H is depressed MLC. Abandons me and 2 teen kids for 20 y-old's lifestyle, including A. Amasses huge debts over last 5 years. Anger/shame/guilt interspersed with short periods of normalcy. My gut says he still loves us and, at one level, wants to come back. Visits home everyday when dropping kids after school pick-up. Is still hiding A from me, kids and his family.
I need help with balancing LRT and showing him acceptance, keeping the road home paved and smooth.
The more I withdraw, the more H does. The nicer and more 'normal' I am towards him, the nicer and more normal he is to me.
Constant flashpoint is ongoing financial disaster. It's the source of his claim that he ruined my life, and defines him as a 'failure'. Has referred to himself as a scumbag and adulterer.
Unsure how to deal with his sense of worthlessness. NC is likely to produce greater sense of rejection.
Last edited by dbmod; 06/29/1212:03 AM.
sg Love is PATIENT, love is KIND, LOVE never fails / DB since 2001
I just wanted to chime in, and then I will let the two of you get down to business. Thank you for taking the time to mentor NLW! She is a very special and loving lady, wife, mother and daughter and will benefit greatly from some true "vet" help!
NLW...I am wishing only the very best for YOU...with or without your spouse. I know in my heart either way you and your kids will prosper. I'll be checking on your sitch, and if there's ever any way I can help...just reach out.
I understand you want help balancing LRT and keeping the road home paved and smooth.
It isn't up to you to "deal" with his sense of worthlessness. That is something that he is going to have to figure out for himself.
However, if you wish to keep the road home paved, it is up to you to try not to contribute to increasing his sense of worthlessness.
Validation is something that helps with that. Do you understand what validation is?
I am curious what your true feelings about it are. And how you have dealt/are dealing with them.
Keeping your feelings locked inside is simply a ticking time bomb waiting to go off. However, taking them out on your H, would be a bad move right now.
I also realize that you recently found out he has been with OW again.
How do you feel about that?
Truly feel, not DB speak.
And is that something that you can forgive him for as well as the financial destruction...
These are things that you should address with yourself now...
Something that doesn't get said enough around here is that our true feelings show. No matter how hard we try to hide them, they are there under the surface and they reflect in the sincerity of everything that we do.
When I finally was able to release my anger, find forgivness, find compassion for all the stuff that my X did that hurt me, that was when our relationship truly began to improve.
As we find that peace, our detatchment also comes and that helps to have a relationship that can have contact. Which then allows them to really see the changes that we have made.
So where do you want to start?
Can you be more specific in what you feel you are having difficulty with?
"Acceptance doesn't mean resignation. It means understanding that something is what it is and there's got to be a way through it."--Michael J. Fox
It isn't up to you to "deal" with his sense of worthlessness. That is something that he is going to have to figure out for himself.
Hi Cat, Thanks so much for the time and effort you've put in - truly humbling.
Good point about his feeling worthless - I can't fix this for him.
Hard to stand by and watch him suffer, but as you say below, validation is a way not to increase this.
However, if you wish to keep the road home paved, it is up to you to try not to contribute to increasing his sense of worthlessness.
Validation is something that helps with that. Do you understand what validation is? I think I do. I am aware that in the past I took him for granted and did not tell him when he was doing something good/worthwhile/effortful. My default position is to assume that everyone should do these things anyway - put in the effort/ do what's required/ achieve/keep trying until you succeed whatever the odds...
My H didn't grow up this way. His family mantra was just 'do whatever makes you happy dear' - and there was no history of pulling yourself up by your bootstraps.
So now I am mindful to recognise what he does that constitutes effort/time on our behalf. I tell him that I appreciate what he is doing (when this is relevant); I reinforce his choices to do stuff that he wants to do (good on you for playing football; how great to go sailing, etc).
I am curious what your true feelings about it are. And how you have dealt/are dealing with them.
Keeping your feelings locked inside is simply a ticking time bomb waiting to go off. However, taking them out on your H, would be a bad move right now.
Yes, I agree and have recognised this as something I hadn't dealt with well in the first 6-7 months of my journey here. At first I thought that i was just able to vent on here and act as if to H. But in the last couple of months I think I'm starting to get the idea of the importance of true forgiveness - nothing will work if that's not truly there.
And I think I can offer him unconditional love. My only reservation at the moment is that I can't quite commit to saying "I love you enough to let you go".
I still want to attach a rider to the effect: "because I know you will come back to us in the end". So my love isn't quite 'unconditional' yet.
I also realize that you recently found out he has been with OW again.
How do you feel about that?
Truly feel, not DB speak.
And is that something that you can forgive him for as well as the financial destruction...
These are things that you should address with yourself now...
I was devastated to find out that H was really back with OW.
I have thought hard about it and I can accept that it is just part of the whole MLC experiment. In one sense I'm glad that my H is so 'classic' in his behaviour. It makes it much easier for me to think about what he is doing as something he has little control over. It's a process that he has to move through like so many others before him, and OW is a standard part of this.
It helps that he's told me before that she is not someone that he really feels much connection with - that she is just a sop for his wounded feelings and is someone who flatters him and makes him feel better about himself. It also helps to know that she has no idea of his financial situation, and would probably dump him like a hot potato if she found out.
Something that doesn't get said enough around here is that our true feelings show. No matter how hard we try to hide them, they are there under the surface and they reflect in the sincerity of everything that we do.
Yes, I've seen this creep into my interactions with H from time to time - an edge to my voice; some displeasure coming out when i don't get my own way; obvious disappointment when my expectations aren't met.
But I'm getting more aware of myself in this regard, and accepting that until I can eliminate expectation, show him compassion and unconditional forgiveness, I won't really have changed my pattern of interacting with him, and he'll just experience it as more of the old: "I always disappoint you".
When I finally was able to release my anger, find forgivness, find compassion for all the stuff that my X did that hurt me, that was when our relationship truly began to improve.
As we find that peace, our detatchment also comes and that helps to have a relationship that can have contact. Which then allows them to really see the changes that we have made.
