Time for LBH to move home? WAW can do the walking.

[AlwaysTrying]

My last thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2246254&page=10

In short to anyone unfamiliar with my sitch, I'm leaning toward moving back in. See the thread for details.

Sandi, you've picked on my writing a few times. Maybe I use more or different words than you do, but I don't think I'm smarter than you. I'm not a Ph.D. I'm a high-school dropout, and that's the truth.

Reasons for moving back in:
- I want 50/50 custody of the kids. It does not seem I can do anything to stop the divorce, but I can get time with my kids. That means a lot to me. If I stay out, I have less chance of that - that's what my lawyer says.
- I'll be happier. I like my house. I like my garden not being full of weeds. I like seeing my kids more often.
- I will be saving money up until the point W moves out and I take on the full bill for the mortgage.
- I won't feel torn. I will feel like I'm taking care of myself and my relationship with the kids.
- My position will be clear and unambiguous.
- Maybe, maybe, maybe, I will be more respectable and eventually WAW's hate might be overcome by that. I know you say not, sandi.
- I'm not out for revenge, but W can see what it is like to face a partner with a hardened heart.
- Even though my heart has hardened a little, I can still show her compassion in everything else I do. I'll stay out of her hair, out of her way, and out of her business as much as possible.
- For the first time in a while, I can set my own boundary.

Reasons for not moving back:
- It will create anger, resentment, and distrust in my W. This may never heal or might take a long time.
- W will be unhappy.
- W may throw a tantrum.
- Kids might be in an unpleasant environment until W moves out.


If I just give in to whatever child custody arrangement my wife wants, of course this will all be easier, but I will also regret it forever. If at some point into this it looks like the kids would be better off with another arrangement, I can work it out with W. If I give her what she wants and later regret it, there is no getting them back.

"going there to be Mr. Mom" - sandi
It sounds like 50/50 custody or father as primary parent is something you're against. If you don't see that as something worth having (or fighting for), I can see why you are flat against me coming back. What is to gain except for some pointless gender role reversal?

The truth is, I have a hard time seeing W as maternal while she is doing this to my family. I don't accept her claim on my kids.

I don't want to be Mr. Mom. I'm as career-focused as anyone. I like what I do for a living and it would really bring me down if I couldn't do it any more. But I want it all. I want to come home from work and help with homework, take a bike ride with the kids, and read them a story.

And I see how this life choice hasn't left me with a whole lot of extra time for other hobbies and such, but I like it, and it's only for 20 years or so. In part, I can see that it's overcompensating for the neglect my parents showered on me, but it is who I am. I'm not Mr. Mom the male homemaker. I'm the male version of do-it-all Super Mom. I'm Super Dad.

Don't think that means that I think that I'm "all that". I know "super dad/mom" has negative connotations, just the way that "nice guy" does. But it is who I am.


"Figure yourf@ckingself out." - Truegritter

I feel like I have. No more compromise. No more half-measure. I don't feel set against myself.


I'm trying to see this from the other side, but every time I think about it, I feel more like moving home and, frankly, calmer.

I'm not trying to be a jerk. I just don't see a very good reason to play this part of the WAW's game any longer. Making the house toxic for the kids is something I will avoid as much as possible, and something the WAW can choose to do as well.

[AlwaysTrying]

There is one thing that you could do that might shed more light on your stitch, however, and that is to describe how you and your wife are different and how the two of you are alike (at least before things started falling apart).

