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#2244198 - 05/10/12 10:02 AM Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2
Crimson Offline
Member

Registered: 11/16/11
Posts: 1286

Went out after work with a friend of mine last night. I try to GAL and keep busy when I don't have my son - it keep from focusing on "things" too much.

So it appears that Monday we have our initial settlement conference with L's and a mediator. Basically, they pick apart everything and say how much of everything financially and custody-wise she gets. It's going to be rough. We have never really had to face off in this process at all. It is going to be tough for me looking at my w in that context....very tough, and I am not looking forward to it at all. Already I am anxious about matters and that is just making it a bit worse.

Also, and I don't know if this is a blessing or a curse, but our telephonic hearing got moved to mid-June. More time, but at the same time - it's just drawing out.

I feel exhausted, incredibly confused based on what I hear and her actions - and just kind of sad on and off a lot. I am doing my best to distance myself, but it is hard when I start missing my son.

Trying to find peace, patience and acceptance.

Crimson

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#2244205 - 05/10/12 10:22 AM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: Crimson]
2thepoint Offline
Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1692
Crimson - it sounds like you need to change your perspective some. When you have a few free minutes, google the following phrase:

"Celebrate what's right with the world dewitt jones video" and click on the link.

By celebrating what's right, we find the energy to fix whats wrong!
_________________________
Me48 W50 S15 S11
M20 T23
Bomb-9/11; A-11/11; I move out 11/11

It's easy to find our bottom, it is our top that requires cultivation.

Every rough spot adds to our emotional constitution. -Barney Fife

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#2244306 - 05/10/12 02:09 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: 2thepoint]
Crimson Offline
Member

Registered: 11/16/11
Posts: 1286
Will do, 2TP.

Struggling today. Feels like I have been fighting off the urge to break down since I woke up. Miss my son terribly, dreading Monday.

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#2244331 - 05/10/12 03:01 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: Crimson]
Rick1963 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/11/11
Posts: 2516
Loc: Piney Land
Crimson my date is June 5 so I understand the feeling. I too feel tired and lost but it aint the end of the world. You will survive this. I believe that you will not be in the same room. while the L negotiate. Remember it is just paper.
_________________________
M 51
W 50
D 17
Separated 6/22/11 moved out 11/12
Together 26 yrs
Married 16
W Filed for D 7/21/11
Served 9/6/11
D final 8/28/12

“Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be.”

John Wooden






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#2244369 - 05/10/12 06:46 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: Rick1963]
vera be fierce Offline
Member

Registered: 04/23/12
Posts: 934
Crimson, Monday will surely not be your easiest day, but given your W's texting you about the letter she was composing, it will probably (not trying to mindread, here) not be easy for her, either. It could be that the actual mediation session will make her think again about pursuing the D further; it's not uncommon for (non-D) cases to settle out of court, no matter how contentious they have been, when it gets down to picking a jury.

Also, if it's just an initial settlement conference, it sounds like nothing has to be finalized Monday. As Rick said, you'll survive. Hopefully you can take some time to treat yourself and GAL this weekend so you'll be the best you you can be under the circumstances on Monday. Good luck.

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#2244380 - 05/10/12 07:26 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: vera be fierce]
Crimson Offline
Member

Registered: 11/16/11
Posts: 1286
Working on it VB. We have a huge work function at a resort on Saturday that my company throws annually for employees and their families. Tough to go this year without w and s, but I am going to try and force myself.

As we really start to get to the meat of everything I think maybe the finality of it all will hit her - but maybe that is what she wants. She said she does not feel like I am an adversary or enemy - but IMO that's because I am not coming after any of her assest that she built through her career. This hearing on Monday is to determine how she gets mine.

Trying to be strong - but today was one of those hard days for reasons I can't really figure out. Hoping tomorrow will be better.

Crimson

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#2244382 - 05/10/12 07:27 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: Crimson]
Crimson Offline
Member

Registered: 11/16/11
Posts: 1286
GM....are ultimatums a good thing right now? Will it be received as "I have to have my way or I am not participating"?? Honest question - I don't know.

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#2244391 - 05/10/12 07:57 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: Crimson]
sandi2 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/27/07
Posts: 10901
"It was rather sobering to hear you say I am almost beyond LRT - no place to go from there, really."

But that's not the way I see it at all.

However, first things first.

"I DID tell my w that we need to talk before she books her travel. I really want to be able to gain some clarity on things."

IMO, it's a must! You owe it to everyone's future! Yours, your son's, and your wife's.

"Specifically, her version of working on the relationship."

You certainly need to know her version!

"I also want to convey that if we are BOTH working on things together I am very flexible in how we handle nearly all situations. Otherwise, I think I would most likely play everything by the book as dictated by the court. Is there a way to present that without it looking like I am dropping an ultimatum? Is presenting it at ALL a bad idea?"

Okay, stop just a moment. You say you want to hear what she means.....but you are already thinking about what you want to SAY before you even hear what kind of "relationship" she has referred to. You assume she means a MR, but I think you could be misled if you aren't careful. I said all of that in my last post, but you're still asking how you can present it to her, so I don't know if you're hearing.

By all means, ask her what kind of R has she been referring to in past conversations. Ask her to paint you a picture of what type of "working" does she have in mind. But DO NOT start telling her how willing you'll be and how hard you'd work, or what type of R you want. Ask her questions until you don't have to "guess" at anything any more. Least of all, what she expects from you in the near future!

Crimson, if that woman doesn't know how you feel and what kind of R you're willing to work for by now, then she NEVER will. She's the one that needs to do the talking, okay? How do you present it? You ask, ask, ask, and ask some more. That's all you do, just ask without telling her anything. Then, you leave it there. Don't agree to anything! That's right, that's what I said. Close the conversation by saying you have a lot to think about, or say you've got to get some sleep or whatever......but don't tell her what you're thinking.

Then come here to discuss it. Not that you don't have a mind of your own, but to keep you from jumping in too soon....like you always do.

If she is not talking about the same things as you are, then you need to find out now. If she doesn't want more than a friendship, or a co-parenting R, then you need to go dark. Going dark is the last resort technique "after" the LRT. It is written in MWD's DR, but a lot of people miss it. Basically, it says that you drop with rope completely, and move on. No more contacts except what's considered top priority about your son....and nothing more. You go by whatever the court dictates about child visitation.

That is not an ultimatum. An ultimatim is more like a threat to use in order to have control over another. That's not what you would be doing if you decided to do this.

Some part of you fear that she'll think you haven't changed at all. Some think she's testing you. But I fear that you are being set up for a very big fall. There's just something there that I don't trust. The way she tries to get you to agree to let her have the S on her terms and yet isn't willing (or so it appears) to do some of the giving. And how she seems to be all talk of working on some type of R (maybe, perhaps, who knows) but she freaks out if you say one wrong word.

Just as a H should make it known that he's not willing to stay in a sexless M till the end of time, so should he make it known that he won't be around to work on a R that she just D him over. But that's just my thinking.

I think you should have an answer to your question regarding being "open to working on a R".
_________________________
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!

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#2244467 - 05/11/12 07:21 AM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: ]
sandi2 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/27/07
Posts: 10901
Sorry GM, I wasn't intentionally picking out your post by saying what I did. I thought I remembered posters in general telling him about ultimatums. However, yes I agree completely that he should not tell her he's thinking about going dark if she isn't interested in a more than being friends.

Crimson, to be clear here, I don't think you should tell her anything about what you intend to do. I mean, isn't that what you've been doing these past months? And if she is playing you by dangling your dream of getting back together in front of you, then you need to make precise decisions for your future that does not include her. Have your plan in place, so if she is not willing to work toward R the M, then you drop her immediately and go dark.

A WAW has to think she has lost you. Really lost you! This will be the only chance for her to see that she's thrown you away. Your W hasn't seen it throughout this separation. She hasn't seen what D from you would look like.

Let me say it again. You need to be very plain spoken so there will be no doubt as to what you are saying when you ask her what kind of R is she open to working on. If she tells you (without hinting around about it), then the next question would be how does she see her part in the work, then ask how she sees your part. No threats or ultimatums and no hasty agreements from you. Neither should you accept her beating around the bush. It's time she spoke up and spoke clearly. If she says she doesn't know what she wants, or doesn't know how she'll feel once the D is final, do not reply.

I think she has no doubts in your ability as a father. And, if she just talks about how she wants the two of you to work together co-parenting, or to be "friend-ly" parents, then ask her if that is what she was referring to when she said she would be open to working on a R. Get all your questions out there so you'll stop these endless guessing games of wondering what she means.

Remember, ask her questions. Do not try to convey anything you're willing to do, or not do. You end the conversation with her wondering about what you're thinking.

You know how 25yrs is always saying to keep the road home paved smoothly? Well, I agree with that up to a point (b/c each stitch is somewhat different), but I also believe the WAW needs the message to hit hard that she could no longer have you in her life. You could actually find somebody else to take her place! She may even be shocked to discover that being just friends with her is not good enough for you! You want a woman who loves you and wants to be a wife to you. Then if her interest is sparked, she needs to work to get you back. If it's too easy too quickly, her romantic interest stands a chance of bombing out (but we can talk about that later).
_________________________
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!

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#2244488 - 05/11/12 10:03 AM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: sandi2]
jks Offline
Member

Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 623
Loc: USA
Great advice, Sandi!!
_________________________
Me: 32 H: 32
M 9 yrs
#1 D7 #2 S5 #3 D2
Bomb 8/12/11
H moved out 8/14/11
PA started w/H & OW in 1/12 - found out 3/24/12
Got my own place 8/25/12
H & OW move in together 9/15/12
Still married.



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#2244520 - 05/11/12 12:18 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: jks]
Crimson Offline
Member

Registered: 11/16/11
Posts: 1286
Well Sandi, and others - the path is becoming more clear. Allow me to share the last 15 hours of my life.....

So last night I texted W to see if she was around. I asked her to call after she put S down for the night if she could. She texts "what's up?". I just respond that I just wanted to talk - nothing threatining, no arguments. Again, she texts "what's up?". I replied just trying to get a better understanding of things. She replied that she was exhausted - I said that I could relate and that when she had time to talk I would be available. I told her that there were some things that I would appreciate her unput on that would help me figure some things out (bad word choice?) and told her specifically that it was not about the legal stuff at all.

After that, she never replied and did not call.

This morning, she called me as I was pulling out of our edition. I didn't feel that her being at work and me being on the road would be the best time to discuss - but clearly she wanted to know what was going on in my mind - so I decided to go for it.

I asked her, essentially, what she felt/thought working on our relationship looked like to her. Told her that knowing that would be helpful to me. She never answered.

She immediately started to question why I was even asking. I can't dictate the whole conversation, but the gist of it was this -

She feels that I am applying some kind of pressure to her because of the settlement hearing on Monday - that the timing of me asking these questions is "suspect" - and then she said if she rewinds to the last time we had pending legal proceedings I wrote her that letter. So it is obvious she thinks that everything I am doing is some kind of ploy. I told her that it wasn't and that me reaching out to her had nothing to do with Monday....that Monday was going to happen either way. I said I hoped that she would trust me when I say that is not what I was doing. She reponded "I've told you before that I have very little trust in you - if I did we wouldn't be here".

She told me that she is not the one I should come to for advice or guidance in this situation. That I need to do what I think is right for me....that she never lead me on to think that there was some kind of "reunion" coming. Keep in mind, she was rather "passionate" with her delivery here, but I kept calm. I kept trying to re-ask the question - "what does working on R look like to you" - she still didn't give an answer.

I told her, calmly, that I had enjoyed hanging out with her, S - and doing things together. That even if it comes to D, I would want to continue doing that - continue working on the R.

In a nutshell, I think she was trying to tell me that

1.) She doesn't know what it would look like
2.) She thinks I am trying to run some kind of ploy in terms of negotiation of Monday (I told her Monday is going to be what it is)
3.) She still does not trust me

She said that it would be best that we have no contact until after the legal "stuff" is over. I will respect that. Don't know how much of that she meant and how much was said in the frustration she was feeling in the moment. Either way, I will respect it.

I came with the best of intentions, honestly. But she seemed to think otherwise. Sometimes I feel as though I just can't win. If I stay quiet I get anxious....if I speak up, then it's some kind of tactic or ploy. There is nothing you can do when the other person has no trust in you - despite the fact that I think I have done a lot to regain some of it.

She said again that she is still just trying to live things one day at a time, and struggling to do that. She felt that I was pressuring her.

I get it. It's time for me drop the rope and move on. It's just hard to do because I will miss her a lot - even though our interactions are limited.

Side note: I said in the conversation that I was trying to get a sense of what was best to do for my and S's life. She said rather firmly, "What do you mean by THAT?" - I explained, but still doubt if it registered.

