Swimming with Turtles pt 2

[Brit45]

I agree! The big thing with female empowerment (that I've learned) is that just because you may see yourself and S act in one way...that doesn't mean they see as independent, empowered etc. I don't think men see it that way at all.

oh Zig I'd love to meet you too! Who knows what the future holds! LOL beginners mind and all!

So I've never put this on the board but for a few mornings before he moved out I would get into bed with him and cuddle in the mornings before we both got up and got ready. He was still dating her and telling me we couldn't get back together right now (but maybe in the future) and I was distraught and a mess. I don't like knowing that I gave him comfort and warmth and took from him comfort and warmth when at the same time I was hurting so bad from actions he was continuing to do. It's a dangerous game!!!

About a month after he moved out he came over and was flirting heavily even commented if we were younger we'd already be in bed, but we were being adults. And he even said he'd been thinking about our last night quite a bit. I don't know if looking back I don't know...but I was just like you can't talk this way when your still carrying on a R with her.

and that's what it comes down to for me.

[NLW]

suddenly he turned to me with the most raw look i had ever seen form him - he had never shown me his wanting me that openly and we had the most amazing sex.
also the last time when he was drunk - he actually turned away from me and i said - you feel like you're betraying her? and he said yes, and we lay there quietly and i said there's no way we need to do this. then he turned to me and started furiously.
later over the next few weeks - occasionally it would be too much for him and he would come and kiss me passionately and tell me how sorry he was and then all of that stopped.

Zig, your descriptions of what happened with your H are pretty much identical to what I experienced in the weeks/months after BD.

My H would say "I'm so confused" a lot at the time too.

The extent to which the MLC is scripted constantly amazes me. Also gives me hope that my H will work through the phases and come out the other end.

These days he seems to have 'made his choice' as it were and I think he definitely feels that doing ANYTHING with me (let alone having sex) would be a betrayal (both to her and, I believe, to me).

I've also pondered asking the 'no strings, but PLEASE help me out ' question.

I sort of tried it once many months ago and he refused. In the end I was bargaining him down and asked if he would even kiss me 'one last time' or give me a hug (I was in a really bad state one day and lost it all completely). He was willing only to put his arm around me.

I could tell that he saw it as a further betrayal of both me and the OW and that it made him very uncomfortable.

I think that the only way it could happen would be by not talking about it, but somehow just finding yourself in the moment and seeing how things developed.
These days however, I'm no longer at the point where I would want to have this sort of interaction with him - I think.

Unless it was a completely utilitarian one for my own purposes, and I'm not sure I'd be able to look at it like that yet/ever.

And Busto tells me that by doing this sort of thing I am implicitly disrespecting H - he's told me it's over; time to show I'm listening.

But then again... it can still be over and we can still have sex - right?
Just because we need it, right?

But why do we need it with H? Because it's convenient? Or because we want to get him back? And like your IC said, plenty of people say that it works to keep the connection in a M that's broken down. Oh boy....going round in circles now.

Anyway, thanks so much for your openness and honesty in putting this sort of stuff out there for discussion. Sometimes I'm so ashamed of myself for feeling like I do about my H - that I still want him after all he's doing - that I'm too embarrassed to talk about it.

[zig]

I don't like knowing that I gave him comfort and warmth and took from him comfort and warmth when at the same time I was hurting so bad from actions he was continuing to do. It's a dangerous game!!!


ah brit - that's what hurts so much doesn't it? it feels as if we betrayed ourselves deep down, that we would give so much of ourselves even while we were being so betrayed and disrespected

but I was just like you can't talk this way when your still carrying on a R with
her

you are one strong lady - i didn't have the self esteem and self confidence to say that to him directly. the last time though - at a halloween party, when i completely didn't expect it, at my sweet friends house - he followed me into the bathroom (it didn't have a lock and started kissing me passionately - when i realized that we were one step from having sex right there i stopped it and pulled back. he left and then came back in again, and i think we talked a bit and hugged really deeply and he said that he was so sorry that he was hurting me. i replied it's okay i understand.that was the last time

one of the things i did really wrong in the R was that i rejected him - a lot. and that really hurt him. and that day , i did it again, and i think he saw it as more of the same. now of course it doesn't matter....

on the other hand - as i wrote the description of what happened up above, i realize how far i've come and how much more i love and respect myself. i think if it happened today that he said that, i would look at him calmly and say yes you have really hurt and betrayed me, i never expected that of you.

