Letting people live their lives and GALing...

[AntoniaB]

Ha ha Cadet, I can totally answer this! I read a book last year which is historical fiction called Alice I Have Been which is about the Lewis Carroll/Alice controversy from her perspective, but it's not entirely accurate to real life. There is a big author's note at the end that describes which parts of the story are real and which are conjecture. There is also a book called The Lives of the Muses which IS accurate, by Francine Prose, and there is a chapter on Carroll's "muse" and is historically accurate.

Ok this might be a long post till I explain, just warning: Carroll was never comfortable around adults. He was a strange person and very introverted, and he had this fascination with photography, especially of children. Now in the Victorian era, children were seen as "angelic", almost cherub-like, when pictured in photos. They were idealized. The controvery came when a photograph of Alice Liddell was made by Carroll where she is wearing a peasant girl's dress and she has this sort of seductive look on her face, and the dress shows a fair amount of skin. Children had to stand a long time for the photo to be developed, meaning that this look seems deliberate, no accident. It's a very adult look on the young girl's face. Between this, other photos, and the sort of obsession Carroll had with this child, this controversy arose suggesting some impropriety between him and Alice, at least in terms of how he saw her, but no one will ever truly know.

From what I've read Carroll was bothered when children grew up and lost their "innocence." This is why he preferred children as photographic subjects and why it seemed he did not keep relationships with young girls when they became older. By most accounts he wrote the Alice in Wonderland story to entertain Alice Liddell and her sisters.

In terms of MLC I've never read anything that suggested he was in MLC, only that at worst, there were suggestions of pedophilia, and at best, just a personal attachment to the innocence children represented. But this fascination of his seemed to be with him his whole life--it's not that he aged and then suddenly wanted to be around young girls, like so many in MLC who want to rediscover their youth. It's more like Carroll seems a perpetual child in some ways himself--a childlike mind stuck in a grown man's body.

I have talked with a member of the boards about Carroll's photography and we agree that people get worked up over these photos now because we are so wary of pedophilia, but that if we were in the Victorian era and evaluating them, we'd probably find the photos not risque at all.

So I hope that answers your question, and you can read either of those books to get more info.

[Cadet]

Ah I was right you did know the answer.

Sounds like he was a strange character and certainly Alice In Wonderland is almost as strange as MLC.

Well professor you did a great job with that lesson and I thank you for that.
So I learned something new today and I guess I am ready to try again tomorrow.

[beatrice]

Cadet - I do agree that both of the Alice books, and particularly 'Through the Looking Glass' describe the different way that MLCers see the world that makes sense only to them. Let me try another theory here about why this is so.

I have been reading a long and fairly scholarly book called 'The Master and His Emissary' It is about the work and relationship between the two hemispheres of the brain and represents a summary of the reeasrch and the author's personal views.

OK, I am getting there with this one . . . Logic is a left brain hemisphere function, and certain types of mental illness including schizophrenia are thought to result from an imbalance in the flow of information from the left brain hemisphere [lbh] to the right one which is the seat of emotional empathy and all sorts of other functions which makes us 'human'

Carroll, as you doubtless know, was a dstinguished mathematician, and in both of eeh books there are many many logical puzzles, and discussions of language, from the point of view of a logician.

So, maybe the reason the the Alice books describe the world of MLC could be because they describe a disassociated state where logic is taken to its ridiculous conclusion. It demonstrates the limits of lbh thinking, unmoderated by the rbh, seen through the eyes of a child, and therefore ridiculous, and yet hard to argue against because it is logically consistent.

MLCers, it seems to me, shut themselves off from their deeper selves, and create a reality which makes sense only to them, and to a few crazy people they surround themselves with. The OP is often unstable emotionally, if not actually mentally ill [not always of course - I am talking about a tendency]

Anyway, just a thought, since you mentioned the Alice books . . .

[ericmsant2]

I'm dealing with constant anxiety because I can't get used to being alone.

Is dating someone going to help you deal with the anxiety of being alone?

I wonder if I will EVER be a normal healthy person emotionally. I really do.

What is a normal healthy emotionally person looks like? Personally, I think it is a matter of perception and ACCEPTANCE. I think I am normal emotional person even though I prance around in a pink tutu (just kidding). My point though is….don’t you define normal? Don’t’ you define what emotional health looks like. Each of us are different Antonia and so I would ask…is your definition based on what SOMEONE ELSE thinks or says is emotionally healthy?

It's that I know that I've had "issues" emotionally my entire life.

AND KNOWING is really half the battle. IMO (and according to my therapist, sometime all you can do is ACKNOWLEDGE and ACCEPT what and who you are. For example, I have and to some extent still have abandonment issues – I know this, so I work hard to TRY and make sure that my choices are not driven by this. Am I perfect? No. Will I ever be? No. It is a part of who I am so I have made peace with it. Any partner that I am with would hopefully understand it. So instead of wasting a ton of energy trying to “rip it out”, “change it”, etc…I focus on accepting it and not allowing (as best I can) to have it drive me.

I want to be connected to people, and I want a relationship with someone.

Then connect!

And I'm tired of watching my life go by year after year alone for the most part while I'm not sharing companionship with someone else. I could die tomorrow, you know?

How do we learn? How do we grow? IMO, we learn by doing, by taking chances, by learning (AS BEST WE CAN) from our mistakes. No one Antonia is perfect. You ain’t, I ain’t…your next partner isn’t.

But I also feel like I'm this very damaged person inside. And the tough part is that I feel that another year or two alone isn't going to fix the damage. NOTHING WILL.