Feeling rather defeated, but at least I have a better picture of what I need to do. Don't kow why I feel that pulling away will only make things worse (i.e. - "you were just making changes to call of divorce") - but I am thinking that is where I need to go right now.

Crimson

Crimson

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#2244523 - 05/11/12 12:25 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: Crimson]
scaredsilly Offline
Member

Registered: 01/12/12
Posts: 1219
she will think what she wants and what justifies her actions. you know your truth.
_________________________
M:63
H:53
S:41, SS:28, SS:25, SD:23
M:15
T:16

Bomb:12/17/11, "I think we should go our separate ways."
H moves to his mother's house, 4/1/12
12/21/12: H moves back home, piecing


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#2244530 - 05/11/12 12:43 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: scaredsilly]
vera be fierce Offline
Member

Registered: 04/23/12
Posts: 934
Crimson, that must have been hard to do that conversation from your car! Since she said she is feeling pressured and wants no contact until the legal part is done, it unfortunately sounds like that is what it may be coming to for you. At least she is telling you what she needs, for now. Can you see how she might think that reaching out at this point, so close to Monday, would make her suspicious? As SS noted, she will think what she wants and you will not be able to use your words to convince her of anything at this point. Take care of yourself this weekend.

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#2244556 - 05/11/12 02:27 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: vera be fierce]
Crimson Offline
Member

Registered: 11/16/11
Posts: 1286
Yeah - it blows, but I have no choice but to accept it. I still don't fully undestand what she is thinking long term - if anything. Seems like going day to day is about the best she can do.

I feel like all of the progress that we have made has been lost - like it never happened. What I was feared happening happened. I asked her about something, peacefully - and she iterpreted it as me pressuring her and was put off. I didn't pressure....I just asked questions.

When I told her some of my feelings - "letting things go will be hard for me", etc. - she responded "Listen to you, it's all me, me, me with you". I said that I can only speak about me and my feelings - not hers. I told her that me trying to tell her her feelings is part of what got us here in the first place. By the way, she does this ^^^^ a lot when I talk about my feelings.

Oh well - I tried, and I tried with the best of intentions. I can't control her, how she reacts to what I say, how she interprets what I say and what she does with it. I can control me - and that is about it.

Crimson

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#2244566 - 05/11/12 03:09 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: Crimson]
2thepoint Offline
Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1692
Crimson - I'm sorry the conversation didn't go well. It would have probably been better to have had that conversation in person instead of over the phone, but that is water under the bridge now, I suppose.

Quote:
I get it. It's time for me drop the rope and move on. It's just hard to do because I will miss her a lot - even though our interactions are limited.


I'd say that yes it is time for you to drop the rope. Do you know how to do that? Go back and reread Sandi's post to you on the topic if you have doubts.

Good luck, Crimson. I'm really sorry things have turned out the way they have. You'll survive though. Do you believe that?
_________________________
Me48 W50 S15 S11
M20 T23
Bomb-9/11; A-11/11; I move out 11/11

It's easy to find our bottom, it is our top that requires cultivation.

Every rough spot adds to our emotional constitution. -Barney Fife

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#2244569 - 05/11/12 03:22 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: 2thepoint]
~ kd ~ Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/11
Posts: 4866
Loc: Canoe'k-land
One of the problems with initiating any conversation with the WAS is that the LBS has expectations.

Crimson, a lot of any of the decisions that you have made appear to have continued to be in an effort to save your M. A lot of conversations you have with her appear as though you feel you can change her mind with words, or some physical gestures which suggest that you are interested in or committed to her.

What we find is, until the WAS is wanting to R... they ARE NOT... and until they tell the WAS that they ARE... there is nothing the LBS can do... IF your W is willing and ready to R, then she will let you know in a way that you will know... generally with words that are similar to "I would like to work on our R and this is how I would like to do it".

The LBS words can be misinterpreted by and twisted by the WAS... this is witnessed time and time again...

ACTIONS will be very clear to the WAS. No words are necessary. Unless they ask about the actions.

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#2244574 - 05/11/12 03:55 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: ~ kd ~]
Crimson Offline
Member

Registered: 11/16/11
Posts: 1286
I agree with you, KD. And I was trying to show through my actions (being flexible with time with s, trying to be more thoughtful, etc.) because I believed actions spoke louder than words. I honestly was trying to signal signs of change.

Clearly, she is not really in a place where she can say she wants to work on things. I get that now, and I get that it is time for me to go away. If it is not about the baby and not urgent, I won't communicate.

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#2244575 - 05/11/12 04:06 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: Crimson]
Crimson Offline
Member

Registered: 11/16/11
Posts: 1286
Contd......

I will struggle with going dark. I will really miss her and feel as if I a setting things back. But I am really beginning to believe that being this available, this flexible has worked less in my favor than I would have hoped. I think it may have done some incremental good - we never fought, argued, and so on - and that's not bad. But at BEST she is confused, at WORST she is done.

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#2244579 - 05/11/12 04:23 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: Crimson]
~ kd ~ Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/11
Posts: 4866
Loc: Canoe'k-land
Yes, your actions were ALSO based on an expectation that your W would suddenly desire you (since your words weren't getting through).

And your actions were clear, even if your words were not... your W understood them loud and clear...

and said...

"I need space..."

and when she didn't get that space...

she "attacked"...

I know you understand that and I'm really just posting that "pattern" as a reminder to others that we see this, time and time again...

Both word AND actions, which the LBS uses with expectations of getting the WAS to "see changes" and desire the LBS back are seen as pressure...

if and until the WAS changes their mind...

which many WAS will say often doesn't happen until it is very clear to the WAS that the LBS has detached and moved on...

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#2244587 - 05/11/12 05:07 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: ~ kd ~]
Crimson Offline
Member

Registered: 11/16/11
Posts: 1286
I think that I got sucked in by her desire to go back to counselling and some of the things she said while there that even to a jaded individual sounded like she wanted to work on things. Hell, she said she was open to spending time together and that maybe she didn't try or communicate well enough. It really seemed like it was a soft yellow light for me.

Up until yesterday interactions were positive, we were able to go to church together, freindly texts - it felt light slow progressive growth. Fools gold perhaps.

So should I go back to a strict interpretation of the 37 rules now??

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#2244590 - 05/11/12 05:26 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: Crimson]
Broken74 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/19/12
Posts: 288
Hey Crimson,

Just wanted to drop in and wish you well and good vibes my friend.
I'll let the vets chime in on the 37 rules question as I am in violation of some of those quite frequently. Remember the believe nothing that you hear and less than 50% of what you see (that one keeps me sane I think) mantra and keep your chin up!!!
_________________________
me 38
W 30
T 3
M in 05/2010
Separated 08/2011
Stephchildren (all hers) SS17, SS12, SD8
I filed 8/27, she countered I filed response 9/5
Anxiously waiting on the judge!

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#2244593 - 05/11/12 05:46 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: Broken74]
~ kd ~ Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/11
Posts: 4866
Loc: Canoe'k-land
Yes, I would say as dim as possible and 37 rules.

You DO need to detach... but even more so... your W needs to BELIEVE you detached...

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#2244594 - 05/11/12 05:58 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: ~ kd ~]
kolja Offline
Member

Registered: 12/15/11
Posts: 335
Loc: WA
Crimson, I still miss my wife every day. We don't have a little one that brings us in contact, and until yesterday went three weeks without so much as a word from her. Try to stay busy with things you enjoy - if you like to fish, go fish. If it's motorcycles, go ride. Whatever it is. How did you spend free time before you were together?

Enjoy the small positives, in things completely unrelated to your marraige. If it's a nice day outside, take a moment to be consciously grateful for it, for example.

I'm not trying to be smart alec in just re-posting what getting-a-life is all about, but just trying to be more illustrative. In my case, keeping busy with exercise, getting the house in shape, and other hobbies/interests has kept me from wallowing much (there's just no time to do it!!). Even though I miss her, that doesn't really define me. And I also found that when you look for small positives, and go out of your way to allow yourself to feel good about them and ACKNOWLEDGE that you do, you start to LOOK for them - you start LOOKING for the good all around you, all the time, even when otherwise you might be in a pretty dark place...
_________________________
Me: 36
Her: 35
Together 7/09
Married 8/7/10
Separate rooms since at least April 11
"I've decided I want a divorce" 12/5/11
She moves out of state/files 2/7/12
Dissolution final 5/12

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#2244609 - 05/11/12 07:18 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: kolja]
Crimson Offline
Member

Registered: 11/16/11
Posts: 1286
So just regrouping on the 37 Rules based off of where I am in my situation. Couple of things for the experts or anyone else out there that has an opinion.

8. Do not buy gifts to make "brownie points". (Can't buy his/her love and affection.)

Son and I went to one of those "make your own pottery" places and he painted a giant plate for her for Mother's day. It doesn't mention the holiday, just has the year on it and his name. Do I still give this to her - or do I hang on to it?



13.Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times! In other words, be the best you can be and look the best you can look at all times. Even when wearing jeans and T-shirt, wear good cologne, b/c it does cause the spouse to take notice.

Does this really matter at this stage? Granted, I will always look presentable if nothing more for the sake of my own pride - but I question if she evenmn notices this stuff at this point.


24.Be patient......very, very patient. Give your spouse space and time. When you pull back, it will draw them towards you. It feels opposite of what you want to do, but it works!

This for sure worked once. Will it again? Seems as if me being kind of gone is what she wants (or am I mind reading?). Like I said, it blows because we have been getting along and now we have fallen back to this stage.


29.Know that if you can do 180's, your smallest CONSISTENT
actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say
or write.


OK, I know for a fact that I did a ton of positive, consistent 180's and still it has landed me seemingly nowhere. I won't stop them, because they have been good for me - but I am seriously questioning the value that consistency in action has with a WAW....well, in my situation anyway.


32.Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because
he/she is hurting and scared.


Is this still valid at this stage? It's been several months now. She is still saying a lot of negatives....well she did today, anyway...."I don't trust you, etc."

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#2244631 - 05/11/12 09:54 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: ]
bustorama Offline
Member

Registered: 06/26/10
Posts: 519
Originally Posted By: gabbysmom23
I'm not trying to be insensitive, but you really have to let go nd detach. I know you fear doing that like holy hell, but it is necessary to save YoUrSELF!


It's time, Crimson. She has made it clear herself that you continue to push her away by not doing so. But, again, that shouldn't be your concern. Your concern should be accepting the reality that right now you are not in a romantic R with anyone. You are effectively a divorced man with a young son whose Mom you are still on good terms with. Life could be ALOT worse -- you could see that if you could only detach from what seems right now to you to be an all-consuming negative thing in your life.

Re: your questions on the "Rules", I'll answer one -- if you and your wife were already divorced, would you help your son give/get her a Mother's Day gift? Myself, I would, because she is the mother of your son, and your S's mom. But it should be about your son giving it to his Mom (and maybe you thanking her as his mother, NOT as your wife). That's just me, though.
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#2244632 - 05/11/12 09:56 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: bustorama]
bustorama Offline
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You put so much pressure on yourself and on her that I am surprised you both haven't exploded in the last month.
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#2244634 - 05/11/12 10:05 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: bustorama]
bustorama Offline
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My post from 05/01 is still about where I think you should be. Maybe even a bit more distant now since you have pressured/pursued her more since then.

Originally Posted By: bustorama
Crimson, my friend, you are as anxious about getting things "right" as I was. I still think your big picture is that you need to relax and let life come to you more than you need to worry about if you are getting things "right."


Originally Posted By: bustorama
The problem is that the more that YOU try to open their heart actively (by pursuit/pressure/asking about R/working on R), the more they defensively shut off to you -- because they see it as your ulterior motives -- it being about you and your needs, rather than about her hurt and her needs to feel safe and loved again.


Originally Posted By: Crimson
And if it IS trust that needs to be rebuilt (assuming that she is honest about the postives she's stated above) how to I do I help her get that back over time? I know that it is a matter of being consistent - and I think I have been doing a reasonable job there. But what more is there to it? If anything? And what if being "consistent" has a "pursuing" feel to it?


Originally Posted By: bustorama
See above. You just be a damn good guy living your life with your S and treat her well when she approaches you. The most powerful thing you really can do is to really listen to her and be emotionally there for her. So much of attachment is about that. Don't overdo it or feel compelled that you need to initiate anything or flatter/pursue her or it will backfire.


Quote:
Which brings me to my next point - "work on things". What does that mean for a WAW? She kind of pulled the plug on MC and I have not reintroduced the topic in awhile....should I?


Originally Posted By: bustorama
No, don't reintroduce MC. Don't try to control what "working on things" means. Let her define it. You simply agree, say, sure, I'm all about working on things. Then get busy with yourself and live your life with your S. Let her initiate whatever she means by "working on things." You want her to be the one to initiate the steps. Just be ready to reciprocate with mojo. If she doesn't initiate anything to "work on things," then fine you have your answer. Her clock will be slower than you would like things to be, so you need to GAL and be busy with yourself.

