I have been reading some of AmyC's posts and have found some of them quite good. I joined the forum after she stopped posting so I guess I never had the pleasure to MEET her. I know some of the older posters speak very highly of her.
For the Newbies she did have her own MLC and she speaks of it in some of these POSTS.
Unfortunately one of the threads that really described it has been purged from the archives.
However I think this may help some people and I will post it in this and two more posts.
Discussion is then welcomed.
Amy C 6/16/06
As an exWAS, I have to say, I think I EXPECTED that my husband knew the things that pissed me off...so I never really even tried to talk about it. I guess I was under that stupid impression that if he loved me, he'd change (God, was I THAT ignorant!? UGH!) So it really did just snowball and instead of trying to talk about it reasonably like an adult, I got derailed by MLC and then couldn't even manage to form a coherent friggin sentence that would begin to explain the garbage in my head. BUT, while IN the MLC, I told my husband that he'd had plenty of time to turn things around. It's just too bad he didn't have a crystal ball.
So don't sweat it Lissett. You either, Hope. Until I started reading this thread, I had really forgotten all about telling my husband that nonsense. Just goes to prove that an MLCer, for the most part, is not in his or her right mind.
Now I just wonder what else I have forgotten....
Amy
6/22/06 There are a few things you have yet to grasp about MLC.
1) We (the MLCer) will comb through every aspect of the past to get a handful of "reasons" we will tell YOU that it is over and should have been back then.
2) Whatever the MLCer says, he or she really means it WHEN THEY ARE SAYING IT.
3) Neither of the above will apply on the other side of the tunnel. Half of it won't even be remembered at all.
But as long as your husband is in MLC (and I really believe he is) he's not reliable, his memory is not reliable, his entire view of the future is not reliable. Nothing he says, feels or does while in MLC will be the same once he is out. The only thing that will be the same are the bruises and scars YOU carry because of all he has done.
There's a wall going up around your heart now. It's going to get higher. That is not necessarily a bad thing under these circumstances. The layers will peel away when the time comes to rebuild, if YOU choose to do so.
The only question now is what will he do when he comes out of the tunnel and deals with life on life's terms?
Will he continue on puffed up by foolish pride and afraid to let anyone see his real feelings over the horror he has caused?
Or will he turn around, learn, grow and try to make up for it all?
Only time will tell.
As you know, you can't stop living your life.
But you also don't have to rewrite your memories of the past to agree with his temporarily warped perception of things.
8/24/06
8/27/06
Last edited by Cadet; 11/30/1802:05 PM. Reason: remove links that have been purged
I think something else that should be pointed out is an MLCer MIGHT also pretty much stop talking to whomever they were closest to. They may get a whole new circle of friends. Or they might push everyone away.
I stopped talking to my sister, who has always been my best friend. But by the time that happened, I'd pushed my husband so far away he couldn't have known that was happening. We lived apart and I'd been out of touch with him for a long time except regarding the house or kids. There was ZERO communication with him unless I HAD to and I would go to great lengths to avoid that. I didn't like the man. I know now that what I really didn't like were the things he made me see about myself. We could have none of THAT! I should also note that when I stopped talking to my sister was when things were beginning to change INSIDE of me. I was getting the first inkling that my story (my rewriting of the marital history) wasn't going to hold water much longer. The cracks were starting to appear. That's when I stopped talking to EVERYBODY.
In my case, through the initial period of deep MLC which manifested outwardly between March '02 & March '04, I'd spun such brilliant BS that everyone thought I was right to want a separation/divorce. In March '04, my husband left for the second time. I'd gotten rid of om before that but was still trying to live it up. I was crashing hard and fairly regularly. I still managed for another year to outrun reality though it did creep in occasionally. My husband stopped fighting for me when he left the second time. That was the biggest jolt. It was good to have that pressure off for awhile though. By summer 2005, I was coming apart at the seams. Completely. I'd exhausted myself with the things of the world that had enticed me, I was looking at families and missing my own. For the first time, I started to see that there had been good times. I had REALLY forgotten them. There are still times as recently as a week ago that I'll remember something and mention it to my husband and he'll look at me as if to say "did you JUST remember/realize that?" and if I were to answer, I'd say yes. MLC stole a big chunk of the good things about my marriage. It seems I get them back a little at a time. But I FORGOT. I did not see us as my husband saw us. So you (husbands of MLC wives) really are holding something precious that no one else has; you're holding the real truth about your lives together. You're the only one that's going to understand her when she comes back. You're all that's going to be familiar and if you're not there...
Anyway after a while, I started seeing how I had contributed to the bad times. By October 2005 I was completely broken and flat on my face in repentance. Thinking of it still makes me cry.
I was a mean MLCer. I convinced myself and everyone around me that my husband was the biggest SOB that ever walked. I BELIEVED it. I twisted every argument we'd ever had but ESPECIALLY as he fought me THEN. I had all my family in support of my efforts. Eventually, and it took a long time, I convinced my husband we were really through.
He stood for over 2 years, though. Alone. Without a message board or a clue about MLC. He just believed in me and in us.
It seemed when in order to save his own sanity he had to let go I started waking up.
You might think that's a shame.
But the rest of my story is still being written.
I don't know why I wrote all that. There are some new people here I guess. Trying to determine if there's hope. Thinking there is hope if it's MLC. To you I'll say this: If you don't humble yourself at this time, if you let pride make you bitter and vengeful, she will never feel able to ask your forgiveness. And THAT ALONE IS PARAMOUNT to her coming out of MLC a better and stronger person. You see, the hardest thing for her will be forgiving herself and she can never do that unless she can come back and talk with you. Love her or not, leave her or not, you've got to make yourself a person (because you are THE person) she can come to and apologize. This is when you're going to have your feet held to fire and you'll find out if your love is really unconditional.
While she's lost, you have work of your own to do.
So you went through this yourself? Yes. What I'm wondering, is how cognitive is an MLCer to what they are experiencing? Not much. It is mass confusion, fueled by anger that runs so deep it never seems to be far away. The term "hairpin trigger" comes to mind... MLCers can be vicious on a good day. Anger is the root, confusion is what we will never in hell admit to, exhaustion is what eventually derails us and we find ourselves looking back at the destruction caused by our own hand. It is almost impossible for me to comprehend that they don't see any of it, none at all? See what exactly? We know we're b*tches from hell but what we DON'T fully comprehend is WHY. It takes a long time for that to begin to come clear. MLC is rooted in unresolved issues, aging and thinking about possible things we might have missed out on, thoughts of 'what I might be able to do if I left this bullsh*t behind...after all, I'm only getting older'... it is rooted in the mundane things we do everyday and no one notices anymore. We might have woken up and realized we have no identity other than "wife and mother" and everything inside us starts screaming PAY ATTENTION TO ME. You most likely don't see much of that internal stuff until it overflows in the form of anger that has you looking at us like our heads just spun around on our shoulders because you asked if, while we're out, we can pick you up something at the store (or something equally stupid). So there it is. The anger and confusion that has festered is now fullblown MLC and you're about to start sleeping with one eye open for however long you stay under the same roof.
When my wife spews her rage, vitriol and makes horrible comments to me (I wish you were dead. Then my problems would be over) she just HAS to know what she is saying is so wrong, you just don't say that to anyone. Agreed. That is excessively hateful. But I will admit to you that although I never said it, God forgive me, I THOUGHT things like that when I was in MLC. And I KNOW that even having not said the words outloud, my EVERY action conveyed that thought to my husband regularly.
Also, if MLC really started long before I saw the signs, is there any way to determine that? I know what you're doing. You want to construct a timeline to give yourself some reasonable idea as to how far she is into this thing. PLEASE do yourself a favor, SCREW THE TIMELINE IDEA. I know that two years ago, I got the first "I need some space to sort this out" line, and that was six months after he mother passed away. Then, a month or two later she had her fling, big shopping sprees, her own illnesses (major migraines, seizures, hospitalized three times). It was a rocky road for us since then until the bomb on Christmas Eve '06. Did her MLC timeline begin two years ago?
My wife was all those things you describe; appeared happy (as much as she could be), great mother, pretty good wife, co-existing and working towards common goals. Is the death of her mother (a wound not yet healed) the "something" that happened? It could definitely be the trigger that got her looking at her life and realizing her dissatisfaction, which by the way, has ALWAYS been a part of her so don't let yourself think it's your fault. Did our not-always-so-great relationship between then and "I need some space" act as a trigger, the "thing in her mind"? Again, mom's death probably kicked off the mental aspect. Until the day she had that talk with you though, it was an internal thing only, I suspect. But in that time, her mind worked her over. By the time she voiced those things to you, she was in MLC, if that is indeed the conclusion you have rightfully come to.
