journaling - h just called. the phone rang and by the time i got to it he had left a super hurried message and rang off.
i called him back - and joked lightly about how he couldn't have left a quicker message - he sounded nervous but upbeat - like he was trying hard. i just said here's s - he had called to say goodnight to him and got off quickly.
i was pleased though - this is a change - all the other trips it would be 4 or 5 days before he called and s would seem more and more down. now after talking to h for over 20 mins - he's laying in bed singing at the top of his voice - started right after he got off the phone.
my s is well and it makes my heart warm. and he's well because finally after so long, h is really doing right by him in a lot more ways than before, since the BD.
i did unnerve s yesterday , not realizing that h had not really told him much. h had just told him he was going out of town, and s was shocked to realize that he had already left.i don't think he has any idea when h is coming back - but i will talk to him and make it clear tonight when putting him to bed.
me 46 H 38 M10yrs T 11 S10 BD ow 8/11 h filed 9/25/12
"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is"
My opinion is that we never really know what may or may not be the reasons for a WAS to "come home". IDK if Starsky knows that your H isn't living at home. That for all intents and purposes, your H is gone, just not filed, yet.
I am glad you self checked after reading my post. That was my hope. It is the beauty of this board that we get all these different perspectives to mull over.
Without a doubt, if what you are doing stops working for you, try something different. And I know I saw Starsky post recently about "what is working" is about what is working for you, to achieve your goal. In your case, I believe that you feel that what you are doing is working to help you achieve your goal, which is a better you, regardless of the outcome of your M.
You asked if my W shows how tortured she is or admit to being agonized.
The short answer is, "no". Early on, she had suggested at one point that she wasn't having an easy time of it (her decision), yet qualified that with suggesting she wasn't going to change her mind. Otherwise, she projects to me and everyone that she is doing fine and while things are a little challenging, she's making due and working things out for herself. So for my W, she won't even allow herself to be vulnerable enough to tell me that she won't allow herself to be vulnerable with me...
You asked if I would elaborate on my saying that I was shocked by my reaction to the sitch.
What I mean is, knowing who I am and what I believe in, which is who I was and what I believed in when I decided to commit to my W, is that as much as I was committing to a lifetime with her, I was also fully aware that people change, change their mind, and there was no guarantee the M would work out and that if it did not, I would be OK.
What that run on sentence means is, I was shocked because I knew better. I KNEW that not all Ms survive. I KNEW that I KNEW better. And I was having a hard time believing that I had become co-dependent. Or at the very least, emotionally enmeshed in the outcome of my M.
So yes, I DO care about my W and children... my nuclear family... It's just that I do realize, understand, and accept that sometimes... D happens... I just have to learn from it and always work on being a better person and be the best dad I can be.
As far as swimming alongside... IDK... are there leeches and weeds? If so... I'm outta the pool...
re: cray? Apparently that's (probably soooooo last year, already) what the early teens in our part of the world say. Some reference to the slang of the "hood", as it were...
well kd - so much for anything working for me..as far as the sitch goes.
just found out from s that h has not only told him exactly where he went, but also told him of ow's presence there.
as far as i can tell he's just put it as - i'm going to visit friend and her mom and friends' sister who's there too.
so i have just found out that ow's name is now known to s. he couldn't remember the name and asked me - i got vague and said i didn't quite remember...yuck
so his singing was about getting excited because h promised to do this project with him when he got back.
but when i lay down next to him and asked if h had told him when he was getting back - his whole demeanor changed and he got tense and seemed really down. then he got clingy and didn't want me to leave. so he is dealing with stuff too - just wish he could open up and express himself and his real feelings so i could tell where he is really at and support him in it.
it's sad for me to have to just stand back and watch him struggle - he is too much like his father and grandfather. he has learned really well that feelings that hurt should be suppressed as much as possible....
on to what you wrote -
i can't say that my goal is to be a better me regardless of the outcome of my marriage. I want both, but of course with what continues to go on - i may not want both always
I was shocked because I knew better. I KNEW that not all Ms survive. I KNEW that I KNEW better. And I was having a hard time believing that I had become co-dependent. Or at the very least, emotionally enmeshed in the outcome of my M.
