Is the cake eating 6

[bustorama]

NLW,

I am going to smack you squarely with a 2x4. And it is because I care about you and want you to prevail over your life crisis.

I wrote you the below in JANUARY, echoing things I had written to you in OCTOBER AND NOVEMBER. Please re-read it in light of your current situation. Again, the path to prevailing either yourself or with a reconciliation is the same -- pull away from him (or even PUSH him away as a boundary enforcement of how you deserve to be treated) and move on with your own life.

1) WAS pilfering your and the kids' finances because he has run through his own
2) WAS now living with OW (rather than his mate)
3) WAS no longer as engaged with family as in January (which was less then in October)
4) WAS now traveling with OW

Here is what I wrote you:
The nub of the problem is that you are still not accepting and validating and moving forward with your life (LRT-like) per his stated intention not to be with you. You are still trying to maximize contact between the two of you, inviting him to activities during your time with daughter, and trying to strategize the circumstances under which you can "win him back."

This approach is doomed to fail and is not DBing. In fact, your WAS pulling further away ("we don't want to give the kids the wrong impression") is evidence that the approach you are pursuing is not working and that the bond between the two of you is slipping away over time. He also is not calling you for coffee and other activities as frequently as he was back in October or spending as much time around the house. [b/]If YOU had dropped the bomb on HIM back in October ("yeah you're right, it's best for me if you don't come around OR CALL me anymore, I want to set up separate visitation and financial arrangements, so I can move on with my life,"[/b] it would, at best, have been more effective than if you drop it on him now, and, at worst, you would be farther along in your life and the process of moving on from someone who doesn't know your value. Perhaps it is not too late.

Your sitch has not substantively improved since when I wrote the below to you in early November:

Originally Posted By: bustorama
Try NOT to think about this from a strategic perspective ("will this or won't this bring him back") because then you are not emotionally detached from his choices, and you can get into a spiral of mind reading.

Instead, think whether or not the situation works for you. Are you OK with being treated as a faux-W at your ex-H's convenience? For a ex-H to come in and out of your emotional life at his whim and on his schedule? For an ex-H to occupy much of your daily emotional time -- when will there be time for you to heal and move on?

Because, in your WAH's mind, he is your ex-H at this time. If he was seeking rapproachment with you, or begins to say things like, I am glad we are getting along better now, I enjoy spending time with you more, I like being with YOU and the kids, I miss being with YOU, etc., then I would say to re-examine your doubts and keep things up. But from his words ('now that we are separated') and actions (sleeping away at night), he still sees you two as not a couple, separated, broken up, finished.

I wonder if your discomfort and annoyance at the situation is a sign that you are allowing your WAH to cross a boundary on how you want to be treated in your relationship with your H. If it bothers you, it is more than fine to communicate and enforce that boundary the next time he suggests coffee, drinks or another day together.

You know, H. I really enjoyed spending time with you when we were together, it was great. But, this situation isn't working for me. I mean, we're broken up, but you are here all the time during the day. Because we are separated and not living as a married couple, I need more space from you.

Again, this in no way means you should be hostile to him. Continue to be warm, attractive, HOT, NLW. But, communicate and enforce that boundary to him, and be more mysterious and less available. Establish more of the space he says he wants by moving on with your life.

and also here:

Originally Posted By: NLW
He said again tonight that getting back together is just not going to happen.

Bustorama:
Accept this is how he feels, and act accordingly.

Originally Posted By: NLW
He said that that was the turning point where I made it clear I was no longer involved in his life/business, and now I have to get along as best I can without him.

I tried to reason with him and pointed out that I had bank-rolled his business for 15 years prior to this, and that i had to think of trying to keep the house and what was best for the kids. I also pointed out that even his parents, whom I'd contacted for advice on what to do, had advised me not to give him my salary cheque. He looked surprised to hear this, but in the end, it cut no ice with him at all.

Bustorama:
You know why? Because you are still arguing with/antagonist to his point of view. You didn't validate his point of view/feelings. Try to see his point of view and accept it (not necessarily agree with it).

You know, H, I can totally see how you would feel that way given what you said. Yeah, I don't know what I was thinking trying to convince you otherwise. I hear that you want a life separate from me, so I am going to focus on myself and my life without you.

Originally Posted By: NLW
In his mind, we are over, with no possibility of change. We are just no good together, yadda yadda yadda.

Bustorama:
So now it's been reconfirmed. When he comes by, it is not (in his conscious mind) with an eye towards getting back with you. Do you want an ex filling your days?

Originally Posted By: NLW
I asked how he wanted to proceed from here and he said we should just keep on being separated. I'm pretty much over this idea. It's just too hard to do. Every day another abandonment, another hurt, and recently, constant irritability from him.

