more turtles by my side...

[Starsky309]

so tell me starsky - should i stop doing what works here? i don't see this trip as an indication that things are getting worse. i just see it as part of the path he is on.

Zig, if you don't see his going off and continuing to have a physical affair with another woman -- while knowing that you know about it -- as a HUGE problem, then I'm afraid there's nothing I can offer you. "Part of his path" ???

Puhleeze. I'm sorry, in my opinion that's just a bunch of hokum.

Humans are pretty basic, path-of-least-resistance creatures, especially us men. As long as your husband is getting his physical and many of his emotional needs met by another woman, and the rest of his emotional needs met by you when he comes come, I think you will find that he will never do anything to change the current situation. Why would he?

With one exception: OW could dump him. However, that usually leads to OW#2 if a man feels he can continue to get away with it.


Starsky

[needgrace]

hi zig,

thanks again for your courage and honesty about the feelings you wrestle with..i often share them with you and am helped when you articulate them so well here...

thanks too as you have generated a great discussion about what is the most difficult decision (or series of decisions) we make while in the ditches ..how to handle contact and boundaries..

or really WHEN to do what...N/C,dim, dark, act as if, seduce them back, what would a friend do, flirt, end the conversation first, give them space, let them see your changes, let them see what it is like to miss us..and on and on...

i really like how you handled this week.. it seemed to me like H was in some turmoil and you just gave him space...i loved how you handled the last day... you sounded empowered and those seemed like healthy boundaries to me.

and I LOVE your empathy too.. i believe that self awareness, forgiveness, detachment and our own self confidence are all wrapped up together.. and i feel as if you have been growing in all... so that NO MATTER WHAT, you will be ok...that is the goal too, right?

please keep expressing all that you feel and struggle with.. it helps all of us. I am so so honored to be picnicking with you, zig, every day I grow just be hearing and sharing with you. (((((( ))))))

[zig]

brit - thank you for your words. i don't literally see myself as empathetic - all i see is that i was one way before and i choose not to be that way any more.

I spent my whole life so self-focused , always looking to see what someone else was doing or saying to me. never was able to put myself in the other person's place and try to see what they were feeling.

it's hard to face up to that - and then to try to see it from someone else's point of view - that's like looking in the mirror and seeing some very very ugly images.

if that's empathy - i'm so happy to be there. can't help thinking that if i'd done even a little of that before, we wouldn't be where we are right now.

in my own defense - i did put myself in h's shoes - but only on some issues - and not the ones i truly needed to look at

[zig]

Busting - sweet sweet busting - you are so wrong about not being here for me. just because you didn't post on my thread? no, no - you've been right by my side at the picnic the whole time.

you think the picnic is only for you? i NEED to be at that picnic just as much as you or anyone else does. do you not think that banter on your thread was helping me to stay in a good place? do you know how many times this week i said to myself - i'm at the picnic with all you guys. you are as much here for me as you could possibly be, sweet girl, and besides - i'm at the point where knowing the picnic is in full swing helps me stay on that blanket. well, that and brit given' it to me straight up no ice and i so like her style (grin)

I cleaned up the picnic blanket and got some fresh drinks, glasses and updated the playlist. Join me again?

again - i never left - okay so i leaned ofer and turned around but i promise i never got off!!! not for a second!!

i loved to read what you wrote - actually i was delighted - you've taken such strides in the last couple of weeks busting - you've stepped back and begun to see what's what - not overshadowed by your emotions. now you can think again in a more constructive way - and see more clearly what it is that you CAN do.


