I never did any of that. So yeah, I've been actively trying to lower my tolerance for that level of BS. It is wayyyy unacceptable, and i have to say that this behavior of his led to my feelings of worthlessness which led to EA #2. (my choices, not blaming him).

I know I could be more outwardly appreciative, loving, considerate, nicer, sweeter, more tolerant, friendly. I vary on all of this. Some days I feel like it, some days I don't. I get that in a M, we have to do this consistently whether we feel like it or not.

Currently, though, as I said, I'm really having trouble finding the motivation. I honestly wish I were more "saintly", in the sense that I could say, "I'm going to do whatever it takes, and it doesn't matter how he treats me in return." The fact is though, it does matter how he treats me in return. H is not being bad at the moment... things are very tense but he's knocked off most of the horrible stuff.

I don't know, maybe I shouldn't be expecting much more than what I am getting. He's agreed to MC, he's agreed to move out, he's helping out somewhat around the house, when asked. But I just can't seem to bring myself to do much more at the moment. I feel like it's somewhat self-protective, but that's where I am. I'm sure he feels the exact same. We've both been so mortally hurt by each other, neither one of us is that keen on risking that again. Even my little baby steps towards him (ex: trying to hold his hand on Xmas Eve) got rejected... it's just becoming too painful for me to be here.

[scaredsilly]

separations can be good. it helped me and my H.

[afa75]

Contempt would most likely come from Gottman, a highly touted therapist / book seller. Google the Gottman Institute for more info.

As far as the hurt you have caused each other, I've got nothing, other than Forgiveness of course. If / when you stumble upon something good, let us know.

Side note, proud of you for continuing to try even when motivation is low.

(((( ))))

[GH31]

And thank you GH31 and FM - your insight into what happens after an A is very helpful. My H did have panic attacks the first time around and also went into a depression which he is still experiencing. I am sorry to hear what you went through. That must have been terrible. I know this has been very hard on my H too.

As tough as it is for your hubby, he must realise that he has to assume some responsibility for his mental health as well. Granted there's much you can do to create safe conditions for him but if he can't get over it he should just quit punishing you and let you go.

Both of you, GH and FM, have been treated horribly by your Ws.

I can't speak for Floydie (I'm Australian, couldn't resist calling him Floydie) but I mistreated my wife bigtime also, for years before the bomb. I didn't go and bang other women but I subjected her to lots of other torment.

GH, when I read your story I was beyond shocked. She F'd with you big time, BIG TIME. I am amazed that you took her back. I mean, that was an unbelievable story.

Yep.

I've no idea how I survived it myself. Seriously it shocks me to read it too.

I was just as unhinged as my wife and completely traumatised. I think the betrayed spouse gets just as deluded and "ill" after a period of time being exposed to stuff like this though.

Like I've mentioned to a couple of other posters an affair acts like a drug in the cheater's blood.

I really hope your hubby has an awakening before too long.

GH31

[RegretfulLA]

Well, here I am, coming to you from my very own bed and it's amazing! H is in Denver this week! I have spent very few nights here over the past 7 months.

I have a call with my DB coach on Friday - we'll see what he has to say about all of this.

GH, I haven't read your whole sitch - what turned it around for you guys?

I know that around the time of 2nd EA, H had been treating me horribly - kind of a common thread in those sitches where there are As and WAWs. I can't say I was really deluded but I was definitely not right in the head... I was not in love with OM2 or even close to it. It's that he simply was interested at a time when I needed a lot of validation. I think back on my behavior with him and it was really creepy because I would just basically demand validation from him, and I kept throwing things at him to see how he would react. I was so starved for any sort of reassurance. It was pathetic, really. I feel terribly bad for the me from earlier this year.

So really, that's mostly what it was. Unmet needs demanding fulfillment. The other part of it was "revenge" towards my H for all the horrible treatment. He would threaten to D me routinely and even wrote a letter to one of my closest friends telling her all about it. She's a therapist btw, and when she challenged him, he called her a loser.