Similar:
- My wife and I are both "brains", as some people might say. I took a statistics course for fun - she was the Teacher's Assistant. I had never known a woman with those kind of smarts before I met her. I'm sure there are tons, I just don't run into them often.
- My wife and I can talk about anything for hours. At one of our last MC sessions before she filed D, she brought up how much she liked just talking to me.
- My wife and I are both immersed in geek culture. Even though our marriage is all but gone, we still end up watching Big Bang together when our friends come over. Watching all 7 seasons of Buffy with D15 a coupole of years ago was a family event. We play board games, card games, etc., and this is one of the ways we still have contact. When we went for a weekend vacation, we'd always take boggle and end up playing that for a couple hours - we'd get pretty competitive.
- We both care a lot about parenting and put a lot of energy into our kids. "Bedtime" is an event for us. It usually takes about an hour and it usually involves at least 2 or 3 stories, singing, and playing around for the brush teeth/pajamas part of the process.
- Liberal but flexible political views. We both usually vote democrat, but she has dabbled with objectivism, I've dabbled with libertarianism. Basically fiscally conservative but socially liberal, both of us. But as we've gotten older, we've both become more open to "socialist" programs like national health care.
- We both love nature. She took a course called "Teaching Science Outdoors" one summer when she was finishing up her Master's degree that was one of her favorite classes ever. We take the kids to parks, hikes, and such to enjoy nature.
- We both like sex a lot - when she wants it. During and after one pregnancy, we didn't have sex of any kind for 18 months. Insane! Later, she changed her birth control and everything was unleashed.
- We both entered into a little bubble when we were together. We had friends that we loved a lot, but we rarely saw any of them because they lived so far away. We just never established strong friendships with people who lived closer to us. We don't really like being around people who aren't a lot like us, though we've both opened up a lot as we've aged. Still, married with kids, our little unit is where all of our attention went, and it seemed like it was all that we needed.

Different:
- She is a planner, and I like things spur-of-the moment. I'll start an activity to have fun without too much concern if it will work out in the end. They often do. I can take a drive in no particular direction just to see what is out there. Usually there is a pay-off - a unique restaurant or store or unexpected sight. W needs a destination first.
- She budgets. I spend money less wisely and hope it all works out in the end. For several years, our salaries were rising so quickly, I figured if we needed more money, we'd just make more. We *wasted* so much money then. Eating out nearly every night. But we didn't go into debt - we just didn't save anything.
- Her first career is being in school. She's changed her career many times, but keeps going back to school. She went to Stuyvesant High School with NY's smartest kids, which is a Big Deal. She's gotten scholarships from big schools, and got a 4.0 from NYU. I dropped out of high school. It seemed like a pointless excercise to me. I hated it. I'd learn all the material, ace the tests, but I skipped a lot and just didn't do a lot of the homework, so I usually averaged about a 70%.
- She craves stability, predictability, and structure. I want flexibility and adventure.
- Her parents are still married. She had a stable childhood with all kinds of parental nuturing and support. My mom was married 6 times, each time to the wrong guy. Growing up with those step dads was horrible. One or maybe two of them sexually molested my sisters. My dad was always way off on the sidelines of my life. I can see that he tries or has tried and it's me that is really aloof now.
- then again - W and I both struggle from low self esteem. I'm a "nice guy", right? That stems from shame and devaluation I carry from childhood (and lack of a good male role model). I don't know what made her that way.
- I acknowledge my psychological abnormalities, and she is in denial about hers. She's got a temper, anxiety, occasional depression, snaps and gets really mean to her own family.
- I would do almost anything to save our marriage. She doesn't want it any more.

I know the issues that pushed us apart bascially break down to this. She didn't feel that I was caring for my bipolar as well as I should have been. I kept her out of it because I didn't like her meddling. (I said something like "I don't want you to change who I am" near the end, and those words changed something inside her. I feel like a fool now. The things she wanted to change were not "me", but how I was taking care of myself and the rest of the family.) She didn't feel secure that I wouldn't lose my job or all of my money and we'd end up bankrupt - again.

She actually wrote this to me at one point:

- Over the years, you have consistently and systematically lied to me about the severity of you bipolar disorder, and have not let me support you when you needed it. You say you have changed but I just don't want to be married to someone who would do this. I'm tired of living with the constant insecurity

- Over the years, you have lied and mislead me about your work -- when you were working, when you weren't, how much money you were bringing in, etc. You have kept me in the dark about you business financials. I just don't wan to be married to someone who would do this.

