Just popping my head in....Zig knows my thoughts on a lot of this already but in terms of the debate on forceful action vs letting them come to you or standing still etc....
I've always said I don't want a partner I had to force to be with me. I want him to choose to want to be with me.
Like several other people have said not every idea works for every sitch. Take what you can learn from and leave the rest. No one on here is an expert. We're all just trying to figure out the best way to get by.
i didn't know about co-dependency. and aren't we expected to become emotionally enmeshed in our marriages? isn't that what most people do. are you telling me that most marriages that last, the people are not emotionally enmeshed and at any given time can accept that their marriage is over and simply move on?
Popular culture would have us believe that enmeshment is the goal. It may be the norm, but it's not healthy or functional. Yes, there is interdependence. But, those of us who become emotionally enmeshed don't fare well and neither does the R.
It's my observation that the long term really happily married couples have a secret called detachment. The ability to be loving and kind and close without losing your sense of self and your healthy boundaries (which, as Starsky points out, have to do with our own thoughts and actions, and are not attempts to control the other's behavior).
Absolutely 100% agree with this. ^^^ I'm going thru this with our adult daughters now, who -- unfortunately -- picked up a lot of their unhealthy enmeshment/co-dependency habits from my wife and me.
The whole Jerry McGuire "You complete me" thing is a bunch of b.s., and it's UNHEALTHY. Our spouse cannot be part of our happiness cake. They should only be the frosting.
I heard a psychologist say once that our M should be like a fruit salad, not a smoothie.. in a fruit salad, the individual fruits retain their uniqueness.
Another great way to look at it, NG.
Starsky
I remember a scene once in M*A*S*H, when Radar was watching home movies from back in Iowa, where his family was having a backyard bbq. "Oh, that fruit salad with the little marshmallows in it!" Radar exclaimed, excitedly. "Yeah, what do they call that?" Hawkeye asked. "That fruit salad, with the little marshmallows in it," Radar replied.
Just popping my head in....Zig knows my thoughts on a lot of this already but in terms of the debate on forceful action vs letting them come to you or standing still etc....
I've always said I don't want a partner I had to force to be with me. I want him to choose to want to be with me.
Just to be clear, Brit (because I agree with what you wrote here ^^), the "forceful action" that I usually advocate is ONLY with the idea to "separate the addict (the cheater) from the source of their addiction (their affair partner)," as soon as possible, to prevent further damage (strengthening of their emotional bond, erosion of the family's finances, harm to the betrayed spouse's and the children's emotional psyche, etc.).
I.O.W., it's a first step. After that, the true work begins, and whether it starts with a Retrouvaille weekend, good ongoing MCing with an MC/FT specifically trained in infidelity, or what . . . THAT is when the marriage is re-built about mutually healthy behaviors and attitudes.
To me, it's simply "pouring the liquor down the drain," or "getting the matches and kerosene out of the house" -- a necessary first step before true healing can begin, and the formerly cheating spouse can begin to open themselves up to having their emotional needs met again by their betrayed spouse.
i've been following along since early morning, starsky.
thank you for this discussion - and you are not hijacking one bit. I WANT this discussion - not only for myself but for others too, and I'm more than happy for it to be here on my thread. So go all out, starsky. I think it's time to hack it all out. and yes please - post these challenges - i do want to explore this area.
the reason i haven't posted back yet or replied in anyway is because I need some time here.
last nights' small revelation triggered off some HUGE stuff for me - and i just need time to start breathing again.
about the "it's his path" - those were my words not h's. his words were "i'm not doing this TO you, I'm just doing it" and "this is who i really am, you just didn't realize it" - said in the 2-3 months after BD.
labug and starsky - please continue the dialog you started this morning - there are things that need to be said and i don't think that this is a time for "diplomacy"
as for me, i just want to listen for a bit - i talk too damn much!!
busting -come hijack too. in fact everybody - this has been an underlying tension on this board, probably always - which stand to take, which way to go -and i for one would love a really open honest discussion about it
thank you starsky - and i am really reading what you are writing
zig
Thank you, Zig -- and I hope today is better for you. Rather than listening to me "pontificate," maybe you can ask me some specific questions or challenge some specific assertions of mine when you're up for it. It's easier for me to respond to specifics -- just the way my male brain is wired.
I do appreciate your open-mindedness. I know this isn't easy.
I heard a psychologist say once that our M should be like a fruit salad, not a smoothie.. in a fruit salad, the individual fruits retain their uniqueness.
NG, from one fruit to another, I'm getting a big kick out of that analogy!
Just to be clear, Brit (because I agree with what you wrote here ^^), the "forceful action" that I usually advocate is ONLY with the idea to "separate the addict (the cheater) from the source of their addiction (their affair partner)," as soon as possible, to prevent further damage (strengthening of their emotional bond, erosion of the family's finances, harm to the betrayed spouse's and the children's emotional psyche, etc.).
Starsky - how to separate the addict when the addict doesn't see a problem?
TPS Me: 44 H: 42 M14 T17 S10 D7 10/10 H moves out after death of his father-same month 21/04/12 H is 'DONE' 04/05/12 OW/PA confirmed (rumors from 2010) July '14 H ends affair May '15 H moves back home
Starsky - how to separate the addict when the addict doesn't see a problem?
This is the big question.
FTR, I pretty much agree with Starsky in most sitchs. I don't necessarily disagree with anything he's posted here on this thread.
For me, what is blatantly obvious in this sitch and a few others, is that the WAS is in a strong stance of believing what they are doing is in fact, right and appropriate.
I don't actually think an addict doesn't see the problem. I am more of the mind that an addict just denies the problem, pushes it down, buries it... often, with more of the same behaviour. It's their pattern, which is why they are addicted in the first place.
The coaches that advised both Brit and Zig to "seduce" their Hs is right on, IMHO. And not because they women, it would work similarly for men, as well.
Otherwise, it's one strong minded individual going straight up with another strong minded individual and all they do is yell in each others face. Eventually, one will succumb... sure...
Zig's H, Brit's H, even my wife... Their spouses DO like them. There's an obvious attraction... and then they spew or run away and hide, when they get too close...
This becomes classic pursuit/distance...
The WAS can't know they want the LBS if their back is always facing the LBS because the WAS is running away...
If the LBS stops and puts on "the show"... the WAS might stop and turn around and actually see what they're missing and what they really want...
I relate very much to zig and Brit I guess because I see a lot of my H in theirs. I was advised by my DB coach to act like the OW and more recently to warm it up a bit with my H. ( I have had very little interaction with my H over the past 3 months).
Over the past year before DB there were moments ( this is all in hindsight), of him softening to me. But my relentless pursuit seems to have pushed him (too?) far.
I don't disagree with separating the addict at all. I mean this is all I was trying to do over the past year ( but in all the wrong ways). I truly want a CHNCE at R, I by no means think once she is out everything will be flowers.
I guess I just don't know how. Now that he is PA, he is no longer ' confused' about what he wants. He is now in the throes of honeymoon stage. How can you get an addict away from that?
TPS Me: 44 H: 42 M14 T17 S10 D7 10/10 H moves out after death of his father-same month 21/04/12 H is 'DONE' 04/05/12 OW/PA confirmed (rumors from 2010) July '14 H ends affair May '15 H moves back home