And she doesn't think she is happy, she KNOWS. So did I. At least that is what she is telling me and the kids (and anyone else that will listen). She tells me she hates me (that hurts bad) and does believe our marriage has held her back not only from happiness, but of finding her "soul mate" (oh puke).
And nothing, nothing at all can reach her? Amy, did you have family and friends (not H) pulling you aside for any reality checks? I had every single person absolutely convinced that I knew what I was doing. I had so deluded myself, that everyone else fell right into line supporting me. Did they see what was going on, and now in retrospect, accuratley lay it out in front of you as to what you were doing and how you were acting? No one had a clue. Only since coming out of MLC and WALKING BACK have I told the story in it's entirety to my family. My mother, grandmother, aunt, sister...they ALL know what MLC is now. But they never knew I was so screwed up.
Did they tell you that you have your head up your a** and you're the only one that can't see how silly this is? And if so, it meant nothing to you? I can tell you beyond the shadow of a doubt that there was NOTHING ANYONE could have said to me that would have moved me. As an example, right smack dab in the middle of my MLC, while practicing adultery, I sat my self-righteous butt in church and my Pastor pointed his finger straight at me one day during an altar call and he said to me "how long are you going to sit there?" He had been talking about letting the enemy influence us and destroy our families from within. At the time this happened, not one soul knew I was having an affair. Not one soul. I got called out, IN CHURCH, by a man that I had so much respect for, KNEW God had sent into my life the year before, and yet when he stood there that day, I didn't move a muscle. That is very telling of the grip the enemy had on me and I didn't even realize it. It is interesting to me that I basically lost my mind within a year of darkening the doorway of a church for the first time ever in my whole life. I got involved there, having felt "led" to that teacher for some reason.... 6 years later I know why. It's because every tool he gave me during that first year, I have had to use mightily in order to be able to stand for my marriage.
What happened the day you decided to "work it out on your own"? Oh sweetheart, I didn't "decide" to work it out on my own. Was it gradual, or just a sudden slap in the face, an epiphany? It was gradual and yet very dramatic. I had begun to work at a law firm where one of the attorneys represented children often involved in nasty custody battles and the other attorney practiced mostly bankruptcy law. Between the kids, which tore me apart, and one particular couple that was filing for bankruptcy and yet exhibited SUCH AMAZING DEVOTION to one another, my eyes began to open to the state of my own family. Another HUGE thing that occured was I ended up one day on the scene of a motorcycle accident in which the man laid in the ditch and died with me sitting there beside him. There were other very significant things that occured over a period of months but when I fully awoke, it put me literally on my face in devastation. I could not endure the pain of the realization of what I had done, the role I had played in the destruction of my family. I could not hardly breathe having the knowledge of what I'd done to a man that had loved me, not perfectly, but so utterly completely. Coming OUT of MLC would have surely been the death of me had it not been for the grace of God. The guilt, shame and horror were SOOOOO oppressive...
If you have a link to any of this (I can't find it) can you please copy it here so I can read up? Surely I have at least 25 threads or so by now. I started the first one in October 2005. I will see what I can find. What did your husband do during all this? Bless his heart, for 2 years he stood and fought like hell to save us. It was not until he let go, that I started my painfully slow journey back. Interestingly, I signed separation papers last October and moved out of our home in December. Since then, we have become closer than ever and had several very significant breakthroughs. The latest one was just tonight.
Lots of questions from me here, but the more I read about all this, the more it scares me and braces me for the hellish pain I may have to endure. Don't be afraid. Find out rightquick what you believe in and why you choose to stand. You're going to have to remind yourself of that alot in the months to come.
God bless."
Edited by Cadet for carriage returns and bold and readability 6/9/2012 This was originally posted on 6/3/2007
Last edited by Cadet; 11/30/1802:44 PM. Reason: remove links that have been purged
Man what a wild ride. Cadet great that u posted this. It gives me an idea of what W is going through. I see the fog on her face everyday. When we went to court last week I heard the confusion in her answers as if she had not thought them through. Pretty sad that she is driving the divorce car.
M 53 D 20 Separated 6/22/11 moved out 10/24 Together 26 yrs Married 16 W Filed for D 7/21/11 Served 9/6/11 D final 8/28/12
“Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be.”
Alex, the only advice I can give you is what others gave me when I started on this board. GAL, work on yourself, be still, give the W lots of space and buy yourself as much time as possible. She with either come back, or she won't, you cannot make her, beg her, guilt her, or buy her. She must choose. It does seem to me that given enough time, most MLC'ers make thier way back to their spouses. The only question is, are you willing to wait and take them back when they exit the roller coaster? Can you last the amount of time this will take? This is a rough brutal trip with a lot of heartache involved. Ask yourself those questions before you start and the very best of luck to you!! If I can help, let me know!!!
Bravehart posted this^^^^^^ to someone else. That is the question that I must find an answer to.
M 53 D 20 Separated 6/22/11 moved out 10/24 Together 26 yrs Married 16 W Filed for D 7/21/11 Served 9/6/11 D final 8/28/12
“Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be.”
AmyC was extremely helpful to the posters here and I often wonder what happen to her.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
If Mach would prefer not to post the info here, would you be kind enough to drop me a note and let me know if she's okay. I admired her strength and ability to come here and face her demons, but also to help others.
Thanks!
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
Here is another post to ButterFlyMom who reconciled with her MLC'er MyfavoriteWierdo.
There is a link to MFW's thread who also posted on DB for those who are interested contained in the below link.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...196#Post1382196 BFM ~ It really upsets me to read that your husband was treated badly here by some people. Had I seen it at the time... well, I think we know what would have happened ;\) and it wouldn't have been pretty.
Your husband has done THE HARDEST THING IN THE WORLD THERE IS TO DO AFTER MLC - turn around and try to return home - and you can tell him that I said, from experience, that he has a hell of a lot to be proud of himself for because it takes a Divine conviction the likes of which UTTERLY SLAYS the prideful MLC spirit (and the newly awake MLCer has to practically BEG God for), and then it takes balls the size of Texas to look at our LBSs and admit we were wrong - all wrong- and to ask your forgiveness when it is all we can do to stand upright in the face of the realization of what we have done. If anyone, and I mean on any website, bashes someone that has survived MLC to return to their family - or even try to - they KNOW NOTHING - I REPEAT - THEY HAVE LEARNED NOTHING - while they've been claiming to stand for an MLCer. They are hypocrites. Stupid (which is different than ignorant as they have been exposed to the information on MLC) hypocrites!
Jack, I'm very happy to hear that she's doing great. If you should be in contact w/her, please send her my regards and well wishes.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
I will have to go and read more of Amy's posts.....reading this was like she was writing about me. I have been wondering if my H is in MLC. (He wants out and I am trying to DB)....but now I'm starting to think I was in MLC a few years ago and this January marked my coming out of it. I have told H that I actually feel physiologically DIFFERENT (and better) than I have for a long time. Of course he thinks this is BS, but I cant explain it any other way. Could it be that what I thought was depression (and strict denial of such) was actually MLC?? I too have said horrible things and H doesn't understand how someone can even think those things, much less say them. But they were there in my mind and out of my mouth. And like Amy there were other horrible things I didn't say ( I never told him I hated him) they were definitely in my mind and yes, my actions spoke volumes to my H. So much so that he convinced himself that i wanted a D, which has never been true (though it was an occasional fantasy during that time i refer to as "when i had the crazies"). Since my "awakening" in Jan I can no longer imagine going back to the way I was.
M:39 H:39 S/15, S/11 (both adopted in 2004, my step-nephews, now our kids) M10, T13 Multiple bombs. Latest one 5/4/12, our 10th anniversary. Still living together and sharing a bed up until 7/18/12.
jen, The major symptom of mlc is depression. So, yes, you experienced depression a few years ago. MLC is not just about doing and saying odd things, but it's about the past, which is what depression is all about.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
So much of that resonated as per my W. I mean everything for the first two years of Amy's time frame for her MLC.
IF my W is MLC, like what appears Amy was, she'd be a vanisher if it wasn't for the kids. I'd be at that two year mark where Amy indicates her H finally gave up (I've appeared to, in my mind). And she indicated that she'd felt that was a good thing at first, and began a new cycle of replay (I've found out that my W is planning some good ol' partying this summer).