Yes, this is my big-picture goal at the moment.
So where do you want to start?
Can you be more specific in what you feel you are having difficulty with?
Ok. It relates to the idea that I read about when others report what their DB coaches have advised (and also what I read about from SOME successful piecers (like AliSuddenly, ButtterflyMom). And this is along the lines of 'be the OW', be nice and make home a warm, welcoming place to be. Show him that M to you would be different from now on.
OTOH, my H can be seen as cake eating and I can be seen as facilitating this. Not much has changed in my sitch in the last 10 months (aside from his anger having diminished). Many posters here suggest I need to formalise his visitation rights, go dark or even NC, and make him realise what he is going to miss in divorcing me.
So I am a bit stuck to know whether I am being too accommodating and thus just allowing the status quo of a 'faux' marriage to me to continue with little downside for him, or whether i am actually on the right track, but need to give things enough time so that he can begin to trust my changes.
My gut says he wants to come back (but I would say that!). I believe he was so hurt by me, in part, because he loved me so much. And now he feels he could not survive being hurt again if he was to come back.
I also think he has a really strong need to show me how much I hurt him by punishing me by the things he does (his choice of OW) and his apparent callousness (that is SO out of character for him).
He appears stuck, in the sense that he can't stop coming home almost every day (i.e., he seems to want to have the daily contact with ME because he could just drop the kids and go) and yet he is in a semi-public R with OW and is too embarrassed to be seen with me in most public situations, including any school events for the children or activities other than going to the local dog park 'en famille'.
So now I am mindful to recognise what he does that constitutes effort/time on our behalf. I tell him that I appreciate what he is doing (when this is relevant); I reinforce his choices to do stuff that he wants to do (good on you for playing football; how great to go sailing, etc).
Google validation.
You are on the right track. Validation is good for when they are talking to you…ie, “I am a jerk for scheduling a trip while D is having surgery” answer: “I understand how you could feel that way.”
Validation is a way to show that you understand what they are saying, without trying to offer any solution or change their thinking and without agreeing with something you don’t agree with or encouraging something you may actually think is a bad idea.
We are all entitled to our own feelings about things and our feelings and ideas don’t always agree with other people's feelings or ideas. It is a simple way to communicate that you are HEARING what they are saying.
Originally Posted By: Nlw
But in the last couple of months I think I'm starting to get the idea of the importance of true forgiveness - nothing will work if that's not truly there.
This is very true.
The thing about forgivness, is truly a gift we give ourselves. When we forgive, it frees our hearts and heads of all of the negative stuff that comes with our hurt feelings and anger.
Originally Posted By: nlw
And I think I can offer him unconditional love. My only reservation at the moment is that I can't quite commit to saying "I love you enough to let you go".
I still want to attach a rider to the effect: "because I know you will come back to us in the end". So my love isn't quite 'unconditional' yet.
I am glad that you recognize this. It is something to work towards.
When we love someone enough to let them go, we actually free ourselves as well.
Have you read anything about codependency?
Originally Posted By: NLW
I have thought hard about it and I can accept that it is just part of the whole MLC experiment. In one sense I'm glad that my H is so 'classic' in his behaviour. It makes it much easier for me to think about what he is doing as something he has little control over. It's a process that he has to move through like so many others before him, and OW is a standard part of this.
It helps that he's told me before that she is not someone that he really feels much connection with - that she is just a sop for his wounded feelings and is someone who flatters him and makes him feel better about himself. It also helps to know that she has no idea of his financial situation, and would probably dump him like a hot potato if she found out.
You might not like hearing this…
While it is easy to say MLC behavior, no connection, etc… it isn’t as easy to let go of the feelings that you have…
You are never gonna like what he has done. You will probably never agree with it. You may never really understand it either. You have to forgive and let it go though.
Originally Posted By: NLW
But I'm getting more aware of myself in this regard, and accepting that until I can eliminate expectation, show him compassion and unconditional forgiveness, I won't really have changed my pattern of interacting with him, and he'll just experience it as more of the old: "I always disappoint you".
Bingo.
Originally Posted By: Cat
So where do you want to start?
Can you be more specific in what you feel you are having difficulty with?
Originally Posted By: NLW
Ok. It relates to the idea that I read about when others report what their DB coaches have advised (and also what I read about from SOME successful piecers (like AliSuddenly, ButtterflyMom). And this is along the lines of 'be the OW', be nice and make home a warm, welcoming place to be. Show him that M to you would be different from now on.
OTOH, my H can be seen as cake eating and I can be seen as facilitating this. Not much has changed in my sitch in the last 10 months (aside from his anger having diminished). Many posters here suggest I need to formalise his visitation rights, go dark or even NC, and make him realise what he is going to miss in divorcing me.
So I am a bit stuck to know whether I am being too accommodating and thus just allowing the status quo of a 'faux' marriage to me to continue with little downside for him, or whether i am actually on the right track, but need to give things enough time so that he can begin to trust my changes.
My gut says he wants to come back (but I would say that!). I believe he was so hurt by me, in part, because he loved me so much. And now he feels he could not survive being hurt again if he was to come back.
I also think he has a really strong need to show me how much I hurt him by punishing me by the things he does (his choice of OW) and his apparent callousness (that is SO out of character for him).
He appears stuck, in the sense that he can't stop coming home almost every day (i.e., he seems to want to have the daily contact with ME because he could just drop the kids and go) and yet he is in a semi-public R with OW and is too embarrassed to be seen with me in most public situations, including any school events for the children or activities other than going to the local dog park 'en famille'.
There is a lot to cover here.
Alisudden, went through a ton a crap and back and forth stuff with her BF for a very long time. I do believe that they are happily reconciled now.
I understand exactly what you are saying about how to act and what is recommended. For a long time I kept a physical connection with my X. Because it was a way that we did connect. I believed there was OW, although he always denied, and I still did it. Until it got to a point where I decided that it was negatively affecting MY self esteem. Eventually, I stopped it, not because of what he was or wasn’t doing, but because I couldn’t sell myself short anymore. I didn’t see it as helping the situation, in fact, it got to a point where it was hurting it because I was developing new resentments toward him. I never looked at it as cake eating, because it worked for me for a while.