She's got alot going on before she can get back into a relationship with you since she is in the midst of a divorce.
_________________________
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She Moved Out-5/28/2010
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Now-back together
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http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2079304

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#2244697 - 05/12/12 11:04 AM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: bustorama]
Crimson Offline
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Registered: 11/16/11
Posts: 1286
Thank you for the responses, Busto.

I know how the LBS feels changes seemingly day by day, but today I feel like just waving the white flag. Maybe tomorrow or next week or next month will be different, but today that's where I am.

I went to the Diamond Backs - Giants game last night with a dear friend from grad school. We were talking about my sitch and the my w stating that we shouldn't communicate until the conclusion of legal proceedings. Then, *poof* - she texts me a picture of s with a big smile on his face - like she never said not to communicate. I didn't respond.

I hope I have the strength to be done for awhile. I feel as though if she had a choice between reading something I do as negative or positive towards her she would take negative every time. For now, I just can't take it anymore. God knows I have done nothing but try to be positive, supportive and present.



Crimson

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#2244703 - 05/12/12 11:55 AM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: Crimson]
~ kd ~ Offline
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Crimson, I realize that we try to not label a WAS with MLC... the reality is, the work is the same, regardless...

I do think that you might get some insight though, to take a closer look at MLC...

I know, I know, vets... but the confusion she appears to be showing... Crimson, if this is MLC...

Again, detach... GAL... get out of your W's head... and be prepared that this could be a much longer path, yet...

IDK, I would love to hear from a WAS regarding this confusion... does a WAS really "forget" boundaries and send these types of "mixed messages"...?

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#2244706 - 05/12/12 12:28 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: ~ kd ~]
Crimson Offline
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Registered: 11/16/11
Posts: 1286
KD-

The thought has crossed my mind a million times but I have dismissed it because, as you said, the work is the same. Moreover, there is nothing I can do about it. And lord knows don't dare introduce the topic to her.

Holding arm on minute, yelling at me the next, wanting a D, wanting to go through IVF again, saying we shouldn't communicate, then sending text messages.....I could go on.

I don't know for sure what MLC looks like, but like I said - I have wondered. Regardless, it remains a path I should probably stay off of - because really, what can I do about it anyway if that is what part of this is?

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#2244707 - 05/12/12 12:41 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: ~ kd ~]
2thepoint Offline
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Originally Posted By: Kaffe Diem
IDK, I would love to hear from a WAS regarding this confusion... does a WAS really "forget" boundaries and send these types of "mixed messages"...?


I'm not a WAS but I'd say the answer to your question is a resounding, YES!

One minute my W says she is DONE, the next she is talking about wills, vacations, boob jobs. One day she says she needs space, the next she is planning whole weekends together with the family. One month she is going away for awhile, the next she is asking to go to the movies, out to eat, etc.

It is a wall of confusion!!
_________________________
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#2244708 - 05/12/12 12:47 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: Crimson]
~ kd ~ Offline
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Well, the one thing that IS different Crimson...

With MLC... even though they might "notice" your changes... they do that back and forth thing and there are a lot of mixed messages if the LBS focuses too much on the MLCer...

A WAS might notice the changes and if there is a move towards you... they are moving towards you...

An MLCer... they appear to move towards the LBS... then they panic and attack... and then they send gifts... or invite us to be friends... only to tell us they want no contact...

No 180 or any effort on your part would stop your W from moving towards... or moving away... from you... she will do that... she talks about a future with you, yet is continuing on the D path...

the work is the same... but... the results are different... you can not make ANY assumptions on the MLCer words NOR actions... and certainly expectations due to perceived patterns... don't even go there...

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#2244709 - 05/12/12 12:50 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: ~ kd ~]
~ kd ~ Offline
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2tp, I understand what you are saying... although... from the WAS's I've read here... I'm not too sure about that...

I don't think that Sandi or Brit said to their H's that they wanted to get D and have another child with their H's... crazy

I'm not sure that either of them decided to break it off with their H's thinking that the world would be rosy... and I don't think they went out and got boob jobs... lol smile

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#2244711 - 05/12/12 01:05 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: ~ kd ~]
Crimson Offline
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Registered: 11/16/11
Posts: 1286
".....then they panic and attack".

Interesting. I can see some of that pattern. The glaring moment was, again, the night we went out together and had a great time and then we are in the car for 5 minutes and she goes OFF on me because I said I wanted our son to have a sibling some day and "I never say I want it to be with her".

Wasn't going to post this, but a few Sundays ago at dinner she let me know she was no longer taking her antidepressants. She has been on them since we met - and long before. Depression runs in BOTH of our families. I don't think that that decision on her part is really going to help things much - especially at a time like this.

Sad thing is, at this stage I really don't think she has done a lot of looking inward to figure this out. Yes, she has said she was possibly mirroring communication problems she witnessed in her parents relationship - which was a good step, but I haven't heard much beyond that. I am still of the belief that if one was to ask her what caused all of this she would spend 80% of her breath on me.

Does MLC ever END? Is it possible to be there at 38-39 years old?

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#2244712 - 05/12/12 01:11 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: Crimson]
Crimson Offline
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...just to add more clarity, w said in an e-mail a few weeks ago regarding our last frozen embryo that that "is something that we started as a married couple and need to see through".

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#2244718 - 05/12/12 01:42 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: Crimson]
~ kd ~ Offline
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MLC is named such because it (the namesake) generally occurs "mid life"... this same type of crises can occur at any period in a person's life when they might normally go through a "controlled transition" ie. they KNOW they are having to deal with a change of life... and they work through it consciously...

it occurs more often in mid life because they often didn't do any or all of the "needed" work during prior transitions... something often triggers the crises... that trigger could be something as far back as two years prior to the stuff that becomes blatantly obvious to the spouse (or other loved ones and close friends)...

Does it end? Yes, I would say usually... although the person who comes out on the other side of the transition may not be the person we knew... transitions are about remaking ourselves... if prior transitions were not completed, these changes can be abrupt and vast... there are those who appear to be in perpetual MLC, although they could simply be people who've made it through and are simply just vastly different people who we still expect to be the "old" person so our cognitive dissonance cannot be resolved and we don't "like" them in their new form... (and they don't like us much, either... biker / ballerina type differences...)

There are milder MLCs it seems, and those people may have gone through prior transitions in a more functional or complete way...

Anyhow, just putting that out there. There are just some things that your W is doing that IS confusing... and that's a pretty good indicator of MLC... not the "do I want to leave, or stay and try"...

For example, my W knows my mom is an alcoholic... my dad a recovering alcoholic (about 7 years dry)... and my W hides a box of liquor chocolates along with D9's stuff... doesn't say anything about it to me... tells D9 that it's for "someone over there if they want like, Gramma or Grampa..."... ??? crazy Of course yesterday was my b-day... so for all I know she might have meant them for me... but I've never liked those things and she USED to know that...

Not all the confusion is that obvious...

Again... IF your W is MLC... all you have is time... even if you are D... but you only have your life to live... detached from any thought of M or R... or thinking that anything you do at this time will help... but it is good stuff for the future... what you do now, like planting a bamboo... will yield noticeable results in the long term...

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#2244843 - 05/13/12 11:10 AM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: ]
Crimson Offline
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Tough one today - Mother's Day. We have usually been going to church on Sundays. It's starts in an hour and I am dressed to go - but still not sure if I can. I figure that it's a 180 I am trying to do - for me. So I don't think I am going to let her factor in. Church is neutral ground and if ever I needed a boost from God, it is now. Don't even know if she will be there - but my heart is telling me to go either way.

Happy Mother's Day, ladies - you are all doing your best and your kids love you.

Crimson

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#2244880 - 05/13/12 04:36 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: Crimson]
Crimson Offline
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Well, went to church and when I arrived she wasn't there. I took my usual seat and just before the service began she showed up and sat down right next to me. It was the first time we had communicated since the phone call on my way to work on Friday.

I'm sure I'll probably get a smack in the mouth from the board on this, but I DID give her a Mother's Day card. I wrote a nice note to her from the perspective of our son and then a quick blurb from me (nothing romantic in the least). We both enjoyed the message and then went to the nursery to pick up our S. I hadn't seen him since Tuesday. He saw me peek in and ran right at me with his arms out saying "daddy! daddy! daddy! daddy!" - I scooped him up - that totally made my day. W asked me to walk with him while she went to the chapel to say her prayers - so we spent a little bit of time together in the courtyard (he loves to put his hands in the fountains). W came back, we walked to her car - I strapped s in and said good-bye. W said thank you for the card and making Mother's Day special. We exchange a quick, non-romantic hug and that was it.

Maybe that violates going "gray" but I woke up this morning with a mindset of "eff it". I know this won't change anything, it won't stop the divorce - nothing will. But for one reason or another my heart felt compelled to get up, get her that card and go to church. GM - you mentioned to stop with the rules and tactics and just live - well, that is what I decided to do this morning.

I also had a quick inspiring moment with the spouse of a co-worker last night who knows my situation. He, too, is a new father. He just patted me on the back and said "do the right things and things will be alright". Simple, some may call it cliche, but it that moment - coming from him it actually seemed to mean something. Despite her saying we shouldn't communicate until after the proceedings are over, the card (and I've decided to give her the plate we made for her last weekend) seemed and felt like the right thing to do - regardless if it gets me one step closer to saving my marriage.

I am a different man, and I am going to do my best to live the changes that I needed to make at all times. W or not.

Crimson

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#2244882 - 05/13/12 04:47 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: Crimson]
25yearsmlc Offline
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I think you did great Crimson.

For all our analysis & microscopic staring, sometimes it's just as your friend & new father says,

do the right thing, hope for the best & let it go.

In the end, at best--all we can do is our best. I think you are doing that.


That just has to be enough (b/c what else can you do now?)

Good job.
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#2244884 - 05/13/12 04:49 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: 25yearsmlc]
Crimson Offline
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Registered: 11/16/11
Posts: 1286
Thanks, 25.....thought you had left me there for awhile! smile As you can see, it has been a bumpy two weeks.

Thanks for weighing in -

Crimson

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#2244895 - 05/13/12 07:13 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: Crimson]
2thepoint Offline
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No "smack" from me, Crimson. Mothers Day comes but one time each year, and whether or not you remain married to your W, she will forever be your Son's mother.

FWIW, I too gave my W a card as well as a 4 picture framed collage of the boys. I also cooked on the grill today. Some may call it pursuit but to my mind, my W is the mother of my children and regardless of what is going between us, she still deserves to be celebrated for the mother that she is.
_________________________
Me48 W50 S15 S11
M20 T23
Bomb-9/11; A-11/11; I move out 11/11

It's easy to find our bottom, it is our top that requires cultivation.

Every rough spot adds to our emotional constitution. -Barney Fife

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#2244940 - 05/13/12 10:55 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: ]
Crimson Offline
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Registered: 11/16/11
Posts: 1286
Well, she seemed to like the plate a lot....loved it actually. It looked very much like a two-year-old painted it. He also made her an apron with his hand and footprints on it at school.

She dropped s off at the house and gave me the gratitude letter she has been writing. I have not read it yet because I figured I would be emotional afterwards and thought it best to put the baby to sleep first......don't want him to see daddy blubbering!!

I'm sure I will post about it.

Crimson

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#2245025 - 05/14/12 10:06 AM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: Crimson]
Crimson Offline
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Posts: 1286
So I read the letter.

It was about 5 beautiful pages of all of the reasons/things she is grateful for about me and what we have been through. I cried.

She talked about becoming a mother, sharing our childhoods, how I taught her unconditional love in a relationship for the first time, how surreal it was when I proposed because she "never thought things like that would happen to her".

Hell, I am getting choked up just rehashing it. I only read it once. It's a tad too emotional to revisit a bunch of time.

If you read it, you wouldn't think it was from the perspective of a woman that wanted to divorce the man she was writing about - and that's me being objective. I just don't understand.

There was no "I am glad we can be friends" or any mention of the divorce, nothing. Just pages of appreciation, memories and kindness.

It's so confusing. I just don't know what she seems intent on this thing. Today is going to be rough.

Crimson

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#2245063 - 05/14/12 11:50 AM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: Crimson]
~ kd ~ Offline
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Life is about our personal experiences...

and not about any expectations of our presence in the experience of others...

So when we have a complaint about OUR life... we express it from OUR perspective simply as a statement...

When you wrote your letter (there was more, wasn't there) it was to be from your experience with no expectations regarding your W's reaction to it... of course, that wasn't quite the case, was it...?

Your W's letter SHOULD have been written from her experience, with no expectations of how it would affect you and what your reaction might be...