How she had a new circle of friends; yup to my W. Yes, my W maintains (some) contact with old friends, while her current group of friends has mainly consisted of people she never knew or would not have partied (spent time) with (some much younger).
Eventually Amy indicated she'd stopped talking to "everyone". My W now appears to have only a few people she really associates with on a regular basis. For the most part, I think it's just companionship so she isn't ever "alone".
Amy indicates she'd convinced "everyone" close to her (family, etc) that she was right to want to be S / D from her H. Certainly appears to be the case with my W.
And then... she began to re-connect with old friends... I just found out that my W has just reconnected with an old, good friend from her past. Someone I am aware that she has not spent much time with over the past three or so years (confirmed by D14; who would know). She was visiting with that friend, today.
None of this matters, really. I just find it has been a really interesting read. Based on Amy's description of her MLC, the primary portion of her distancing from her "old life" / M extended over a period of at least 3.5 years. Of that, at least 1.5 consisted of her truly believing that her H had given up and let go / moved on.
Even without the OM, whom she suggests she'd got rid of prior to her H giving up, she still needed another 1.5+ years to get everything else out of her system (burning herself out / emotionally getting to rock bottom) before she started looking inwards.
I'd submit that an "important" transition might take a couple years for sure. Possibly a little more.
I think Amy's story really resonates with the understanding that the crises extends much beyond a transition time frame. Most likely the significant reason for that is due to the reality that it is a crises, and many people initially fight and resist the crises, either through denial or brute will.
I know there are members here who might either be MLC deniers, or perhaps doubt the extent or depth of what a person who is experiencing this "type" of life crises is really dealing with.
I think that maybe a person can look at Amy's words and still have suspicion that those words are just excuses and reasons for poor behaviour.
I am convinced there is something much deeper going on and I also suspect that many who go through MLC are no where near as open or honest about their MLC experience... In denial DURING the MLC... and in denial OF the MLC, POST MLC...
Thank you Amy! When I looked at your comments about NC, I called my SIL in and said there is H! Finally, someone who kind of resembles him. I could kiss you!!!
Do you think if you H had pushed for a D it would have been better or worse, than just leaving you alone?
Whenever he pushed at all he had a hellcat on his hands. Lay low. You'll have less scars.
This too has been so much my experience. When I "pushed" to work on the M, I had monster. When I "pushed" to D, I had monster.
Both the confusion AND the reaction to (perceived or real) pressure can produce monster.
Were there any childhood issues you can think of that you resolved in your mind during your MLC that helped bring you out of it? I have read that MLC is almost always related to unresolved childhood issues.
Yes, stillhoping.
That I was "good enough".
Also this one from the same thread
Originally Posted By: AmyC
Originally Posted By: missmyfriend
What good does it know why our spouses may be in MLC? I think understanding diffuses anger and compassion can set in. I am not saying acceptance of the actions but compassion and forgiveness.
I agree. But you can never tell a MLCer that you might have a handle on the underlying cause. Not until a time comes that they come to you and express an awareness of their own. Even then, I'd recommend treading lightly.
Originally Posted By: AmyC
Any indication that you are "analyzing" her is likely to be met with indignation and maybe even wrath. She will see you as condescending and unable to admit that you could be a part of the problem. She will think you are trying to blame everyone but yourself for the state of your marriage. Your words to the contrary won't matter. She will think you are grasping at straws and in denial. I wouldn't bring it up if I were you. Unless you want to get mauled. Of course, she might be a gentle MLCer. I was abdolutely vicious. The exact opposite of what my husband had known me to be previously. One other thing though - when I was at my absolute worst as far as how I treated him, I cried myself to sleep every night because I didn't understand what the hell was wrong with me. But every morning, I woke up pissed off and wanting to get away all over again.
But I think I was depressed before he started. I was in fact.
Had our second child and in went into a deep depression.
I actually thought I didn't want to be married anymore.
But I really did. I was just so unhappy. Anyway, I remember that summer so well. We went as a family to the UK. Has a great time.
When we got back home, I thought we were just plodding a long. We weren't. He was reconnecting with an old GF ( fizzled out ) and strengthening a relationship with a common friend of ours ( female) who was also married. ( the current OW)
4 months after the great UK trip he told me That OW is only one for him and vice versa. I handled it very poorly. I was shocked to say the least. He quickly apologised, said he was just lashing out in anger and hurt.
But I was numb with fear.
One month later he moved out of the bedroom. He wouldn't talk with me about what was going on. He became secretive. Stopped wanting to do things with me or be treated as a couple. He 'broke up with me'. Went out with a different set of friends. Was cold, distant...MEAN. Out till all hours of the night, etc etc
4 months after that he said he wanted to move out...'needed space'. That our dreams are no longer. I am 'not the one'. In the background OW is on the prowl. OW leaves her husband and gets her own place.
Three months later his father passed away. H moved out into OW house.
Swears to me they are just friends. In my heart I know better but don't want to anger him. He has become a monster at that point between the dirty looks, the accusations, the self righteousness...etc
Eventually he gets his own place. Rum ors still continue about him and OW which he denies.
He blames me for spreading rum ors, being the cause of his unhappiness.
I was so devastated I couldn't move.
He tells our friends and other people how he is so finished with me. That I am a nag, I annoy him, i have a temper. That he is a victim of this all.
I hear all of this from other people. But he doesn't deny it when I ask him.
5 months later he seems to be softer. More engaged. We have our ten month anniversary and we acknowledge it with champagne. I couldn't believe it. Really thought we were starting to move forward.
He doesn't move back but he started asking me to make new things for dinner - like a fun challenge it was nice. We took family portraits for the first time.
One month later he is cold and disengaged again. Mean again. Apparently He had broken up with OW and was reengaging with her throughout the time I thought things were becoming positive.
In the meantime he swears that there is no OW to me, friends and family.
I find text messages to confirm all. It's all a lie. He says its an EA. Apologises to me because he has to ( no real remorse). And continues to be cold, refusing to talk and stubborn. Insists that he wants a D and even implied that the EA was my fault for not granting a D.
Anyway, I ask if we can seal the walls of our M from outside influences in order to see what's going on. He doesn't say yes or no. Says he will do his 'best'. In the meantime he is still in contact with OW because she is a 'friend' and still sees her.
H cold, distant, exclusionary, doesn't include me. Sees the kids and leaves. Fast forward a few more months, OW rumors again. He is back in EA. She becomes his 'best friend'
Today- EA is now PA.
This is a timeframe of almost two years since he moved out.
Throughout this he takes off wedding ring ( a week after he moved out), bought a boat, travels ( without me) as if we have money like the Trumps, tells me he is unhappy with me. That I will never change. That I was annoying. We have different priorities. When I pushed him to understand what he means with these vague statements he won't respond. The only thing he says is the thing that really bugged him was the way I reacted when he told me that OW was the only one for him and vice versa. How the he'll was I supposed to react ( I cried, screamed, locked him out--- ok not model behaviour but this lasted a whole 30 minutes).
He told me that actually he has been unhappy since BEFORE D4 was born. That maybe we were never really in love when we got married.
In his eyes he is the victim of me.
I don't know why I am writing this all here. I apologise for the long winded post.
This thread has been very useful in understanding MLC. Thank you Cadet for it.
TPS Me: 44 H: 42 M14 T17 S10 D7 10/10 H moves out after death of his father-same month 21/04/12 H is 'DONE' 04/05/12 OW/PA confirmed (rumors from 2010) July '14 H ends affair May '15 H moves back home
Sorry just to add, myH's mom passed away when he was 14. It has always been traumatic for him
TPS Me: 44 H: 42 M14 T17 S10 D7 10/10 H moves out after death of his father-same month 21/04/12 H is 'DONE' 04/05/12 OW/PA confirmed (rumors from 2010) July '14 H ends affair May '15 H moves back home
Just read something on the web about a fellow (John Folk-Williams) who went through depression and describes the experience, especially in regards to how it affects their thoughts of their spouse:
(re-posted for educational purposes) "The longing to leave one’s intimate partner brings out something that isn’t much discussed in descriptions of depression. It is the active face of the illness. We often focus on the passive symptoms, the inactivity, the isolation, sense of worthlessness, disruption of focused thought, lack of will to do anything. But paradoxically the inner loss and need can drive depressed people to frenzied action to fill the great emptiness in the center of their lives. They may long to replace that inadequate self with an imagined new one that makes up for every loss. "
The reason I post that here is to perhaps point to how depression, as what is believed the underlying condition throughout MLC, may be a factor in the MLCer's drive to fill the void they feel within themselves. Even desperately so, at an aggressive pace. Can anyone say "OP" and "replay"?