So what I tell people about this, since it isn’t a decision I can recommend or condemn, is that if you can handle it emotionally and believe it is helpful, then there is nothing wrong with it.
Personally, I am not a huge fan of going dark or NC just to show them what they are going to miss. I believe that going dark or dim is a good way to give yourself time to process what is happening, to grow and to heal, and to regroup so that you can have interactions that are positive.
I don't think doing anything simply as a way to "show them" is worth doing. Our actions have to be for us. In the end we are the only person we can change and we have to live with the consequences of our choices.
I wanted to be able to look in the mirror and know that everything I did, I did for my own benefit and not to be manipulative or to try to "game play" my way into a reconciliation.
Ten months in MLC, is a drop in the bucket. I am going to go with MLC because you seem to believe that is what is going on, because that isn’t a call I am comfortable making for anyone’s situation but my own. I do believe that you are probably on the right track there as well.
So if the anger has diminished a bit in 10 months, that is a good thing. It will come back from time to time, so be prepared.
His appearing stuck, right now is a good thing IMO.
It is commonly said that MLC=confusion.
Don’t let that confusion hinder what you are trying to do, but know that it isn’t a bad thing.
So how do you feel about the flirting/physical contact?
How does it affect you?
I read that you had some success with it the other day and then he flipped the anger switch.
Not a huge surprise LOL.
Also, how do you feel with casual contact with him?
How do you feel when you guys don’t communicate?
How does having contact with him change your expectations?
Lets see if we can get you on a path that works for you, not on a path that works for your H. I don’t know if that makes sense to you yet, but it will.
"Acceptance doesn't mean resignation. It means understanding that something is what it is and there's got to be a way through it."--Michael J. Fox
Hey Cat, Thank you so much for your detailed reply.
Originally Posted By: cat04
Google validation.
You are on the right track. Validation is good for when they are talking to you…ie, “I am a jerk for scheduling a trip while D is having surgery” answer: “I understand how you could feel that way.”
Validation is a way to show that you understand what they are saying, without trying to offer any solution or change their thinking and without agreeing with something you don’t agree with or encouraging something you may actually think is a bad idea.
We are all entitled to our own feelings about things and our feelings and ideas don’t always agree with other people's feelings or ideas. It is a simple way to communicate that you are HEARING what they are saying.
I did google - and found a good site that lists a lot of examples of how to validate. I needed some other ideas because I've been saying things like "I understand how you could feel that way", and my H doesn't react well.
He usually says: "You don't understand how I feel at all". "You are so condescending".
Or he mimics me: "I know how you must feel" using a sing-song voice.
The thing about forgivness, is truly a gift we give ourselves. When we forgive, it frees our hearts and heads of all of the negative stuff that comes with our hurt feelings and anger.
Sometimes I feel like I have truly forgiven H and sometimes I still feel hurt and angry, so I obviously still have a way to go!
Have you read anything about codependency?
I'm re-reading 2 Melodie Beatty books at the moment. I was really co-dependent based on what I read here, so figured I needed a refresher so that I don't fall back into old ways.
You might not like hearing this…
While it is easy to say MLC behavior, no connection, etc… it isn’t as easy to let go of the feelings that you have…
You are never gonna like what he has done. You will probably never agree with it. You may never really understand it either. You have to forgive and let it go though.
Yeah, about OW - I think I've had long enough to deal with and get over it as something I just have to accept and get past.
This is about the 3rd time he's gone back to her. Over the last few years I tended to bring the A up whenever I got really mad at H. I can see how this is completely antithetical to having a relationship with anyone, so I think I've finally gotten it.
Originally Posted By: NLW
But I'm getting more aware of myself in this regard, and accepting that until I can eliminate expectation, show him compassion and unconditional forgiveness, I won't really have changed my pattern of interacting with him, and he'll just experience it as more of the old: "I always disappoint you".
Bingo.
Great!
Originally Posted By: Cat
So where do you want to start?
Can you be more specific in what you feel you are having difficulty with?
Originally Posted By: NLW
Ok. It relates to the idea that I read about when others report what their DB coaches have advised (and also what I read about from SOME successful piecers (like AliSuddenly, ButtterflyMom). And this is along the lines of 'be the OW', be nice and make home a warm, welcoming place to be. Show him that M to you would be different from now on.
OTOH, my H can be seen as cake eating and I can be seen as facilitating this. Not much has changed in my sitch in the last 10 months (aside from his anger having diminished). Many posters here suggest I need to formalise his visitation rights, go dark or even NC, and make him realise what he is going to miss in divorcing me.
So I am a bit stuck to know whether I am being too accommodating and thus just allowing the status quo of a 'faux' marriage to me to continue with little downside for him, or whether i am actually on the right track, but need to give things enough time so that he can begin to trust my changes.
My gut says he wants to come back (but I would say that!). I believe he was so hurt by me, in part, because he loved me so much. And now he feels he could not survive being hurt again if he was to come back.
I also think he has a really strong need to show me how much I hurt him by punishing me by the things he does (his choice of OW) and his apparent callousness (that is SO out of character for him).
He appears stuck, in the sense that he can't stop coming home almost every day (i.e., he seems to want to have the daily contact with ME because he could just drop the kids and go) and yet he is in a semi-public R with OW and is too embarrassed to be seen with me in most public situations, including any school events for the children or activities other than going to the local dog park 'en famille'.
There is a lot to cover here.
Alisudden, went through a ton a crap and back and forth stuff with her BF for a very long time. I do believe that they are happily reconciled now.
