Letting people live their lives and GALing...

[WenikiTiki]

I find the image I project to be too friendly and nice. I get hit on all the time, and it is just me being me. Helpful, paying too much attention to everyone elses needs me.

The 26 year old I told you all about who decided he liked me enough to want a date...... I had noticed he collected and wore funny socks. So when I was cleaning out drawers I brough him a few pair at the event we attend monthly.

He later told me that I was "hitting" on him by doing that. I was mystified. But it has made me look closer at how I'm coming across, verses what I'm thinking in my pointy little head.

(I was thinking WOW I could make this guy happy with these socks and they won't end up in a landfill....)

Hey AntoniaB! Hang in there. I bet you will find Mr. Right right under your nose. Anyone as cool as you is bound to attract the right sort of guy to be the yin to your yang.

Aloha,

Wendy

[~ kd ~]

He later told me that I was "hitting" on him by doing that. I was mystified. But it has made me look closer at how I'm coming across, verses what I'm thinking in my pointy little head.

Yup... DBing the dating scene... lol...

In the same way that we figured out how we contributed to the break down of our Ms and what we might do differently so we come across in a more effective and positive way and hopefully save our Ms... (for those who are still on that path... )

[AntoniaB]

I'm going to change the subject to something that has been eating at me...and I notice that I originally named my thread "letting people live their lives..."

I have made a big discovery in the past few weeks, and it is making me stuck in a way and I have to unstick myself.

I believe that my friends and family--that is my friends who knew me before the bomb--have "taken over" in many ways for my XH. They haven't taken over for the physical needs--I am self-sufficient and live alone and I'm fine with everything in that regard. But emotionally, they have all sort of become these coddling caretakers, and it's really starting to stifle me something fierce. I feel like I am still battling a form of codependency--an emotional codependency--and it's because they have become the confidants and worrywarts.

Example: When married, if I was anxious about something, I'd vocalize this to my XH. Then he'd tell me to not do it or back out of it. He'd say that if it causes me stress, to just not do it, or he'd not say that, but he'd encourage me to get out of it by throwing out a lot of "well, what if THIS happens" type statements.

The same thing happens now with friends and family. Anything I express the least bit of hesitancy or anxiety about, people are trying to talk me out of what I've said I would do or want to do, or they are offering all sorts of scary "what if" scenarios that are really meant to make me back out of the thing.

I've also had a problem my whole life with "what if" scenarios and future projections. Everyone knows this about me. But they just keep reinforcing this to me. The guy I have been seeing, who I've had a disagreement with, but who has patched things up with me, well he has decided to move very close by. This is entirely out of my control. I never had one second of input on his decision. I knew he was looking at places. One day he called to say he was looking at a place very close to me. I said "that's nice." Then a few days later he asked if I'd look at it with him. I did. I said nothing other than to agree that it was a nicely kept place. He was ecstatic, said it was what he wanted, and told the realtor. After we left the house, I said to him, "Are you sure you want to live that close to me?" He said "sure, neighbor, this is the best house that I've looked at and I'll be closer to work than I ever was. It's perfect."

2 weeks went by, I said no more about it. He told me today he signed the lease.

I can guarantee this has nothing to do with me. I am sure he is happy to know he has a friend nearby, but we have just had some dates over a two month period. We aren't even "in a relationship" and still really just getting to know one another.

But my friends and family are freaking out over this. The what if scenarios are out of control. "What if he hurts you in some way and then you can't feel you can live in your house in that town, that town is YOUR SPACE, it's YOUR SANCTUARY, and now HE is there..."

I repeat, I did nothing at all to interfere or encourage his moving. He was planning to move here BEFORE we were seeing each other. He just finally made it happen now. Just chance.

This is just one of many examples. But it's like, really getting to me. I feel like every move I make or don't make, there are a ton of voices in my head, the voices of my friends and family, and yes they are saying these things out of concern, but it really is tying me in knots. I never get angry or react. Sometimes I just say look please stop the what ifs. I don't want to be ungrateful for the help.

But this kind of thing just enables my old codependency and anxiety. It makes me obsess about things. It makes me think if I do something that a bunch of people "expressed concern" about my doing, and it goes wrong, I'll have to "answer" to them for it, so I end up trying to do what they want and listen to what they say and discount my own voice.

