The Lure of the Siren

[Soul.Searching]

I think i have said this on a few threads now but i think we need to just have faith that if it's meant to be it will be. Analysing the effects of everything you say or do, is not good for anyone. You can't predict the outcome. It just holds you back.

[Arsene]

I will say this though Arsene... the difference between my sitch at that time and your sitch now, is that I had laid down that boundary. I may have let her off of the hook too easily, but she knew that boundary.

Your W has no boundaries.

A second difference is that I had much more too make up for. From what I know about your sitch, I was a much bigger a$$hole in my prior R/M with my W than you ever were with your wife. I let that affect many of my choices back then. I hadn't forgiven myself at that point.

A third difference is that when my W did choose to have OM in her life, knowing that I would not be, I let her be. This part I am talking about occurred after the Disney trip. I no longer allowed her to play both sides of the fence. She knew that if she was in contact with OM, that I would not be there for her to lean on or to spend time with.

And it was THOSE times that my W truly had the chance to see that OM was NOT what she wanted. And that what she DID want was me and our M. Yes, it took her time to get passed some other aspects, ie, forgiving me for past hurt, and getting over fear that things would go back to being bad if she did make that leap back towards our M. But it gave her the time to travel her own path... to investigate other life choices that she COULD make if she ended up deciding that they were better for her.

Ultimately, the answer to that was that those other choices were not better for her.

I don't think that she would have gotten there had I lingered around during those times.

Lastly, I was not physically capable of letting myself be in her life knowing that she was having contact with OM. That just isn't me though.

---

It's is funny that you chose to talk about that part of my sitch because I think that it really was one of the top two or three points of the entire ordeal. It was a time that I could have made the choice to do something completely different than I did.

Right or wrong though, I did it my way. And I did travel my own path doing my best to use DB and the advice here to guide me.

I lived pretty much the entire gambit of it all.

So I understand what you are doing Arsene. All I can do is give you advice from what I see on the outside looking in, and based upon my own experience. I will add though that sometimes others do see your own situation better because they are not in the fishbowl. That's why it is easier to give other people advice than it is to follow the same advice yourself. (not speaking about you specifically... but of everyone).

Not going to edit this because I am tired... so I apologize in advance if it doesn't entirely make sense.

Thanks Denver,

Thanks for taking the time to reply in as much depth as you did, and thanks for seeing where I am as clearly as you do.

As you said, my W hasn't got any boundaries yet and that is because I'm not yet ready/in a position to enforce them if she were to cross them.

Another reason for this lack of boundaries is another difference in our sitches. After a few months, your W did come around from being completely DONE to reconsidering her position. Yes, she was still confused about OM but she at least considered the possibility of life with you once again. My W has never been there and she is still DONE. If I were to set a boundary, I am pretty sure she would walk. If she were to reconsider her position, I would insist on NC with OM, and make that a deal breaker.

Presently, I am considering a version of what you once referred to as plan A/plan B and making myself more desirable in her eye. I have seen some progress as you know but I still don't feel ready to act on anything. Right now, she seems to be going through a thinking phase and I guess I want to see this through and continue with what I'm doing, for now. As FY reminds us, Michele clearly states that you usually have to wait out the affair an I'm seeing how far I can go with this without putting pressure on her.

As you may remember, some of my issues were control and manipulation. W even thinks that my standing for the marriage smells of manipulation so any kind of pressure is sure to be seen as more of the same.

To conclude, as I mentioned earlier, the one thing I need to do now is REALLY GET A LIFE. Start focusing more on me and what I want to do for my future. This will have the effect of making me happier on my own and perhaps boosting my confidence, as well as preparing me for the worst case scenario, if it was to happen. It will also help me detach and create a bit of distance between me and W.

MKB, what you said about a sense of shame has been felt here as well and although not the main reason for not divulging my sitch, it has had an influence on my decision. My main reason still is that I don't really know that many people well enough to talk about this sort of thing around here.

Thank you all once again for your time and support.

Cheers!

[Arsene]

FY you seem to be mistaking the DR approach with the do not upset the WS at all costs approach. Michele does not promote being a doormat. Being polite and honourable and respectful is not being a doormat.

The end goal is not having your wife with you.

If that is your goal then its just round two and you will be back here again down the road. This is the mistake that Arnse is making with his version of the nice-guy bo-peep approach. No boundaries and no structure. Pick what you want to hear. Tune out the rest.

The end goal is to recommitte to a new relationship built around communication, truth, and boundaries and knowing you are going to be fine if you chose a different path.