It is also confusing I think because we as LBS I don't think we actually realised for a long while how unhappy our S's were. So when this hits us we have to first take some time to recover from the blow and then the slow process of understanding how so many things we thought were working were actually the things that were not working.

yes this is why i am where i'm at - i can say for myself that i did see that he was not happy and i tried ALOT to ask him tot talk to me. he just denied it completely - and that's what made me so terribly unhappy. at the time i saw it as him not trusting me enough to open up to me.

now i see that his issue was that he could not acknowledge his own feelings to himself , let alone to me. that there is no way i could have or can fix that. that's for him to fix...

i don't know if my standing by him while he is in crisis is the "correct" thing to do. all i know is that taking the higher road here for me is the only choice i have. i know myself, i know my own tendencies and it would only be too easy for me to take the other route... i cannot do that, because then i will prevent the true growth that needs to occur within me.

except oddly now - i have reached the point where i couldn't take that easy road of anger and indignation - it's not the way i function any longer

hey - what did you add to that playlist? i hope there's lots of ABBA - because there's nothing like Abba to get one swinging and laughing once again!!! my s must know that - for the last three times he's returned back here - he walks straight into his room and turns Abba on

(((((( ))))))) to you busting - you have become the same kind of friend to me

zig

[zig]

thanks reaching - and thanks for the reminder

Balance, Balance, Balance

that turtle came to join us these last few weeks and I have been striving for that in my own life. I was terribly unbalanced - and I am slowly learning what it means to find that.

trusting my gut? yes, - i am trying to for the first time in my life. i didn't even know it was there before...

hope you are doing well

zig

[zig]

vera, labug - thanks

labug - i've been thinking about those boundaries a lot lately.

i'm getting a new sense here about what it means to have one and for what reason one puts them into place.

i don't know if i can articulate clearly enough what i am feeling, but i will try.

when we are in a place where we get hurt or abused by others words/ actions or the way they treat us, then boundaries need to be put into place to protect ourselves and to get the respect we need. when we get that space for ourselves, then slowly we can see more clearly what those needs are

what happens when we are detached enough that their words/ actions DON'T affect us so deeply any longer?

Do those same boundaries apply? or do we adjust them and be flexible enough to set up new parameters for ourselves and others? or do we just hold on to those old ones, just in case?

during the months i was dim, I needed h to stay away - because i couldn't handle what he was doing around me. when i got stronger i realized that he could come and go, and it didn't affect me much at all.

specific things affected me - and i felt that each of them that came up, needed to come up to teach me something, to help me define something for myself, to show me what i needed to work on, to help me understand where i was really at and to change that for the better for myself.

through all of this one could say my h has been consistent - he's taken a stand and is sticking by it - at least until now, and for however long he chooses to. but where i'm at is much more significant for me. and i will say that i couldn't see the possibility of being at this place before for myself.

where i'm at is being able to live that no matter what he is doing, i can stay consistent in my feelings for him, step back enough to see what's mine to fix (myself) and what's not mine (his stuff)

now, the only boundary i need to have is the firm one for myself - how much do i allow what he is doing to affect me?

and each week i find that boundary getting stronger and stronger.

not the one where he is or isn't doing certain things. but the boundary of where i'm at in my reaction to it.

that is the only way i can see myself being successful whether i have to move forward on my own or whether we reconcile.if we do r, i cannot depend on him changing his ways. i will have to depend on how i have changed mine only.

i hope that what i wrote makes sense.

i am taking what i can use - and it's a lot a lot. and i love being on this board for that reason.

hope you're having a great weekend.

zig

ps. i just thought of a conversation between h and me a few weeks ago that demonstrates this.

me: h, you don't have to knock on the door when you come in each time (I had never asked him to do that, he just started after he moved out)

h: oh, I do. you need your space and I need mine. and this gives you the space

me: Actually, your actions do not affect the space I'm in. (and i only realized that in the moment I said it). I'm really fine where I'm at and i don't need you to decide for me whether I need that space or not. I can decide that for myself. I will continue to knock when I come to your place, since you say you need that space.

h: No, you don't need to knock when you come over (I barely ever go there)

only after i realized that i had made a new boundary with h - "don't decide for me what I need, based on what you are feeling. this came after he had had that long conversation with our friend in march where he admitted to being in an mlc, and during that had told her "s and zig need a lot of space - i have to stay away and give it to them"

i know i digressed a bit there -but this is what it's all about for me right now

[~ kd ~]

Really like what you just wrote, zig.