I don't know where my voice begins and "their" voices end. I'm beyond confused.

I feel almost like I have to shut myself off from telling anyone anything anymore that I feel anxious about or have worry about. I feel like I will have to act like everything is perfect all the time and that I have no inner struggles, because the minute I voice one, their voices start.

The thing is that I've tried this before, not confiding in them. Guess what? Then I get the whole "uh oh she is withdrawing, she is DEPRESSED!!!!"

And that's not it at all.

I just can't stand that when the bomb dropped, I had a very normal reaction to it. Just like all of us did. We went through something beyond horrific. And I've worked so hard to get myself together and I have. It doesn't mean I don't have bad days, but gosh I really know how to negotiate them and I get myself together fast. But it's never enough. These people always see me as "a vase about to shatter." My sister said that about me...that I was a vase that shattered and was held together with glue and threatening to shatter any minute again."

And I told her more than once that that vase is gone and I'm a whole new vase and she doesn't believe me. I actually thought that my putting my own cat down a few weeks ago entirely alone would make people see that I could handle my own life, but it made no difference. They still coddle me.

It makes me think that XH isn't the only one who made me a codependent.

But what advice does anyone have? I feel like I need to withdraw from people because I want to know what my own thoughts and decisions are and not be influenced by theirs so much. I don't seem to be capable of listening to them go on and on and not then internalize it, so maybe I should find a way not to listen, which might mean not discussing anything personal at all.

[WenikiTiki]

I have been thinking about a similar topic, running our lives by committee. (Or by internet consensus) I feel overwhelmed sometimes by all the different trains of thought in my head. I think it is Grand Central in there sometimes.

So we have to work on how to figure out which is the right train to be on. I don't think not talking to people is the answer. But maybe giving more weight to the right things (finding the right train to be on) is the answer.

You wrote something on another thread about feeling like your new friends are different with you than your old friends. Maybe it is as hard for our old friends to see the new us as it is for our (ex)spouses.

I am looking forward to seeing what others have to say about this!

[seeking answers]

Antonia,

It sounds as if you were raised to be co-dependent. You may have chosen your XH because it was more of the same and it was familiar.

BD seems to make the LBS evaluate, grow and change because the way we were didn't work out too well for many of us. It happens to us much faster than it does for the MLCer. We are light years ahead of them as far as our growth. That is why when we are able to step back from the initial pain of BD our rose colored glasses start to fade and we can be honest with our selves.

I've seen tremendous growth in you and when you finally start to trust it, your actions will speak louder than your words. You will go ahead and act on your decisions without discussing them first and if something doesn't work out, you'll own it without excuses.

[AntoniaB]

I like that phrase living our lives by committee. I will remember that. It's a good way to describe it. I also agree on figuring out where to put the weight as opposed to all or nothing (it has been pointed out to me by more than one person that I'm an all or nothing thinker which doens't work either).

I think my old friends and family sometimes do not know what to make of me when I am fully my new self around them. I hear myself say things like 'whatever.' 'It'll work out.' 'I'm not worried about it.' 'Everything happens for a reason.'

Old friends and family act incredulous. New friends compliment me for being so "evolved" and so having my act together.

The thing is if I'm codependent on old friends and family, probably they are on me, and they aren't feeling things are right either if they are not coddling/nurturin/worrying. New friends and I just don't have that relationship.

I guess it's like you say, Seeking, that I have to do more actions to prove that I'm really changed a lot and still trying to go in a very different direction. I also like what you say about trusting myself; I bet I am leading people into coddling by having lack of trust in MYSELF and my decisions that I'm somehow expressing without realizing I'm expressing it.

Thanks, this has been really helpful :-)

[beatrice]

The thing is if I'm codependent on old friends and family, probably they are on me, and they aren't feeling things are right either if they are not coddling/nurturin/worrying. New friends and I just don't have that relationship.

I guess it's like you say, Seeking, that I have to do more actions to prove that I'm really changed a lot and still trying to go in a very different direction. I also like what you say about trusting myself; I bet I am leading people into coddling by having lack of trust in MYSELF and my decisions that I'm somehow expressing without realizing I'm expressing it.