Bustorama:
That's right, you don't deserve to be treated like this. He has no incentive for the status quo to change. He likes things just fine the way they are where he has the parts of you and the family in this faux marriage. Do you like things the way they are? You are worth more. =)

Originally Posted By: NLW
They don't deserve to have this storm break over their lives. It makes me feel so sick and sad.

Busstorama:
Yes, I get it hurts. Model for them how you might like them to act if the same thing happens to them in their lives.

Originally Posted By: NLW
but I really don't think there's any hope for us to get back together.

Bustorama:
Try to focus on your self, not the R or him or his actions.

Thanks guys, I really appreciate your feedback.

ncl,
I'm hoping the accumulating evidence about his financial fraudulence will make his claims against my assets null and void. The amounts that I stand to gain when his claims are thrown out are major in relation to the amounts he's filching at the moment.

Busting - the "bubble waiting to pop" metaphor is so accurate!

Last night we got another big strain on the surface tension of our existence.

H is about to leave for a holiday weekend interstate (with the home wrecker, I presume).

I've asked him to help out with money before he leaves - as S13 is going to camp before H returns and needs serious cold-weather gear. My cheque account and credit cards have been run down so far that I no longer have money for food and petrol. My next pay cheque is a week away.

We also have several major bills that are overdue for rates and credit cards.

So BIG pressure on H to come up with some money to keep his family going.
But it seems there is none.

He came over last night to help the kids with homework - and even let me drive his car (it was blocking mine in the drive way) to the shop to get food for dinner (and gave me $100 cash when I said I was broke). This was a small miracle in terms of what he's allowed me to do previously.

Then he left, all very amicable.

I went to put my car in the garage and noticed that the engine was making a loud banging noise.

I called H to ask if he could take the kids to school in the morning as the car was undrivable.
He went ballistic again.

Told me it was my fault I had no car. That I should have bought myself a new one by now (with what, I asked?) , and that he would not be driving the kids around unless they lived with him (he SAYS he lives in a rented room at a single man's house). He said I should drive it to the workshop to get it fixed. I pointed out that I had no money to do that.

Then I said "Thank you H, Bye", and hung up.

I called MIL and asked her help in getting the kids to school tomorrow.

About 5 mins later there was a loud knocking on the door and H burst in and shoved the keys of our other car (the luxury car he has commandeered for himself) at me. Told me he would take 'my' car, and that we were now another $10,000 down the drain and that it was all my fault for driving the car into the ground.
He said he was SO ANGRY.

Then he roared off at a 100mph down the driveway (with the car making a terrible noise).

This morning, I realised I'd left my work car-park permit in the car he'd taken, so texted him to ask if I could come over and pick it up.
He responded with some half-assed story about it already being in the workshop (at 7am!) and that he'd bring the permit over to me.

Seems he just can't bring himself to admit to us that he's living with the home- wrecker these days and not with his 'mate'.

Another 'why' question that I need to get out of my system: Why can't he tell me that he's living with her?
If he doesn't want to be married to me any more, why the need to keep it such a big secret?

His bubble just has to burst soon, I think. A little worried about what he will do when it does - he really seems to have no way out of this disaster.

[bustorama]

Test, my other post isnt appearing

[bustorama]

Oh, there it is, so my recommendation would still be:

1) Enforce a boundary (if it is a boundary of yours) that you will not have someone that is cheating on you (or not valuing your M/R) as a part of your life. No accepting visits, calls, or contact from him. "I need space from you."

2) Legal custody arrangement (he needs to pull his weight of kids OR be paying you regularly in kind)

3) Legal financial separation (to protect yourself and kids)

4) If you are up to it, file for D against him as your ultimate boundary enforcement of how you deserve to be treated.

None of the above is vindictive, mean or angry. He can interpret it as so if he wishes. It is a boundary enforcement of how you wish and deserve to be treated in a marital R.

The more that it is YOU pulling away from him, you rejecting him as unacceptable to you, the more likely he is to come back. And, if he doesn't, it is truly his loss, and you will emerge ready to continue your life open to meeting someone who values you, your family, and your M.

[YankeeCandle]

I am sooooo soooo sorry for you in this situation. It is indeed painful, and I would say allow yourself to feel what you feel and acknowledge and validate yourself. I think that's really important. I would do no contact for a long time. He's not giving you anything anyway, so it's no major loss.

I know some people here don't advocate dating, but I personally see no problem with it. You're heart might not be in it, but dating/flirting really does help the self-esteem.

Be as selfish as you can possibly be - in spirit, mind and body!