- Your boundary/personality issues have made it it exceedingly difficult to just be me. I have pushed aside my true feelings for years. I got to a point where I doubted myself and my instincts, and then eventually to a point where I just didn't care any more. As I started to separated from you, I realized just how far I'd gone. I'm concerned about this happening again. I can't live my life without feelings.

- You overspend and are generally unreliable. I have come to despise the word 'promise' because typically when you promise something, that's a pretty good indications that it will not actually happen. You lie to my face. I ask you for something and you know that you have no intention of doing it, but look at me and say 'ok.' And you justify this to yourself by thinking: well, I didn't tell her when I'd do it, I'll get to it eventually, or thinking: I'll do this other thing that will be Even Better.

- I do feel that us getting married was a mistake. That doesn't mean that there aren't great things that came of it, but it was a mistake and now I'm trying to correct that mistake.

This was in response to something I wrote to her about my reasons for believing that she did at some level want to work things out. This was something like 7 months ago.

[AlwaysTrying]

So I have a counseling session with W today at 4. I'm going to try to keep my mouth shut.

I don't know what will happen. I expect no change on her part. I will probably work out a plan to move back into the house tomorrow.

I want to say, "Ever since you kicked your emotional affair into high gear in July, you have had no time to help our marriage or our family. I don't have any more patience. I'm not going to enable you any more."

I have been re-reading my thread at marriagebuilders.com from September of last year, immediately after she filed D. I wish I had come to DB in July when it would have helped the most - before she filed. The MB people really focus on the affair and snooping to uncover and eventually expose the affair as a first step to recovery.


edited by dbmod to add note: This is NOT DB advice, exposing the affair may well end your marriage. Please read Michele's thread at the top of the Infidelity forum.

[AlwaysTrying]

This last weekend was fantastic. W was in FLA for a wedding, so I was at the house with the kids Thu, Fri, Sat, and Sun. It felt so good. I slept like a baby.

Sunday night, back in my apartment, away from the kids, I was immediately thrown into a downer of a mood. Hard to sleep. Blah.

When W came home, she was nice mostly. She came home just in time to do bedtime with the kids. I was cleaning up from dinner and asked her if she wanted me to make her a plate (a day in the airport usually leaves me hungry). She was unable to make eye contact with me when she said "no thanks, but please make me a lunch for tomorrow."

Later on, though, she was able to look at me just fine. A friend sent her some amazing (and expensive) chocolates for her birthday. She offered some to me. I really didn't expect that.

After our friends left the house, I was almost ready to go, and I said that I might stop by the house in the morning to mow the lawn. She said, "And they you're going to move back in, right?". I said I don't know. We can talk about it in session today.

Being with the kids was great. I know that if I do D, if I do get to keep the kids for 3 or 4 days at a time on a regular basis, I'll still be missing them terribly the other half of the week.

How did I get here? Why can't I turn this train around? Where the (*&^ is the woman I married? Who is this !@# %$%$32 #$@%!@$ woman I see now?

[AlwaysTrying]

OH, GOD, I can't read these old threads of mine any more. They are so painful.

I had hopes that all amounted to nothing. I made mistakes. I was so desperate to fix our marriage that I would give up anything. I think that was never the right idea.

I never had to give up anything - I just had to give her space. I had to stick up for myself and act like a person with confidence and self-respect.


It might really be too late for my marriage. I don't think I've ever written that before. This was her choice that she made 10 months ago. I've done nothing but delay it without bringing us one inch closer.

I could really use a pep talk. :-/

[scaredsilly]

"I never had to give up anything - I just had to give her space. I had to stick up for myself and act like a person with confidence and self-respect."

you wrote this so you're getting what you need to do. that's a big part of what you're going through so i think you're doing really well. it just takes so much time and it's hard to wait.

[2thepoint]

I could really use a pep talk.

So what do you want, a pat on the back or a kick is the a$$? There are plenty of posters on the boards that are willing and able to blow sunshine up your backside. If that is what you want, then fine. You'll feel good about yourself for awhile until your world comes crashing down around you again. Then what?