KD, Yes, I can say replay and OP...they long to find something that will excite them and make them feel alive. Many of mlcers will state that they feel smothered or will die if they continue to live under the same roof w/us. It's actually the depression talking.
I read a number of good books on depression many years ago. Sting, who is a former poster, also read many good books and we posted them on the thread called "Highly Recommended Reading Materials".
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
And yes, one thing my W would say to me is that she didn't feel the "passion". Like it was something that is externally found.
They need to fill that void and they are desperate and frantic to find it. Along with equally avoiding that which they feel hurts them.
I used to chuckle to myself (underneath my own pain) that my W claimed to not have any passion, yet she sure had passion to go out to that party and drink lots. Like, to the point of numb teeth and throwing up... *sigh*
Also, I realize that the post about depression sounds almost like stating the obvious.
I think if I could be a little more clear, without sounding like somehow I think I've found some holy grail, rather to simply say to those who might wonder WHY the MLCer appears so active or desperate to party, get that new car they are so proud of, get into an intimate R with their OP "soulmate"... is likely the absolutely deep and scary fear of "the void"... like it truly is the death of them if the enter it...
Im really glad that was reposted bed Kaffe in regards to depression. I've recently been on a new site that really describes how depression and destroy relationships. It tackles all the anger, resentment, blame, criticism that comes with it.
I now am understanding without a doubt how the catalyst is major depression for MLC.
My Xh said " there was no passion" between us anymore...yet I could see he no longer had passion for life when he said that. He did tell me that he could never go back to where he was, so depressed and he felt that coming back home would put him right back to where he was before.
Now what I question was if he had just been riding the "high" of getting a new place, furnishing it with new things and enjoying his new man cave, and therefore felt that was it! yes he is so happy to be in his own place, well surely that was theproblem all along, he had to leave! But as I look back, he hadn't been in his new apartment 3 weeks before that high must've started to burst and he started to get extremely lonely. Still anxious, drinking, texting and emailing like mad....honestly I felt sorry for him. He acted as if I had been the one that had completely abandoned him and he didn't know what to do with himself.
Not long after...enter OW.
Gee it's so amazing how each time to look back you can see even more of the forrest for the trees.
Yes Kimmerz, notice how they "find" that passion to pursue what they think they want. What they don't seem to realize (the depression coaxing them) is that the passion is coming from within them. They think the passion is coming after the fact, as a result of this new change, new love, new apartment / job / car.
That chemical released in the brain is doing the same thing for them as the alcohol or other drug is doing. Allowing them to avoid the depression. The booze gives them passion and fills the void, or the OP does...
Depression seeks to avoid by reaching out for external stimuli.
The whole "I can't go back there" is them thinking that a metaphor is reality. "There" being their fear of the void of depression. But they relate it to being literally us, or the M, or our old house, or whatever... "There" changes as they loose their current passion for something / someone and the run to the next.
And the depression blocks their ability to see what was, before depression struck. It's a moment in time which is all the history they can focus on. And all their history begins to be re-woven around that specific moment.
My W also lashed out at me with words suggesting I had abandoned her and my Ds. All the while telling me and other common friends that she was the one who made the decision to exit the M. From what I can gather, her family and really close, unique to her, friends have one story (me being the bad one and leaving her or not being the H she deserved). That's the one I think they really believe. That their depression allows them to have, that they are the victim.
The other story, which they might tell mutual friends and the spouse and similar people (people that they have not enlisted to support them), is one where they left the M as it was not working for them. Being the martyr. Because depression tells them they must atone. For depression tells them they are not good nor worthy.
Gosh.... I can't believe how depression is so complicated.
If they ever truly get out of depression, do they even remember any of this? Will they still look back and think it really was us that caused it all?
Like Amy said she convinced everyone that she was in the right to leave her marriage. I know XH has done his best to put me in that light, and he has two people that support him in that 100 %. The others, well seem to play neutral.
You know, when i was in the throws of deep depression myself, I rationalized the same way XH has done. Oh it was all his fault nothing was right in the marriage and my life, when really he was doing just fine as a husband really. I remember becoming so full of despair, frustration, anger, resentment, not only towards XH but everyone in my life. I got to the point I wanted to divorce him or kill myself. But thanks to the grace of God and Angels, I heard this little teeny voice saying " when did you last take your anti depressants?" Gee...2 months ago. What happens when you don't stay on them? You get out of control like this. "What do you need to do?" Get back on them. "are all these people really at fault like you think they are?" No, it's all me and my perspective right now.
That was many years ago I went through that. I guess now I can related better to what an MLCer is going through now. Gosh I really hope he can find his way out of this. And every other MLCer too.
Both Amy and this John (and I've seen more suggestions of this) have indicated that they DO eventually remember. Not all at once. It takes time for much of the memories to come back or be re-made. Like someone with amnesia recreating memories of their past, by bits and pieces they remember and also related to them as common history by others.
I think it was Amy as re-posted by Cadet in this thread, that suggested (or maybe it was HB in another thread) that the MLCer has two paths once they are out of the tunnel:
+ continue to deny or otherwise never face "the damage" and carry on with their new life
+ own the damage and apologize as necessary and rebuild.
The latter is obviously the more difficult road and take loads of courage and strength by the postMLCer. But some definitely do rebuild. And I also think it takes loads of courage and strength by the LBS (and others), as well.
I think the former could lead to a relapse of MLC down the road.
Yes, I've had a couple bouts of deep depression (thankfully no R were harmed in the making and production of them). And I "remember" the fog... and the rationalizing... and I also remember the bits and pieces that were based more in reality... after the fact... but I know how it works from the inside... I just know that it looks very different from the outside... to an outsider...
People have asked me about my ex. and why I don't wish her bad things. Honestly, this is it right here. I saw this first hand. The "I don't love you anymore" to the re-weaving history around that thought. I saw the depression and almost frantic chase to re-capture...feeling.
I was told that anger is the easiest emotion to be in contact with. I believe it after watching what she went through. It was very depressing to see this once vibrant woman transform like that.
From there, it was a frantic attempt at getting feeling back and the anger and rage...wow. Was like watching a raging storm. Still is sometimes, but I'm far removed from that as much as I can be with kids.
But I really didn't get it until I started slipping into depression after she left the second time. Those who say crazy is contagious, really meant depression I think. That lasted a short time for me, but the feeling was horrible. Or rather, the lack of feeling. I felt like I would do almost anything to feel again. That voice inside stopped me. I knew it wasn't real and I struggled hard to put it behind me. I worked very hard at PMA and it eventually subsided.
As a man who believes in Christ, I think often our darkest days are when we lose belief and therefore hope. That's a darkness I don't care to revisit.
So I'm happy for her. I'm glad she didn't end her life. I'm sorry she chose me, but then again I'm glad she didn't choose the kids (permanently). I hope for her sake she never goes back to that place she was in.
The lies and the rest? Sure. But I think that's to be expected. People who really know me know better. People that don't... well that's their loss And those that ask, know that it had nothing to do with me. That's good enough for me.
As my counselor once said, it could have been worse
My ex had choices and she chose this path. Via con Dios. And I hope it works out for her. I'll never fully understand, but I am not really sure I want to to be honest. That's a dark place I don't want to go if I have a choice (and I do)...
AJ
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter" MLK Put the glass down... "Yesterday I was clever so I wanted to change the world Today I am wise, so I am changing myself."
I know I'm prone to depression and I think depression partly led to my own disconnect with my W 5 or so years ago. Still, I am blessed in a way, I suppose, that my depression is generally just that and I know how to get myself out.
I should have noticed the "signs" in my W, and that still is assuming that my W IS MLC.
The thing is, my W has been diagnosed with a condition that causes symptoms such as memory loss and irritability and she also was menopausal. I actually don't know if she was pre-menopausal or she actually was/is menopausal. There's missing information on that for me.
My W was also on medication for her condition which I do not know what the side affects are. Plus, she appears to have tendencies for certain PD symptoms for as long as I've known her.
So really, I just can not tell what the heck. But many of the words and actions point at MLC.
Anyhow, so once my W started disconnecting from the M and me and reality began to sink in for me, I also slipped into a depressed state. Kinda like the blind leading the blind.
I know I'm much better now, but still wonder if I am the crazy one, at times. Wonder who's history is accurate or if it's something between her story and mine.
So it goes and so it is and forward. With compassion for the MLCer and the hope that they find their peace.
For the LBS, we so need to find our own peace as soon as we can.