[zig]

thanks soooo much for telling me that even this is part of the script. i am still finding my way out of the muddles of how the sexual abuse REALLY affected me and what happens across the board.

i thought that my actions were because i didn't care enough about myself (a common occurrence in adults who have been sexually abused as kids)

to feel any negative emotions in the sex arena, is definitely a difficult area to wade through for me, but i am happy to say that i can see a huge difference in how i view what's ok for me and acceptable NOW as opposed to before

These days he seems to have 'made his choice' as it were and I think he definitely feels that doing ANYTHING with me (let alone having sex) would be a betrayal (both to her and, I believe, to me).

another relief to hear that my h is not the only one - this has agonized me so much, and i've seen it as proof that there's no hope. but that's not true - if it's something that's part of the script?


I think that the only way it could happen would be by not talking about it, but somehow just finding yourself in the moment and seeing how things developed.
These days however, I'm no longer at the point where I would want to have this sort of interaction with him - I think.

that's so not happening - he told me that he couldn't bear to be around me because the sexual attraction was so strong that he was in agony. and so his hard withdrawal since then (around november) is i think because of that. and it was - we'd be over at the in-laws and mil would say to me later that it was downright uncomfortable for them because the sexual vibes were so strong. interestingly - they were stronger than they had been ever - we actually admitted to each other that we fell in love with each other again after the bomb drop, during those weeks of talking. but he also said that he was still going to be with ow - I can't give her up right now)

what you suggested as the only way that it could happen - i don't think so for me at this point, and i've often thought about what i would do if out of the blue something like this came up - would i go with it? would i say h, i cannot ml with you while you are in another relationship - i respect myself too much for that. would that be losing a chance to make a real connection? or would that be me just dissing myself

hard questions - would love to hear from others, especially the vets about their thoughts on it

right now today, i'm finding myself thinking - no, i don't want to have this kind of interaction with him either, just like you. he's not looking too attractive right now (and i don't mean just physically) and i now know so much more clearly what i want in a relationship that i can't see myself compromising for just a little of something, when i could have so much more.

Anyway, thanks so much for your openness and honesty in putting this sort of stuff out there for discussion. Sometimes I'm so ashamed of myself for feeling like I do about my H - that I still want him after all he's doing - that I'm too embarrassed to talk about it.

oh sweet girl - do not be embarrassed to talk about it and work through your feelings and not be ashamed. why shouldn't we want our spouses - we promised to love and stay with them until we died - no matter what. it's the little devils inside of us that bring it up in terms of shame - as if we were the ones who did wrong

i know that feeling too - i don't feel shame as much as anger and frustration with myself that how could i want this person who has rejected me so deeply. maybe i'm not ready to face the shame BEHIND those emotions - i'm sure i'll find out soon enough - at the rate i'm going

maybe we should all talk about this - and hear each others pain - this is one of the biggest hugest things we have to deal with for us LBS's whose WAS"s are involved with OP's. there is soooo much pain in that.

i am now finding out that just letting myself feel the REAL emotion and fully acknowledging it leads to a world of new peace i've never felt before - and only in letting it come out, do i seem to be able to lessen the pain about it.

is this a place we could allow ourselves to release some of that pain? among people who really know how it truly feels? no judgements, no criticisms, just with honesty and acceptance. the reason i ask is that both yours and brit responses to me were the type that just made me feel understood and helped so much to feel better about what happened. the phrase kindred sprits comes to mind - and if anything, that is what we all are here.