I understand exactly what you are saying about how to act and what is recommended. For a long time I kept a physical connection with my X. Because it was a way that we did connect. I believed there was OW, although he always denied, and I still did it. Until it got to a point where I decided that it was negatively affecting MY self esteem. Eventually, I stopped it, not because of what he was or wasn’t doing, but because I couldn’t sell myself short anymore. I didn’t see it as helping the situation, in fact, it got to a point where it was hurting it because I was developing new resentments toward him. I never looked at it as cake eating, because it worked for me for a while.
Thanks Cat, this really makes sense to me and helps me to think more clearly about what I should do. Your point about developing resentment is one that really hits home for me.
My resentment concerning things H does/doesn't do is something I've really got to recognise and grapple with. It always pushes me to anger and confrontation.
So what I tell people about this, since it isn’t a decision I can recommend or condemn, is that if you can handle it emotionally and believe it is helpful, then there is nothing wrong with it.
Personally, I am not a huge fan of going dark or NC just to show them what they are going to miss. I believe that going dark or dim is a good way to give yourself time to process what is happening, to grow and to heal, and to regroup so that you can have interactions that are positive.
This also seems to me to be a great way to think about things. Taking time away from him to process or re-group is often just what I need. I still have a tendency to 'react' in the moment, without thinking. And this is rarely conducive to positive interaction.
I don't think doing anything simply as a way to "show them" is worth doing. Our actions have to be for us. In the end we are the only person we can change and we have to live with the consequences of our choices.
I wanted to be able to look in the mirror and know that everything I did, I did for my own benefit and not to be manipulative or to try to "game play" my way into a reconciliation.
Interesting that you should say this. MY H often calls me 'manipulative' in the heat of disagreements. I can't see it, but he is very clear that this is how he sees me. I need to pay more attention to when he says it and try to work on doing things differently. Mind you, he also refers to himself as a manipulator....
Ten months in MLC, is a drop in the bucket. I am going to go with MLC because you seem to believe that is what is going on, because that isn’t a call I am comfortable making for anyone’s situation but my own. I do believe that you are probably on the right track there as well.
So if the anger has diminished a bit in 10 months, that is a good thing. It will come back from time to time, so be prepared.
Thanks for this feedback; it really helps to have your opinion.
His appearing stuck, right now is a good thing IMO.
It is commonly said that MLC=confusion.
Don’t let that confusion hinder what you are trying to do, but know that it isn’t a bad thing.
So how do you feel about the flirting/physical contact?
How does it affect you?
I loved it. Made me feel good, confident, empowered.
I read that you had some success with it the other day and then he flipped the anger switch.
Not a huge surprise LOL.
Also, how do you feel with casual contact with him?
I like it. I do not want to move to scheduled visitation around the children.
How do you feel when you guys don’t communicate?
These days, OK. I prefer to hear from him/see him, but if it doesn't happen, i'm OK.
How does having contact with him change your expectations?
I still read positive contact with him as meaning that he's not done. Can't seem to help it. We usually seem so normal / instantly connecting about a whole range of things. I try not to have expectations - by thinking that nothing is going to change in such a short time frame. I'm figuring 2 years is more realistic if there's going to be any movement at all. And by then, I imagine I'll be in a better place for dealing with things if he doesn't move towards us at all.
Lets see if we can get you on a path that works for you, not on a path that works for your H. I don’t know if that makes sense to you yet, but it will.
I did google - and found a good site that lists a lot of examples of how to validate. I needed some other ideas because I've been saying things like "I understand how you could feel that way", and my H doesn't react well.
He usually says: "You don't understand how I feel at all". "You are so condescending".
Or he mimics me: "I know how you must feel" using a sing-song voice.
I am glad you did that.
Personally, I love validation as a tool, it also works well with our children.
However, I dislike being validated sometimes because on the receiving end, it can feel very phony. I too have call bull on someone validating me. One because I understood exactly what was being done and two because in the moment, it really didn't work well.
Usually, it helps to minimize conflict in a situation. So finding examples of how to validate and trying them out to see what works is good. The "I understand" phrase seems to be the easiest one for people to grasp in understanding the concept.
I had gotten the impression from what you wrote that you were doing more praising and postitive reinforcement stuff, which is fine unless you really don't agree with what you are saying.
The goal, while trying to find ways to minimize conflict, is to also be authentic and true to yourself.
Originally Posted By: NWL
This is about the 3rd time he's gone back to her. Over the last few years I tended to bring the A up whenever I got really mad at H. I can see how this is completely antithetical to having a relationship with anyone, so I think I've finally gotten it.
Good. It may still creep in every once in a while. You are human.
Bringing it up, just reopens old wounds and actually creates new ones. It will look like you haven't gotten over it (especially if you are angry) and you will look like the same old NWL.
Eventually, the time MAY come where you can talk about it, talk about how you felt, how hurt you were, etc... in a healthy, nonblaming, non confrontational way.
That time is not now and won't be for a long time though.
Originally Posted By: NWL
My resentment concerning things H does/doesn't do is something I've really got to recognise and grapple with. It always pushes me to anger and confrontation.
This comes, in part, because of expectations. When we expect people to behave a certain way, and they don't, we get let down. Disappointed. It will manifest in us as anger outwardly.
We won't be able to control this every single second of the day, but we should be able to control it most of the time.
Somethings that help me, are looking at the intention behind the act. If I can recognize that something isn't being done to intentionally hurt me, then I am much more able to let it go.
Another thing is looking at what my expectations were. And if I had clearly verbalized them or just expected someone to mindread me "because they know me" or whatever other excuse I can come up with.
At that point, I usually realize that my anger and disappointment is really with myself and not the other person, and I can deal with it.
One very important thing, and some people call this being a "doormat" is to recognize that confrontation isn't always a good thing. Sometimes it isn't necessary at all.
Very often, I get quiet. I take time to process my feelings and thoughts privately, or I type them out to the little angel/devil that sits on my shoulder and I deal with them before I ever say anything to anyone.
I have learned that this requires brutally honesty with myself. And that can be hard. Because it is easy to direct the emotion of the moment onto someone else or a situation, and often when I start digging, I find that the "offense" was usually just a trigger for something else.