With all due respect CB, I don't think I can separate the twofold purpose of being here as well as you do. I am doing what I'm doing to become a better person, yes. But I would never have come here if it wasn't first to save my marriage. I wasn't looking for a self-help book when I found DR. I was looking for a way to save my family.

Although I accept the importance of going through our changes for ourselves, the added motivation is that it might save our R. When I go through hell, the picture in my mind that pushes me to carry on is not of a very good version of Arsene who is happy on his own. It's the picture of a very good version of a happy Arsene standing by his very happy family.

Now, right or wrong, mistake or not, as long as "I" am the one who will live with the consequences of my actions, I will listen to the advice here and in DR and judge, based on my knowledge of my sitch and the help given, what course "I" will take. I am sorry CB that you seem to be taking offense because I am not doing exactly what you say but no need to make it personal mate. I said before that I want to see all the different perspectives so as to base my actions on the most complete resource possible. You and I obviously have different styles and that is ok, or at least it should be, and there might come a time when I choose a tougher approach but that time is not now.

You are right about the end goal mate, and for the time being I would like this end goal to still be with my W so I'll do what it takes to keep this an option.

Thanks CB, for you time.

[chatterbug]

You follow the motto a happy wife is a happy life.

That is your mistake. You repeat it over and over. You say you have a plan and that you will get there in time. But your actions and words do not match up. When it is pointed out to you the defence and reflections start up. The difference between my saying it to you and a few of the other guys here is that I am saying it minus the sugar coat. You have a whole site here to read. History that goes back almost 13 years. You have the choice to read and see what works and what does not. You have the choice to read where people came back and said the mistakes they made that put them into the same place. You have people here who have saved their marriages and people here who are in piecing and working on their marriages. You have people here who saved themselves.

There is three consistent themes through the successful ones.

Boundaries. Self Respect. Personal Growth.

1 out of 3 does not cut it.

Nor does hope.

I could go through and post your theme over and over throughout the history of this site. But that is for you to discover. There is no offense nor do i take it personal. I freely offer my help on this site. If I did not want to I would leave.

Your other big problem is that you do not think this.

Tough approach = Boundaries. Self Respect. Personal Growth.

You have it in your mind that tough approach means being an ass and shaming and being selfish.

Why? Because it takes away from the equation of a Happy wife is a happy life.

What you going to do in December when your self time limit hits its mark?

When I read your words I think.

All thrust and no vector.

If you want me off your threads say so. I will stop writing. But if you want those nagging thoughts in the back of head stirred every once in awhile then I will continue to write this theme to you over and over.

[ForeverYoung]

FY you seem to be mistaking the DR approach with the do not upset the WS at all costs approach. Michele does not promote being a doormat. Being polite and honourable and respectful is not being a doormat.

Doormat is in the eye of the beholder. Please reread Michele's section in DR on dealing with a spouse in MLC and take back your "do not upset the (MLC) spouse at all costs" comment. She most certainly outlines a path that most would consider "doormat", (I know I did when I read it) because her goal IS to save marriages at all costs. Sparing EGO is back seat for her.

Not saying I necessarily agree with this, or that I could walk Arsene's path, (pretty sure I couldn't) but her words are what they are.

The end goal is not having your wife with you.

If that is your goal then its just round two and you will be back here again down the road. This is the mistake that Arnse is making with his version of the nice-guy bo-peep approach. No boundaries and no structure. Pick what you want to hear. Tune out the rest.

The end goal is to recommitte to a new relationship built around communication, truth, and boundaries and knowing you are going to be fine if you chose a different path.

Semantics. Yes, the end goal is "to recommit to a new relationship", on this I'm sure we all agree. Having your wife with you doesn't not include that. Well, not forever anyway.

[chatterbug]

You do not understand what I wrote FY.

Interesting thread you posted. You should go read at the outcome of the posters on that thread. As I know most of those posters on this forum and in the real world.

The OP wrote this as well

I post here, because... I think too many people go into piercing too early, their spouse came back too early or they are too eager. If the LBS is too eager to please the WAS...to forgive when forgiveness isn't sought out... I dunno. My place is here.


Seems to be a theme here.

[ForeverYoung]

Interesting thread you posted. You should go read at the outcome of the posters on that thread. As I know most of those posters on this forum and in the real world.

Yes you do, and there is certainly much value in that. But how many relationships do you actually know the outcomes of? Dozens? Hundreds? Are they primarily from this board? What about the hundreds of thousands of other ones? I doubt there are any valid statistics regarding overall outcomes per technique here. Not that it would even matter if there was, since every situation is different, and what works in one relationship may be a game ender in another.

