If your H actually participates and continues to get support and help regarding the M "problems"...
Would you consider that he is "working on the M"?
Have you decided what you want, yet?
Yes, I know you are here and want to work on the M and I know you have suggested such, although it still appears you maintain your position of keeping the M intact only until your S graduates...
You continue to have a few choices and none of them are easy:
+ Actively work on yourself to help make the M better + Continue to "survive" the M until your S graduates + Consider that your M actually is already dead and continue on with D
Personally... I think the second choice is the easiest route...
KD, I'm still working on all this, but I did want to get back to you and others and answer a few questions you had.
Of course, I want to actively work on myself, regardless of the state of our M. There are always things I can work on, and I'm sure I'll invent new ones as time goes on. I find it comforting that Advina has been at it for a year and still has things she's working on. I can cut myself a little slack in light of that.
At minimum, I will work to survive the M until S graduates. ScaredSilly accused me of using H, but this is a mutual position. Neither one of us wants to give up any time with S (this should ring home with you, KD) or have to deal with the court system again, like he experienced and I witnessed with his first D. So both of us are on board with at least "getting along" until S is out. Both of us claim to want better.
I have considered that the M is already dead. I don't think it is. I wouldn't be here if I thought it was truly, irrevocably dead.
I appreciate your comment that I come across as a strong woman perfectly capable of enforcing my boundaries. I don't think you would have said that about me 3 months ago. In fact, I believe you were one of several in an older thread that chastised me for negotiating my boundaries on some things. In any case, to me that means progress.
Accuray, keeping a land grab at bay is a serious concern of mine, but I hope to be up for the challenge. How to look at H in a positive light in that instance is the hard part for me.
KD, you asked, "If your H stopped falling asleep during movies (and therefore did not snore) and he stopped eating off your plate... Would you suddenly love him to the end of the earth...? I kinda don't think so..." You're right. That would not cause me to love him to the end of the earth. What it would do is remove the thorns from the rose so that I could feel safe enough to get near and smell the fragrance and appreciate its beauty.
I will add that I'm not trying to change my H, but I AM hoping that he changes. As Accuray referenced from other sources, I don't believe a healthy M can be derived or sustained long-term when only one party is contributing, or the R balance is skewed, regardless of how saintly that one person is. That sort of R seems a bit abusive and co-dependent.
As for providing H's perspective, all I can suggest is that you can scan the other two sites I mentioned and see if you can figure his out. I don't know if he has posted yet, or if he will. He has the information.
As an update on the state of things, H and I spoke a bit this weekend, since S is away on camp. It wasn't terribly encouraging for me, a lot of stuff I already knew but H arrived at during the course of the convo. He claimed it was enlightening, claimed he didn't like that about himself and could see how it fostered the conflict in our M, claimed he would address the issues if I would just reengage and give him a chance. I'm trying to have a better attitude about this rather than, "Another empty promise, same-old same-old." I did agree to go for a walk with him. I did not jump in bed and have sex with him.
Also, I did manage to intercept a topic before it went bad. One of the things H has an issue with is accepting the word "no" from me. If it fits in his head, it should fit in mine, so he picks and badgers until I agree. The topic was about my summer classes. I'm taking an online P.E. course. I know, how does one do that, right? Well it's three P.E. credits, the class is health and fitness. I chose it because I can't manage to do 3 separate one-credit-hour classes that require me to be at school 5 days/week for one hour, regardless of how fun it would be to play volleyball, because I can get my fun elsewhere/elsehow. Well H kept telling me I need to do that, it would be fun, I need to get out, etc. I looked at him and just calmly stated that it was time for him to drop it, that I gave him my answer and he needed to accept it. It ended nicely at least, and he somewhat recognized what he was doing. Afterall, it didn't affect him in any way, so I don't know why he was arguing.
Anyway, I'm still listening, and I am still trying...
Afterall, it didn't affect him in any way, so I don't know why he was arguing.