Sometimes to get to that honesty, I have to vent first. And you have to find the right forum/person/medium to vent to.
Some people write letters to the universe, some journal, some scream to God, whatever it takes to get the emotion out.
Coming here is good for venting. Just don't do it to your H because that will just appear like you are looking for a fight, blaming, etc...
The 48 hour rule, is very good for these situations.
Say nothing for 48 hours. And then only say something if you still feel as strongly as you did and really feel it needs to be addressed.
Originally Posted By: NWL
This also seems to me to be a great way to think about things. Taking time away from him to process or re-group is often just what I need. I still have a tendency to 'react' in the moment, without thinking. And this is rarely conducive to positive interaction.
We don't want to react to things if we can avoid it. Reacting is part of what got us here in the first place. People are born with a "flight or fight" instinct when they get into uncomfortable situations. While this is good in a life threatening situation, it isn't good for our daily interactions with other people. When we are in professional situations, that instinct might be triggered but we will control it because it is improper to speak to our boss, a police officer, etc that way. At home, we tend to go with it. I never understood why we are comfortable treating strangers with more respect and patience than we are with the people we love.
Things can be dealt with well without yelling, anger, hurtful words if we just give ourselves the time to process the emotion first.
Originally Posted By: NWL
MY H often calls me 'manipulative' in the heat of disagreements. I can't see it, but he is very clear that this is how he sees me. I need to pay more attention to when he says it and try to work on doing things differently. Mind you, he also refers to himself as a manipulator....
Yes pay attention to when he may say it now, also think back to times when he has said it in the past. Look at how you were acting and what you were saying and see if you can see it from the outside. And see if there were better ways you could have handled yourself. Start working on it before it comes up again so you are prepared.
Post examples here and see what others say. How they see it. Most of the people around here can spot that stuff because we have learned to look for it within ourselves and aren't afraid to say something.
So things that are working for you...
1. Flirting, dressing up...made you feel empowered.
Keep it up. When we look in the mirror and like what we see, we project that outwardly. When we feel attractive, we appear attractive and confident. People respond to us in more positive ways. And that boosts that attractivness.
And just because you are flirting and kind doesn't mean that there has to be sexual contact and doesn't mean that he is coming home. Try to think of him as any man you might encounter in the world and that it was simply an interaction with no deep and hidden meaning.
2. If the way you are working out the visitation works for you and your children and doesn't cause too much of a disruption in YOUR life, then keep it up. Your children are teens correct? That should be mostly up to them and based on their schedules anyway. You may want to consider taking time for yourself to do things while he is with them, there is nothing that says you have to sit with him as a "family" every minute. You probably wouldn't do that if things were good. And down the road, you may decide that it is too much of an intrusion in YOUR life and want to change it and that would be ok too.
3. Validation as a communication tool.
Things to keep working on...
1. Lowering expectations...this also helps with detatching. 2. Acting versus REacting... 3. Codependent stuff... 4. Self-confidence... 5. Releasing control...
I have read a lot in your posts about your H and your sitch. Not a lot about you.
What are you doing to GAL? What are you doing to empower yourself, without relying on him? What are your likes, your hobbies, your dreams that don't relate to him at all? Do you have a bucket list?
"Acceptance doesn't mean resignation. It means understanding that something is what it is and there's got to be a way through it."--Michael J. Fox
Your feedback is wonderful. I feel so privileged to have your input.
What I am doing is going back over everything you've said and re-reading it over and again.
I want your great suggestions to stick and become part of my new ways of dealing with things (big and small) that I've stuffed up on in the past.
A couple of things that I'll focus on in this post: First, your comment:
"Somethings that help me, are looking at the intention behind the act. If I can recognize that something isn't being done to intentionally hurt me, then I am much more able to let it go."
I posted elsewhere about the sense I'm getting, as time wears on, that my H is trying to show me how much he's been hurt by making me feel as hurt as he is. A sort of 'punishment' if you like.
My reason for thinking this is that his choice of OW (long story) and his actions during the 'separation' seem to be designed to be as humiliating and hurtful as can be.
Now, I'm not saying he's actually AWARE of this, but his choices and patterns of behaving are just too close to the mark (of deliberate punishment) to ignore.
This is all starting to sound a bit like I'm paranoid or a conspiracy theorist, so I'll stop. I can't convey what I really mean without going into a huge amount of our relationship history... but suffice it to say that regardless of his intentions, I feel as if he is miffed when i don't SHOW hurt.
So I've been struggling a bit with the idea that the more confident, happy, GAL I am in my life, the more he resents me and feels bad about himself.
Any comments on this pattern of thinking gratefully received.
Second point from you: Yes my kids are teens.
My GAL activities are still a lot to do with them. E.g., they attend two different schools so all of the sports, music, drama, plus parent/teacher stuff is involved X2. Plus all the ferrying around of the kids to their friends' places, to and from weekend work, and to parties, etc. It all takes up a lot of time.
I have a full-time high-level professional job where the norm is to work your butt off if you want to be competitive. So nights/weekends/holidays are all grist to the mill.
I am also an only child, so the care of my elderly parents falls to me - they are 88 and 86 respectively and still living independently, although it's only a matter of months now, I feel, before they will need residential care.
I struggle to find time for 'me only' activities and my financial situation is bad at the moment. I do get to the gym. And I spend a lot of time at parks/beach/walking with our 2 dogs.
And I like gardening - which, because of the size of our yard, is a good thing! I have several fruit trees and roses that are crying out for pruning at the moment so that will take care of the next many weekends.
I also like watching football and try to get to as many games as I can. This is also a professional interest of mine (I consult re recruitment).
Travel has always been our big family thing because it was a big part of my job (conferences, etc). Now, however, there is no cash to fund it so I am feeling the loss, personally and professionally.
I had so much fun, privilege and joy in my life that I've never had the need for a bucket list - other than, say, more travel, or time to read all those books that I want to get through.
Now, I'm not saying he's actually AWARE of this, but his choices and patterns of behaving are just too close to the mark (of deliberate punishment) to ignore.
