Wait, you had someone sleeping over at your house and you didn't know it? LOL What did you do?
It does sound like he is testing his limits, which comes with being 14. I think you and H handled it well, though. And a big hand clap to your H for not wanting to make any decisions while he was mad! Progress!
Accuray and CV I'm still going back in your posts and thinking on them. There's a lot there.
Sometimes in this process we learn our paradigms that we live by don't match what others experience or what is considered "normal" by most people in our culture. I wonder how someone can write a book that truly explains people when each person interprets the world through their own brain and realities don't match. It's like, how do you know I experience the color blue the way you do? We look at the color cards as children and learn when you see "that" that is blue. But there's no way to know that it looks the same to me as it does to you. Love is even more likely to be different because it's not something you can point at or even describe very well.
So, agape is how I've always viewed married love. It's something you have and give even when your spouse farts or embarasses you at a party, or doesn't pick up his underwear off the floor. I didn't realize there was much you could do about the annoyances because I lacked the tools to navigate effectively when my H's actions intruded on my comfort or happiness. And vice versa. We'd bicker or nitpick or tolerate, but there were better tools we didn't know about. But through it all I felt agape type of love.
Acc I did confuse your word attraction for physical or sexual attraction. I don't really understand the magnetic pull or spark you talk about. It seems foreign to me. I have felt a spark for guys in my life but not really like what you described you meant. It sounds sort of mystical and vague and outside your control, and I don't relate with that idea at all. I know I haven't done the reading that you have. Maybe I've always been missing something...or maybe it is that your book is overanalyzing.
What about arranged marriages? I've heard in countries where they are the norm they can be very happy and fulfilling, lifelong partnerships. They don't have the expectation or search for some ephemeral "spark" - they just learn how to make a good marriage and do that. Not that they're all always good, but I find it hard to believe that they're all always unfulfilling because they're not based on a "spark."
With my H, in the worst of times, I thought of this as an arranged marriage, that I arranged. I chose him, I gave myself to him, this was what we had, and we needed to make it work. I failed to see that we also needed to make it good. I let a long time go by where we were not making each other happy, and just thought in time we'd figure it out. We should have felt responsible for fixing it before it got worse.
CV, you're part of a majority that wonder why I'm with H, and I'm wondering it more and more too. From the beginning this seemed like a lucky chance at a do-over, even if it was a painful bomb. But I don't and didn't want to be someone who thought so little of marriage that I'd walk away at the first request for a D from my H. I feel responsible to myself and my kids to leave no stone unturned to find a chance for reconciliation.
When you read about the phases of marriage, it seems like a lot of marriages make it past rocky times to a more mature and better love, and I hope for that. I won't put up with it for 25 or 10 more years, all I know is today I'm not done.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
So, agape is how I've always viewed married love. It's something you have and give even when your spouse farts or embarasses you at a party, or doesn't pick up his underwear off the floor. I didn't realize there was much you could do about the annoyances because I lacked the tools to navigate effectively when my H's actions intruded on my comfort or happiness. And vice versa. We'd bicker or nitpick or tolerate, but there were better tools we didn't know about. But through it all I felt agape type of love.
Thanks CES for the new terms. So agape is how you've always viewed married love -- do you still? Is it still enough? If your H gave you agape, but no phileo or eros, would that be enough for you?
I have some friends visiting us this week, I've known them both since college. I look at their marriage and they definitely have all 3 kinds of love flowing. They truly enjoy each other's company and make each other laugh (phileo), they enjoy having sex with each other and being romantic (eros), and they love each other unconditionally (agape). Because they have all 3, I don't believe that they have to work *as hard* as other couples might. Not to say that they don't still have to work, they do.
I guess what I was saying Ad is that you can have agape with your parents, your kids, your friends, etc., there's nothing about agape that is exclusive to marriage, so why do we need marriage if it's the same as agreeing to agape?
I'm not trivializing agape because it doesn't "just happen" and it's not easy -- it takes work. It's a selfless kind of love that requires maturity to achieve. If you have "nice guy" issues where you make covert contracts and give in order to get, you're not providing agape love.
Providing that agape love requires motivation *because* it is work. What I'm suggesting is that the motivation can either spring from a sheer act of will, OR it can be fueled by phileo and eros. Whereas you say you view married love as agape, I view it as agape AND phileo, with occasional bouts of eros, or at least a very strong memory of eros for fuel.
If your spouse told you they loved you, but really didn't like you that much or enjoy your company would that be enough for you? That's agape without phileo or eros.
If your spouse told you they loved you and liked your companionship, but were not physically attracted to you and had no romantic feelings for you, would that be enough? (agape and phileo without eros)
If your spouse told you that they love you, and are physically attracted to you and love having sex, but otherwise just don't enjoy your company too much, would that be enough for you? (agape and eros without phileo)
See what I'm saying? I believe that if all three are not present in some measure, that you're headed for trouble.
To address StubbornDyke's point, I'm not suggesting that marriage has to be magical with all three types of love always in abundance, but I'm saying that they have to be there a little bit. I'm saying that you can choose to provide agape, but I don't believe you can decide to *feel* phileo or eros. You can work on setting the stage for them, and can make yourself open to them, but you cannot will them to happen like you can with agape.