how come you knew better? i didn't know any better - i figured eventually we would iron things out. i didn't know about co-dependency. and aren't we expected to become emotionally enmeshed in our marriages? isn't that what most people do. are you telling me that most marriages that last , the people are not emotionally enmeshed and at any given time can accept that their marriage is over and simply move on?
sheesh, if that is so, i have ALOT to learn
sorry KD - i can't remember right now, if you guys are already D'd or your wife has filed. i'm embarrassed to ask..
no leeches and weeds - the turtles i'm with swim in the most peaceful part of the ocean - deep deep down where things are still and the murmur of the outside world is silenced...
i'm not there right now, but i'm already swimming down ....
me 46 H 38 M10yrs T 11 S10 BD ow 8/11 h filed 9/25/12
"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is"
A quick recap, my W has had at least three EAs that I know of. One was long distance (co-worker) who is gay. I think like most people, my W doesn't believe in fairies nor MLC nor EAs. I think it's the same thing as people who believe that "kids grow up too fast" really don't understand that until they have kids and find out they grow up too fast.
So my W has never admitted to an OP. All she refers to these men in her life to most people that I'm aware of, including me, the kids, and many of her friends (although I'm not sure about her family nor her really, really close friends) is that they are her friends. I really don't know the status of these relationships at this time, although I do know that she still spends a lot of time with these men. It's kind of a bizarre triangle, if I really think about it.
Anyhow, so my kids are loathe to think of their mom as having any sort of "intimate" R with these men. ie. boyfriend. And yet, kids are smart. I know that deep down, both the kids know SOMETHING is... different... with their mom's R with these men, as opposed to my W's R with other men she knows, who are friends.
It's a struggle for the kids, without a doubt... no matter how much they put on a smiling face and claim to be happy because their mom and/or dad are happy.
Of course you'd love to save your M and no matter how deep down you hide that and deny that, it would be true, otherwise you're not likely to still be here. And it's very human and understandable. We say "put that thought... of saving your M... in a box... and seal the lid and place it high up on your bookshelf, for now..."
My dear zig... I've been on this "journey" for the better part of my life. Early in my teen years, I began. Without a doubt, an artefact of self discovery due to being raised in an emotionally and physically volatile environment with two alcoholic parents (and don't even get me started on the alcoholic relatives on both sides of the family)... By the time I was a teenager, I was already "helping" my friends figure out their own drama in their lives. When I got my license at 16, my truck was pretty much known as the travelling therapist's office... lol... If that truck were to ever speak...
Anyhow, by the time I was a young adult (after my DUI and my DUI equivalent and realizing I was travelling a very dangerous path and pattern), I decided to more intimately and officially find a different "way". Which eventually led to the person I am... the person I "was", when I met my W and became enamoured with her.
So... at least in my mind... yeah... I knew better...
Funny thing about "once upon a time, a beautiful princess met her prince charming and they lived happily ever after"...
If one takes a close look... that fairy tale book... sometimes known as the hollywood M... is a study in co-dependency...
I try to refrain from ever bursting anyone's bubble... still, from a psychological perspective... life long M's are not fairytale... they are filled with ups and downs and people who either really work at it... or decide to settle because they don't like the alternative...
Yes... people become emotionally enmeshed... it's somehow inherent in our biology. I have a theory that it's the core thoughts that began with the early greek philosophers and eventually became part of our current theologies and M vows and to some extent, our laws, that tried to encapsulate that understanding in what is considered morally, ethically, and socially acceptable. ie. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife or For better or for worse... etc, etc...
Not sure if you knew this, but there are only about six animals on this earth which mate for life... all of them are of the avian species...
But I digress...
To answer your question regarding the status of my M. There is still a legal document on record that we are M, although we do have an SA in place. I begged my W to D me, prior to her submitting to filing an SA. She will not file D. She says, that is up to me. For now... that's her position...
OK, if the water is warm, I'll swim... but I'm bringing my rubber ducky, just in case...
Zig and KD and starsky wow what an intense debate/ conversation with lots to think about.
Thank you for putting so much out there. Not only do I learn and am forced to think, rethink, and think again, but I also learn how to better express myself see the 'finer print' of my sitch for lack of a better phrase.