I heard relationships that are co-dependent described as A-frame. Both lean on each other. If you 'straighten up' - i.e. become non-co-dependent, they have nothing to lean against from their side. So they do not like it. You no longer 'need' them in teh way you did, but they are trying to impose that need on you so you don't disturb the A-frame.

I am learning to do simple electricity jobs. My xh always used to do the non-professional electrical work around the house, and it is so liberating to be able to tackle them [and know what you can't!]. In a recent brief exchange I let him know I was doing this and the result is total silence!!

[AntoniaB]

You go, beatrice!!! I have a girlfriend going through the last bits of her divorce and she wrote with glee on the alt yesterday about hooking up her tv and hd and a roku player and other things all on her own. She was ecstatic as her departing ex called her "stupid" and "lazy" on the way out the door. She looked at youtube videos and read diagrams till she figured it all out!

[BeingMe]

Thank goodness for YouTube. I love that you can have mini lessons to figure things out.

[AntoniaB]

Well I haven't had a reason to post in ages, but I've got one now. This is going to seem like it's not relevant to DBing or whatever because it's not about my ex; it's about the guy I've been seeing for several months. But it is relevant in that I saw myself in a pattern and finally broke it, but I still have work to do and guess I want some advice. So please bear with me as I explain.

First of all, I've seen this guy since late Feb./early March. I met him in December. We've gotten together at my house mostly for dinner out or in and then movies and conversation and just hanging out. We have had a sexual relationship from pretty early on. I had an instant chemistry with him and I knew it would be tough to sleep with someone having only slept with my XH for 23 years, but I felt an instant trust with this guy. It was a wonderful experience and I have zero regrets. We talked at length beforehand about the fact that we were not "in love" but did have affection and attraction. I knew that going in and I chose what I wanted. Like I said, no regrets about that.

From the getgo, he told me that his "pattern" he was trying to break was that he often would have a physical relationship but not be able to connect emotionally. He wanted to change this in himself. He said he was working to change it but could not make any promises to me about what we could "become." In my head, unbeknownst to him, I said to myself, "Antonia, YOU can be the woman who breaks through his shell." He is an abuse survivor and told me that was probably a major contributing factor in his inability to get close to people. I listened, but yet, I thought I could be "the one."

So soon after the physical relationship begins, he backs off a bit. We discuss how we really want to build a friendship too. He gets close to me to the point where he makes the decision to move to my area. He had planned to do it in a year but made the decision much earlier. He looked at a few places and chose to move in one mile from me, right on my road. It was pure chance. This place had never been rented before and he loved it and it is very close to his workplace. I said several times do you really want to live that close to me? What if we have a falling out or something? He just said that would never happen and he really wanted the house.

He moved in 2 weeks ago. It is clear that my being here has really helped him emotionally. He left family and friends to make this move. It's his first house alone ever (he's divorced, no kids, 4 years post-divorce). It was a big step for him. Since the move he's spent a lot more time with me. Some of it is romantic/sexual, the other half of it is just like friends only. He is very "hot-cold." This has always concerned me as I don't know where I "stand." But I was able to put up with it when he lived an hour away and I only saw him one day of the week and that day he was usually "hot."

After 2 weeks of him living here I am closer to him than ever and have developed real feelings for him. I don't think I'm in love with him but I do feel love towards him. I tried to ignore this as long as I could but I felt like I needed to tell him because I feel like he's not in the same place as me.

This is where the connection with my past comes in. I realized that with my XH that at the 10 or so year mark he and I held the marriage together via physical intimacy. We were at odds emotionally and spiritually and yet we ignored it. I CHOSE to have a relationship that was suffering because "at least I had the physical part." It was "better than nothing."

It has been nagging at me for awhile now that I was doing the same thing with this guy. Settling for the physical because it was better than being alone. Mind you, he's not a love em and leave em type. He and I go on dates and he's very thoughtful and caring and treats me with a lot of respect. He treats me on some days like we are a couple long-term. But it's not consistent. And no one knows about me, either. To everyone in his life, I'm his "friend."

But anyway, I decided I needed to come clean. Last night I said I have feelings for you beyond friendship, and as hard as it is to walk away from "a sure thing" physically with someone who makes me feel really good (better than my XH could), I need to do what scares me and walk away if you don't feel the same as me.