So do your very best to consider that and act accordingly...

It is very possible that your W is expecting you to react by going back into pursuit mode...

or... she may be expecting you to not react...

I think she's expecting the former... but that's irrelevant...

honour her letter as something she wanted to express... nothing more... nothing less... and she's not hoping that you are going to smother her, again...

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#2245113 - 05/14/12 03:03 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: ~ kd ~]
Crimson Offline
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Registered: 11/16/11
Posts: 1286
I'm not going to use it as a platform to pursue. I thanked her for it and that was about it. No plan of increasing contact at all.

I let one of my best friends read it - and it confused them as well. So many positives called out - so many things that liked/likes in me. Hard to see how that transaltes into divorce. I mean really, it was a heart-felt letter about how much better I have made her life. This is something that is not meant for me to understand.

We have the settlement hearing in an hour and a half. The first real legal face-off in this whole process (that makes the letter even HARDER to digest). I am a bundle of nerves at the moment and pray to God that I hold my sh*t together during the hearing. Already I can feel my emotions getting the better of me. I am dreading this more than anything in recent memory. To think that she has a L there to protect her from ME?? I struggle with that a lot.

Oh well - just venting I guess.I just want today to be over.

Crimson

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#2245133 - 05/14/12 04:19 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: Crimson]
bustorama Offline
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The L are not just there to protect her from you (or vice versa), it's also to protect you from yourselves. That you don't act from feelings (of guilt, remorse, martyrdom, etc.) and hurt yourselves or your S in the process. Best of luck for mutual peace and amicability in your hearing.

The WAS are typically confused and conflicted, so their behavior makes little sense from the outside. It makes perfect sense from their perspective, though, because it reflects how they feel at that moment in time. When you lead (and accept) by removing yourself from the equation, clarity often follows for them. It's either what they really wanted or not what they really wanted. And they act accordingly.

The longer you stay in the equation, the longer the confusion/limbo/pain goes on for all of you (W, S and you). When you detach yourself emotionally (and/or physically) from the relationship, you allow yourself to see all kinds of great things and opportunities in your life that have been eclipsed by the focus on the R. And you lovingly accept your W's confusion.

Don't smother your lovely W:



Show her your greatest love, by accepting her confusion and ongoing decision to divorce you. Find your way, as she finds hers.

_________________________
Me-41
W-37
D10, D6, D3
T-Since 12/2001
Married-9/2004
She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Piecing begins-04/2011
Now-back together
My Thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2079304

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#2245184 - 05/14/12 07:09 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: bustorama]
sayitaintso Offline
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Registered: 11/04/11
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Great Post Busto, thanks.
_________________________
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"Nothing in the Universe can stop you from letting go and starting over at anytime"- Guy Finley

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#2245187 - 05/14/12 07:29 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: sayitaintso]
jks Offline
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Loved your post, Busto!!
_________________________
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M 9 yrs
#1 D7 #2 S5 #3 D2
Bomb 8/12/11
H moved out 8/14/11
PA started w/H & OW in 1/12 - found out 3/24/12
Got my own place 8/25/12
H & OW move in together 9/15/12
Still married.



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#2245767 - 05/16/12 04:36 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: Crimson]
2thepoint Offline
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Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1692
Hey Crimson, how did it go at the hearing? I hope you are doing well and holding it together. Let us know how you are doing when you are ready.
_________________________
Me48 W50 S15 S11
M20 T23
Bomb-9/11; A-11/11; I move out 11/11

It's easy to find our bottom, it is our top that requires cultivation.

Every rough spot adds to our emotional constitution. -Barney Fife

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#2245795 - 05/16/12 06:04 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: 2thepoint]
Crimson Offline
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Registered: 11/16/11
Posts: 1286
Not well. It was painful for both of us and I think she was not happy with all of the outcome. I don't know what she was expecting. Hell, I wasn't happy with it either. That typically means the mediator did a good job.

She is angry. She is angry about the settlement and she is angry that I am not willing to let her have S for 19 days to take out of town to see her friends and family in IA. If she is not willing to work on R or at least tell me what "being open" to working on R is for her - then I suggested we stick with the time that was set forth by the court. It sets boundaries. She immediately said that she always suspected that my flexibility had conditions - rather angrily. She unloaded on me in e-mail. Saying that she questions my motives, and that that hearing made that even worse (based off of some of the back and forth and bargaining between lawyers - it's an ugly process....I don't know what she expected). Quote from her e-mail:

"The judge (she meant mediator) basically told me I was wasting my time and just wracking up attorney fees to even try to negotiate with you because she felt you were not reasonable at all. This is the man that loves his wife and son….."

That's how she ended it. I didn't reply. The e-mail was mean, accusatory and uncalled for. I did not deserve that.

I have grown leaps and bounds trying to be a better man, husband, and father. And if she STILL thinks that everything I do is a tactic or ploy - that's on her. It's her loss. It's as if she loses it every time she doesn't get 100% her way in this (settlement, trip to IA). Again, I don't kow what she expected from this process. I told her from day one that EVERYONE loses in this....me, her AND our son. I have been trying to protect her from feeling the pain of her decision to the extent that I can. Bought her things for house, give her time with S that's mine, always available...and so on. And still she thinks so poorly of me. I'm done for awhile, if not forever. She can live with the decision(s) she made and all of the negative consequences that come with it. I am done being the shield.

I know I am just a little angry right now and venting, so I will probably feel different/better tomorrow - but it just feels like she is lost, confused, wanting everything and giving nothing, and taking her anger out on me while owning no responsibility for her actions. Divorce was her idea and her wish - not mine.

Sorry for the crappy tone. Just worn out today.

Crimson

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#2245796 - 05/16/12 06:06 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: Crimson]
Crimson Offline
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Registered: 11/16/11
Posts: 1286
By the way....I got the same "you're wasting atty fees" speech from mediator, too.

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#2245833 - 05/16/12 08:51 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: ]
jks Offline
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Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 623
Loc: USA
So sorry, Crimson!
_________________________
Me: 32 H: 32
M 9 yrs
#1 D7 #2 S5 #3 D2
Bomb 8/12/11
H moved out 8/14/11
PA started w/H & OW in 1/12 - found out 3/24/12
Got my own place 8/25/12
H & OW move in together 9/15/12
Still married.



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#2245839 - 05/16/12 09:23 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: jks]
2thepoint Offline
Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1692
Crimson - sorry the hearing was so rough. At least you got that part out of the way. I'd imagine it is kind of like ripping off a bandaid. The quicker you rip it off, the faster y'all can heal.

It is crazy how the WAW thinks and views things. How easily you could have turned the tables on your W and said that she was making all nicey nice simply as a ploy to get more time with your S. And that she was stringing you along for her own nefarious purposes. And that she put together her "gratitude letter" simply to gain your favor just before the hearing. But you didn't and the fact that she can't see that now is just sad.

The Pastor in my church recently said that God never wastes our pain. I think there is some truth in that!

Hang in there!
_________________________
Me48 W50 S15 S11
M20 T23
Bomb-9/11; A-11/11; I move out 11/11

It's easy to find our bottom, it is our top that requires cultivation.

Every rough spot adds to our emotional constitution. -Barney Fife

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#2245853 - 05/16/12 10:26 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: 2thepoint]
Crimson Offline
Member

Registered: 11/16/11
Posts: 1286
Yeah - thanks, 2TP. I thought all the same things. I think she is lost right now and there is nothing I can do to help. If I am nice, it is a ploy - if I stand my ground I am manipulative or a jerk. I really can't win.

For too long I have been pinning my mood and self esteem on however she felt about me at any given moment. Enough.

Crimson

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#2245854 - 05/16/12 10:28 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: Crimson]
Crimson Offline
Member

Registered: 11/16/11
Posts: 1286
I have never forgotten about what 25yearsmlc said - that when she had totally accepted that fact that her marriage was over and literally moved on - things got better. I think I am walking up the driveway to that house right now and might start ringing the bell soon.

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#2245856 - 05/16/12 11:01 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: Crimson]
Shaky Offline
Member

Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 67
Loc: Hillsboro,Or.
Crimson-

Sorry about the meeting, I really think she strung you along just to get what she wanted. Hopefully you can get through this and get back to a somewhat normal life with or without your wife.

Doesn't mean you have to give up just set some boundaries and keep your expectations low to keep your sanity.

I cannot for the life of me understand why she would ask for help with the frozen embryo. Was she thinking that if she had another baby everything would be fantastic even if you weren't part of her life. What is your take on that?

Shaky
_________________________
M 42
W 41
S 10
D 7
M 15 Years
T 20 Years
Divorce busted

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#2245858 - 05/16/12 11:14 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: Shaky]
Crimson Offline
Member

Registered: 11/16/11
Posts: 1286
Dude, it befuddles me.

I think that she wants to be a mother again - and isn't thinking through the consequences of doing it "on her own" with the embryo. She said that it was "something that we started as a married couple" that we need to see through. She's gonna be 39, and probably feels that time is almost up for her in a lot of regards so that would have been the easiest way to get there. To divorce, date, find someone and get pregnant is not a quick thing.

I know there is nothing I can do about it, but a lot of her actions just defy conventional logic. I think the stress has her thinking "off" some. I mean really, how did she expect the settlement hearing to be "as amicable and smooth as we make it". It's a war between two parties with different, conflicting goals and objectives. It's almost as if when she has to taste the reality of all of this she freaks out.

I really am checking out for awhile. I still love her, I still care about her deeply and the sad thing is I don't want her mad at me because I want her to come back. But I can't keep going like this. I need some time off.

Crimson

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#2245859 - 05/16/12 11:18 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: Crimson]
Crimson Offline
Member

Registered: 11/16/11
Posts: 1286
......rant, continued......I mean, can you imagine how hard it would be to have a three year old, and a newborn on your own in an 900 sqft condo?? And still have a job to go to??? How would that work?? And I can't breastfeed - what does she think? I would say - just keep him/her for the next year until he/she can take a bottle?? I would want to be with him/her....and she would NEED me to be. That is why I think her logic/thinking is "off" right now.

I just know I am tired of getting attacked when I am working with the best of intentions. I can't take it anymore. Like I said, I love her dearly - butI have to get off of this ride.

Crimson

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#2245869 - 05/17/12 12:22 AM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: Crimson]
Crazyville Offline
Member

Registered: 01/07/12
Posts: 1047
This seems like a time for you so calmly tell her that this is the course she's chosen. That with you, she gets one set of rules; without you, she gets another. It's not an ultimatum, just a fact of life. She simply can't have her cake and eat it, too.
_________________________
Me:49 WAW H:59
T:19.5 M:19
S:13

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#2245878 - 05/17/12 01:40 AM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: Crazyville]
Shaky Offline
Member

Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 67
Loc: Hillsboro,Or.
Originally Posted By: Crazyville
This seems like a time for you so calmly tell her that this is the course she's chosen. That with you, she gets one set of rules; without you, she gets another. It's not an ultimatum, just a fact of life. She simply can't have her cake and eat it, too.


Yes, I agree. I'm not very good at mind reading but I can tell you from all the threads I have read, friends going through this and even my personal situation there will be a time that your wife will wake up and try to get you back. I have seen it time and time again. Problem I see is you have done all the work to better yourself but what has she done? At the moment she thinks she is perfect and you are the issue.

You will need to decide is it worth the wait, I had some serious resentment issues I had to work through. I set a target of 1 year, if within that time my wife didn't try to work on relationship I was out. You should try to wait it out and when she is ready get her to MC.

Shaky
_________________________
M 42
W 41
S 10
D 7
M 15 Years
T 20 Years
Divorce busted

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#2245916 - 05/17/12 08:59 AM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: Shaky]
Crimson Offline
Member

Registered: 11/16/11
Posts: 1286
I will take your word for it, but in this moment it seems like coming back is the last thing she would want to do. It's like day one all over again and I'm the biggest a-hole on the planet. Again, I have really worked so hard to be a better man, father and husband and she can only see negatives. I'm just pretty much tired of being beat up and made to be the bad guy based off of a course of action SHE chose.

It hurts like hell, but I have got to distance myself. I don't know if her hateful email from yesterday was just a bad, heated reaction to everything that built up with the settlement hearing and her frustration with not being able to take him for 20 days - but I just can't take anymore punches. Not after the work that I have done, not after how hard I tried.

Sad thing is, I still want her back.....my family back. But I can't be a punching bag when she refuses to see her role in the creation of the consequences that she is hating right now. Nope. Just blame me.