[YankeeCandle]

The breathing exercise is so perfect for allowing - thanks again Zig

[ncl]

1) Enforce a boundary (if it is a boundary of yours) that you will not have someone that is cheating on you (or not valuing your M/R) as a part of your life. No accepting visits, calls, or contact from him. "I need space from you."

2) Legal custody arrangement (he needs to pull his weight of kids OR be paying you regularly in kind)

3) Legal financial separation (to protect yourself and kids)

4) If you are up to it, file for D against him as your ultimate boundary enforcement of how you deserve to be treated.

None of the above is vindictive, mean or angry. He can interpret it as so if he wishes. It is a boundary enforcement of how you wish and deserve to be treated in a marital R.

The more that it is YOU pulling away from him, you rejecting him as unacceptable to you, the more likely he is to come back. And, if he doesn't, it is truly his loss, and you will emerge ready to continue your life open to meeting someone who values you, your family, and your M.

I agree with all of the above. Just because you establish and enforce boundaries does NOT mean you are not leaving the path home paved and smooth. Instead, it means you are standing up for yourself and for your children. It is showing your husband that you deserve respect and honor. If he can't honor that, then he isn't good enough for you!!!

In my case, until I established and enforced boundaries, my marriage didn't improve and our reconciling efforts failed. If my husband had been unwilling to respect and honor my boundaries...number one being no contact in any form for any reason with ow ever again...then I would be divorced by now. I was tired of living that life.

I'm very, very sorry you are going through this. When my husband was having his affair, he was the one to file for divorce. However, unlike the times before, I didn't drag my feet in getting to a lawyer to respond. When he realized I meant business this time and was sick to death of putting up with his bs, he took a long, hard look at what he was doing and what his life without me as his wife would be like. I took back my power, and I can't tell you how good that felt. Yes, it was scary at first, but it was a lot less scary than having HIM in control of my life while he was carrying on with that ow!

Your husband is not being a man who deserves a great lady like you. Hang in there, draw strength from your children and TAKE BACK YOUR POWER.

Hugs, ncl

[NLW]

Thanks everyone, so much, for your feedback.

I'm still a bit shell-shocked to have had my worst fears confirmed - that h is in a full relationship with OW.

I thought I had been doing pretty well detaching from him in my day-to-day life. I had been moving on with my life and was not pursuing. At least in my head, things had changed for me - I have cut many of the ties and was interacting with him differently.

But obviously I need to take action again on the finances - that and the kids is our only connection, really, now.

I feel like I really need a DB coach, the line between keeping the road home paved and smooth and going NC still confuses me.

Often, I read here about DB coaches advising people to be nicer to their spouses, to do things that show them what they're missing, and so on. The advice from posters however often seems to be different - it's more like, until you tell your spouse you're done with them, they won't think about returning.

I feel like I know my H - I believe he does want to come home but is too frightened, ashamed, and believes he is too much of a bad person to return.

He has to run from the ruin that he's caused to us, and as he said recently, he is with OW because she is just the sort of person that he deserves (i.e., they are both bad people).

H texted the kids repeatedly yesterday with messages of how much he loved them and missed them. He sent them hugs over and again. It wasn't smarmy, just heart-wrenching really. I guess the fantasy holiday hasn't really worked out too well (and only 2 days in).

As MIL says, he just seems so lost.

He really was a nice guy before all this financial disaster happened and he lost the ability to cope.

I'll keep reading what you have all advised and try to work towards it.

Busto, in particular, I know you must be at your wits end with me.
I thought I had taken your advice onboard - I'd detached, moved on, and changed my mental attitude - but obviously I am still trying to make him see what he's missing with me in ways that are not working out so well.

I'll keep paying attention and valuing this great advice I'm receiving. Please bear with me, this is taking me some time to work out....

ncl, I particularly like the idea of taking my power back. Boy, do I need that!

Best, NLW

[NLW]

ncl,
I particularly wanted to reply to say thank you for keeping on helping me out.
I think of you often and pray that things are going well for your family.

That you come back to check up on me like this means so much. You've a been a great support for my whole journey - your's was one of the first replies to my initial post and right then I knew that I had met someone special (your kind words made me cry).

Hearing from you over the months about your own sitch in parallel circumstances has helped me keep going.

So, thanks for reinforcing Busto's words with your own experience. It all helps get things through my thick skull..

I need to enforce boundaries, I need to enforce boundaries. I need not to be so afraid that I'll drive him away; he is already gone.

He is gone and there's nothing I can do about that.

But, here comes my 'but': He did look ashamed and embarrassed when our friend caught his eye as he was sashaying around with OW on their trip. He didn't speak to our friend but just looked away, hoping she hadn't recognised him, apparently.