Do you feel the same as me?

He says sometimes he does and sometimes he doesn't. Then he tells me WHY.

He is an abuse survivor, sexual abuse. But he was raped as a child AND at 17 years old. When he told me about the time at 17, I could tell that it is still very fresh a wound in him (he's nearly 40). He went through therapy years ago and figures that there is nothing more he can do. He follows Buddhism to detach from it all, but he admits it has affected his ability to love. He says he can't love anyone. He can care for people deeply and be friends with them, but he feels he can't love. He feels he can't be connected deeply emotionally because he is so damaged. And what makes this even worse is that he is sexually confused. He had one relationship with a male years ago. He said he doesn't know now if he is bisexual or not. He says he only ever felt "safe" when he was in the relationship with the man. But he clearly favors women. Despite that, he feels confused about his sexuality.

He told me once before that every time a relationship of his with a woman got to this point, where she wanted a deeper connection than he could give, and when he confided in her the reasons for his lack of intimacy, she would walk away and never have anything to do with him again. Of course when he said this originally, I said that wasn't me. That I'd rise above it and value the friendship more.

So this is where I am now. I do value his friendship. He is a good person. He works hard and is very ambitious and creative. He is incredibly supportive of me and my individuality. He supports me creatively and with my job and interests in a way my XH never did. He is not jealous of me and cares about my accomplishments. He constantly reinforces for me all the good changes I've made to become more independent and self-reliant. He is a good person to have in my life.

I knew going in that he might never feel the same as I did about us. And I knowingly stepped out on the limb with the hope I could make him open up to me. I didn't realize the problems from his past were as bad as they are. I just didn't know. I think he needs to get back into therapy, frankly, but he won't do it if he's not ready.

Is my heart broken? Kind of. But I also kind of broke it myself getting involved with someone who said at the outset that he probably couldn't meet me halfway. I'm not really angry at myself because I think there are tons of lessons I need to learn in this mess.

But what complicates it all so much is that my heart breaks FOR HIM. I didn't know what demons he was facing. All I could think when he told me everything was that my trauma pales in comparison to his. I mean maybe it doesn't--but I feel much more past my trauma in a shorter time frame by far than him. He's got real fears. His brother tried to drown him in the bathtub. Now I know why he freaked out when we went swimming in the ocean the other day.

And I guess what I want to know is what do I do. I don't want to abandon him just because he doesn't want me as a girlfriend. I can't hold it against him if he doesn't feel the same for me as I do for him. It would be very easy to just cut him out of my life and never talk to him again. But I don't feel like that's the right thing to do to another person.

I wish I could help him with his confusion but I know I can't. All I can do is recommend a really good psychiatrist and hope that he decides to get back into therapy and be supportive.

But I spoke to my mom and best friend about this and their immediate reaction was to all but walk away from him on the grounds that "I'm too freshly wounded to help someone else." They are deeply concerned that I am putting him before me.

What I told him was that our physical relationship was over. And the staying over at one another's houses is over. Is it reasonable to think that I can go backwards to just thinking of him as a friend with cutting that out of our lives?

I want to be true to my needs but I also want to be a good friend. This guy is NOT my XH because he's much more proactive about trying to handle things and trying to grow as a person. And I guess I feel like maybe I can be of some help or support to him if I can just accept that what I think I want from him is not what he can give and not hold that against him, but love him unconditionally.

Can I walk this line of being good to myself and compassionate to a person who has been supportive of my changes?

Or do I listen to my mom and friend and cut him out of my life because the effort will drain me?

I keep wondering why, why did I have this chance meeting with someone only to fall for him and find that he's not just unavailable but he's also so damaged. Was the whole point to teach me that again I can't always get what I want and I have to learn to live with what I can have and accept it?

I have made an appt with my psychiatrist and therapist for next week to get their feedback but anything any of you can say will be appreciated.

I think the difficulty for me is that I really wanted this guy to be "the one number two", the person I was meant to be with after my XH, but clearly it's not turning out that way, and while I'm glad I broke my first pattern of allowing sex without connection to substitute for a full relationship, I don't want to repeat other patterns of my past, and one of them is sacrificing myself for someone else. I need to know how to walk the line where I don't sacrifice myself but I treat someone I care about with compassion and respect.