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#2245926 - 05/17/12 09:17 AM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: Crimson]
Crazyville Offline
Member

Registered: 01/07/12
Posts: 1047
And BTW, was that 20 consecutive days??? If so, that's ridiculous of her to even ask. Even if it's not consecutive, she doesn't have a right to be angry with you for saying no. She wants to take him with her because she doesn't want to go without him that long, but she expects you to be fine with it.
_________________________
Me:49 WAW H:59
T:19.5 M:19
S:13

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#2245931 - 05/17/12 09:25 AM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: Crazyville]
labug Online
Member

Registered: 11/24/11
Posts: 8548
Loc: Sonoran Desert
Crimson, I don't post much to you anymore but have definitely been following. I'm sorry for what your going through right now.
_________________________
Me 57/H 58
M35 S24 S21
Bomb 3/11 Sep 3/11
Piecing 9/13 12/13 Reconciling

"We can make ourselves miserable, or we can make ourselves happy. The amount of work is the same"~Carlos Castenada

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#2245938 - 05/17/12 09:51 AM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: labug]
Crimson Offline
Member

Registered: 11/16/11
Posts: 1286
19, to be exact, CV. Much earlier we had discussed it and I told her I was willing to be flexible because she was showing signs of wanting to work on R....even said as much. Under those circumstances, I was will to do whatever it takes to help her heal and get our family back on track over time. Even if it meant her taking some time off back home with S for a few weeks.

Once she indicated that she didn't want to work on things, i.e. "I would encourage you to go find someone new and have more kids" - that was it for me. Now, I don't know if she was saying that out of anger to hurt me because she was pissed about the settlement hearing, but she said it. And I am taking it as she means it. My ability to be flexible in the name of repairing our lives together is gone. She wanted a lawyer, she wanted a divorce - then she can live with the terms that result from that.

For the record, even under the BEST of circumstances if I would have asked her for 19 consecutive days she would have told me to go to hell. EVERYTHING that I have asked for time-wise (and it hasn't been much) she has rejected- the holidays, parts of his birthday - and so on. I am surprised she doesn't have to book a third seat on the plane for her enormous set of balls.

Sorry, just hurt and angry and in disbelief. And, sadly, still in love. But I know it is time to let it go for now, possibly forever.

Crimson

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#2245945 - 05/17/12 10:06 AM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: labug]
Crimson Offline
Member

Registered: 11/16/11
Posts: 1286
Shaky - what happened in that one year waiting period you set for yourself? What was the period of time filled with? How did you act? How did your w act?

I ask because I am trying to figure out what to do. My friends say dating is not a wise option right now - and I am inclined to believe them there. Though, I do miss going out and enjoying female company - true story. I just know that I am nowhere NEAR emotionally available right now

Anyhoooo, just curious. You don't have to answer if you would rather keep it private.

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#2245985 - 05/17/12 11:45 AM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: Crimson]
Crimson Offline
Member

Registered: 11/16/11
Posts: 1286
Had a nice talk with my mom this morning - who is no longer in the "w is evil" camp - though w would never belive that.

I didn't give much detail, but she kinda thinks W is confused and lost a bit too based on the mixed messages I get from time to time. I told her that it is pretty much time for me to pull back a bit because I don't think me being as "present" as I have been has helped matters much. Maybe it has made things worse.

After the "nasty-gram" she sent yesterday I find it best to not respond. Maybe she will feel bad about it after a few days - maybe not - but it was certainly over the line and intended to hurt me.

As I have said, I still love her tremendously and I STILL hope we can get things ironed out. But at this point, she needs to be away from me if this is to ever get any better.

Crimson

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#2246106 - 05/17/12 05:10 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: Crimson]
sandi2 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/27/07
Posts: 10901
Crimson, you would have had the same outcome in court even if you had not tried to get her to tell you what her idea of working on a R was. Well, I suppose if you had been willing to let her have your S all the time, it could have gone worse.....for you. But if you had not made the attempt to talk about her intentions, you could have spent a good chunk of your life playing the same game and her holding all the cards. It appears that she is guilty of the very things she accused you of doing, only she doesn't see or own her wrong actions.

I hope you will apply "dropping the rope" b/c I think that is the only thing that will have any positive results. I may have already given you my picture of what dropping the rope is, but in case I haven't, I'll cut & paste it. This was to another poster quite some time ago.

"Imagine having a rope in your hand and the other end of that rope was tied around the waist of your W. You do not want her to leave you. You are fighting for your M. So, she is pulling with all her might to get free of you. She wants out of this R! The harder she pulls forward to get away.....the harder you hold back on the rope. You have both of your heels buried into the ground and both hands in a death grip on that rope. Do you have that picture in your mind? Okay, what would happen if suddenly you dropped that rope?

She is pulling so hard with her head looking forward......that when you drop the rope....she will nearly fall over! Suddenly she is free....nothing is holding her back! She stumbles and tries to get her balance. She turns around and looks at you to see why you let go. My question to you is....what will she see?

She does not need to see a man standing there doing nothing but pitifully staring back at her or she'll just walk on. If she sees that man has stopped paying any attention to her and has his mind on something else, then she will be curious to see what got his attention more than she could. She will begin to move in a little be so she can get a closer look. She may start to ask him questions about what he's doing and who he's seeing. She keeps getting a little closer b/c she almost acts as if she's forgotten that she is no longer held by that rope and she can leave. She is free....but she doesn't want to leave now that the man has dropped the rope."

Right now, you need a break from everything, and you need peace. If you'll drop the rope, you'll have peace....and whatever happens will be better for you than her offering you a few crumbs of false hope....only to shoot you down b/c she was wanting more time with the baby. If the day comes that she wants to be with "you" (not the baby), then there just might be a chance.

(((hugs)))
_________________________
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!

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#2246140 - 05/17/12 05:54 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: sandi2]
Crimson Offline
Member

Registered: 11/16/11
Posts: 1286
Thank you for the rest of the "rope" story, Sandi. It makes total sense, and if you recall, it's exactly what happened the last time I went deep into LRT....stopped communicating....traveled a little bit. She became very suspicious and asked a lot of questions. Before you know it, we were back in MC. When I started "trying" again she eventually froze-up over time all over again. So here I am again.

I am dropping dropping the rope 1.) because I want to and 2.) I am short on options that still leave me with a shred of dignity. A few close female friends saw the heated e-mail she sent me yesterday and think that in a few days she will start feeling bad about it because it was a heated over-reaction. Frankly, I don't know if she will or won't - I just know that there is no way in hell I am reaching out to her after that.

It sux, because every thread of my moral fiber wants to talk to her...wants to make her NOT mad at me....wants her to want to work on things - but she is going to do what she wants to do regardless of my level of desire or participation.

Perhaps it was devine timing, but I had a psych appointment yesterday. I've been seeing this Dr. since October. She is the one that told me my happiness and self esteem have been pegged to however W feels about me at any given time. If she is "good" with me - I am fine. If she isn't - I am a mess. She was 100% right. Considering my w is on the rollercoaster right now - there is no way for me to remain mentally healthy and still follow/care about what she feels towards me. I have got to break that cycle.

She can leave, hell - she HAS. And I do not say this egotisictially because I KNOW that I have my issues to work on - but I think she is bailing out too fast and may have regrets someday. I have a lot of friends that are in my age cluster here in the city and the dating pool is savage, dirty and filled with various scratch and dent pieces that have more baggage than you can imagine. To find someone that loves you....truly loves you, is rare and hard to find. It's worth keeping if you have it - and it's worth fighting for if you've lost it. We DID love each other once - and I still do love and care for her deeply. I just can't keep going in the direction I was. It is going to hurt like hell, but I have got to drop that rope and not look back. I hope I can muster the strength to do it. I hope someday she finds the desire to come back.

Crimson

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#2246145 - 05/17/12 06:12 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: Crimson]
2thepoint Offline
Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1692
Quote:
I have a lot of friends that are in my age cluster here in the city and the dating pool is savage, dirty and filled with various scratch and dent pieces that have more baggage than you can imagine. To find someone that loves you....truly loves you, is rare and hard to find. It's worth keeping if you have it - and it's worth fighting for if you've lost it. We DID love each other once - and I still do love and care for her deeply. I just can't keep going in the direction I was. It is going to hurt like hell, but I have got to drop that rope and not look back.


I really like this, Crimson. Drop the rope and go live your life!
_________________________
Me48 W50 S15 S11
M20 T23
Bomb-9/11; A-11/11; I move out 11/11

It's easy to find our bottom, it is our top that requires cultivation.

Every rough spot adds to our emotional constitution. -Barney Fife

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#2246159 - 05/17/12 06:50 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: Crimson]
sandi2 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/27/07
Posts: 10901
"I've been seeing this Dr. since October. She is the one that told me my happiness and self esteem have been pegged to however W feels about me at any given time. If she is "good" with me - I am fine. If she isn't - I am a mess. She was 100% right."

All who have read your story can agree with that Dr.

You're worth more than what your W has made you out to be! We who have kept up with your thread know that, but we want you to realize it.

"It is going to hurt like hell, but I have got to drop that rope and not look back."

Do you honestly believe it will hurt more than what you've already experienced? I'm not trying to tell you how you feel, but I wonder if you aren't feeling the worst right now. When we've been through the hardest part of "anything" then the rest of it doesn't seem quite as bad. This has been the day you've dreaded all these months. This has to be the hardest part, don't you think?

"I hope I can muster the strength to do it."

You already have the strength, Crimson! You have grown in leaps & bounds....remember? Believe in yourself! Someday, you will be telling your son that who & what kind of man he is does not depend on what some woman thinks of him.....but on what "he" thinks of himself. You will be a living testament to that piece of advice!
_________________________
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!

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#2246205 - 05/17/12 09:08 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: sandi2]
Crimson Offline
Member

Registered: 11/16/11
Posts: 1286
Well, Sandi - maybe it will and maybe it won't. The pain of missing her hasn't died down much - it still aches my heart. Once she has a new boyfriend that is gonna be a dagger. Who wants the woman that they love with another man? Sleeping together in the bed that you bought for her? Male ego stuff? Yeah - probably. But I have a hard time reeling that in. And still to this day I am always compelled to text her and tell her about things that happen during the day - things that remind me of her or something we did together. Over the last few months, the we were kind of able to do that. It will hurt letting that go completely. Just being honest.

Thank you for the kind words, Sandi - you have been helping me a great deal from day one....challenging my thinking, call me out on BS if I put it out there, helping me grow, open my eyes and evolve. I don't know if my WAW will ever come back - but either way I owe you.

Crimson

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#2246273 - 05/18/12 01:22 AM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: Crimson]
bustorama Offline
Member

Registered: 06/26/10
Posts: 519
Originally Posted By: Crimson
I am dropping dropping the rope 1.) because I want to and 2.) I am short on options that still leave me with a shred of dignity.


Dropping the rope is also accepting her and her wishes. Isn't that respecting her the most? "You want to pull away from me and D me? OK, W (drop rope)"

Originally Posted By: Crimson
A few close female friends saw the heated e-mail she sent me yesterday and think that in a few days she will start feeling bad about it because it was a heated over-reaction.


No doubt. That you are so anxious that she is/was mad at you and want to do something to make her less mad at you, to soothe things over has been part of the ongoing problem. You have been owning your W's anger and unhappiness (and even anticipating it, seeking to head it off, corral it, keep it at bay, under control, for fear that she might "REALLY" leave you, D you, etc.).

Let her be mad at you, blame you, SEETHE at you. Let her D you. Let her work through all of her emotions and figure it all out for herself. It's not your responsibility to manage or control or head off her emotions. Don't own her anger or take responsibility for it or try to fix it or defend yourself against it or justify yourself in response to it.

"I'm sorry you feel that way, W."

or, instead of just giving the silent treatment,

"I'm sorry you feel that way, W. I get that you are really upset and disappointed about this situation. I can't respond to you, though, if you are going to communicate with me with such hostility." Boundaries are especially useful if you communicate to others what they are. That way they can choose to mind them (or not), instead of having to mind read your intentions.

Originally Posted By: Crimson
Frankly, I don't know if she will or won't - I just know that there is no way in hell I am reaching out to her after that.


That's right, don't accept crap behavior from her or anyone else. You can acknowledge/validate her anger/disappointment, etc., but don't accept her being verbally abusive to you or let yourself be guilt tripped.

Originally Posted By: Crimson
It sux, because every thread of my moral fiber wants to talk to her...wants to make her NOT mad at me....wants her to want to work on things


This is exactly part of the problem. It is the fixer/controller in so many of us. Let her be pissed off. Let her not want to work on things. This is you pulling back on the rope. DROP IT.

Originally Posted By: Crimson
Perhaps it was devine timing, but I had a psych appointment yesterday. I've been seeing this Dr. since October. She is the one that told me my happiness and self esteem have been pegged to however W feels about me at any given time. If she is "good" with me - I am fine. If she isn't - I am a mess. She was 100% right.


In other words, you are (still) not detached. Has your Dr. given you suggestions on how to detach from your W and the R?