NLW, this ^^^ is exactly what I was talking about.
Subconsciously he could be trying to punish or hurt you. Actually, with MLC, it is a part of it. They fight back against all of the things that they think we have done.
However, the conscious intent is what I look at. It is similar to our children. They will do things that we don't like, will say things when they are small because they don't know any better, but they didn't necessarily mean to hurt us. And that is where the difference is.
I realize that not everyone views things like I do, it took me a long time to find this place of peace and understanding. I can't explain exactly how I got there other than my faith led me to it.
And no you don't sound paranoid or like a conspiracy theorist. LOL.
Originally Posted By: NWL
So I've been struggling a bit with the idea that the more confident, happy, GAL I am in my life, the more he resents me and feels bad about himself.
I understand this very well. In fact most LBS feel this way at one point or another.
DB is at times very counter intuitive.
He may for a while be upset that you are happy right now. Because he left you so you should be miserable. However, who wants to be with an unhappy person? Who would want to come back to that?
It is part of MLC as well.
I know this thread is for bootcamp but I am going to ask another poster to share her thoughts on this topic as well as anything else she might like to add. Because I know it is something that she struggled with as well.
Originally Posted By: NLW
Yes my kids are teens.
My GAL activities are still a lot to do with them. E.g., they attend two different schools so all of the sports, music, drama, plus parent/teacher stuff is involved X2. Plus all the ferrying around of the kids to their friends' places, to and from weekend work, and to parties, etc. It all takes up a lot of time.
Oh boy do I remember this. When my S first started driving himself, I didn't know what to do with all of the extra time I had.
Originally Posted By: NLW
I struggle to find time for 'me only' activities and my financial situation is bad at the moment. I do get to the gym. And I spend a lot of time at parks/beach/walking with our 2 dogs.
Don't let time or finances be an excuse to not take care of yourself.
While I realize it's hard, I have been in a very similar situation to what you described, self care is very important.
When I say GAL, I include self care because so many of us, especially women, get so involved in taking care of others and meeting our obligations that we forget to do it.
I would like to see you try to find some time, even if it's an hour a week that you can dedicate strictly to yourself. (Split it into two half hours if you need to). For a bubble bath, to read a bit of a book or magazine (not self help stuff), to play a dumb computer game, whatever...
Something for you. That makes you feel good, helps you relax, takes you away from your normal routine and just gets your head into a place of peace and silence.
Even while you are gardening maybe. Turn the phone off, tell the kids not to bother you unless it's life or death, you just need some quiet time.
Can you afford a coffee once a week? Take a book and go to a coffee house and just sit and read and sip or people watch.
Originally Posted By: NLW
I had so much fun, privilege and joy in my life that I've never had the need for a bucket list - other than, say, more travel, or time to read all those books that I want to get through.
I didn't think I needed a bucket list either.
When I started stretching my imagination, I realized I was wrong.
The things on it, some are things I may never do, like hang gliding (even though I have always wanted to, finding that courage may be beyond me), but there are some things that I really would like to accomplish, like getting to Alaska.
You have things you would like, more travel, time to read certain books...
Get creative with it. It's like the ultimate wish list IMO. Be really specific, and remember that it can include really small things. Like catching a firefly one more time...
It can be whatever you want, and it is nice to have something to look forward to.
You have a lot to think about and begin to work on. I will be around when you are ready...
One more thing...read the MLC resources. Try to understand what you are dealing with, what to expect. It helps.
"Acceptance doesn't mean resignation. It means understanding that something is what it is and there's got to be a way through it."--Michael J. Fox
I see you've paired up with the wise and wonderful Cat! She asked me to stop by, so here I am.
About 2 1/2 years ago when I found this place, Cat found me. She took me under her wing, and she among others saw me through the darkest hours of my life.
I came here looking to save my marriage and what was more important is that I learned to save myself with a little help from my friends. I am truly blessed to have found this place and to count Cat as a friend.
If there was one thing I could stress to the LBS of a MLCer is that MLC is a very long drawn out journey. It takes more patience, compassion, and understanding than you'd ever believe you had in you. MLC is often measured in years instead of months. There are also those MLCers that don't ever emerge from the tunnel. However, I have been told and read that most do eventually come out the other side.
There are silver linings to this also. You have the chance to take your own journey but without the confusion and guilt of a MLCer. I have been able to connect the dots for myself through this and have a greater understanding of how to go about fixing the only part of this I have any control over, me. I have forgiven myself for my part in the downfall of my M, therefore I have been able to forgive my H. That doesn't mean I still don't have some anger here and there about what he's done, but it dissipates and I'm able to let it go much faster now.
Quote:
Originally Posted By: NWL So I've been struggling a bit with the idea that the more confident, happy, GAL I am in my life, the more he resents me and feels bad about himself.
This part here ^^^^ is what Cat wanted me to comment on. I struggled with this too. As Cat said, DBing is counter intuitive. As your MLCer is out there floundering around, depressed, guilt ridden, and not finding the happiness they thought they would, you, the LBS, displaying confidence, happiness, and GAL are very attractive. Ask yourself who would you be more attracted to, a sad sack or someone that radiates having their stuff together?
If your H feels bad about himself because you look like you're enjoying life, well that gives him something to think about with the choices he made. You have planted seeds for him.
Yes, you're going to be the target for all the blame for what was wrong with your M. Own your part, but don't for one minute take on anymore than you're responsible for. MLCer's very seldom take any of the blame.
They think that they will find their happiness externally and that's why they run. Running keeps them from having to examine their internal issues. They can't or won't face the pain of wounds that run deep and were created long before you ever met them. That's where the saying comes from: You didn't break your MLCer and you can't fix them.
That's why the MLC journey lasts so long, because unless and until they figure out that their unhappiness is coming from within, they keep looking outside themselves and only being able to put band aids over those wounds.
You sound well grounded, strong and are doing the work. Doesn't hurt to have Cat with your back either! Good for you and keep it up! You and your children regardless of how your sitch turns out will be better than OK.