KD- the spiced rum is ready, I have laid out a bigger blanket as well.
TPS Me: 44 H: 42 M14 T17 S10 D7 10/10 H moves out after death of his father-same month 21/04/12 H is 'DONE' 04/05/12 OW/PA confirmed (rumors from 2010) July '14 H ends affair May '15 H moves back home
I apologize - for offending you. let it never be said that zig doesn't own her stuff.
I do still believe the things i wrote , but i don't think i was able to put them in a way that didn't cause you offense, and for that I am deeply sorry.
you came here to help - and instead of asking and listening - i went off on my spiel.
I asked a lot of questions - not because i was being defiant, but because i really want to know. I am sorry they came across that way. i was sincerely hoping you would answer them - they were not to make any sort of point.
I am fine if you don't want to answer this post, I wrote it more from a place of wanting to be honest more than anything else
I will hope that you could find it in yourself to continue the conversation - not just for me but for the others also who are trying to find firm ground in this area
sincerely zig
Zig,
I was not in the least bit offended, and no apology necessary. This is a place full of hurting, struggling people, and I never take anything personally. I only have a limited amount of time to spend on the forum these days, and so I try to identify situations where someone feels their current approach is NOT working ... for them. Since you are content with your current strategy, and my "challenge" posts seemed to only be upsetting you, that's why I said good-bye.
Your approach seems to be "Boundaries are only necessary to the extent that my husband's poor behavior BOTHERS me. So I'm teaching myself not to be bothered, and so then I don't need the boundaries." I couldn't disagree with this more strongly, and I think it's not only affecting you (your upbeat mood notwithstanding), but I don't believe it builds respect and attraction from a wayward spouse, and I also see now that your son is picking up on things.
I'd still like to know what you did for "5-10 years" that you feel was abusive to your husband, and yes it does change my advice somewhat. I would hope that we would ALL try to tailor our advice to people's specific situations, so I'm not sure why that would be confusing to you.
you talk about boundaries? i believe i am learning for the first time in my life, albeit a little late, about what those mean.
and i have a boundary here: I am open to all discussion and interaction and am willing to partake in it wholeheartedly. but what i will not accept from anyone is outright derision.
Zig, if you don't see his going off and continuing to have a physical affair with another woman -- while knowing that you know about it -- as a HUGE problem, then I'm afraid there's nothing I can offer you. "Part of his path" ???
Puhleeze. I'm sorry, in my opinion that's just a bunch of hokum.
If that is not derision and scorn, then I don't know what is.
Zig,
I assumed that "this is part of the journey I'm on" was your cheating HUSBAND'S stance on his behavior -- not yours. So any derision was directed at him, not you. I apologize if you felt I was deriding YOU.
See, I don't believe in the whole MLC "this is the path I must walk" stuff. To me, "crap behavior is crap behavior," and should be dealt with as such. I don't believe that "MLC affairs" -- whatever those even are -- should be dealt with any differently than any other type of affair.
Yes, that is a decidedly different position than most on the MLC forum, and even many on this forum, but I'm not the only one. Maybe I'm the only one who vocalizes it.
In any event, I'm sorry if my exasperation came across as deriding you or your struggle. I really do want you to succeed, and your husband to return to your family.
I will leave you with this personal story, from a friend of mine. It's just a story, from her situation, but in my experience, her exH's observations are pretty typical. If nothing else, maybe it will make someone out there think, and challenge their current assumptions:
He literally told our MC that what I had considered strong over years of our marriage (forgiving him for cheating more than once, putting up with his crap by convincing myself it was 'unconditional love', etc.), he considered WEAK. Cheaters or people of low integrity don't view unconditional love/acceptance/tolerance/enabling of their behavior as saintly, they find it pathetic. Nobody stays madly in love with someone they consider weak and pathetic.
Learn from my mistakes and those of other people on these forums. My ex cheated with a coworker who had a lower/subordinate position. He told me the boss threatened his job if he was messing around with her--the boss even suspected him before I did.