((((NLW)))))

thank you
zig

[zig]

i just read nci's and bustorama's recommendations to NCL on her thread - about establishing boundaries and that until i really do nothing will change in the sitch

so does this apply to WAS's in mlc/

reading on the mlc threads - the advice is soooo different - to be patient and wait until they come out of replay.

i need to get advice on the issue with s's b'day and my participation in it.

i am very confused about what to do.

i have to take care of a few things, but will try to put my thoughts down later tonight

zig

[~ kd ~]

zig, yes... I do like cainer and read him daily... his posts are just... fun...

Now, on the sex thing... let's just say... it's complicated...

So first of, the advice here is generally... when there's a PA... just say, "NO!"

When there appears to be no PA, then... well...

It certainly is DB, in the right context.

Understand that many people who find themselves to this board are looking at LRT as their only DB option. LRT includes no pursuit.

But... DB ALSO says, "do what works". And if it's a possible 180 and it works, then yes... by all means...

and also, nothing about DB is completely set in stone. They are pretty clear, but they are also guidelines which each one of us should modify, according to the context of our sitch, at any given time.

For example, dbmod recently went through and bumped posts of newbies. In one, dbmod indicated the member should be in LRT... but, should be looking carefully for baby steps AND move towards the spouse as they occur, as the member's past behaviour was detached from their spouse... so a 180 would be pursue, but LRT says no pursuit... but in context, pursuit is DB acceptable because as soon as the dynamic changes...

well... LRT is LAST RESORT... but it really is meant to be as temporary as possible.

hope that made sense...

[~ kd ~]

i just read nci's and bustorama's recommendations to NCL on her thread - about establishing boundaries and that until i really do nothing will change in the sitch

so does this apply to WAS's in mlc/

reading on the mlc threads - the advice is soooo different - to be patient and wait until they come out of replay.

i need to get advice on the issue with s's b'day and my participation in it.

i am very confused about what to do.

i have to take care of a few things, but will try to put my thoughts down later tonight

zig

To quickly respond to this as well...

Remember... each sitch is unique... IF you find your sitch similar to NCL's, then there is the possibility that the advice to you would be about the same... but if there's a difference between her H's and your H's behaviours... or her behaviour and your behaviour... well, then the advice might be different...

BTW, boundaries are FOR YOU!

Like all things DB... it's not about them, it's about us... We set boundaries of what we will or will not accept. We don't control them, we simply respond based on our boundaries that serve us.

For example, my boundary was that I want no communication with my W. The best I can hope for is minimal contact because there may be very important kid stuff. It has taken consistent behaviour from me for over six months for that boundary to be solid and respected by my W.

The boundary... was for me... because I just can't deal with her drama. Maybe I could learn to... but... that's not something that I want in my life (drama) so it's not something that I will allow in my life.

Regarding advice for those whose spouse is MLC... yes, patience... but really what we're hoping to establish with the LBS is to get off the roller coaster, detach, and GAL... so that we create the least resistance for the MLCer to work through their necessary path... disruptions can cause MLC to delay... if nothing else, we do not need to be the cause of that delay...

And then there's those who think the MLCer is coming out of it and jump into the M again only to find the MLCer runs away because they were just doing a "touch and go". Back on the roller coaster...

So... that being said...

In your sitch, H's PA = No joy stick from H

In regards to your s's b-day... that's about your s... you are allowed to change your mind, but you should be sure to let your s know (once this b-day is over) that the NEXT b-day could very well look different. You don't have to describe it as smaller... just different...

Do the b-day as your s hopes this year... you've already established to him that it will be so...

