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#2241478 - 04/28/12 06:02 PM Re: Is this cake eating 5 [Re: ncl]
NLW Offline
Member

Registered: 09/08/11
Posts: 1283
Hi ncl,
Thanks for the positive perspective on my D16's anger outbursts. I hadn't thought of it like this, but you're right, poor kid does have to vent somewhere. She has been acting better towards me since that morning, too.

Good to hear about the cycle you can see in my H's behaviour, too. I need to stop enabling this sort of thing. If I can just swing the money to get some legal clout behind my requests that we separate finances, things will get better, I'm sure.

On the point of him saying he still wants a D - he's not often used this term. His big word is separation. And he seems to want to keep working to his 5-year plan for keeping finances shared. But once or twice he has threatened D - if i don't do what he says with regard to money.

I swing between seeing his plan as an indication that he is still conflicted about really cutting loose from us, and seeing it as a selfish ploy to prop up his business.

Thanks for putting up with my wheel spinning. I feel that i am getting better at living life as if he's gone - not there completely yet, but more detached than i used to be.
Just trying to wait it all out and keep the road home paved and smooth. (It's all SO classic MLC). I do benefit so much from hearing how you see my sitch. So thanks again for giving so generously of your time and care.

Hugs, NLW

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#2241480 - 04/28/12 06:09 PM Re: Is this cake eating 5 [Re: zig]
NLW Offline
Member

Registered: 09/08/11
Posts: 1283
Originally Posted By: zig
i read somewhere that be grateful when some one is angry at you - because instead of them turning to despair, you can help them release some of the anger and frustration and hurt they are holding inside.

((((( ))))))

zig


Zig, Thanks so much for your post to me. It really helped to hear what you had to say about my D16.

And yes - I think you're right, it is notable that H is now getting mad at her.
He is in a cycle of being very down and out of control again. It's easier for him to focus his anger on her at the moment, as I am no longer such an easy target.

And he is so guilty for what he is doing to the kids, I'm sure.

I hope things have been going well for you.

Best, NLW

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#2242215 - 05/02/12 12:03 AM Re: Is this cake eating 5 [Re: NLW]
NLW Offline
Member

Registered: 09/08/11
Posts: 1283
Just got some interesting intell from a conversation with H over the phone.

He'd rung to ask (as he does every day) what time he could collect the kids from school.

I told him that i'd just heard some terrible news - a friend had lost her BFF to suicide.
Our friend was godmother to this woman's 11-year-old S.

The dead woman's H and S found her in their garage.

So profoundly sad.

When I told my H that the woman had done it because of gambling debts and said something like "as if money could ever be that important", my H reacted with:

"It's not the money, it's the judgement that other people put on you. That's what does it".

He was talking about himself. And, I presume, about the judgement he felt from me over being a failure and losing all of our money.

How to come back from this?

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#2242251 - 05/02/12 07:49 AM Re: Is this cake eating 5 [Re: NLW]
zig Offline
Member

Registered: 02/21/12
Posts: 1855
Loc: KS
hi nlw -

h accused me of judging him during the first therapy session .

i was so upset about it - really really upset. and afterwards realized after talking to my friend and mil, that what he is really saying is that he is judging himself more than anyone else is judging him.

it maybe the same here - your h is talking more about how he is judging himself, i think.

as for "coming back from this" - don't take this burden on your self - it's not yours to carry. if your actions and words are not judgmental - you know that he's talking about himself.

my first reaction was also, how can i change that image in h's mind - but remember about not believing what they say - i think it really applies here.

they are scrambling hard to justify everything they are doing, and the longer the sitch has gone on, the more they are scrambling.

also - no assuming , remember - drives us crazy. so chalk the comment up to another attempt at him trying to provoke you (i bet , in the old days you would have both landed up arguing about it) or just unnerve you, let it go, and go back to doing your own thing.

btw - calling everyday, about picking up the kids?

is there a potential boundary setting scenario here on your part? can you be too busy to pick up the phone? or send a text earlier in the day and give him the time - there's an opportunity for a juicy 180 there on your part.

there's something about him calling everyday that smacks of keeping you pulled in and him calling the shots - especially over something like that , which could be handled differently?

hope you have a great day today

zig
_________________________
me 46 H 38
M10yrs T 11
S10
BD ow 8/11
h filed 9/25/12


"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is"


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#2242275 - 05/02/12 09:16 AM Re: Is this cake eating 5 [Re: zig]
labug Offline
Member

Registered: 11/24/11
Posts: 8564
Loc: Sonoran Desert
Judgment, blaming, shame all can ruin a R.

I agree, NLW, it's not yours to carry. I think it's monumental that 1) he recognizes this and 2)he articulated it.

He's thinking.