Personal boundaries are based on personal reasons. When we remove reasons, there becomes no need for boundaries.

Many of our reasons are fear based.

Get rid of the fear means getting rid of the reason which means getting rid of the need for boundaries.

Every boundary has a reason. Make those reasons your own. Or get rid of them.

[zig]

well, well starsky - here we are. or i should say here i am.

I'm not really sure where to start. but zig style I guess i'll just dive in...

the first thing i read this morning was your second post to me. and after that i realized that there were a host of other responses, including your first one.

you definitely came on my thread to teach me something. but it took me many hours...

the first thing i learned was that you gave me another opportunity to practice my new learned skills.

the second thing i learned was that i have really truly changed, and i thank-you for that - tremendously.

so what have i truly changed? after i read your second post my first instinct was to hit reply and let you have it!

then i found i didn't need to. i just simply didn't. i could wait and digest what you wrote, tried to see it from your point of view, listen to what you were saying and then know where i was, what i am, who i want to work towards being and be really okay with that.

and the best thing? i could do it without getting angry, without defending myself or my position and without getting sarcastic or pissy. all the things i would have done before without a moment's hesitation.

that i feel confident enough finally that i don't have to spin-off because someone else doesn't agree with me, don't have to get all panicky and start second-guessing myself because someone suggested that i should do it differently.

now to the first thing i learned. i hope you won't take this the wrong way, because it is not meant that way - it is only to demonstrate where I am at, not you.

your stance reminded me of my h. i didn't feel as if you really read what i was writing. i feel that you picked up on certain things that stuck out for you (your triggers?) and then sort of went for me with them.

at first i could only see my own gut reaction of wanting to write back to you and explain it all. then i found myself thinking - how could i use this negative reaction i am having in a positive way. i found that i could "practice" on you, in preparation for being able to do the same with my h later.

you talk about boundaries? i believe i am learning for the first time in my life, albeit a little late, about what those mean.

and i have a boundary here: I am open to all discussion and interaction and am willing to partake in it wholeheartedly. but what i will not accept from anyone is outright derision.


Zig, if you don't see his going off and continuing to have a physical affair with another woman -- while knowing that you know about it -- as a HUGE problem, then I'm afraid there's nothing I can offer you. "Part of his path" ???

Puhleeze. I'm sorry, in my opinion that's just a bunch of hokum.


If that is not derision and scorn, then I don't know what is.

and yes, it is a trigger for me - my h used that exact way of speaking to me for all the years we were together (including the faces) when he didn't like what i was saying or doing.

so it was a trigger for me - but not in the same way as before - i didn't react in the old way - and i thank you for helping me to see that. i have been really calm about it, just knowing that i would make it clear when i replied to you.

and this:

No, I have not read your entire sitch. What sort of crisis were you in for 5-10 years? I was unaware of that. If your husband stuck by you thru your own prior infidelity, drug use, or some sort of other life crisis that would probably change my view somewhat.

why should it change your view? i thought your view was that you had 0% tolerance for affairs, no matter what. are you saying now that depending on the circumstances, that view may change?

did i need to do something "bad enough" for you to take a more kindly view of my h?

is there a line i had to cross so that it justified MORE what he was doing?

so what were your comments based on, starsky? you say you aren't aware of my sitch but you have had some really strong opinions. then you say that depending on what i tell you about what i did during the marriage, it may change your view?

in your response to me there seems to be an indication that you think that i happily accept what h is doing. no, i don't - absolutely not. it's horrendous that he has done this to me, to our families and to himself. i have never condoned his r with ow, but yes i have told him honestly that if he feels that that is truly what makes him happy then i respect that and i am happy for him. that is not the same thing as saying i'm happy about what he is doing.

as for h being nice and what i define as "nice"... yes i DO think it's nice that h is being nicer. I have no expectations that that will lead to us reconciling - but yes, it is nice to have him feel comfortable enough around s and me alone to eat breakfast with us after 11 months - especially since that was one of our most difficult times of the day.