Originally Posted By: Crimson
- but I think she is bailing out too fast and may have regrets someday. I have a lot of friends that are in my age cluster here in the city and the dating pool is savage, dirty and filled with various scratch and dent pieces that have more baggage than you can imagine. To find someone that loves you....truly loves you, is rare and hard to find. It's worth keeping if you have it - and it's worth fighting for if you've lost it.


Let her figure this all out herself. You can't show her or tell her. She doesn't feel this way now -- not your responsibility to wait for her or convince her otherwise. She's a grown, thinking woman.

Originally Posted By: Crimson
I hope I can muster the strength to do it.


This you have total control over. So, more than hope, do.

Originally Posted By: Crimson
I hope someday she finds the desire to come back.


This you have no control over. So, better to detach from it.

Crimson [/quote]
_________________________
Me-41
W-37
D10, D6, D3
T-Since 12/2001
Married-9/2004
She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Piecing begins-04/2011
Now-back together
My Thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2079304

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#2246305 - 05/18/12 08:14 AM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: bustorama]
zig Offline
Member

Registered: 02/21/12
Posts: 1855
Loc: KS
crimson, so sorry for your pain and what you are going through. i really hope you can find peace soon, as you 'drop the rope'

it probably doesn't make you feel any better, but i'll say it anyway. everything i've read on this page - your posts and the responses and advice you're getting, is tremendous for me right now. so at the least, realize that what you are going through - all your pain - is also giving others a chance to get to the place they need to get to, maybe a bit sooner than they would have on their own...

what your C said to you - i got the exact same a couple of days ago - a bit more brutally, and it's a painful message to receive, but really an important one - it is the heart of our difficulties - this tie that we insist on allowing, even though everything and everyone around us is screaming 'drop that rope" - it's almost like we can't hear that message and realize that that is the ONLY thing that can save us and possibly save the situation.

i read somewhere, that only when the need for relief from the pain gets bigger than the pain itself are we finally able to let go. so focus on wanting the relief MORE than you want the pain, and it will help you in that direction

take care
zig
_________________________
me 46 H 38
M10yrs T 11
S10
BD ow 8/11
h filed 9/25/12


"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is"


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#2246308 - 05/18/12 08:36 AM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: zig]
vera be fierce Offline
Member

Registered: 04/23/12
Posts: 934
^^great words from busto. I feel for you, Crimson.

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#2246335 - 05/18/12 10:44 AM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: vera be fierce]
Crimson Offline
Member

Registered: 11/16/11
Posts: 1286
Thanks Busto, Zig et. al. -

Busto, you once again hit the nail on the head. I have always attacked things from the point that I can get her to see things in me, that if I could keep her happy maybe she would see things differently. Nope - doesn't seem to be the case. She is going to have to make her own conclusions on divorced life and what it is going to be like. Thus far, I think I have been emotionally subsidizing a small part of it for her. I gotta stop. It does nothing.

Divorce is ugly, L's are ugly....and someone here on these boards told me long ago that I have to learn to separate my W from my L or I will be consumed by anger. I did that, and it has helped. She hasn't - and that is why she was so angry about the results and proceedings at the settlement hearing.

There had been no communication between us AT ALL since she sent the crappy e-mail earlier this week. It's probably the longest blackout we've had since we started back at counseling. I was getting ready this morning and my cell rang and her picture came up. I literally said out loud to myself "oh hell no!" and didn't pick it up. She left a message. It was her having S leave me a voicemail "Hi daddy!" and so on. She was on her way to drop him off with the baby sitter - I pick him up from there tonight and have him till Tuesday night. I am guessing she was trying to throw a little peace offering out there (perhaps?) so that I will let her talk to him/see him while I have him this weekend and beyond. I think I'm going to pass on that. Like I said, I think I am winding down the emotional subsidies until I think we are BOTH at a point that we want to work on the R -- if that point ever comes.

Crimson

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#2246336 - 05/18/12 10:45 AM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: Crimson]
Crimson Offline
Member

Registered: 11/16/11
Posts: 1286
I meant separate my wife from HER lawyer^^^^^^

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#2246338 - 05/18/12 10:49 AM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: Crimson]
vera be fierce Offline
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Registered: 04/23/12
Posts: 934
Good for you for not answering.

You say "peace offering," I say "manipulating." Potato, potahto.

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#2246432 - 05/18/12 02:25 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: vera be fierce]
Crimson Offline
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Registered: 11/16/11
Posts: 1286
Soooo, about an hour after her first call I saw her work number flashing on my phone again. And, like the first time, I did not pick up.

She left about a minute long message - initially letting me know that the baby had a runny nose and cold, asking if I had experienced any problems with him pooping, and so on.

Then she said "I'm kind of bummed out that we're back to square one again and not communicating. I'm hoping we can at least communicate about the baby". She sounded rather sad in tone.

I'm still not biting - I think I am going to hold my ground this weekend and not reach out unless it is a for SURE emergency.

I didn't put us here at square one again - I honestly think her inability at the moment to be civil did - not to be casting blame, but even though I have my role in ALL of this I really did my best to be open, available and communicative. I don't want to play games - but I think it is long overdue for her to feel the backlash of everything that is going on. I am not going to absorb any more of it for her.

Just found it interesting that she called TWICE this morning. In all honestly, I wouldn't even know what to say to her right now.

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#2246435 - 05/18/12 02:31 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: Crimson]
Rick1963 Offline
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Registered: 08/11/11
Posts: 2516
Loc: Piney Land
Hard stuff man. Don't let the anger get to you. keep moving forward
_________________________
M 51
W 50
D 17
Separated 6/22/11 moved out 11/12
Together 26 yrs
Married 16
W Filed for D 7/21/11
Served 9/6/11
D final 8/28/12

“Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be.”

John Wooden






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#2246446 - 05/18/12 02:54 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: Rick1963]
vera be fierce Offline
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Registered: 04/23/12
Posts: 934
Could you maybe reply with a simple text or email saying you didn't notice any "poo" problems and leave it at that (since it is about your child's health, though not an emergency?) Just a thought. I don't have kids so I'm not up on what constitutes a poo emergency.

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#2246453 - 05/18/12 03:09 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: vera be fierce]
2thepoint Offline
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Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1692
Quote:
She left about a minute long message - initially letting me know that the baby had a runny nose and cold, asking if I had experienced any problems with him pooping, and so on.

Then she said "I'm kind of bummed out that we're back to square one again and not communicating. I'm hoping we can at least communicate about the baby". She sounded rather sad in tone.

I'm still not biting - I think I am going to hold my ground this weekend and not reach out unless it is a for SURE emergency.


Crimson, here is where I think you have your opportunity to set your boundary by telling your W that you will only communicate with her regarding matters relating to your S. This way you don't come across as a vindictive jackass. I'm not saying you are. Just establish that boundary and enforce it.
_________________________
Me48 W50 S15 S11
M20 T23
Bomb-9/11; A-11/11; I move out 11/11

It's easy to find our bottom, it is our top that requires cultivation.

Every rough spot adds to our emotional constitution. -Barney Fife

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#2246455 - 05/18/12 03:13 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: vera be fierce]
~ kd ~ Offline
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Registered: 03/20/11
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Loc: Canoe'k-land
You desperately wanted her to tell you what "working on the R" meant to her...

Let her SHOW you...

It's hard not to reach out when there's an appeal like that, as it appears valid, in that it's about the kid...

but, she said something that I see few WAS making the mistake of... she said she wanted to communicate, even if it was about the baby...

The baby is an excuse... I'm sorry if that sounds harsh... but she's clear it's not about the baby... it's about communicating...

Make your choice... but as I said, she needs to SHOW you...

just as YOU need to SHOW HER... your intentions... and boundaries...

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#2246479 - 05/18/12 04:17 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: ~ kd ~]
Crimson Offline
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Registered: 11/16/11
Posts: 1286
As far as the baby goes, she knows very well that I can handle him with a cold/runny nose. Furthermore, she texted much earlier in the week about his pooping and I responded very briefly then. None of what she is reaching out about is critical at all -ergo, no response is needed as far as I see it. These are all existing issues that we both know how to handle rather well.

I don't think I am being vindictive 2TP - at least I hope not. After she told me the week before last that we "shouldn't communicate until after our legal proceedings were over" I send her an e-mail accepting her request and told her that "I would not contact her unless it was about the baby and only if urgent". I think I did an adequate job letting that boundary be known.

If I had to guess (and I admit this is a very self-serving conclusion) I would say she doesn't want to be too removed from the baby while I have him for the next several days, and I have typically gone out of my way to share my time so she doesn't have to miss him as much. Done. I am done with that for now.

I agree with you, KD - I think this is about communicating and/or wanting to communicate on some level as well.

If I think about it honestly, there has never really been a need on her end to work on the R, because I have been doing it for her. Providing her with evertyhing she needs/wants during this separation without asking for anything in return. I share the baby, I help her when she needs me, I babysit when she needs to go out with friends, I share pictures and voice notes from the baby, I let her Skype with him till her heart is content, I've asked her to do things.....really, what has she HAD to do to work on the R? I am kind of in a mindset at this point that if she doesn't like where this is going - then she can work on things in her way if she wants to - then maybe I will re-enagage. Otherwise - this is LITERALLY what divorced life is like as far as I see it. You don't get your kid when you want him, you don't get everything you want out of the settlement, you don't have all the flexibility you want with vacations and other things, and eventually - you will lose a lot of financial flexibility as well.

I don't mean to sound angry....I'm just kind of exhausted and don't know what else to do. What I have been trying surely does not work.

Crimson

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#2246493 - 05/18/12 04:53 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: Crimson]
~ kd ~ Offline
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Registered: 03/20/11
Posts: 4866
Loc: Canoe'k-land
My personal opinion is that I think you are in a good frame of mind and perspective now. Just self check now and then that your actions aren't spiteful.

It is what it is...

My own sitch, I've been doing my best to be accommodating... perhaps a doormat, although to a much lesser degree than ever before...

In the end, in my case... "we" have been all over the place as far as trying to be flexible with schedules... that's not worked for "us"... (and by that, I mean me...) and my W has conceded same.

So we have a basis for which to settle into... and then once we have figured that out... we can introduce some variety into the schedule... and possibly into the R...

But things need to bake as they are, for now...

I suspect the same is necessary for your sitch...

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#2246496 - 05/18/12 04:58 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: Crimson]
sandi2 Offline
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Registered: 06/27/07
Posts: 10901
WELL IT'S ABOUT TIME!!!

No, you're not being vindictive and yes, she's using the baby, and no, DO NOT RESPOND TO HER COMMENT ABOUT "COMMUNICATING"! PLEASE!

If you are serious about dropping the rope, then don't respond to her tricks. Dropping the rope means that you aren't trying to show her in anything. Showtime is over! You don't care if she thinks you're pi$$ed or a jackass or whatever. And as far as an opportunity......(come on, 2thepoint) dropping the rope is not about taking opportunities or trying to show her your boundaries. You let go of the darn rope and let it drop in the sand, not use it to draw a line in the sand.

Don't let anyone talk you into responding to her. I'm telling you that you're doing the right thing. And I think it's okay to feel angry. If that's what it takes to stop you from going all (in Pup's famous words) melty-man. It's the first time you've had the spunk not to give in whenever she'd send you a picture of S. So, it didn't work. Next, she'll try something else. Probably try to make you feel guilty for not responding and asking about S. Want to make a little bet?
_________________________
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!

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#2246498 - 05/18/12 05:08 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: Crimson]
zig Offline
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Registered: 02/21/12
Posts: 1855
Loc: KS
crimson - do you meditate?

i hope i don't come across as too critical, but to me it sounds as if you are both using the baby in your tug of war. you're both very angry at each other and from all you've written today, all i hear is wait until i get that baby , she's not getting anywhere near it.

please try and see this from a slightly different perspective. imagine if your baby was , say 10 or 12 yrs - the child would be picking up big time on this energy. i believe very strongly that most people don't realize that babies too pick up on these energies, no matter how you think you are hiding them.

i know you are hurting really bad right now - i imagine all the pain that you have been holding in since all this started, is cascading up and out, but you do have a baby, and you are BOTH that baby's parents.

i would like to ask you to be generous in this - to the point and beyond of altruism. if you need to fight over something, or hold on to something, choose something else, not your child.

i know this next bit will be hard to hear, but try to find some compassion for your wife right now, and more importantly for yourself. see how you are BOTH hurting - her anger is a front for deep pain and so is yours. it will give you a little peace, if not a lot, to go to that place inside yourself and say - 'we are both humans that err, and hurt and do stupid crazy sh$t, and there are no rules that say one person cannot do more crazy stuff than another"

give yourself that gift right now - force it on yourself , so that you can already begin your path to healing from these recent events

i hope you have a beautiful time with your s when you pick him up today - just allow his beautiful innocent energy to envelope you and while you hold him in your arms, send a warm loving thought to your wife, appreciating how because of her, you get to hold and have this child and then forgive her a little - it will make you feel so much better.

zig
_________________________
me 46 H 38
M10yrs T 11
S10
BD ow 8/11
h filed 9/25/12


"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is"


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#2246503 - 05/18/12 05:21 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: sandi2]
Crimson Offline
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Registered: 11/16/11
Posts: 1286
I will not make that bet, Sandi - because I fully expect her to text or SOMETHING this weekend (my guess is she'll ask "how's my BB doing?") and I am not going to respond. At all. Then she will text - probably pissed - that she is "disappointed" that I have not kept her in the loop about the baby and that she "hoped that we could be amicable". Just a guess, though.