Both Amy and this John (and I've seen more suggestions of this) have indicated that they DO eventually remember. Not all at once. It takes time for much of the memories to come back or be re-made. Like someone with amnesia recreating memories of their past, by bits and pieces they remember and also related to them as common history by others.
I think it was Amy as re-posted by Cadet in this thread, that suggested (or maybe it was HB in another thread) that the MLCer has two paths once they are out of the tunnel:
+ continue to deny or otherwise never face "the damage" and carry on with their new life
+ own the damage and apologize as necessary and rebuild.
The latter is obviously the more difficult road and take loads of courage and strength by the postMLCer. But some definitely do rebuild. And I also think it takes loads of courage and strength by the LBS (and others), as well.
I think the former could lead to a relapse of MLC down the road.
This post [and the direction of the thread in discussing depression] exactly reflects my experience with my xh. It is now 7 years since he entered MLC world big-time [he was paddling in its shallow waters for a while before then]. He is now through the tunnel but unable or unwilling to face his issues. He clearly isn't happy, and would like to have 'friendship' with me, but I am not a big enough person to carry this one off.
I am not nursing hurt, but feel, rightly or wrongly, that by being his 'friend' [by which he means exchanging an occasional email, and perhaps meeting up with me and the boys once a year] I am enabling his pretence that all is now well. It isn't, and nor is it anything my adult children wish to be part of. Their on-going frustration is that can't talk to their father any more about anything that matters to them or him. The barriers are still up, and he becomes angry if challenged on anything.
I have always encouraged, as far as I can without interference, them to stay in touch with their father, although he has made it hard at times by his behaviour, but he isn't my father. They see him occasionally and do exchange emails. But he was my dearly loved husband, and I am tremendously saddened by who he has become. I genuinely wish him well, but do not want to be part of his life, or want him in mine. The ML Journey doesn't always work through to a 'good' ending, sadly. That is why it is so important that we move on with our own lives and become the person we want to be, even though we didn't choose it! It is a tough on-going process that still has the pwer to sadden me at times.
Beatrice said: The ML Journey doesn't always work through to a 'good' ending, sadly. That is why it is so important that we move on with our own lives and become the person we want to be, even though we didn't choose it! It is a tough on-going process that still has the pwer to sadden me at times.
And thank goodness for all the wonderful people on here who can talk us off that ledge. I can sometimes see that I could easily jump back into self-pity. But instead I read a bit here and then climb back in the window to the new beautiful life I am creating for myself! Bea you are a lifesaver!
Me 57 XH 58 Sons age 32 & 27 M:32 D final 9/12 Bought 10 Acres and Living the Dream!
As for them "forgetting, or not remembering" I don't know if I buy that line,
As recently as two weeks ago, my husband brought up something that occured during my MLC and I absolutely do not recall acting the way he says I acted. It's not that we have "selective" memory. It's that there is so much that is going on in our heads during MLC, often some of the most traumatic and/or emotional things get pushed deep into our subconscious. I have looked at my husband a few times in the past 3 or 4 months and apologized right in the middle of a conversation about the past because I didn't remember it when I came out of the tunnel so I never really apologized for those particular things because I didnt recall them AT ALL. It stops me in my tracks to find out these "new" things from his point of view that I did back then and I don't know how long this will last. Will I still be being reminded of things 2 or 3 years from now in the middle of conversations? Fact is, it is very possible.
_____________________________________________________ I am considering doing one of these thread from Braveheart too, I know that he still posts here occassionaly and he had some very interesting threads. Stay tuned the above post is from one of these threads.
Cadet, wow we have been around awhile haven't we? Its difficult to argue with someone who has been through the MLC, and its doubly hard to do it with someone as honest as AMY was about her own experiences. In saying that, I will have to retract my statement from so many years ago. I still think many MLCers never come out of it, if they did, many more would be like Amy. Its been my experience that almost all of them move on with their lives, express no regret nor remorse for what they have done, and just generally act like its OK for them to have been or in many cases, still are Horse's Arses.
Wen's post made me think. It made me think about what "good endings" are and how that fits with the idea that if things haven't worked out, then it's not the end*.
Good to me is that I am whole. I agree with Jack (on another thread) I'd rather be LBS than MLC any day of the week. I had a front row seat for much of it. I can tell from subsequent contact that it is not a place for me. I don't ever want to live like that if I have a say in it
What used to sadden me is to know that they repress so much. We all do most likely. But the MLCr in a more pronounced way. The problem with not facing things is that they come back. Like feelings buried alive - they come back later. My ex once told me she didn't understand and didn't remember saying she never loved me. I believe that. I don't think she remembers that. I think there is much more she doesn't remember or "re-remembered". The psyche has a way of protecting itself and for good reason I'm sure. It's how we are designed.
I've learned that going through tough times, or causing issues and later having to face them is just part of life. It is what it is. We have to take the good with the bad, else it would all blend in together I think.
So did it work out "good"? I think so. I'm not happy about the impact to my children by my ex, but that's not something I have control of. Am I in a good place? Abso-friggin-lutely! I am at a place where I no longer care if she has to face or chooses not to. If she has to remember or not. I have way too many other things in my life that need and warrant my attention. Me for example...
AJ *The saying would be "all things work out for the best in the end. If it's not for the best, then it's not the end". Or something like that. It's definitely way past the end in that light... Thanks for the post Cadet.
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter" MLK Put the glass down... "Yesterday I was clever so I wanted to change the world Today I am wise, so I am changing myself."
just generally act like its OK for them to have been or in many cases, still are Horse's Arses.
I believe that if the above is the case then they have not really finished their crisis or have some other issues that may not be MLC.
My mother is 79 and has been in some sort of crisis for about 60 years, not all of it has been MLC.
Braveheart I have been reading some of your original threads and have enjoyed the discussion on them.
On this above statement you were a realitive newbie and had only been posting here for about 6 months. The rest of the thread has some very interesting comments on it.
I have to agree with Cadet yet again based on what I've seen.
Can't fix crazy and I don't wish anyone to be crazy. Even if it seems like late onset crazy (likely is some other issue to go with that may have been latent or just plain hidden/missed.)
AJ
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter" MLK Put the glass down... "Yesterday I was clever so I wanted to change the world Today I am wise, so I am changing myself."
just generally act like its OK for them to have been or in many cases, still are Horse's Arses.
I believe that if the above is the case then they have not really finished their crisis or have some other issues that may not be MLC.
My mother is 79 and has been in some sort of crisis for about 60 years, not all of it has been MLC.
Braveheart I have been reading some of your original threads and have enjoyed the discussion on them.
On this above statement you were a realitive newbie and had only been posting here for about 6 months. The rest of the thread has some very interesting comments on it.
A newbie....... Long time ago! I have changed quite a lot since those days..... As far as the MLCer not finishing the journey, I agree. I don't think most of them are able to finish it for whatever reason. I've been through it twice, my father and I have no relationship and he is all about his wife and her family, and I haven't spoken to my XW in probably 5 years or so. Point is, they just move on instead of addressing and trying to make right the damage they have done to other people. I can give many other examples of people like that. People like Amy, who went through it and tried to make amends are the rarest of the rare here. In all my years here, I have only seen 2 or 3 people like that.
I can give many other examples of people like that...In all my years here, I have only seen 2 or 3 people like that.
please avoid sweeping generalizations like that.
It's similar to reading a poster who says they have read/listen/seen 1000's of cases and none of them did, X,Y, or Z.
It's disheartening to anyone reading it. While I am not Pollyanna. I also know that most people go with numbers, and your numbers, which I don't happen to agree with paint it pretty bleak.
Not arguing with you, not butting heads just asking you to tone down the Doom.
Experience is a brutal teacher, but you learn. My God, do you learn. - C.S. Lewis
Life is usually all about how you handle Plan B. - Jack3Beans
Listen without defending; Speak without offending - FaithinAK
Just to add to what Jack posted, I am not sure low stats are any indicator...
We really have no idea the other side of the fence... those who have shunned the MLCer to the extent the post-MLCer is denied a foothold to forgiveness...
We really have to let the MLCer be on their path, however long that may take and wherever that may lead them... they've likely judged themselves and I'm pretty sure we need to....
Remember... depression says, "I'm a horrible, unworthy, bad person..." which is then followed by, "and IF IT WEREN'T FOR..." blame in order to help self soothe... depression needs to be victim in order to stick so the person depressed gets what they need...
Dang it Kaffe. Always inserting the voice of reason...You're right of course. We don't need to add to that scene...
AJ
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter" MLK Put the glass down... "Yesterday I was clever so I wanted to change the world Today I am wise, so I am changing myself."