Who knows if H will ever have that awakening. Gottman also talks about the mortal sins in a R, the worst one being "stonewalling" or withdrawal/rejection. If stonewalling were an Olympic sport, H would be a contender for the gold. He really inflicted a lot of psychological damage on me over the years (but I guess he'd say same about me).

It's all so broken, and only way it will get fixed is with time, perspective and willingness on both parts. This is why I chose my screenname RegretfulLA, because I have so many regrets about everything that's happened to us.

[hopefulinga]

I started the Gottman book in August 2011, after our big problems started the first time. I remember reading about the mortal sins and had the same thoughts as you, and also that there was no hope for us based on our behavior. Things did get a little better after that, but here we are again. I don't think I ever finished the book.

Glad you can spend some time in your own bed. It will be interesting to see how H is towards you while he is gone and the reaction when he gets back.

[GH31]

Hello again RegretfulLA,

I have a call with my DB coach on Friday - we'll see what he has to say about all of this.

Great move.

GH, I haven't read your whole sitch - what turned it around for you guys?

Other than the affair ending, I don’t know where to begin answering this.

I do know that when the nuclear bomb detonated I read literally everything I could about marriage and male/female attraction. Anything I could find. I also had three DB coaching sessions as well as three other coaching sessions with other experts very experienced in saving marriages.

I must have read about 15 books, all of them at least twice. Gottman’s Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work is basically tattooed on my brain now, especially his chapter on accepting influence (something I was so atrocious at doing with my wife) and “turning towards”.

I can only really speak about stuff that I personally changed, as “getting” my wife to change or anyone else for that matter was a dead end.

One of my favourite books for years has been Psycho Cybernetics by Maxwell Maltz. A day or two after my wife left I started his 21 day “self image” exercise, completed it, and changed my self image from that of an angry, bitter, cocky and nasty young man into that of an “alpha husband”. I had used this exercise years before to go from being a D and an E pupil to a straight A pupil (without realising what I was doing at the time).

I would mentally rehearse literally every interaction with my wife during my DBing phase, every gesture, facial expression and above all voice tone.

Gottman’s work has become more important for me in recent years. I practise what he suggests to the best of my ability and this makes conflicts when they do occur much less severe.

He actually says in his book that what you do with each other when you’re not fighting has the greatest influence on how conflicts will play out when they do happen. And they happen in all marriages.

So, without even really thinking about it my wife and I chit chat virtually every evening over dinner (after I have put the children to bed), joke about something, share events of the day, make fun of people we know about. If I am on the couch reading and she is at the table writing something (she writes a lot) and she asks me “how does this sound?” I put the book down on my chest and ask her “tell me more” or “why don’t you read it out to me? It’s this little stuff, this “turning toward each other” that Gottman talks about which has made the greatest difference for us.

We always were the best of friends before the bomb but I had a dreadful temper on me and would default immediately to his Four Horsemen, especially criticism and contempt. I virtually never go there now. There was an incident a few months ago where my wife had made a few financial oversights and it led to us having some huge bills to take care of. She hadn’t told me about it and it likely wouldn’t have happened had she told me and had we discussed it together. Naturally I was utterly furious and pre 2008 I would have exploded at her and subjected her to a angry barrage of contempt, mockery and criticism. This time I simply told her ”W, I am going out for a few hours before I say or do something I regret” and so I did. Our conversations once I got back were much more measured than they otherwise would have been.

I know that around the time of 2nd EA, H had been treating me horribly - kind of a common thread in those sitches where there are As and WAWs.

I think so. It’s a pattern you see repeated time and time again.

I can't say I was really deluded but I was definitely not right in the head...

LOL! Tell us more?

I was not in love with OM2 or even close to it .......... I think back on my behavior with him and it was really creepy because I would just basically demand validation from him, and I kept throwing things at him to see how he would react.

So really, that's mostly what it was. Unmet needs demanding fulfillment. The other part of it was "revenge" towards my H for all the horrible treatment.

I heard a lot of this from my W.

He would threaten to D me routinely

I used to say some dreadful things to my wife like this.

I would say ”I love you W, but I don’t need you” which really cut her to the core. If she voiced a complaint with me I would snap at her and say ”Get over it.”. And this is just the tip of the iceberg.