So I actually took my children to watch my then-H go bowling one night. It was his weekly bowling league through work. I knew he'd slept w the coworker who was also on his team, but I feared that if word got out, my then H would lose his job and blame me and I didn't want him angry at me because then he might leave me. *Let that misguided logic--coming from a place of fear--sink in.*
I took the kids so that coworkers and superiors who were there would see me and realize that my H couldn't possibly be cheating because if he were I'd never show up there and actually be pleasant. I did it thinking it would save his job and he would be so amazed at my poise/grace/courage that he'd see me in a whole new light.
What actually happened? The kids and I left,and H and gf had to stay behind to discuss how "manipulative" I had been, coming and acting like things were fine. Understand THIS: if you are accomodating, they will talk about how this is some underhanded ploy on your part. Or, they will talk about how pitiful you are. If you stand your ground, they may hit a rough spot. Or they may band together to talk about how much of a jerk you are.
That's why you CAN'T act from a place of fear or a place of trying to control the outcome. All you can do is decide what you will and will not tolerate and act from that position. If you decide you'd rather have pieces of your wife that she deigns to give you than risk losing her, then accept that what you have now is what you will always have, unless/until she gets her feet under her enough to just walk away entirely. Stop whining about it and stressing about it and acknowledge that you've chosen to accept this lot in life.
Or decide that you will not tolerate it anymore. No more talking. No more reacting. If she goes out dressed to "[Bleep!] it up" after saying she wouldn't, if she goes to meet a guy for a dinner, let her come home to an empty house. Take the kids and go stay somewhere else. I did this twice and both times came home the next day when ex said he wanted me home (yet I didn't hold out for actions, just accepted the words, big mistake). I regret that I didn't just go and stay gone as long as he continued his crap behavior. Take half (at least half) of everything and open a new bank account that she cannot access. Stop talking and ACT to protect yourself and your kids.
As for sex, I honestly was at a point where I felt like if I was still sleeping with my ex even though he was seeing OW, I was 'winning' bc they would fight bc we still slept together. I went for a full STD panel and it came back clean. A few months later OW texted me informing me that ex told her it came back clean, and that A)She was glad she didn't catch anything from ME (WTF) and B)Once she knew about the clean panel they quit using protection entirely.
Loooong story short: the more I gave in, the more I tried to love unconditionally, be patient without demands/expectations, be the more desirable person, be available, and talk, talk talk the situation to death, the more he gradually pulled away. After 2 years of that dance, he moved out for the last time. Now his gf has moved to our town. Our kids go to school together which my son hates. The gf and my ex are planning to move into a house together sometime in the near future--they already are together 80% of the time. And as I call him ex, we obv got divorced. Don't go down the same road. I might still be divorced had I taken a tougher stance, but I would have had more respect for myself and fewer regrets. Ultimately I filed for D because I knew my kids were watching me and I didn't want to teach them that being treated that way was ok.
And just has she had her journey, we each have ours. You can't fast forward this, it's a process just as I'm sure yours was, Starsky.
We each have to find the way that works for us. It may not be what worked for you and that's OK. Doesn't mean you're wrong or someone else is right, it just is.
This stood out for me in the above story: That's why you CAN'T act from a place of fear or a place of trying to control the outcome.
I think that's good advice for all of us.
Me 57/H 58 M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13
Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do. I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering. Caroline Myss
It's not a matter of "fast-forwarding" things. It's a matter of putting boundaries in place for you and your kids that protect them from the cheating spouse's destructive behavior. Legal, financial, emotional (and sometimes physical) protections.
My situation lasted only 3 months, but piecing took FAR longer -- 2-5 years (and we are still, of course, piecing every day to some degree). I know that's not typical, but I don't believe that anyone should have to endure what I consider to be emotional abuse for several YEARS. When one spouse is cheating, the other spouse knows it, and the cheating spouse KNOWS that they know and they know how much it is hurting them . . . and then continue in it, lying to their own kids . . . yes, I consider that emotional abuse.
I guess we just define "works" differently, labug. I define it as "making demonstrable moves away from their affair partner, and back towards the marriage" -- not as whether or not they're being "nice."
Again, maybe I'm in the minority on this stuff. Certainly doesn't hurt to have an alternative voice, if nothing else.