[zig]

oh shite KD - sometimes your posts confuse me even MORE than i was already confused.

my head is starting to swirl a bit here after the discussions of today - and all this other stuff is starting to come up as if i have to decide right now about everything and that's when i get in a really bad place.

i have to learn to just drop it all

frankly after reading your response - i was leaning towards - this is just not f'ing worth it. i so need a break after 10+ months of trying to figure out all day long what is the correct DB approach. what to say what to do, what not to say etc. the best 180 here i could do for myself is just stop trying so hard - stop trying at all. what am i even trying for here - i'm losing sight of it, i think

i don't care any more what he wants and whether what i do is affecting him or how it's affecting him. it's about time i started thinking about myself

on the other hand: am i done here or just temporarily exhausted from my own emotional out pourings that are so heavy to get through


frankly the thought of offering that to h, makes me sort of sick to my stomach - go figure - i've spent 10 months working hard to "save my marriage" and today when the option comes up sort of, it makes me sick to my stomach

or am i sick to my stomach at the thought of him saying no?

how's this for my horoscope read this 3 days ago for this week and couldn't help thinking about it after the discussion with IC and the shock had abated

This coming Monday creates one more day of pressure at your home or at work. By now you have had it and you finally take matters into your own hands and do something firm about the situation. This not only relieves the pressure but it also seems to set you on the road on which your are supposed to go. If you do not do something you will somehow be forced to it by the situation. Read Gemini as it applies.


This is a week that a surprise move is made either by yourself or by someone else. Either way the move is a very unexpected and quite beneficial to you. Toward the weekend you believe you are making a very intelligent decision but you must be sure you are not deceiving yourself through your emotions. If a rational judgment is to be made, you must keep your emotions entirely out of it. Read Sagittarius as it applies.

just thought i'd take the time to add that in for a good belly laugh. note how it points out clearly that i have to leave my emotions out of it entirely

the universe is f'ing with me today - i HAVE TO CHILL!!!

I FRANKLY DON'T THINK I HAVE THE GUTS TO ACTUALLY DO THIS - unless i got some teeny tiny little itsy bitsy sign!!


either way - thanks for your thoughts on this - i think i have to read through your post after my minds a little more at ease. - in the morning



oh and btw,

Now, on the sex thing... let's just say... it's complicated..

is this just a totally male answer? soooo frustrating!!! can't we have some real concrete thoughts on it -from both the men and women here? go on , give it a try

thanks again KD

you are one sweet support for me

zig

[zig]

Regarding advice for those whose spouse is MLC... yes, patience... but really what we're hoping to establish with the LBS is to get off the roller coaster, detach, and GAL... so that we create the least resistance for the MLCer to work through their necessary path... disruptions can cause MLC to delay... if nothing else, we do not need to be the cause of that delay...
i'm actually off the roller coaster now - in terms of h, directly - find myself not reacting much to how he is from day to day as i did before, an when i start going down the road of "oh, i wonder if that was the right thing to do n what he might get from it" i stop immediately and shrug and say - i guess i don't really care right now.


And then there's those who think the MLCer is coming out of it and jump into the M again only to find the MLCer runs away because they were just doing a "touch and go". Back on the roller coaster...

no fear of that for me any longer - i am Sooo cautious now, i surprise myself!!

In your sitch, H's PA = No joy stick from H

what can i say, KD? brilliantly put! confirmed! Hallelujah!

as for s's b'day - yes i agree. said s needs to be put to bed right now, as he's pushing it on the late nights. but i will come back later and explain my "other" struggling feelings about it

thanks for giving me so much time - i know you're trying to do other things, so i am extra grateful for the attention. much appreciated.

zig

btw - i guess i should also mention that i am sooo happy to get some concrete yeses and no's here

[labug]

You're overanalyzing everything, there are very few absolutes in life. Become the woman you want to be, within a framework of how you want to treat others and how you allow others to treat you.feel confident in YOUR choices and let the chips fall where they may.

Having sex with your H is probably not going to bring him back nor turn him completely away. But it might be fun.

I'm not to the "woman I want to be yet" but I'm getting there.

(((zig)))

Sorry, just saw your statement about concrete yesses and nos.