Who knows if H will ever have that awakening.

I hope he does.

Gottman also talks about the mortal sins in a R, the worst one being "stonewalling" or withdrawal/rejection. If stonewalling were an Olympic sport, H would be a contender for the gold.

This jumps out. Stay with me for a minute....

He really inflicted a lot of psychological damage on me over the years (but I guess he'd say same about me).

You mentioned in a previous post that you can be quite harsh in your opinion.

Can you tell us more about this?

Also, those horsemen (criticism, contempt, defensiveness and stonewalling) can be a dance that both of you engage in. Very often it increases in severity with time until the marriage buckles. He writes that half of all marriages end do so within the first 7 years and if a marriage ends this quickly it is usually because of these bitter fights getting out of control. That was certainly the case for us and it was virtually all my fault.

All my wife wanted to do was to love her husband, conceive a baby and have a nice life. She hated conflict (and still does) whereas I actually enjoyed conflict (how depraved is that?). I don’t fear conflict if it comes up but I certainly don’t go looking for it anymore.

It's all so broken, and only way it will get fixed is with time, perspective and willingness on both parts. This is why I chose my screenname RegretfulLA, because I have so many regrets about everything that's happened to us.

I really think it’s salvageable (hell if my situation was just about anybody’s is) but where you start I don’t really know.

Shame and regret are unpleasant but they serve a very important purpose. They ensure you don’t ever repeat your catastrophic mistakes again.

GH31

[afa75]

WowGH,
Amazing break down of her last post. Very insightful.

I was not in love with OM2 or even close to it. It's that he simply was interested at a time when I needed a lot of validation

So what made you choose to end it?

because I have so many regrets about everything that's happened to us.

You are remorseful. That obviously is key. From what I can tell, you are trying really hard to make amends. I too hope your H will have his own "awakening." for your sake.

((( )))

[RegretfulLA]

Thanks for your time GH and afa! Lots to work with here...

So, the big difference I see between my sitch and so many others here is that usually, the person who has the A is also the WAS. The LBS then focuses on becoming the better option.

Once in a while you get a person who has an A and then becomes the LBS. Seems like those situations are much harder to resolve. This is what I struggle with. I fear he will hold that A over my head forever. My stepmother and I have a joke now... that every time H says "no" to anything I ask for, we add in our minds "because you cheated on me" - kind of like adding "in bed" after your Chinese fortune from the cookie. I am sure there is some truth in that, unfortunately.

afa75, you asked why I chose to end it with OM2... that was a no-brainer - H found out about it and completely lost his mind. Done, over that day. It was the first one (which was more of a friendship really) that I had a much harder time ending, and even when I tried to break off contact the universe would put him right back in my path again (2 times this happened).

GH - the turning toward techniques sound so great. I tried so many times (and still try) to be involved in my H's life in that way. Sometimes he talks to me, sometimes he simply says, "I don't feel like discussing this with you (in a nasty way of course). I felt left out from his inner life most of the time, not just left out, KEPT out.

Naturally I was utterly furious and pre 2008 I would have exploded at her and subjected her to a angry barrage of contempt, mockery and criticism.

Sadly, this sounds all too familiar. No one wants to be treated like that and we have to take cover when this happens. I became very self protective. I was reading something that Sandi2 posted - and she said when W's are subject to this kind of treatment they become very vulnerable to an EA. My H has not made this connection yet and still blames me entirely, with zero tolerance, for making a bad choice. Deal breaker, period. He says I could have talked to him about it, but every time I tried to share my feelings with him he shut me down. He actually told me a few times, "No you don't feel like that."

You wanted to know more about my comment that I wasn't right in the head. Well, I was really suffering during the first half of this year. Between moving house (hideously stressful move plus major $$$ to renovate the house we are in - all borrowed) and having a boss from hell, and then having a verbally/emotionally abusive H on top of it, there wasn't much left. Hell, there was NOTHING left. I have used the word "bereft" many times with H and it fits. I'm sure he had nothing left either. We were under tremendous stress and had no skills to deal with it, and no good will to hold it together.