I can give many other examples of people like that...In all my years here, I have only seen 2 or 3 people like that.
please avoid sweeping generalizations like that.
It's similar to reading a poster who says they have read/listen/seen 1000's of cases and none of them did, X,Y, or Z.
It's disheartening to anyone reading it. While I am not Pollyanna. I also know that most people go with numbers, and your numbers, which I don't happen to agree with paint it pretty bleak.
Not arguing with you, not butting heads just asking you to tone down the Doom.
Jack, I wasn't trying to be negative, just drawing on my experiences on the board, if you feel I am being too negative, I will retract my above statement.
I am considering doing one of these thread from Braveheart too, I know that he still posts here occassionaly and he had some very interesting threads. Stay tuned the above post is from one of these threads.
I can give many other examples of people like that...In all my years here, I have only seen 2 or 3 people like that.
please avoid sweeping generalizations like that.
It's similar to reading a poster who says they have read/listen/seen 1000's of cases and none of them did, X,Y, or Z.
It's disheartening to anyone reading it. While I am not Pollyanna. I also know that most people go with numbers, and your numbers, which I don't happen to agree with paint it pretty bleak.
Not arguing with you, not butting heads just asking you to tone down the Doom.
Jack3, how many times over the years have you asked this same thing of Braveheart?
Braveheart—who I think is awesome by the way—has a long history of posting ideas about reconciliation being against the odds and that MLCers won’t come through, they won’t be remorseful, they won’t change…
Braveheart, I’ve said it before and I will say it again:
“But to say that the odds are against someone is pessimistic, negative and discouraging to many. It is also not true. For those who ar fragile, it fades the light of Hope. Some may be too fragile to Withstand Standing, but for others their fragility is a naturals part of the early phases. Forget odds...for or against. If the odds were that 1% returned I would still see myself there...”
Many LBSs who choose to step down from their Stand stop posting. Many people who reach rebuilding their marriage stop posting; they are focusing on their marriage instead. This forum is not a reliable source for collecting data regarding the odds for or against reconciliation; the population is skewed.
The other thing is that maybe those odds will change. With education, maybe more people will learn about Standing and how to Stand and some who would have kicked’em to the curb quickly will not do that and will someday recover their marriage instead. That’s one of the goals of places like this. The hope is that next year there will be more reconciled marriages than this year and even more in two years and in ten a whole lot more—more than there would have been without places like this.
I am in a reconciled marriage. Now I really am living with a husband who is a Sweetheart.
Hi everyone. Maybe I missed something, but is there any place that describes how/when/why Amy came out of her crisis? Just curious as to how this stuff works.
Tad
Currently: M 56 XW 57 Sons 38,33,31,29
The Sitch: Married 26 years EA w/ OM 9/10 Bomb 10/10 (5 weeks after 25th anniversary) Sep 12/10 She wants D 1/11 W files 5/11 D final 10/11 XW marries OM 6/13
I believe cadet is pulling amy's posts out of his asssss...uhhhh...sets... yeah! assets...
From what I understand, some of Amy's original posts are now gone from archives. If you follow some of the links cadet posted earlier in this thread, I think you can see some explanations of how amy ended up "out" of MLC...
Hi everyone. Maybe I missed something, but is there any place that describes how/when/why Amy came out of her crisis? Just curious as to how this stuff works.
Tad
Try reading this thread from Braveheart, and post from 8/24/06 which I posted earlier in this thread. I guess DB has purged one of the threads that explains the MLC in more detail.
Originally Posted by AmyC
It was actually a series of events, one being a huge dose of reality. My husband had left for a second time, I had gotten rid of the OM and I was really alone for the first time. I just couldn't run anymore and I couldn't look at myself in the mirror either.
Also, last August 13th, I was on the scene of a motorcycle accident up the road from my house in which the man died with me sitting in the ditch beside him waiting for the ambulance. I can not effectively describe what that did to me but it had A LOT to do with me recognizing how quickly everything can be gone and what is really important.
There is no one thing that is going to pull somebody out of a MLC. It depends on the person. IMO, non-interference by the LBS will allow a person to come through it quicker.
During my MLC, I did not see ANYTHING for what it really was. I don't know how to explain the deception I was under which was largely self-imposed.
But right about this time last year I starting pulling my head out of my ass and it was not a pretty picture at all.
Amy
Also I posted this thread from Braveheart which re-asks the same question. 8/27/06
Last edited by Cadet; 11/30/1802:54 PM. Reason: remove links that have been purged
Not that an MLCer will ever admit that something is wrong with them or "not right", but is there any posting on Amy's thoughts about this? With or without OP?
Currently: M 56 XW 57 Sons 38,33,31,29
The Sitch: Married 26 years EA w/ OM 9/10 Bomb 10/10 (5 weeks after 25th anniversary) Sep 12/10 She wants D 1/11 W files 5/11 D final 10/11 XW marries OM 6/13
I don't have one of the posts, but I think she said she felt she wasn't wrong *at the time*. It wasn't until later...
For what it's worth, they do sometimes admit it. Mine said something like that, but has since forgotten that and decided I'm to blame for everything again; seems to think I can't get over her leaving (as if) but that what she's doing with regards to the kids is fine.
They may never admit it us though. At least not truthfully. Can you imagine how hard that would be for them?? (as opposed to how hard it is to continue with the stories right?)
I doubt seriously it would mean much even if they did. Closure comes from within. Figuring it out or hearing those words has little effect in the scheme of things.
AJ
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter" MLK Put the glass down... "Yesterday I was clever so I wanted to change the world Today I am wise, so I am changing myself."
Tad AmyC is on my fb page, go add her. She is pretty cool. I know she said she was married to an alcoholic. They did not reconcile. Says he is still lost.
Not that an MLCer will ever admit that something is wrong with them or "not right", but is there any posting on Amy's thoughts about this? With or without OP?
AmyC Member
Registered: 10/26/05 Posts: 12896
Looks like....about 12,000 of them ????
Call me crazy
Cadet ....
Have you come across her story about the "adult" site she joined, to make her husband jealous ???
Have you come across her story about the "adult" site she joined, to make her husband jealous ???
Get ready to LYAO when you do....
Yes I read that, don't ask me which post it was though.
Unfortunately 1/2 of her posts have been PURGED. There are about 6350 posts still here.
I really wanted the ones that spoke about her MLC, the board has lots of good advice to read, even yours MACH.
But not that much insight into the mind of an MLC'er.
That insight helps to give me comfort and understanding. Not that I can do anything about it.
If it was so easy to just go to a dating website and get your spouse back then MWD would change the TOS and sell dates to LBS's. I don't think it works that way. And, FTR, this is not directed at anyone in particular.
Cadet, MGoBlue is a former poster who experienced an MLC. His postings should be somewhere in the archives.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
M Go Blue Paul has so many good threads I don't know if I can list them all. There are over 30 threads spanning a period of 2000-2007. Snodderly if you have any other favorites please let me know.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
Hi everyone. Maybe I missed something, but is there any place that describes how/when/why Amy came out of her crisis? Just curious as to how this stuff works.
Tad
Try reading this thread from Braveheart, and post from 8/24/06 which I posted earlier in this thread. I guess DB has purged one of the threads that explains the MLC in more detail.
It was actually a series of events, one being a huge dose of reality. My husband had left for a second time, I had gotten rid of the OM and I was really alone for the first time. I just couldn't run anymore and I couldn't look at myself in the mirror either.
Also, last August 13th, I was on the scene of a motorcycle accident up the road from my house in which the man died with me sitting in the ditch beside him waiting for the ambulance. I can not effectively describe what that did to me but it had A LOT to do with me recognizing how quickly everything can be gone and what is really important.
There is no one thing that is going to pull somebody out of a MLC. It depends on the person. IMO, non-interference by the LBS will allow a person to come through it quicker.
During my MLC, I did not see ANYTHING for what it really was. I don't know how to explain the deception I was under which was largely self-imposed.
But right about this time last year I starting pulling my head out of my ass and it was not a pretty picture at all.