I talk about this book a lot because it was such an a-ha moment for me-How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It This book gave me such a better understanding of how devastating blame and shame can be to men.
_________________________
Me 57/H 58
M35 S24 S21
Bomb 3/11 Sep 3/11
Piecing 9/13 12/13 Reconciling

"We can make ourselves miserable, or we can make ourselves happy. The amount of work is the same"~Carlos Castenada

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#2242278 - 05/02/12 09:27 AM Re: Is this cake eating 5 [Re: labug]
zig Offline
Member

Registered: 02/21/12
Posts: 1855
Loc: KS
i've got to check out that book - but question - if they are blaming and shaming themselves - what's our role or response?

h consistently tells me how guilty he feels about what he is doing. i used to say "you shouldn't feel guilty, it is what it is.." now i don't really respond, but have to admit i'm thinking and pretty close to saying - well if you're feeling guilty isn't that a pretty good sign that you should stop doing it?
_________________________
me 46 H 38
M10yrs T 11
S10
BD ow 8/11
h filed 9/25/12


"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is"


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#2242284 - 05/02/12 09:40 AM Re: Is this cake eating 5 [Re: zig]
labug Offline
Member

Registered: 11/24/11
Posts: 8564
Loc: Sonoran Desert
"you shouldn't feel guilty, it is what it is.."

I'm sure you know how this sounds... I used to do the same thing, because I knew how everyone should feel about everything. It's their issue to fix and trying to fix it for them sends the message, "you can't do this, you need me to help."

Accuray wrote a little more about it here:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...510#Post2241510
_________________________
Me 57/H 58
M35 S24 S21
Bomb 3/11 Sep 3/11
Piecing 9/13 12/13 Reconciling

"We can make ourselves miserable, or we can make ourselves happy. The amount of work is the same"~Carlos Castenada

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#2242310 - 05/02/12 10:57 AM Re: Is this cake eating 5 [Re: labug]
adinva Offline
Member

Registered: 09/06/11
Posts: 2762
Loc: VA
I wonder if the correct response to "i feel so guilty" should be something like, "that must be painful." End of subject. ???
_________________________
Adinva 48 H48
T22 M19 S16 S14
6/15/11 IDLY
6/11-12/12 in-home sep
12/16/12 H moved out
Nothing signed yet
____
Be the change you want to see in the world (Gandhi)

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#2242312 - 05/02/12 10:59 AM Re: Is this cake eating 5 [Re: labug]
zig Offline
Member

Registered: 02/21/12
Posts: 1855
Loc: KS
thanks labug - as i said - "i used to say..."

after the discussion with kaffediem about enabling specific patterns, i stopped!!


thanks for the link - i really need to read those 2 books
_________________________
me 46 H 38
M10yrs T 11
S10
BD ow 8/11
h filed 9/25/12


"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is"


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#2242360 - 05/02/12 01:29 PM Re: Is this cake eating 5 [Re: zig]
Accuray Offline
Member

Registered: 07/20/11
Posts: 2088
NLW,

It comes down to what you want. If he's beating himself up and you agree you can say nothing.

Men want to feel like good providers, it's an evolutionary built-in thing versus something they can control.

So if your H lost all his and your money, and says he feels very guilty, feels like a failure, etc. there's a few ways you can go. Generally reinforcing his guilty feelings aren't going to help, but neither are false reassurances, and that leaves you in a tough place.

I think the key is to find anything you can truly admire about the situation and point it out. For instance, the fact that he acknowledges what's gone wrong and feels badly about it is actually a good thing. You could appreciate that he feels responsible for your financial situation, and tell him you're glad that he's thinking through things. It's a common story that many wildly successful people failed several times before they "made it big", and the lessons that those failures impart are what seems to provide the fuel for eventual success.

You can say things like "Look, we're in a tough spot (makes it a mutual issue, not just his). People run into financial problems every day for any number of reasons (normalizing). I'm sure you've learned a lot about your business and about yourself through this process, and I'm proud of you for that. It would be easy to make this everyone else's fault, or write it up to bad luck, but the fact that you're owning the situation shows character, and that makes me feel good."

Hopefully he volunteers what he's learned, what he plans to do differently, etc. etc., or maybe he'll share that he doesn't know what to do. The HUGE challenge for you here is to listen and NOT give advice. Sympathize or empathize, reinforce what's good, don't offer suggestions unless he asks for them.

I know this is very, very hard. My father-in-law lost all his money TWICE through really bad investment decisions and we'll probably end up supporting him and his two kids from his second marriage for years. It's very tempting to offer him advice or want to look over his shoulder at what he's doing, but that's just going to make him depressed and even less productive. I know how that goes. Protect yourself, be a good partner.

Accuray
_________________________
Married 18, Together 20
M: 45, W: 47, D: 15, S: 13, D: 9
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11
Start Reconcile: 8/15/11
ILYBINILWY (again) 7/12
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014

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