You've been getting great perspective and advice from several people and you seem hell bent on ignoring what others are suggesting you consider before making the harsh decisions that you are contemplating. Of course this is always your choice to make. But you must know that decisions have consequences and ones made from an emotional place, usually aren't the best ones to make.

Listen, I can totally sympathize with the situation you are in. Mine is in many ways very similar to yours. So, I get what you are trying to do and your motivations for do it. But the problem that I see is that you still do not understand what it is that you must do if you ever hope to reconcile with your W. Your current path is not going to do that for you, IMO.

I've had people ask me on many occasions to think about whether or not an action I am considering is going to hurt or harm my chances at a reconciliation. And when I stop and pause long enough to consider both sides of the equation, really think things through, my ultimate decision is usually better informed and likely the best one for me.

So, I would like to ask you to think about what you have done in the past month or two that would give your W reason to reconsider her current position on the M. And as you think about that, be sure you are looking at it from your W's perspective, not yours.

Then think about what you could do that would make you a better, more attractive, long-term option to your W or any woman for that matter.

Personally I think you still have a lot of personal work to do. If you dive back in to your R with your W before completing your work on YOU, then I see a train wreck in your future.

I'm sorry that this is not the pep talk you were probably hoping for. I wish you well in whatever decision you ultimately make.

[AlwaysTrying]

I'll take a kick in the ass.

Counseling... happened. W didn't stay for the whole thing. I was cold at first and softened as she started to talk more. C kept trying to get me to say, "I want another chance." I feel like I've done nothing but say that for months and months. I feel like I've never had "The Chance".

One thing became clear - whatever second thoughts she had been harboring became overshadowed by what happened between my old friend and D15. She blames me for allowing her to live with him. W actually set it up!!! She called him and said it was a good idea for her to have a stable family environment. D15 decided to set W and I down in July 2011 to say she wanted to move back in with us, and W had to reply "Your dad and I are separating."

The friend has been a mostly good friend to me, but now I call him DeadToMe because of the line he crossed with my daughter. Well, back when W, Dead, our other best friend, and I lived together when we were all about 21 we all had this giant stupid love triangle going. W liked the attention. Things went off the rails one night with Dead and W when, while she was sleeping in his bed, he initiated unwanted sexual intercourse.

W and I didn't talk to Dead for 8 years. Dead crept back into my life and we became friends again. Sandi.... hi. I know you're going to dislike me more than usual for this, but I didn't think that what Dead did was so bad I should never talk to him again. W's and Dead's stories of what happened that night changed over time, but the story I got back in 1999 just wasn't so bad it couldn't be forgiven in time. W let me believe that she forgave him, and she did tell him as much.

Now after the revelation that Dead made a pass at D15, W says she does not think she can ever forgive me. She doesn't *have* to forgive me, she said.

She cried and carried on for a while. I didn't know how to respond.


If this is the new central issue of our breakup... I don't know what it will take.


My C says she still thinks it would be a good idea to tell her that I love her and that I'd like another chance. I told C that seems pointless because I've said that so many times in so many ways.

I'm thinking about calling W tonight and telling her that I didn't know the reason it was so hard for her to be around me was because of this. And then what? Ask if there are ways I can make this better as I prepare to move back into the house? Or say, just kidding, I'm not moving back now, but I might at any later point if I feel like it?

You all probably think I'm mentally disabled. I am lost. I am rudderless.


Knowing I am going to move home, fight for my kids, and take care of myself makes me feel good. I'm having trouble picturing my alternative.

[MrBond]

I don't get it. If your W set it up why was she blaming you?

[AlwaysTrying]

Yes, W did set up for D15 to live with Dead and encouraged that relationship. And she blames me for it.

We had a confrontation tonight that was stupid to have gotten into. But W said that she shouldn't have been put in that position - to be sending her SD to her husband's friend when the friend had raped her (W).

I can't function any more with this indecision. I feel awful inside right now. There is so much pain going around. I want to sleep for a week.