Amy
Also I posted this thread from Braveheart which re-asks the same question. 8/27/06
It seems like a very long time ago, and it was! It goes without saying that I have learned a lot since then and my thought process has changed a lot when looking at MLC. I really feel that I am the most misunderstood person on this board. Yes, I have my thoughts on stats and success rates, yes, I'm not too positive when talking about it, but I do not discourage people from standing, quite the opposite. I encourage newbees to stand when this starts, I also encourage people to change things up and not be so predictable. I do feel that there comes a time to move on..... I know before I continue this, everyone will say that the individual must make that choice and determination. Again I agree, but I do encourage them to move forward. We have people who have been on here doing the same things for 8 or more years. Its obvious to even the most positive person that those tactics aren't working and changes need to be made. What I see many times are lots of people too afraid to do anything different out of fear. I try to help people get past that, try to become their own person, be more self-reliant and live their lives. Again, I know many will disagree with my methods, statements, and thoughts, and that's your right. I think standing is needed and warranted for a time, but after a time, you need to look at other options. I think that after awhile people who stand for long periods of time develop a poor self-esteem and develop a lot of resentment. Case in point, I have a cousin who's H went through a MLC, he left her with 3 kids, had the OW and did everything with her. She told me about it and I asked her if she wanted him back? Yes was her answer. Are you willing to endure all the things that come with this? Yes was her answer. I told her to go for it and work on making herself a better person. Fast forward 2 years, he loses his job, the OW leaves him, and he returns home.... Fast forward now 6 months later. She wants to divorce him, feels like she was 2nd choice, feels like he lost everything because of the OW, etc. I told her these were some of the side-effects to standing and she needed to process this before she divorced him. She told me that she felt this was the only way that she could feel good about herself again. Anyway, lots of pitfalls no matter what you do.
Hello all, I don't have much time today but my former screenname was spirit. I read occassionally but things have been a whirlwind for the last year with very little time to post.
I will try to update soon but found the AmyC MLC musings so similiar it was eerie.
I saw Cadet pull some of my old posts which was interesting.
Wishing everyone contentment and peacefulness in life.
I changed screenames a while ago but never posted. I lost, threw away, or didnt have the energy to keep track of everything through selling our farm, moving, and being the rock for my kids through this ordeal.
where I am today:
I am a great father. I am at a greater peace. Our kids are at a greater peace, except for the middle one. I have many friends. I have a whole GAL life thats real. People tend to gravitate toward me now. I have had people say its that I give off a positive vibe. I do believe this myself.
So, all in all life is good.
The MLC thing from Amy intrigued me. one is because my STBXW and I have very little contact. Amy said she deliberately did npot engage her husband and did everything to stay away. This is my STBXW to a tee. I have let her go and will be divorced in about 90 days. This is her journey to travel.
I will post more later as I want to talk about MLC a little more.
Hello all, I don't have much time today but my former screenname was spirit. I read occassionally but things have been a whirlwind for the last year with very little time to post.
I will try to update soon but found the AmyC MLC musings so similiar it was eerie.
I saw Cadet pull some of my old posts which was interesting.
Wishing everyone contentment and peacefulness in life.
Spirit
Mirage/Spirit thanks for checking in. If you want to elaborate any more on any MLC topic feel free to hijack here.
I am sure as time goes along it is harder and harder to remember your own crisis.
Then again it is hard for me to remember what I ate for dinner last night.
The MLC thing from Amy intrigued me. one is because my STBXW and I have very little contact. Amy said she deliberately did npot engage her husband and did everything to stay away. This is my STBXW to a tee.
Sounds like a vanisher. That would be my W if it weren't for the kids.
If vanisher is the same as running away then your right. My STBXW has very little contact with the two older boys and minimal contact with the youngest daughter if you count quality time.
I read threads where people ask why is my significant other doing this?, I cant believe it! Why? Who would do such a thing.
Well, I believe MLC is real. Of course people can dispute that I had one. The only real criteria is I know I did and I came through it. I think AmyC would probably say the same thing.
If you are asking the questions above. Reread AmyC again and again and again. In MLC you are so wacked out. She did not listen to her sister. Nobody could tell her any different. I was the same way. The ironic part is my STBXW is the same as AmyC has described.
I know bravehart was smacked on the fingers by J3B for taking away hope. I respect J3B immensely. He has been a blessing to this board. A full blown MLC is difficult to come back from. I think the reason you don't hear from more people coming through it is they don't. What I mean by that is what AmyC indicated in here posts. She knew, she learned the lessons and she made amends. She is what I would call a complete healthy, balanced individual who has walked through psychological h!ll, learned the lesson and been able to come back and articulate it clearly. Truly a monumental task in my book.
I would not want a relationship with someone stuck in the tunnel. If they don't make it through the chances of a mature, adult relationship are minimal.
Just to set the record straight and give J3B some credit as well. I have hope that someday my STBXW comes through the fog. One reason is our kids. Another is that we had a good marriage. Just as AMY C said we hold the truth of how it really was within ourselves the LBS.
Will it happen? Im laughing out loud right now. I have no idea! What I learned through all of this.
You have today, make the most of it. Be thankful for what you have. Be thankful you are a LBS, not an MLCer. Mine was H@ll and AmyC was too based on what she wrote.
What brings you out of MLC? I think everyones answer is different. Mine was I emptied my bag of stuffed emotions and was able to truly forgive others and myself for being human.
This website was a blessing for me in some very difficult times. It has helped me become a stronger person.
Thanks for posting that spirit/mirage. Very kind of you.
Question - did you make amends for your behavior when done? Just curious.
The insights from you and the others mentioned are invaluable in helping others understand and forgive. It speeds things up immeasurably. At least it did for me. I'm very grateful for that.
Peace,
AJ
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter" MLK Put the glass down... "Yesterday I was clever so I wanted to change the world Today I am wise, so I am changing myself."
Yes, I made amends after my MLC journey completed. not to sound cocky or conceited but we had a very good marriage. I would say our personalities clicked for many, many years.
Her sisters commented to me regularly that she always spoke how she liked the way I treated her.
I did become a better husband after MLC as well. I can't say what affect my MLC had on her while I was in it. I went through an internal, withdrawaling, depressive MLC.
Hers started about 1 1/2 after mine ended. She is roughly 3 years into hers. unfortunately she has a ways to go I think.(and it doesn't pay to think when someones in MLC)
I havent seen her more than a dozen times in the last couple years since she moved out.
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter" MLK Put the glass down... "Yesterday I was clever so I wanted to change the world Today I am wise, so I am changing myself."
I read threads where people ask why is my significant other doing this?, I cant believe it! Why? Who would do such a thing.
Well, I believe MLC is real. Of course people can dispute that I had one. The only real criteria is I know I did and I came through it. I think AmyC would probably say the same thing.
If you are asking the questions above. Reread AmyC again and again and again. In MLC you are so wacked out. She did not listen to her sister. Nobody could tell her any different. I was the same way. The ironic part is my STBXW is the same as AmyC has described.
I know bravehart was smacked on the fingers by J3B for taking away hope. I respect J3B immensely. He has been a blessing to this board. A full blown MLC is difficult to come back from. I think the reason you don't hear from more people coming through it is they don't. What I mean by that is what AmyC indicated in here posts. She knew, she learned the lessons and she made amends. She is what I would call a complete healthy, balanced individual who has walked through psychological h!ll, learned the lesson and been able to come back and articulate it clearly. Truly a monumental task in my book.
I would not want a relationship with someone stuck in the tunnel. If they don't make it through the chances of a mature, adult relationship are minimal.
Just to set the record straight and give J3B some credit as well. I have hope that someday my STBXW comes through the fog. One reason is our kids. Another is that we had a good marriage. Just as AMY C said we hold the truth of how it really was within ourselves the LBS.
Will it happen? Im laughing out loud right now. I have no idea! What I learned through all of this.
You have today, make the most of it. Be thankful for what you have. Be thankful you are a LBS, not an MLCer. Mine was H@ll and AmyC was too based on what she wrote.
What brings you out of MLC? I think everyones answer is different. Mine was I emptied my bag of stuffed emotions and was able to truly forgive others and myself for being human.
This website was a blessing for me in some very difficult times. It has helped me become a stronger person.
Thanks to all who post.
Spirit
I agree with what you are saying. I don't try to be negative just to be mean to people. I truly do not believe that many of them come out of an MLC. I think its very rare. It takes a very strong person to stand up and admit the hurtful things they have done to people. Its much easier to live the lie and take the low road. Any attempt to re-unite with a former spouse would be an admission of wrong doing. Its not human nature to admit wrong, therefore its much easier to make the LBS into the bad persona and stick to that storyline.
The other thing is that maybe those odds will change. With education, maybe more people will learn about Standing and how to Stand and some who would have kicked’em to the curb quickly will not do that and will someday recover their marriage instead. That’s one of the goals of places like this. The hope is that next year there will be more reconciled marriages than this year and even more in two years and in ten a whole lot more—more than there would have been without places like this.