1) Stop saying you are damaged.
2) Stop trying to forecast the future, LIVE FOR JUST TODAY! Enjoy what you have today.
3) Maybe stop trying to FIX it and ACCEPT it. Accept that you, I, your mom, my mom, your dad, Cadet, AJM, CAT,….hell everybody has issues. The issues though should NOT hold us back. DO NOT get fixed overnight and in some case not for a verrrryyyy long time. You cannot undo the past – you can though change how you view/approach and deal with the future.

I'm a perfectionist and I'm too hard on myself and I'm anxious and my anxiety can cause me real problems, and I've tried for 3 years now of therapy to fix it all, and I just can't.

Maybe you don’t have to “fix” you. Maybe you can just be YOU.

I don't want to hurt someone who seems so together.

If they are “so together” they will make a choice that is good for them. You really do not need to HELP them.

I don't understand how to deal with someone who is as kind as this guy is. I really don't. I'm used to having to work to entice someone to me, to open up. I don't have to do ANYTHING of the kind with this guy. And it's positively freaking me out.

I think you are smart enough to LEARN how to deal with someone like this guy. Hell you will never learn unless you try. Oh…and you will make mistakes along the way…just like he will, I will and everyone else.

[AntoniaB]

So I had the date--4 hours of talking at a bar/restaurant. Very good time. The prevailing thought I have had after is that it's no "work" on my end...I am totally being 100% me and this guy seems to like me and have a real interest in me. I don't have to draw him out of his "shell" or chip away at his emotional wall.

This is just all new territory for me. I know it's a good thing, but it's just not my norm. I think this all goes back to the fact that I've never been around a couple in a relationship of my own or my family's that didn't involve the woman trying to deal with a man with emotional issues, and being this very ambitious person, I sort of make it my goal to help someone out, i.e. "I'm going to be the woman who helps him change." This sort of thing is always made worse when I meet a guy (like the guy I just stopped seeing) who expresses a real desire to change in his words (till I see the actions don't match).

So I guess if I'm going to keep seeing this guy, I have to learn to just relax with the fact that I don't have to "do" anything.

One thing I realized is that I think I'm an adrenaline junky, ha ha. I think it's a shot of adrenaline to be the person who can once in awhile draw someone out to connect who is emotionally unavailable. I got addicted to that shot of adrenaline. If I do'nt have to draw someone out, there is this evenness in the interaction that isn't all volatile. So I guess I need to break that addiction, so to speak.

[irishblessings]

Antonia -
Congrats on the date and just having the ability to just be...
You deserve it:)
IB

[AntoniaB]

Well that turned out to be a huge bust. Had a second date. Awkward from the get-go. Could not put my finger on it at first but something about the guy was progressively seeming more and more "off." At some point he launched into some sexual comments/language/profanity that really came out of nowhere and just seemed inappropriate for the conversation considering I barely knew him. I was kind of unnerved/uncomfortable, so I sort of turned away from him in my seat and just acted more detached, figuring I'll sit here awhile longer, make my excuses about working tomorrow, then leave. So I did. I just had this radar going off like crazy that something wasn't quite right.

I got home and an hour later he emailed a long very manipulative email where he admitted to having scrutinized all my body language all night, reading me from my every move. From this he decided I was only interested in being friends. Well, from the beginning, I'd said I was only capable of something serious if I grew to have a friendship and trust with someone, so yes, this was true. But then he started in on what was it I said or did to "turn you off" and that sort of thing, and then also begged me to tell him that he was MISreading him, yadda yadda. Just felt like the email was creepy, I really did.

I replied short and sweet saying "I think I'm just not ready for a relationship and it was nice to meet you, thanks again for dinner." This wasn't good enough. He came back at me again with lots of smiley faces and winks, in another email wanting to know exactly what it was that he did so he could "learn" from it. I thought I'm not engaging in this game. He knows where I work. He feels a bit predatory to me. I'm trying to diffuse any potential problem. So I say "it's not you it's me. I guess I just didn't realize that I wasn't ready for a relationship till talk seemed to drift from friendly chit chat to other things." (by other things I meant his intrusive sexual questions of me). He emailed again saying "well I don't see anything that wasn't entirely innocent, I mean our conversation was no different than the conversations I have with my friends."

But you don't ask someone you JUST MET about whether their first sexual experience post-divorce is "wild" and "crazy" and if you found yourself doing deviant things. And I'm not about to bring this up with him. I'm afraid he'll keep bugging me or worse yet, show up where I work.

I've stopped returning his emails. I'm entirely weirded out by this and now I swear I will NEVER go on another online date as long as I live. I realize there may be nice people out there but this was just bizarre. I'd rather be alone.

[job]

He sounds like a real nut job. Please be careful and you are wise not to respond to his emails.

BTW, I am on the waiting list w/Amazon for your book.

[PEI]

OMG the stories I could tell you about online dating!!!! Holy Smoley! lol

[AntoniaB]

PEI I have a few other stories and my one friend always says I should put them in a book--but I totally don't have enough for a book. We should all pool our stories some day; I'm sure the book would be hysterical. I'm dying to tell the story of "the guy who smelled like an old, wet towel" to a rapt audience, lol.

Thanks Snodderly for the support!! I know amazon keeps selling out. They likely get just a few copies at a time then have to request more from the publisher. I've seen people get it faster from the publisher directly than from amazon--it's www.mcfarlandpub.com, search by title or author. Amazon had it discounted for one day--no idea why--but they put the price back up to full now and are saying 1-3 weeks. I am really excited for someone from the boards to read it, though...I mean a lot of it is probably dry lit. crit. to most people, but the acknowledgments, intro essay, section openers and conclusion are less "academic-y" (lol, SO not a word)and all clearly influenced by a lot of the ideas discussed by all the posters here.

Really anyone who ever interacted with me here should know that they are a "part" of the book :-)