Furthermore, this boss took a lot out of me. I guess you could say I allowed it to happen by staying in the job. It was not the kind of job where you grow, have mentorship, are inspired... it was the exact opposite. She treated me and the rest of the team as "underlings". It was gross. She made me feel less than - passed over for promotions... threw me under the bus in meetings, etc. I ended up feeling very worthless professionally as well. Honestly I have never really lived up to my potential at work and spent a lot of years screwing around before getting serious about a career. So that was part of it too. I spent some time interviewing internally and got nowhere and so my self esteem just depleted further and further and further.

Now, as far as my behavior towards H is concerned, here's my honest version of it.

I think he wanted a W who would defer to him more, who would be more traditional in her role. I always worked full time which left him with a lot of responsibilities with the kids. He had a more flexible schedule so he could do more, and I probably didn't appreciate it as much as he wanted me to. Over time he grew more and more resentful of the set up, even though I am by no means a slacker in terms of tasks.

He sees me as a "steamroller" - the kind of person who makes decisions on her own and seems to not consider anyone else's opinion. That's true sometimes, not true in others. But I think he tended to see it that way because we could not successfully negotiate anything. He does not like to argue and for him even disagreeing about something is a sign of trouble. We all know that's not true, but that's his view.

He sees me as ungrateful and unappreciative. Have never been ungrateful but maybe on the unappreciative side. He has done a lot for our family monetarily and is a great dad, always tried to make everything nice. He took care of me and the kids when I had cancer 7 years ago. Over time it became harder to appreciate those things though when I felt like deep down, he just didn't like me - or when he was filling one tank while simultaneously draining my emotional tank, as if it was a one or the other choice. Lots of contempt going on and I felt like I was walking on eggshells a lot to make sure I didn't upset him with what I was doing or saying. If I did or said the wrong thing I would often have to go into a long explanation which may or may not have been accepted. I felt like I was on trial a lot. I didn't feel very accepted, certainly not loved and accepted as we strive for.

I know I'm not much of a stonewaller, but I can see how I might have been critical, contemptuous and definitely defensive. I was not great at accepting his POV as valid and so I was more of an arguer vs. someone who could just let stuff go.

One of H's biggest issues though was the deception around OM1. I didn't break it off even though I said I would. Part of the problem was that I didn't think there was anything to break off. The other part of the problem was that I felt that my H was not going to come through for me and I felt like I needed a back up plan. I invited OM1 to a party at our house when H did not know who he was, which was crappy, and then 6 months later, he turned up at a party we were at and I spent some time talking to him.

This is what happened. This is what sent H into full panic mode back in 2009-2010. OM1 had no idea of any of this. We saw each other 4 times in a span of a year and didn't speak in between, but it was the deception that was the issue for H. Well, I can't say I would have reacted the same way, but it doesn't matter, it's how H reacted. And the fact that I couldn't understand it or really sympathize or be remorseful then led to a lot of the problems we have now.

So... I think that behavior can be fixed if one really wants to step up to the plate and change. H disagrees - people don't change, he says. I know I don't want to repeat these mistakes in my next R. So I really need to work on changing me, and work on accepting the fact that it may or may not make any difference in terms of my M. I'm getting more comfortable with that thought, but afa is right, I am tremendously remorseful and struggle with my own guilt a lot.

[RegretfulLA]

H called to talk to the boys tonight, loudly announces over the speakerphone that they are getting an iPad mini (in addition to the 2 ipads they already had). He gets this stuff from work and instead of giving it away or selling it, it all sits around our house collecting dust. I have a netbook with no plug that I'm trying to figure out what to do with. I think it got used one time.

I have no desire to talk to him, to hear his voice, to be involved whatsoever. Can't even stand to hear him talking to the kids on the speakerphone. I don't think this is detachment. It feels like done to me. I want my monthly stipend, I want my bed, I want my independence.

Maybe it means I haven't let go of any of the above because I still feel actively resentful and my best way of dealing with it is just not to for a while. I just feel like I want him GONE.