Like with the “After the Last Resort Technique” advised by many in this thread. Michele in DR:

[quote=MWD]However, you shouldn’t do it (After the last resort technique) unless you are prepared to end your marriage because that’s just what it might do. However, it might serve as a wake-up call to your spouse that you love him/her enough that you are prepared to let go, then back off completely. Don’t spend time together. Don’t speak on the phone unless it’s about you children. Have as little face-to-face contact as possible. Don’t do nice things anymore. Don’t call. Don’t e-mail. Don’t initiate contact of any sort. Don’t allow your spouse to feel that there is a relationship between you any longer. Continue this emotional cutoff until your spouse gets the point that there will be no relationship of any sort until the OP is completely out of the picture.

This last, last-resort technique is one that will force you to take a strong stand. It’s not for the faint of heart. Once you make the statement that you’re done, you have to be willing to follow through. If you waffle, you will lose all of your credibility. So don’t use this method unless you’re prepared to see it through all the way to the end.[/quote]

Is the Last –Last Resort Technique truly the best chance for Arsene to save his marriage and propel him to the new marriage he wants with his wife? Is he ready to make this move, or for the possible consequences of it?

You mention that the LBS being too eager to please the WAS seems to be a theme here. So does the rush/push to the “After the Last Resort Technique”, I’d say.

Like our buddy Cadet likes to say, this is all a crap shoot, there are no guarantees.

[25yearsmlc]

I guess deep inside, I am embarrassed because it turns out she isn't the perfect person I thought she was.

THAT is it right there ^^^. Exactly what you need to come to terms with. It is what is at the heart of every action you take Arsene.
But you are protecting her. You are protecting her from the people that you know, and you are protecting her from your D.

I agree with Chatter that you need to stop protecting her.

That doesn't mean publicly humiliating her. It means just being upfront about the situation. Let her deal with the repercussions of that.

While I agree that he should stop being in denial AND that it's not great for his d, (b/c what d8 NEEDS to know is that Arsene and SHE will be fine no matter what. It seems as if all hope for happiness is pinned on what wife does. NOT GOOD for d, or Arsene...)


But I also think part of the reason he's not telling others is HIS PRIDE IS WOUNDED...he's embarrassed that she rejected him....Who likes saying "My wife left me b/c I was very hard to live with, she told me to change but I didn't. And now she's got OM". I mean, isn't that also a possibility?

For me, I was embarrassed about my W's actions too. I felt fooled as well.

How I handled it. I was open with everyone, including SS and my D, about the status of things. Just the bare bones. I did not offer details. I did not seek to embarrass my W or put her on the defensive. I was just honest. And if anyone ever criticized her to my face, I did defend her. I did take the heat for why we were separated. But after a while, I got sick of defending her. Instead, I learned to just politely excused myself from the conversation.

The bottom line is this. It is not your job to protect your w from ANYONE about the choices that she makes. It is also not your job to make anyone judge her in any particular way. IMO, you should be open and honest about the facts, but let people come to their own conclusions. What that means for you W is, quite frankly, her problem to deal with.

If you live your life well, focus on you and your D, and continue to make the right choices, it won't matter what other people know... even if you reconcile.

I have had to deal with the natural negative backlash against my W since our reconciliation. All I say is this, 'if I can forgive her, then, as my [insert relationship, friend, mom etc], you will forgive her as well.'

You deal with that when, if, the time comes. And it can be done if you are just upfront with people about what is going on and your feelings about it (even if your feelings are 'I don't want to talk about it').

^^^ this makes sense to me.

But in my sitch, I found that the more folks who knew details that reflected poorly on my h, the harder it was for ME to hear their input.


And I fear that if my h knew what others had said, he would not have the same r's with them that he does now.

So YES I protected him b/c it would have made it harder on ME and HIM and our kids to reconcile.

He was welcomed back into the family in part b/c I did protect him---NOT BECAUSE I wanted to protect HIM, per se, but to help the "cause". Hope that makes sense.

Finally, I told my youngest that "we're going to be fine no matter what" and that HER happiness was my priority b/c they're the most important people in my life. I'd describe how her life was going to be stable and good, regardless... In OUR sitch, that meant no sudden moving away or leaving her friends or school behind.

In YOUR sitch, Arsene, it sounds as if a move doesn't bother your d. She said she wanted to move or change schools??? So, whatever it takes so she knows there's going to be a roof over her head & and food on the table, and you, then she'll feel reassured.

***BUT I fear that if your w gets financially stable, SHE'LL take your d. Right now you both are living paycheck to paycheck, right? How stressful.