of course. i agree with you - it would be very nice if he ended the affair - that would be the most nice. but he's not going to end the affair because of what i did or didn't do - he's going to end it if and when he's ready to.

and if he is in mlc - which i truly think he is - what is the point of me taking a"tougher approach" as you put it. i've read a lot throughout the mlc forums and help and i don't find that approach being used it all. how does one keep the path home paved and smooth when one is pointing out to them what they are doing wrong?

in spite of all i've written above, there is also the fact that i am reading everything you wrote with an open mind and it IS making me think about where i stand in terms of how i will act in the future towards h. your posts have definitely made me aware of that, and i do thank you for that too.

those situations where people are noticing that the "be their friend" thing ISN'T working

i haven't noticed or not noticed that yet. i only started being more friendly about a month ago and during that time several things that i didn't expect have happened. several things that h didn't expect have happened. the trip was already planned before these developments i believe, and there is also the thing to consider that my h is one who can take a really long time to turn around from a stance he adopts.

believe me when i tell you starsky - h did not go on this trip all confident and comfortable with where he's at. the times before, yes, but not this time.

don't you think i should wait to see how it pans out before making the detail of this trip the most important thing here?

i've read the mlc forums - the walls have to start crumbling around them - and i can see the cracks getting bigger. that doesn't raise my expectations one bit. but what it does do is tell me to stay still , stay where i'm at and just focus on what i have to do to keep getting to a better and better place.

i don't want to make the mistake of not hearing what you are really trying to tell me. so if you have it in your heart, i would really like to hear what your suggestions are on a tougher approach.

your views on the "do what works" theory - they do intrigue me the way you put it and i would like to hear more about what you think i could do for "what moves me further along down the path toward a mutually-healthy and committed marriage."

your posts didn't upset me - they helped me to see a lot more than you probably intended. i hope that i haven't offended you in any way with my reply. i just wanted to be honest with what i felt and where i'm at (something i have not always been very good at doing, so practicing that on you also, GRIN)

i hope very much that we can continue a discussion here about this, and look really forward to what comes out of it.

thank you starsky

zig

[zig]

hi there KD

i was sure hoping you were following along. your opinion means a lot to me!!

thanks


Many of our reasons are fear based.

Get rid of the fear means getting rid of the reason which means getting rid of the need for boundaries.

and there you go again - opening my eyes a little more. until i read that, it didn't hit me.

of course - that's why it's been so easy to let go of those boundaries. i don't have those same fears any more - the fear that if i'm nice, h will take advantage of me. the fear that if i go closer he will hurt me more , the fear that if i don't let him know constantly that he is doing the wrong thing, he'll keep doing it, etc etc

aaah - more peace.

i'm so damned good right now KD - i know you will be delighted for me:)

hope you are as good - i think you are. i'm beginning to see where you are at.

btw - picnic time? what's your poison?

i'm in a huggy mood, so big hug coming your way -and don't duck, ok?

((((((( )))))))

zig

ps. in fact anyone who comes my way is getting a hug

[zig]

ng - sweet girl - you sure know how to make a gal feel good.

thank you for all you said, and as i told busting - we ALL need each other on that picnic blanket. i am honored to be there with you, too:)

thanks too as you have generated a great discussion about what is the most difficult decision (or series of decisions) we make while in the ditches ..how to handle contact and boundaries..

yes - if there's any confusing area, it is this one - for all of us. and as i wrote all these posts today i began to see why for the first time. KD's post a few minutes ago sums it up well.

the boundaries are ever-shifting and that's the unease we feel constantly. we want a place to land , to sit tight until this thing blows over one way or the other, but the situations we are in, DEMAND that we stay shifting, ungrounded and constantly adjusting to what we are faced with.

it's the lesson in ultimate flexibility that we are learning here - and until we learn it , until we accept what it is we will stay in that panicky uneasy state, constantly second-guessing ourselves and fearful of what we are doing.

i have finally accepted that there is NO GROUND UNDER MY FEET and that it is okay for it to be that way.

i'll build my ground as i move forward, and so will you and everyone else.


((((( )))))

zig