I really appreciate how you've jumped in to help. Thank you so much for your precious time and the sage advice and encouragement you're providing.
Originally Posted By: seeking answers
If there was one thing I could stress to the LBS of a MLCer is that MLC is a very long drawn out journey. It takes more patience, compassion, and understanding than you'd ever believe you had in you. MLC is often measured in years instead of months. There are also those MLCers that don't ever emerge from the tunnel. However, I have been told and read that most do eventually come out the other side.
I keep telling myself this, but it does help to hear it. I feel I've been on H's MLC journey now for about 4 years (the crazy spending, the OW on and off again), even though it is only around a year since BD. I guess I keep hearing a little voice telling me over and again "It's surely nearly over by now?" every time I keep re-setting my clock.
If your H feels bad about himself because you look like you're enjoying life, well that gives him something to think about with the choices he made. You have planted seeds for him.
Yes, I can see your point here. There really is no alternative for how to live my life/be in the world. Showing my sadness and hurt would turn everyone away.
MLCer's very seldom take any of the blame.
Thanks for reminding me of this too. It helps me a lot to hear from others who have gone through the same thing.
They think that they will find their happiness externally and that's why they run. Running keeps them from having to examine their internal issues. They can't or won't face the pain of wounds that run deep and were created long before you ever met them. That's where the saying comes from: You didn't break your MLCer and you can't fix them.
That's why the MLC journey lasts so long, because unless and until they figure out that their unhappiness is coming from within, they keep looking outside themselves and only being able to put band aids over those wounds.
If only there was some way to make them see the obvious! Ha, this is the sort of thinking that brings me down every time. Time and patience, time and patience.....
I have only commented on a few of your points above, but please know that I am reading and re-reading your words (as I am those of Cat) and they are giving me strength and direction in going on.
Again, thank you so much for dropping by and please feel free any time at all. I am so pleased to hear from you and very grateful to have Cat's guidance as well. What a wonderful place this is! Best, NLW.
I figure something I really need help with is my 'auto' response.
I am just rubbish at stopping my unthinking knee-jerk reactions to things my H says. Even after all this time..
Don't know if it's even possible to make any suggestions - other than: YOU JUST HAVE TO STOP & THINK BEFORE YOU BLURT.
Case in point.
H scheduled a business trip away on the day D16 was to have surgery. He forgot. It was only wisdom teeth, but did involve general anaesthetic and admission to hospital.
She had the procedure done at 2pm and was home by 6pm. H didn't ring me to ask about D16 until 8.30pm. I'd texted "D16 is out of surgery and OK" at 3pm, but got no response.
Anyway, when he rings, H says almost first thing: "Did she get the flowers?"
Now I am amped because i've recently found out that H is spending money like a mad-man on things like restaurants and booze, when the kids and i are scrounging to pay bills and buy food. He is maxed out on all credit cards and deeply in debt to me, his parents, my parents, etc.
SO, I say, without thinking, "What flowers - where did you send them?" And there is a tone in my voice that indicates without doubt that I think he is crazy for sending flowers to someone who is in day surgery for 4 hrs (would be like sending flowers to the dental surgery). He just says, lamely "They told me they'd delivered them to the hospital".
I pretty much felt sick at the thought of $70 or so going off into the ether, and ended the conversation.
My point is, I really judged him again. And this is one of his big points.
I just can't seem to stop myself blurting out when I hear something that i think is stupid (and, believe me, there's a lot that I think is stupid).
Any thoughts?
Maybe I should just remember to count to 5, literally, before I reply to anything he says??? I worry a bit that this might not even guarantee that i wouldn't 'judge' even then.
Maybe I am just a constant judger. Not sure I know how to disagree without judging. Maybe I just need to shut up more often.
Our situations are very similar it's uncanny. My H does not want contact though or at least very little. Plus he doesn't make plans with our kids. When I last spoke to him, no matter what was said, everything turned back to him. I just let him talk.
Me41 H45 D18 S10 M21 T24 Bomb May 2012 Moved out June 14, 2012
I think it's ok to have whatever thoughts you have, but I also think you need to examine where those thoughts come from before you react or speak.
Sometimes I will think someone has done something really stupid, and when I look at why I think it's stupid, most often it is simply because it is different from what I would have done or said...
That doesn't really make it stupid and I need to be very careful in my reactions to not make someone feel that is what I feel.
Thought stopping, the 48 hour rule (wait 48 hours before you respond and see how you feel then), snapping a rubberband on your wrist as a distraction...
Google thought stopping for different techniques. Some people visualize a stop sign...
Whatever works for you to help you keep your mouth shut, and gives YOU the time that you need to decide what it really is that you want to convey to someone else if anything at all...
How are you doing otherwise?
"Acceptance doesn't mean resignation. It means understanding that something is what it is and there's got to be a way through it."--Michael J. Fox
Hi Cat, I'm OK thanks. Hope you are well and enjoying life!
I'm trying to focus on being more patient and not 're-acting' to every little thing.
Sometimes i'm better at it than others. I still have a tendency to react without thinking. I need to realise that there are other points of view and that every opinion does not have to be argued for its pros and cons.
Just another moment to practise acceptance, I suppose.
Another goal is to try to reduce the amount of time i spend thinking about my sitch. So exhausting and taking a toll on my working life.
Another minor thing is to try not to have an anxiety 'attack' every time i see that H is phoning me. I've tried to let his calls go to voice mail, but he will not leave messages. And if i don't answer his calls, he retaliates like clockwork - so the next time I need to contact him (and it is only when there is a real need that I do this), he pays me back by not answering (and I'm not imagining it, he is very much like this).
Standing for one's M and DB-ing is so tiring. I sometimes think I'd just be better off encouraging him to disappear from our lives so we could just forget about him.
I have to head out for work so I need to make this brief.
I understand those anxiety attacks. I still have them sometimes when I hear from X. It's like "what do you want now?"
Try to breathe through them and know that the interaction doesn't have to be bad.