Men feel valuable if they can help you to solve problems. If we put forth what we believe is a great solution and you reject it for one which is (in our view) less optimal, we're going to argue with you about it. Even though, to your point, it doesn't impact us either way. I catch myself doing this too. You handled it the right way, "I've decided, let it go". If he's weak he'll make a smarmy comment and then drop it. If he's strong, he'll accept that as the last word and move on.
Accuray
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
Accuray, any suggestions on how to handle it when it DOES affect him, albeit indirectly? (ie. me not doing something with him that he wants me to do but he still gets to do it himself, like boating with friends.)
CV, I've read your response. I'm quite busy ATM so I will have to come back to your post as soon as I can.
In the mean time, you are on the right track as you continue to work on you... it has more benefits than just for you.
That lightly touches on the DB idea that changing ourselves changes the R and to that end, changes by one person means that the other spouse simply can not stay in the M and NOT contribute...
As I mentioned I'm just reading "His Needs Her Needs" and it says that "Recreational Companionship" is a top 2 emotional need for men. Therefore, he's probably inviting you boating for that reason, that he'll feel very good for having you along.
Now if you know you're not going to enjoy it and you're going to be miserable, then I would NOT go, but one suggestion would be to offer up something else you can do together that he can look forward to. i.e. "I'm going to pass on boating Saturday -- I really don't like getting wet. How about on Sunday we go for a (bike ride, hike, walk around town, walk on the beach) etc."
You've said in the past that he tends to sit in silence when you're together and looking to have a conversation. One other stereotypical male "trick" is to get him involved in an activity first. Once he's doing the activity, he may start talking. That's why walks can be good. You may find if you go for a walk he'll start opening up.
Accuray
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
Recreational companionship is his number one LL per the exercises we did. I get that. Though I can accommodate his needs somewhat, frankly I'm a little sick of boating and really don't have much interest anymore, especially in light of the work and expense involved. He has never been party to doing MY interests with me (floating, biking, gardening, etc.) If I suggest alternatives that he could do with me, he continues to pitch why boating is a much better activity and why my other suggestions are flawed. My best approach lately has been to do just a little boating with him (twice a year maybe) and then he's welcome to pursue more on his own while I pursue my interests alone. He complains that my pursuing my interests separately is wrong, because friend's W is coming boating and that's what couples do.
How do I approach this in a DB methodology? (And not be accused of trying to change him?)
I will also throw in, H did suggest a walk on Sunday, or at least I think he did but maybe not (complicated.) We went and H wore loafers and blistered his toes. I noticed and asked before we got far but he said they would be fine. He canceled his racquetball plans on Monday because his feet hurt, wore bandages on his toes all day, limped around in pain. It makes me feel bad. I know I'm not responsible for picking his shoes, but it still bothers me. Like when someone invites someone else to do something and that person gets seriously hurt or killed, the person still feels bad even though they aren't directly responsible for the other person's injury or death.
It taints the enjoyment of the experience. I think that's normal.
How do I bypass that feeling without feeling heartless instead in order to want to go for a walk with him again? Blistered toes aren't a life-threatening injury, but neither is walking together a life-sustaining activity. Asking him to wear athletic shoes next time would be trying to change *him*. How do I change me so that it doesn't bother me?
It makes me feel bad. ... How do I change me so that it doesn't bother me?
Remember that it's only our own train of thoughts that MAKE us feel anything.
Find a train that leads in a different direction and repeat it over and over until you start to believe it.
"H is allowed to make his own choices and mistakes. I'd make different ones but that's okay. I can still enjoy a shared activity even if H makes some choices that I wouldn't. It's his feet. He gets to figure it out." Or some such. Whatever it takes.
It may be normal to be bothered about this kind of thing, but the Pia Mellody tape running in my head reminds me that it's not a functional path forward. I'm quite certain that if I could eliminate all the things that I really have no business being bothered about then I'd have a much shorter list to work on.
Sometimes it's hard to figure out where the lines really ought to be drawn. If you imagine asking H to wear different shoes because...? Because you are uncomfortable if his feet hurt? When you have to explain the details it can make it clearer who the problem really belongs to.
What can you do to give yourself some mantras that lead you in the direction you want to be going?