Yes. So true. In fact, my first marriage ended up in Separation and then Divorce and after reading DB, I realise that I did all the wrong things back then. I was much younger (33) and my first Wife left for pretty much the same reasons as W is leaving now. It's just unfortunate that i learned a great deal about living through a separation after having gone through my first one. I just wish I had learned that much about living in a relationship. This time around, I didn't follow what hadn't worked the first time around. I felt prepared (thanks to sites like this) and i think I have done well enough even though I still have lots to learn. At least, now i understand why W is doing what she's doing (in fact, I now understand why 1stW left as well). This time around, I want to learn how to live in a relationship. I want to make sure that "if" I can save my M, it'll be once and for all and that if i can't, that my next relationship (another if)won't end up like the previous 2. In the meantime i still think that the work I've done so far on myself is good and should have been done ages ago. I'm all for changing the odds. When you bet on a long shot, the odds are way against you but the rewards are much higher when your horse comes in.
Thanks for this great thread. I learned a lot. Thanks AmyC I wish you all the best where ever you are now.
Freshman Class of 2012
M-49 W-42 1D-10 T 10 YEARS M 9 YEARS EA/MLC 07/2010 Separation 28/05/2012 PA confirmed 31/07/12 W Asked for D 31/07/12 D on and off the table since then
Its much easier to live the lie and take the low road. Any attempt to re-unite with a former spouse would be an admission of wrong doing. Its not human nature to admit wrong, therefore its much easier to make the LBS into the bad persona and stick to that storyline.
Well it takes two to reconcile and the LBS has to be willing to accept the MLC'er and from what I seem to read that is not always the way that works.
M Go Blue was not willing to accept a reconnection from his MLC'er, Snodderly has said the same thing.
Granted they are broken but it does seem like the LBS gets to make the last call.
Braveheart if you have not gotten that opportunity yet then maybe you are right, they are stuck in the tunnel.
1000 ships has very wise words. Do you agree Braveheart with anything she said?
If the average MLC is 7 years then there will be ones that are shorter and ones that are longer. And from a quote from a STANDER I know is that "IF SPEED is your GOAL you will fail."
Mirage/Spirit thanks for your perspective.
Originally Posted By: Spirit
I would not want a relationship with someone stuck in the tunnel. If they don't make it through the chances of a mature, adult relationship are minimal.
I absolutely agree with this and many reconnection attempts are made while they are still within the MLC. So the LBS really needs to be emotionally strong to make it work.
Cadet, you are a wise man. I totally agree. You have to be strong enough to let down your wall while absorbing a full frontal assault in many cases. Easier said than done.
I'm one that is not standing either. I made that choice and it was a choice. I was not willing to reconnect after the actions etc. I'm very happy with my choice but it wasn't always so.
When a MLC'r tries to bring you close, it's often followed by a club. If you have the wrong perspective, it often hurts a lot. Once you have the right perspective you can withstand anything. We try hard on this board to help people see what we see. What we have learned. It takes time and varies for many how long that is.
Sometimes the MLCr stays lost. Sometimes we play a part in that by being too slow to "see" properly. In the end, it has very little to do with us for the most part. It's why we need to get out of the way and figure out early on if we'll stand or not...
AJ
AJ
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter" MLK Put the glass down... "Yesterday I was clever so I wanted to change the world Today I am wise, so I am changing myself."
What troubles me, and I truly mean this as no disrespect to any who have no need or desire to engage their MLCer, whether the MLCer is still in the tunnel or possibly out of it....
Is that I do see LBS who simply remain angry and bitter at their MLCer. And I'm not talking just here, I mean one sees it IRL many times.
Again, right now, I'm still guilty of that from time to time...
and then I check myself...
Do I need to hold onto that?
I so am working on not being an old, bitter LBS when I'm 86 yrs old. I hope I'd have better stuff to do with the next 40 years than hold onto that stuff... or stuffing it subconsciously...
Again, right now, I'm still guilty of that from time to time...
and then I check myself...
Do I need to hold onto that?
I so am working on not being an old, bitter LBS when I'm 86 yrs old. I hope I'd have better stuff to do with the next 40 years than hold onto that stuff... or stuffing it subconsciously...
That's the hope I hold for me...
Me too KD. Thanks for putting it into words. Staying angry will only hurt me.
Me(f): 51 W: 41 DP:8 M:3 T:10 "W not happy" 7/11 D final: 8/13
KD, I've seen many that remain bitter. I suspect much of that is because they contact but also because they haven't quite got past it. Takes work, but like you I have no intention of being that person who remains bitter. Forgiveness doesn't mean forget however when you have to deal with these people. Some can be friends later. Some cannot. Is what it is and learning to accept that it will be what it is is truly the hardest part of the journey.
Is for me at any rate.
AJ
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter" MLK Put the glass down... "Yesterday I was clever so I wanted to change the world Today I am wise, so I am changing myself."
This is interesting. I find my bitterness is fading. I am still angry about things in general, but have a whole different mindset than a year ago. And as I shuffle down this awfully bumpy road one thing becomes clear: I have no control over what he does or thinks. So I am just taking my self out of the equation.
Me 57 XH 58 Sons age 32 & 27 M:32 D final 9/12 Bought 10 Acres and Living the Dream!
I read through this entire thread last night and I CANNOT put into words how much it has helped me! Thanks Cadet for starting it and thanks to everyone who has contributed!
It's great how this board helps people through these conversations, isn't it?
I remember when I first started this journey (to be clear, when I first became aware I was on a journey like this). I really just needed to feel like I wasn't crazy and that I wasn't the things somebody I used to trust said I was. You'd think I knew, but oddly, when faced with it daily you have to pick and choose what you're going to believe in.
Along the way, I felt everything I once knew sandblasted away. I felt naked, so to speak.
After a while, much of what I saw began to sink in. The two main messages: take care of you, and let go what you cannot control. Oddly, those are two things I already knew, but had lost sight of.
Like, Wen, after a while I was able to let go of almost all the anger. Thanks to this board and the conversations, I remember being able to really see and better understand I am not alone in this. Even the things my ex says (yes, still does but just via email now thank God) are common variations.
These conversations helped me find me. It helped me build a better me.
For that, I'm forever grateful and try to give back.
I wouldn't trade this experience for anything (I would have delayed it for my kids though. I'm not crazy yet
Later,
AJ
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter" MLK Put the glass down... "Yesterday I was clever so I wanted to change the world Today I am wise, so I am changing myself."
As a woman- i wonder if a man (my man) would/could come to her conclusions and find his way out. it sure was an eye-opener. my H sounds like her- totally unaware he may be the problem, contribute to it or even be involved. it's all about his fun and my causing all the trouble. i have trouble having faith (in him) - i have a bit of hope in life- in general - i have alot of confusion & pain. interesting insights tho..- thanks for sharing it
IMO, when someone is in a CRISIS they do not see it. They cannot understand it.
Funny, I spoke with my Mom yesterday (recent death in the family) and she was explaining to me what SHE went through. Man it was tough to hear. She admitted to feeling like she was in a (exact quote here) "fog". She admitted to feeling this way for 10 years. She was quite remorseful of some of her actions during her crisis and even admitted that sometime it still comes back...sometime she still feels like she is in a fog.
Nero, I have not read your entire sitch...but my advise is to listen to folks here that stress....detachment and focusing on YOU. It really is the only way through this.
God Bless, Eric
"The difficulties of Life are intended to make us BETTER,not bitter". "Fear is a prison, where you are the jailer. FREE YOURSELF!" "Life is usually all about how you handle Plan B." - Jack3Beans
M: 29, H: 31 D: 9 S: 8 T: 13 Y M: 9 Y ILYBIDKIILWY 12/09/2012 ~~~~ Worrying does not empty tomorrow of its troubles. ~~~ it Emptys today of its strengths
Babe, Thank you so much! I read through this and so many of the links. So much to think about. So much to help me stay the course. Focus on me. Detach. GAL. Self Differentiation... It is not easy from one moment to the next. Sometimes some tactics work to get me out of my head. Sometimes, it doesn't. But the most important thing I am reminding myself is that it is his MLC journey. I am on my own. I actually think I was in MLC (mild) for a while and this actually forced me to look at where I am now. Not sure. Still processing... so much growth going on even with CoVid....
Hope all is well.
W (me): 50 H: 46 M: 21 T: 25 S:17 D:15 BD 11/2019
Fate whispers to the warrior, "You can not withstand the storm" And the warrior whispers back, "I am the storm." ~Unknown
I AM impressed!