Since she gets custody there, IF she wants it, we have to ask why she has not.

Isn't the single biggest reason she does not have custody,a financial one?

So, what's to stop her from finding financial support from OM (or a new OM) and then taking d back?

I don't see her as preventing you from seeing d, but once SHE is established, why would she still have d with you?

And then what? Hoping for the best but preparing for the worst, is key here.

Do you believe it's possible for you to find SOMEONE, way down the road, who could be a decent step mother to your d? Can you see any value to your d seeing a healthy monogamous marriage, with the new improved you as the h?

I know your goal is still reconciling. I get that and I support it. But you do need to plan on being happy, regardless.

What would life look like if you and your w are divorced, but it's a life in which you are happy?

Envision that for a minute and get some details...

And if you won't even let yourself THINK of that, it's a lot harder to not obsess about your w b/c you are pinning ALL your hopes of happiness in the future on her. BUT you are the person in charge of and responsible for, your happiness.

[keep_going]

25 - the last part of your post - it hit home with me...

I don't mean to hijack here. I think like I have been in a similar space as Arsene. I do feel stuck and reading your post I realize that I do not have any visions of what my future looks like - I need to work on that.

Thanks!

[Arsene]

CB, I've got enough things going on in my life right now and I don't really want to spend too much more time on this difference of opinion.

I don't expect things to be sugar-coated but I sure don't need to have them sh!t-coated either mate.

You have to chill and realise that one may listen to and value your opinion and still not follow your advice. There are more than one ways to succeed and I am sorry if I am following the one recommended by MWD and not yours but hey, it's her book I bought and it's her advice that I will follow, primarily, until it stops working for my sitch.

You may not think I have a plan but that is because what I call a plan doesn't follow your opinion. Am I consistent? Hell no. I'm going through hell on a daily basis so it's tough to be consistent. I have setbacks and doubts. Sometimes I come on here with a new idea, a new attitude, which I voice and swear to uphold until it, or I crash. Then I get myself back up and move on.

I am growing and learning at my own pace and I totally appreciate that you would like to save me loads of hardship and aggravations but the same way we can't tell a WAS what to do because they need to figure it our for themselves, i guess you can't tell a LBS what to do either. We all have to figure it our for ourselves. You may not have noticed it, but I am also consistent in many ways, mainly in following the LRT, which you seem to be confusing with the After LRT.

FY makes many good points in his post.

Yes you do, and there is certainly much value in that. But how many relationships do you actually know the outcomes of? Dozens? Hundreds? Are they primarily from this board? What about the hundreds of thousands of other ones? I doubt there are any valid statistics regarding overall outcomes per technique here. Not that it would even matter if there was, since every situation is different, and what works in one relationship may be a game ender in another.

Like with the “After the Last Resort Technique” advised by many in this thread. Michele in DR:

However, you shouldn’t do it (After the last resort technique) unless you are prepared to end your marriage because that’s just what it might do. However, it might serve as a wake-up call to your spouse that you love him/her enough that you are prepared to let go, then back off completely. Don’t spend time together. Don’t speak on the phone unless it’s about you children. Have as little face-to-face contact as possible. Don’t do nice things anymore. Don’t call. Don’t e-mail. Don’t initiate contact of any sort. Don’t allow your spouse to feel that there is a relationship between you any longer. Continue this emotional cutoff until your spouse gets the point that there will be no relationship of any sort until the OP is completely out of the picture.

This last, last-resort technique is one that will force you to take a strong stand. It’s not for the faint of heart. Once you make the statement that you’re done, you have to be willing to follow through. If you waffle, you will lose all of your credibility. So don’t use this method unless you’re prepared to see it through all the way to the end.

Is the Last –Last Resort Technique truly the best chance for Arsene to save his marriage and propel him to the new marriage he wants with his wife? Is he ready to make this move, or for the possible consequences of it?

You mention that the LBS being too eager to please the WAS seems to be a theme here. So does the rush/push to the “After the Last Resort Technique”, I’d say.

Like our buddy Cadet likes to say, this is all a crap shoot, there are no guarantees.

CB, I'm not asking you to stop posting. I said (so many times it seems) that I value every perspective as they allow me to be better equipped to make the best decision for my sitch. In fact, I acknowledged that I might have to go your way at some point in my sitch on many occasions.

I'm also not asking you to sugar-coat what you say. What I am asking is to not be so demeaning and judgmental towards other opinions/people. I've got enough negativity to deal with down my end and don't really need to be made to feel like an idiot when I come on here. Try using the better communication skills you must have learned while you were DBing to get your point across.

Thanks for your time.