Again - if she wants things to be better than this SHE can work on it. And yes, I know it will come back to bite me - she won't text pictures to me and I won't get to hear from him at all when I don't have him - I'm going to have to accept that.

For now, I am done. In a week, a month - who knows - but today I have kind of had it. I have worked too hard for her to tell me she "doesn't trust me", that "I am being manipulative", that my "flexibility has conditions"....and that "this is coming from a man who says he loves his wife and son". Too much for me right now....that pretty much tore it.

How do YOU think she will respond, Sandi??? Because if I can make it to Tuesday without talking to her I am going to do just that.

Crimson

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#2246512 - 05/18/12 05:43 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: Crimson]
vera be fierce Offline
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Registered: 04/23/12
Posts: 934
You sound a lot stronger than you did not so long ago. The transformation is very evident in this thread alone. Again, you know your situation best. You have clarified that not responding works for you. It's great to see you stating what YOU need to do for YOU.

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#2246515 - 05/18/12 05:48 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: Crimson]
bustorama Offline
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Registered: 06/26/10
Posts: 519
She'll get angry. She may get sad/tears. She will hurt. What's happening now is not her vision of how she wanted things to be. The same that it is not your vision of how you wanted things to be. Very emotional and painful time for both of you.

It's healthy to take this time to yourself to heal, not unleash, lash out, or ruminate angrily on her. Bond with your S.

I agree with Sandi that you should not get drawn into a conversation with her or have her reaction be a concern of yours.

If she keeps calling you over and over about non-emergent things with the S and crossing your boundary, you perhaps can restate your boundary as civilly as you can ONCE and only ONCE. "W, we agreed before not to talk unless it was an emergency related to our S until the D proceedings are done. That is what is best for me right now, and I am going to stick with it. I would appreciate it if you did the same. If you call about non-emergency things, I won't respond."

If you do this, it should be for YOU, not for HER (i.e., because her calling you about non-emergency things is stressful for you and makes it hard for you to detach from the situation, not because you are concerned about the effect you not responding has on her).
_________________________
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W-37
D10, D6, D3
T-Since 12/2001
Married-9/2004
She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Piecing begins-04/2011
Now-back together
My Thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2079304

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#2246517 - 05/18/12 05:51 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: bustorama]
bustorama Offline
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Registered: 06/26/10
Posts: 519
It sounds like you are ok with not responding at all right now, though. She may (will) get more persistent in testing this boundary, so think ahead about how you will cope with or handle this to keep enforcing your boundary.
_________________________
Me-41
W-37
D10, D6, D3
T-Since 12/2001
Married-9/2004
She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Piecing begins-04/2011
Now-back together
My Thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2079304

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#2246519 - 05/18/12 05:52 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: Crimson]
2thepoint Offline
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Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1692
When I mentioned earlier about taking the opportunity to establish the boundary about limiting communication to kid issues only, it was in the context of assuming that she did not know that that was a firm boundary. We often talk here about mind reading and how it does us no good. I would think that ought to work both ways.

If the communication boundary hasn't been firmly established, then it seems like you ought to set it in place. To my way of thinking, boundaries are great as long as all involved parties know what they are. If you wait until they are crossed to inform of their existence then that seems like a problem to me.

If on the other hand you are confident she understands this as a boundary, then I would agree, do not contact her. If not, then I stand by my original post on the matter.

Crimson, if you are truly ready to drop the rope, then by all means, do it.
_________________________
Me48 W50 S15 S11
M20 T23
Bomb-9/11; A-11/11; I move out 11/11

It's easy to find our bottom, it is our top that requires cultivation.

Every rough spot adds to our emotional constitution. -Barney Fife

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#2246521 - 05/18/12 05:54 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: 2thepoint]
2thepoint Offline
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Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1692
And I agree with verab754 You do seem to be at a different place then even just a few short days ago. This is good!
_________________________
Me48 W50 S15 S11
M20 T23
Bomb-9/11; A-11/11; I move out 11/11

It's easy to find our bottom, it is our top that requires cultivation.

Every rough spot adds to our emotional constitution. -Barney Fife

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#2246531 - 05/18/12 06:35 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: 2thepoint]
Crimson Offline
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Registered: 11/16/11
Posts: 1286
She forced my hand.

She texted me and asked me if I would be picking S up from babysitter today - I have never NOT picked him up when I am supposed to.

I didn't respond.

She texted again 20 minutes later

"If I don't hear from you, I'll plan on picking him up". I waited about 30 minutes and responded "yes".

WTF? It's like she's bending my arm to get me to talk. I am hopeful that this is the last I will hear from her this weekend, but I doubt it.

I don't know if I am angry, tired, or what.....I just feel like I need to be "here" right now.

Zig, I see your point - but I don't think I am using my S as a pawn. I have been VERY careful not to do that at all. I just have decided for now that path that I was on - being excessively generous with time and communcation in the name of working on our R - is not good for now. Maybe it will be later, but right now I feel as though I have done a lot and I have just been attacked for it. Next week could be different - but I am done taking steps forward towards her. I am easy to find, and she knows I want to work on things at some point.

Crimson

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#2246554 - 05/18/12 08:11 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: ]
Rick1963 Offline
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Registered: 08/11/11
Posts: 2516
Loc: Piney Land
Crimson take a deep breath. Set the boundaries about the TMs ASAP.. I have learned that sometimes people create a crisis when there isn't one. They do that to confuse and get what they want. So what I do is step back and observe. Listen and think. Than I act. Harder to do when you are emotionally involved but worth the try.
_________________________
M 51
W 50
D 17
Separated 6/22/11 moved out 11/12
Together 26 yrs
Married 16
W Filed for D 7/21/11
Served 9/6/11
D final 8/28/12

“Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be.”

John Wooden






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#2246578 - 05/18/12 10:14 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: Crimson]
~ kd ~ Offline
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Registered: 03/20/11
Posts: 4866
Loc: Canoe'k-land
Originally Posted By: Crimson
"If I don't hear from you, I'll plan on picking him up".


My W does this to me. Asking me about stuff that has already been established as a precedence.

Unfortunately, I don't have any different response than what you did, which is a single word answer if able.

So at this point, I am asserting the exact schedule as outlined in the SA. There are online, shared calendars that you might utilize to further prevent these times of momentary confusion she might be having.

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#2246587 - 05/18/12 11:22 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: ~ kd ~]
Crimson Offline
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Registered: 11/16/11
Posts: 1286
Sorry I didn't answer your question, Zig. No, I do not meditate formally. But I have been trying to learn how. Believe it or not, it is very VERY hard for me to focus my mind into silence.

KD, it was by no means a moment of confusion (I would suspect you are being sarcastic!). She know very well that I know the schedule and that I ALWAYS am where I say I will be at the time I say I will be there. That's one of the few upsides to low-grade OCD....punctuality. She just wanted to force me to respond....she knows I have NEVER failed to pick up S when I am supposed to.

Holding this line is difficult, because everything in me wants her to not be in pain or hurt or miss our son. But I have GOT to get off of this roller coaster and she has GOT to start accepting the reality of what is going on here.

I don't know if any of this will ever help my cause to save my family....I won't lie and say that I don't want that still. In fact, I am fearful that closing her out will just push her away more - but bringing her in closer didn't do much good over the long term. Stop doing what doesn't work.....cheesless tunnels....and so on.

I am going to do the best I can to put her out of my mind and enjoy my son when I have him

Crimson

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#2246694 - 05/19/12 01:58 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: 2thepoint]
sandi2 Offline
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Registered: 06/27/07
Posts: 10901
Appologies, 2tP. I get overly passionate in my quest to help Crimson hold back from repeating his old responses with W. I shouldn't have taken a dig at you.
_________________________
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!

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#2246702 - 05/19/12 02:37 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: sandi2]
2thepoint Offline
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Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1692
No worries, Sandi. We're all rooting for the same team.
_________________________
Me48 W50 S15 S11
M20 T23
Bomb-9/11; A-11/11; I move out 11/11

It's easy to find our bottom, it is our top that requires cultivation.

Every rough spot adds to our emotional constitution. -Barney Fife

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#2246720 - 05/19/12 03:48 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: 2thepoint]
scaredsilly Offline
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Registered: 01/12/12
Posts: 1219
"Believe it or not, it is very VERY hard for me to focus my mind into silence."
Ha! none of us in the same boat right now would have a minute of disbelief of this! ;-)
_________________________
M:63
H:53
S:41, SS:28, SS:25, SD:23
M:15
T:16

Bomb:12/17/11, "I think we should go our separate ways."
H moves to his mother's house, 4/1/12
12/21/12: H moves back home, piecing


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#2246726 - 05/19/12 04:03 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: scaredsilly]
adinva Offline
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Registered: 09/06/11
Posts: 2762
Loc: VA
What you describe is a characteristic of humans, not unique to you.

Do things that are hard, it's good for you!
_________________________
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6/15/11 IDLY
6/11-12/12 in-home sep
12/16/12 H moved out
Nothing signed yet
____
Be the change you want to see in the world (Gandhi)

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#2246743 - 05/19/12 05:01 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: Crimson]
zig Offline
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Registered: 02/21/12
Posts: 1855
Loc: KS
Believe it or not, it is very VERY hard for me to focus my mind into silence.

i know - i'm laughing - because that's what i thought meditation was about for a very long time and couldn't even attempt it.

if you don't mind - i'll offer you my thoughts on what it is about.

here's what i understand about the attitude one could take - and for some who have read or listened to Pema Chodron, i find myself using the same phrases she does...

it's about cultivating certain aspects that are already within us. the first is Gentleness, then generosity towards ourselves and others - the generosity of acknowledging that just like ourselves, others have the same struggle and pain, albeit differently .

when we acknowledge our own shortcomings in a gentle way without JUDGEMENT TOWARDS OURSELVES FIRST, then over the course of our lives, we can begin to spread that out to the people around us.

so how does that apply to the actual meditation? you start by sitting or lying down in a position that is comfortable for you - and just becoming aware of your breath - just "breathing in, breathing out" and eventually thoughts will come into your mind - all kinds - gentle ones, nice ones, obsessive ones - lots of obsessive ones!!

and then this is how you apply the gentleness - all you have to do, is acknowledge to yourself that you are thinking and then gently let it go, with lots of forgiveness and gentleness to yourself and go back to your breathe. and you will do this all through the meditation - go back to your breathe, find yourself thinking again inadvertently, acknowledge it gently and go back to your breathe. each time you find your mind wandering, you say to yourself "thinking" with no judgement and then go back to your breathe.

you may find yourself thinking - well how can that be meditation - but after you do this, you WILL emerge from it feeling the soothing effects of meditation, no matter how much or little you were able to empty your mind.

and some days you will be surprised that you emptied it quite a bit and somedays not at all, but what pema says that is most important is that one does not criticize oneself, or judge oneself for it being one way or the other. you shouldn't feel more good because you did what you thought was a better job at it that day, and you shouldn't feel more bad, because you thought you didn't do it as well as you should

meditation - is about giving yourself that short span of time during your day when you stay as completely in the present moment as you are capable of - and you do that by practicing bringing yourself back to the present (the breathe) as many time as you possibly can

when i am going through the rest of my day, and the thoughts are cycling through my head and super fast speed, and i can't think straight about what i should do or say or react, i will sometimes be able to stop myself and say "thinking" and it activates my brain into the meditative state and if i'm lucky i can self-soothe in that moment.

i hope you will try this out - even half heartedly during this difficult time for you - it's a refuge for your mind - a much needed one in the midst of the chaos and craziness

zig
_________________________
me 46 H 38
M10yrs T 11
S10
BD ow 8/11
h filed 9/25/12


"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is"


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#2246766 - 05/19/12 07:13 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: zig]
zig Offline
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Registered: 02/21/12
Posts: 1855
Loc: KS
wanted to add - when i am having a really hard time, i found this above way to be too challenging.and then i realized that i could use a guided meditation where someone else is instructing me and it took a little of the pressure off

one that has helped me tremendously - and i am still trying to figure out what it is doing to my brain - i found on u-tube. hope it's okay to mention it here.
if you put Abraham Hicks - Breathing meditation into the utube search, it should come up

someone posted it - and its not complete - it stops abruptly, but it has a special count for breathing with this unusual music - and the effect is quite amazing - at least for me - i really come out of it CALMED DOWN - and its only 15 mins, so i do it 3 or 4 times a day.

hope it helps someone else

zig
_________________________
me 46 H 38
M10yrs T 11
S10
BD ow 8/11
h filed 9/25/12


"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is"


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#2246786 - 05/19/12 09:11 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: zig]
Crimson Offline
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Registered: 11/16/11
Posts: 1286
So I have done no reaching out at all today and I got the "how is S?" text a bit ago. I am not going to respond. I don't think she cares to communicate....she probably just wants to know how he's doing. Still....I feel like I am being cruel by not answering. I won't - but I still feel bad about it.