I am sorry that he feels that you should be at his beck and call when he phones you.
I have learned that if it's life or death, he will leave a message or text or something...
It really is ok to live your life and not be available to him every second of the day. And the world isn't going to end if you choose not to answer him right away. I promise.
What are you doing to work on not "reacting"?
Have you tried doing anything to up your self care like I suggested?
You have to find the value in yourself sweetie. It isn't tied into whether he comes back or not.
Do more of what actually works for you instead of worrying about what is working for him.
I will elaborate more later (yes, I've been keeping up with your other thread).
In the meantime, try to have a good evening. Put the kids to bed, take a bubble bath with candles and some music and focus on relaxing.
Dbing and standing are exhausting. Which is part of why we have to care for ourselves and have patience with ourselves during this process.
It really does do a world of good.
"Acceptance doesn't mean resignation. It means understanding that something is what it is and there's got to be a way through it."--Michael J. Fox
I wanted to pull some stuff back up to your bootcamp thread.
It sparked some very interesting debate and I think that is wonderful but I also believe that in some ways that has taken the focus off of what you are trying to work on.
Originally Posted By: NLW
Sometimes it just hits me how completely insane this limbo really is.
Is this how it’s supposed to be if one accepts one’s new reality, ignores the OW as a mere symptom, and gets on with acting ‘as if' and being the best you that you can be?
It feels so WRONG at times. And, in this sense, I get what Starsky is saying over on Zig’s thread (I think). I want to scream at my H – How dare you carry on an A and then come in here as if everything is OK and normal!!!!
This is what actually brought on the conversation re: boundaries and what followed.
I will reserve my thoughts about that here, and I will simply respond to this.
It’s ok to feel these feelings.
The limbo is weird, there is no doubt about that. It makes you wonder if anything you are doing is right or wrong or if you have lost your mind as well.
All of that is simply normal and a part of the process.
Originally Posted By: NLW
He is going to continue to be in my life as my children's father, and I want more than a non-speaking relationship with him in future.
You stated this and this may be the most minimal thing you can hope for but it is definitely a desirable goal.
Getting back to you other goals will help you to hopefully achieve this, if nothing else.
Originally Posted By: NLW
I need to think about him as a learning how to walk again. I need to have patience and remember that it will take a long time to re-build his trust and overcome his hurt.
Just as it will take time to overcome your own hurt and develop your own trust again.
Trust is the easiest thing to lose in a relationship and the hardest thing to regain.
Originally Posted By: NLW
More importantly, I want to see if I can overcome my previous knee-jerk reactions to the brutal reality of my situation. I don't want to lash out in anger and I've got to realise I can't control another human being. I've also got to be sure that my happiness depends on me and not on what someone else does to me or with me. Unless I can work these things out there's not much hope for me in a future relationship. And what better testing ground than in the crucible of this personal drama?
You stated this more than once on this thread and on your others.
What have you been doing to get to this point?
How is the thought stopping coming?
How is the self care coming?
Has anything happened that you have been able to not have a “knee-jerk” reaction to?
Not necessarily in your sitch but in your life?
Something that happens as we begin to make changes, is that those changes radiate into our entire lives and all of our relationships.
We begin to see that our overall behavior and thought process changes and the way we act with all people changes.
I want to keep you on track here so that in the future you are able to make choices regarding your sitch and more importantly your life that feel right to you.
Decisions that you don’t have to ask yourself a million what if’s about.
So, let’s get back to the goals.
How are they coming?
"Acceptance doesn't mean resignation. It means understanding that something is what it is and there's got to be a way through it."--Michael J. Fox
Hey Cat, Sorry to take so long to reply - I lost a long post to the ether recently so have had to re-do.
The limbo is weird, there is no doubt about that. It makes you wonder if anything you are doing is right or wrong or if you have lost your mind as well.
All of that is simply normal and a part of the process.
Good to hear this view. It soothes my frayed nerves.
How is the thought stopping coming?
I'm getting better at this with continued practice.
How is the self care coming?
OK, but I'm so busy trying to run the house, the kids, care for my parents, and do my job.
Has anything happened that you have been able to not have a “knee-jerk” reaction to?
Yep. H announced that he was off to the UK for a 'business' trip. I silently flipped out thinking of what this would mean in terms of $$$, but to him, I just said "Wow, That's exciting."
A few days later he announced he was also going to Istambul. This was getting way freaky (there is absolutely no reason for him to go there - part from the fact that I'd been there before i met him and had always said how great it was and how we should go some day). Again, I just responded enthusiastically. No interrogation, no taking the bait. There's no point, I realise now. I can't control what he does; his life is his life.
Not necessarily in your sitch but in your life?
I'm much more compassionate to people in RL now. In my job, for instance, I have to deal with a lot of requests for extensions, special considerations, applications to re-sit failed exams and assignments. I pretty much always treated these applications with a good dose of cynicism. Polite, but suspicious of those who couldn't just power through and do the business. I would never have asked for special consideration when I was a student. Now, I know how life can bring you to your knees and make it pretty much impossible to concentrate and get things done to a timeframe. I listen and I empathise. I understand. I'm a better person.
I want to keep you on track here so that in the future you are able to make choices regarding your sitch and more importantly your life that feel right to you.
Great, thanks - just what I need at the moment (getting a bit lost in the cross-fire of the debate on my thread).
So, let’s get back to the goals.
How are they coming?
Ok, my biggest one is to get the constant focus off my H and onto me. This will be easier when he's away for 3 weeks soon.
Goal of moving on will be tested a bit today. H's family is holding a birthday lunch for his aunt and H told me i should go and take the kids. He will not attend.
At first i thought this was a terrible bind - seems like I am insisting on going and making it hard for H to attend his own family gathering. But then I just thought that I'd do what I wanted to do without worrying about him. So when MIL asked if I was coming, I said yes. It'll be awkward because it's the first time I've seen BIL's family since BD 12 months ago. But hey ho, I have to move on and live my life without second-guessing H's position.