Just thought I'd throw that in to prove that my excuses for him - that he is ashamed and feels guilty about what he's doing - are valid ones that have been driving my attempts to detach but remain in contact.

I'm trying to walk the line of showing him that he has not gone so far as to be at the point of no return. That I do not consider his actions to be so shameful that he can never come back. It's all about shame and failure for him, I'm sure, so I am trying to navigate this path, if that makes any sense.

[bustorama]

I need to enforce boundaries. I need not to be so afraid that I'll drive him away; he is already gone.

He is gone and there's nothing I can do about that.

^^^THIS. HE is the only person that can and should control himself.

I'm trying to walk the line of showing him that he has not gone so far as to be at the point of no return. That I do not consider his actions to be so shameful that he can never come back.

^^^NOT THIS. Do you see how the second quote is incompatible with the boldfaced part of the first quote? By "showing" him things, making it clear that "doors are open," you are devaluing yourself and your boundaries, trying to control him, and also implicitly disrespecting him as being incapable of fixing himself, his bad choices, and his own emotions.

He is a grown man. He KNOWS that what he is doing is wrong. That he expreses shame, evasion, deception is evidence of this. Do not excuse, enable or minimize his choices. He is all powerful to choose differently and is more likely to do so if he is starkly confronted with the reality of his choices (per ncl's messages). And, like ncl said, if he doesn't, then he does not deserve you and all the loyalty and love of which you are so clearly capable.

It's all about shame and failure for him, I'm sure,

You are mindreading and projecting here, in part based on what he has spewed to you.

You can reject his behavior without rejecting him and closing the door irrecovably on your relationship. It's up to him to deal with his own shame, and he can if he chooses to -- it is not your responsibility to manage his emotions.

If you enforce a boundary that says something to the effect of, "H, I loved when we were together as a couple and as a family. I am sorry for my share of mistakes in our M. But, I am not ok with having a relationship of any kind with someone who IS ACTIVELY cheating on me and, in doing so, is being disrespectful to me and our kids. I am worth more than that. In light of what is going on, I would like to set up up formal custody arrangements for the kids as well as legal separation of our finances. Etc. etc.

I know it's scary as hell, but it is setting yourself free and taking control of your life back.

[NLW]

HE is the only person that can and should control himself.

[quote=NLW]I'm trying to walk the line of showing him that he has not gone so far as to be at the point of no return. That I do not consider his actions to be so shameful that he can never come back.

^^^NOT THIS. Do you see how the second quote is incompatible with the boldfaced part of the first quote? By "showing" him things, making it clear that "doors are open," you are devaluing yourself and your boundaries, trying to control him, and also implicitly disrespecting him as being incapable of fixing himself, his bad choices, and his own emotions.

Yes Busto, now I'm starting to see! Phew, thanks for having the patience to explain things in this detailed way to me. I really am thick in relation to this principle!

I have definitely been implicitly disregarding/ignoring/disrespecting what he has been telling me. And this is probably the nub of why he left in the first place.


He is a grown man. He KNOWS that what he is doing is wrong. That he expreses shame, evasion, deception is evidence of this. Do not excuse, enable or minimize his choices. He is all powerful to choose differently and is more likely to do so if he is starkly confronted with the reality of his choices (per ncl's messages). And, like ncl said, if he doesn't, then he does not deserve you and all the loyalty and love of which you are so clearly capable.

Again, this way of explaining it makes sense to me. He has not been starkly confronted with any reality in relation to his choices so far, because i have been facilitating/pandering/accommodating.

It's all about shame and failure for him, I'm sure,

You are mindreading and projecting here, in part based on what he has spewed to you.

You can reject his behavior without rejecting him and closing the door irrecovably on your relationship. It's up to him to deal with his own shame, and he can if he chooses to -- it is not your responsibility to manage his emotions.

If you enforce a boundary that says something to the effect of, "H, I loved when we were together as a couple and as a family. I am sorry for my share of mistakes in our M. But, I am not ok with having a relationship of any kind with someone who IS ACTIVELY cheating on me and, in doing so, is being disrespectful to me and our kids. I am worth more than that. In light of what is going on, I would like to set up up formal custody arrangements for the kids as well as legal separation of our finances. Etc. etc.

I know it's scary as hell, but it is setting yourself free and taking control of your life back.

Yes, this makes sense absolutely and the voicing of what I might say to him helps enormously. Thanks again for being so willing to help me through this - when I continue to look like I'm not paying attention. I know you know how hard it is, but that's no excuse for sustained stupidity (otherwise known as keeping on doing what doesn't work)