Crimson

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#2246792 - 05/19/12 10:42 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: Crimson]
scaredsilly Offline
Member

Registered: 01/12/12
Posts: 1219
she really needs to let go of you helping her connect with what's going on with the boy when she doesn't have him. that's what she gives up with the path she's choosing. if you were remarried, would she be texting you like this? i doubt it. she still want to pull on the rope.
_________________________
M:63
H:53
S:41, SS:28, SS:25, SD:23
M:15
T:16

Bomb:12/17/11, "I think we should go our separate ways."
H moves to his mother's house, 4/1/12
12/21/12: H moves back home, piecing


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#2246800 - 05/20/12 12:02 AM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: scaredsilly]
Crimson Offline
Member

Registered: 11/16/11
Posts: 1286
I agree with you SS. It just tugs at my heart to know that she is over at hurt place wondering about him....missing him....hurting. Regardless, I agree that that is a consequence of the choice that she is making. I, too, will not have the luxury of knowing what is going on with him when he is away from me and it breaks my heart, too. I still love her and hate to see her in pain - but I guess this is my first time really practicing tough love.

Crimson

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#2246819 - 05/20/12 05:24 AM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: Crimson]
scaredsilly Offline
Member

Registered: 01/12/12
Posts: 1219
maybe you're not being "cruel" but helpful? you're doing her a favor. you're showing her the consequences of her choice so she will know it's not a good one. stringing that consequence out by softening it just made it go on and on.

it's like being a parent. sometimes the worst thing we can do is feel sorry for our kids because it keeps us from letting them know cause and effect.
_________________________
M:63
H:53
S:41, SS:28, SS:25, SD:23
M:15
T:16

Bomb:12/17/11, "I think we should go our separate ways."
H moves to his mother's house, 4/1/12
12/21/12: H moves back home, piecing


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#2246876 - 05/20/12 12:36 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: scaredsilly]
Crimson Offline
Member

Registered: 11/16/11
Posts: 1286
Text from w this morning...."Can I hear S's voice, please". Still, I won't respond. I feel terrible. I don't like to see her hurting.....I know probably shouldn't care, but I do. It hurts me to hurt her....and it's a matter of time before she accuses me of using the baby as leverage. It's a no win.

Crimson

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#2246877 - 05/20/12 12:42 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: Crimson]
Rick1963 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/11/11
Posts: 2516
Loc: Piney Land
Crimson u are not hurting her. She is hurting herself with her choices. Stay strong man. Don't break she will get the hint. Keep at it and have fun with kid. They grow up super fast.
_________________________
M 51
W 50
D 17
Separated 6/22/11 moved out 11/12
Together 26 yrs
Married 16
W Filed for D 7/21/11
Served 9/6/11
D final 8/28/12

“Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be.”

John Wooden






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#2246878 - 05/20/12 12:43 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: Crimson]
scaredsilly Offline
Member

Registered: 01/12/12
Posts: 1219
you are not hurting her. she's the captain of the ship. are you using the baby for leverage? no, you're protecting yourself from her using you. you're a better dad when you protect yourself. you could try texting her to tell her to stop intruding on your time with your son? this is the way divorce works.
_________________________
M:63
H:53
S:41, SS:28, SS:25, SD:23
M:15
T:16

Bomb:12/17/11, "I think we should go our separate ways."
H moves to his mother's house, 4/1/12
12/21/12: H moves back home, piecing


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#2246882 - 05/20/12 01:09 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: scaredsilly]
jks Offline
Member

Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 623
Loc: USA
This reminds me so much of my H when he hadn't seen or talked to his kids for a week and continually asked to have them call him while they were with me. I specifically asked him not to contact me unless it was absolutely necessary and he continued to do it anyway. What he didn't understand is that the more he contacted me the more it put me in a bad mood and it affected how I was around my children.

I was working on getting to a happy place so I could be the best mother I could be, and I felt like H kept pulling me back down. This is not to be vindictive and hurtful. It is your way to heal. To move on. Isn't that what they wanted anyway?
_________________________
Me: 32 H: 32
M 9 yrs
#1 D7 #2 S5 #3 D2
Bomb 8/12/11
H moved out 8/14/11
PA started w/H & OW in 1/12 - found out 3/24/12
Got my own place 8/25/12
H & OW move in together 9/15/12
Still married.



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#2246890 - 05/20/12 02:04 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: ]
Crimson Offline
Member

Registered: 11/16/11
Posts: 1286
Thanks, everyone.

It's hard to stomach, but I feel like I am doing the right thing. It's just a conflict because you live your life for the most part thinking that the "right" thing never hurts anyone.....particularly someone that you love. It is hard for me to not respond - but I am doing my best to stick to it.

I suppose I am just cringing inside because I know the moment is coming when I get accused of all sorts of things like using the baby, looking out for MY interests and not his...somehow I know in her eyes I will be the villain in all of this.

I know this process as a whole is not easy for her....she has said as much. But I think I have done too much to make it easier which seems to work against any hope of working on marriage - even after divorce. It hurts, you're right GM. It hurts like hell and there is a lot that you miss - a lot that just passes you by. It has already happened in these last several months. But I always have been flexible and accommodating in terms of helping her not miss the baby when I have him....at least I think so.

I keep flip-flopping between these moments where I think "good, let HER have the angst for awhile", vs. "how can you let her hurt like this?" - I go from bravado to sadness again and again.

Being the accommodating one got me nothing in this except being called manipulative and distrustful....how?! So I am trying a different track.

More than anything, I just hope that I get to feeling better. Right now, not so much - but many it will get easier over time.

Crimson

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#2246923 - 05/20/12 06:54 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: Crimson]
scaredsilly Offline
Member

Registered: 01/12/12
Posts: 1219
Man up. Sorry, but you need to hear this. Stop being her whipping boy. When the accusations start, walk away. That woman has no respect for you.
_________________________
M:63
H:53
S:41, SS:28, SS:25, SD:23
M:15
T:16

Bomb:12/17/11, "I think we should go our separate ways."
H moves to his mother's house, 4/1/12
12/21/12: H moves back home, piecing


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#2246949 - 05/20/12 08:43 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: scaredsilly]
unbidden Offline
Member

Registered: 04/23/12
Posts: 627
Yes, I think you need to do some 180s for a bit. Let her feel the consequences of her own choices.

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#2246973 - 05/20/12 10:03 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: unbidden]
adinva Offline
Member

Registered: 09/06/11
Posts: 2762
Loc: VA
Crimson, I hope you can get to a point where you can read your last post and see it differently. First of all, are you 'hurting' your wife, REALLY, or just not bending over backwards to make her feel happy? She is divorcing you, she is splitting up time with your son between you and herself, and you think your role is to make her feel happy all the time? Why do you think your role is to make her or everyone happy?

When your S grows up and feels unhappy if he doesn't have a BMW and a smartphone at 16, will you accommodate that too? Or will you 'hurt' him by saying no? You love him, right? So you'll make him happy all the time?

The moment when she accuses you of stuff, is what this board helpfully refers to as "spew." You know yourself. Stop listening to the spew.

The flip flopping you're doing, on both sides, is about you thinking you're doing something to make her feel happy or sad. She feels happy or sad because of things she thinks about what you're doing. You can't control her thoughts. You can't make them reasonable or what you would think.

You agreed on terms. The ink is still drying on them, perhaps you can be flexible later on but if for now you think it best to stick to the terms, then stick to the terms. Are you doing it to punish her? Or to protect your rights? Should it matter what she says about it to you?

Yeah, I hope you get to feeling better too. I'm sorry you're going through this. Hang in there.
_________________________
Adinva 48 H48
T22 M19 S16 S14
6/15/11 IDLY
6/11-12/12 in-home sep
12/16/12 H moved out
Nothing signed yet
____
Be the change you want to see in the world (Gandhi)

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#2247149 - 05/21/12 01:54 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: Crimson]
Valeska19 Offline
Member

Registered: 05/28/11
Posts: 1240
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Crimson,
I completely understand your feelings.

And it's hard.. and it will get harder if she gets accusatory and spits venom.

But having just come out on the other end... it's a necessary process.

I spent 5 months giving my wife tough love. It some ways, I hated every minute of it. I felt like a piece of sh!t.

And when she didn't respect the boundaries, I was given... I got angry with her and I tried to enforce them more...

.. Let's just say.. these were HUGE learning points for me.

However it taught me how to love and protect myself. That setting boundaries was what healthy people do and if I stuck to them long enough - she would come around.

I also really learned alot about who I wanted to be.

I think there was always a part of me that always acted kind or did loving actions because deep down - I was hoping it would bring my wife closer to me...

and when it didn't. I tried something else. I tried going dark and not speaking to her at all. And..well that didn't work either.

So after 5 months of hard boundaries, ignoring calls, thinking and protecting myself.. I finally learned something...

... it wasn't about what worked for her, it was what worked for ME.

So NOW my new actions are what works for me with no expectations of wife or reconc.

I am nice because I want to be. I am firm because I want/need to be. I respect her because that's how I want to treat her. I set boundaries because I am worthy of respecting.

See the pattern - the spotlight is on me.. not her.

I'm not saying that your w doesn't need to see what a D would look like and how she can't cake eat.

I'm not saying there isn't a thing or two she needs to learn should she chose a life w/o you...

...I'm saying it's not really your place to "teach" her. You can allow it to happen, but don't focus on it.

Actions can look the same - but the motives can be really different.

So let YOUR motives speak on YOUR character.

Make sense?
_________________________
M(f): 31
XW: 33
M: 5
D'ed: 8/12

Show empathy when there's pain. Show grace when warranted. Kindness in the midst of anger. Faith in the face of fear.

Love at all costs because you are loved well.

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#2247167 - 05/21/12 02:28 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: Valeska19]
labug Online
Member

Registered: 11/24/11
Posts: 8548
Loc: Sonoran Desert
^^^Golden!
_________________________
Me 57/H 58
M35 S24 S21
Bomb 3/11 Sep 3/11
Piecing 9/13 12/13 Reconciling

"We can make ourselves miserable, or we can make ourselves happy. The amount of work is the same"~Carlos Castenada

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#2247187 - 05/21/12 03:55 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: Valeska19]
Crimson Offline
Member

Registered: 11/16/11
Posts: 1286
Excellent post - thanks, Val. I will read this a few times.

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#2247209 - 05/21/12 04:32 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: Crimson]
vera be fierce Offline
Member

Registered: 04/23/12
Posts: 934
Well said, val.

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#2247218 - 05/21/12 05:03 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: vera be fierce]
BklynMom Offline
Member

Registered: 09/29/11
Posts: 1755
Very nice post Val.
_________________________
----
M 39
H 35
D5,D4
M 4
T 9
ILYBNILWY 5/18/11
Left 7/11/11
Divorced 12/1/13


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#2247721 - 05/23/12 09:21 AM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: Valeska19]
sayitaintso Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/11
Posts: 951
Originally Posted By: Valeska19
So after 5 months of hard boundaries, ignoring calls, thinking and protecting myself.. I finally learned something...

... it wasn't about what worked for her, it was what worked for ME.

So NOW my new actions are what works for me with no expectations of wife or reconc.

I am nice because I want to be. I am firm because I want/need to be. I respect her because that's how I want to treat her. I set boundaries because I am worthy of respecting.

See the pattern - the spotlight is on me.. not her.



IMO this ^^^^ is the essence of db'ing. Well done & said Val!!
_________________________
Me- 34 W-33
S15 S10 S6
Married- 11 Together- 18
Bomb- 6-2011
WAW moves out- 8-2011

"Nothing in the Universe can stop you from letting go and starting over at anytime"- Guy Finley

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#2248252 - 05/24/12 04:22 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: sayitaintso]
Crazyville Offline
Member

Registered: 01/07/12
Posts: 1047
C, anything new? Haven't heard from you in a bit.
_________________________
Me:49 WAW H:59
T:19.5 M:19
S:13

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