Originally Posted By: Adinva
Acc I did confuse your word attraction for physical or sexual attraction. I don't really understand the magnetic pull or spark you talk about. It seems foreign to me. I have felt a spark for guys in my life but not really like what you described you meant. It sounds sort of mystical and vague and outside your control, and I don't relate with that idea at all. I know I haven't done the reading that you have.
In this case I'm not sharing something I read. What does "attraction" mean to you? Is attraction only physical and sexual? Have you ever seen someone you thought was really physically attractive and then they opened their mouth and just killed it for you? Have you ever met someone who wasn't super physically attractive to you, but they had this great, compelling personality that made you laugh and just feel good to be around them?
I guess if I were to be more specific I would say that attraction requires that someone be physically attractive *enough* to meet your standards, AND have a personality that appeals to you and makes you feel good about yourself and good about them AND complements your personality in such a way that it *feels* like a good match to you. I think initially there also needs to be some element of challenge there -- that this person is worth having by virtue of the fact that they don't just throw themselves at your feet.
Originally Posted By: Adinva
What about arranged marriages? I've heard in countries where they are the norm they can be very happy and fulfilling, lifelong partnerships.
I've also heard directly that they can be lifelong torture-fests. I haven't researched or discussed enough to be able to comment on arranged marriages.
I feel like I've taken us way off track from helping you with your sitch and I apologize for that == but I did want to respond.
Accuray
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
Acc, I think the most important thing you mentioned is being open to the kinds of love you're saying are essential in a marriage.
They should all be there at least some of the time, but sometimes they're not. If you're open to repairing things that are lacking, you're partly there. If you try and you just don't feel it can be repaired, then I guess it is over.
I would not stay in a marriage with someone who told me they would never feel attracted to me again if I believed that was true. I think people's minds go all over the place in a crisis and it's possible to say never and be wrong.
I would not stay in or have gotten into a marriage with only sexual attraction.
The spark thing is still difficult for me to get. To build the love that got us married with kids, I thought H looked nice first, then he spoke and I thought he was funny and smart, and along the way the more I got to know him the positives outweighed the negatives. We found more compatibility over time. We spent time getting to know each other, we liked being together more and more, and so love built on experiences. At any point I might have ruled him out if I saw something in him that overshadowed his more attractive qualities.
So just because someone is nice-looking there isn't spark that could vanish if they open their mouth and are crass or have gross teeth.
It was more like I saw snowflakes coming down and almost all of them stuck and then without having seen it happen the ground was covered in snow. No 'spark' but an accumulation of many ideas, images, and experiences that to me all spoke of someone I believed was a good life partner for me.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
I think we're in agreement but not quite connecting. The "spark" or "attraction" is what motivated you to be patient and allow the snowflakes to accumulate with this man versus another. I'm sure you met other attractive men who could make you laugh, but there was something intangibly different about this man, even if it was slight initially.
It was *that* intangible bit that helped you stay when new snowflakes stopped falling, when old snowflakes started to melt, and when H came out with his snowblower.
There's something intangible there that makes this much more than an intellectual decision.
Accuray
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
Nope, there wasn't. I don't believe in 'soul mates' or 'the ONE.' Neither does my H. I wanted a certain kind of life, my own career, some kids, a wonderful husband, love and security and a happy home. I have been in love and considered marrying three men only; the first I allowed to end because I saw his controlling and cruel side potentially turned on me (he was in charge of 'pledge training' at his frat). The second I allowed to end because of his risk-taking and drug use. H was wonderful and nothing was a serious red flag to me so we grew together and after four years couldn't see a life without each other so we married, and after four years of enjoying marriage together we took the leap and had kids.
I don't believe I know what the intangible special thing is, and if I thought it played a part in my marriage, I think we would have been over when H told me he wasn't attracted to me anymore. I am 100% certain that I could turn that around with openness to change on h's part. That requires me not to believe in some 'intangible' thing you just can't help.
I don't know if I'm lacking something most people have, or if I'm just fine, but I live more in my intellect than in my physical, emotional, or spiritual side, it is where I am 'me.' My IC has noted how deeply I feel and how extremely emotionally aware I am of others, or how empathetic, so I don't think I'm missing something. But that's where I start thinking again about my 'color blue' argument.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
hoo wee, that was on h3ll of a weekend. My 14yo is testing in all sorts of ways, and H and I have big challenges to deal with. I knew this would be coming and it was one of the reasons I was so extremely angry at H for deciding to leave *now*, with two boys who need their dad so desperately for the next few years. I would have rather divorced when the kids were smaller if we were going to anyway. I know it's bad at any age though.
I spent lots of moments this weekend railing against my challenges, but this morning I remembered what helped before. I need to realize this is my new normal, suck it up and get better at dealing with it. Railing against it doesn't help. I've got to float with the current I'm in and make the best of it that I can.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
Sorry you have to deal with 14yr old who's testing limits. Maybe look at it as an opportunity to work together with H as you try to figure out how to handle S's recent adventures.
Ad, I am sorry to hear it was such a tough weekend.
You're right, D is tough on kids at any age. 14 would be especially tough, though. I was 12-13 when my parents D'd. Hopefully your H will be involved in the boys' life even if he is leaving. I think it's very important that he is.
