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#2232448 - 03/21/12 08:40 PM Re: AtLRT for 4... and more... [Re: WenikiTiki]
25yearsmlc Offline
Member

Registered: 04/03/06
Posts: 10919
Loc: west coast
Originally Posted By: WenikiTiki
Hi Kaffe!

I agree there is a time to get "unstuck". ---

You speak of baggage. I see that with me, too. And while I am dumping baggage hopefully I am becoming a better person.


to ME, this^^^ is the first goal of DBing. Not saving the r...

but that can happen as a byproduct of one person changing, which changes the dynamic in the marriage b/c the m is a 2 person r and if one of them changes, IT changes.


And although my kids are older, I also want to be able to make a better life for me and my kids!
----

I can't fix it all by myself. I can make changes til I'm blue. And it doesn't matter. My H is done. Maybe someday he will come around, but at this point I'm not holding my breath.

so why not still do your own personal work? Since getting him back was not supposed to be the GOAL of your changes, (that would mean they were merely tactics to get him back, and Not genuine, permanent changes you wanted to make in YOUR life or your self...make sense?

Why does his reaction affect your personal work?



Several people have told me to move on, but leave room for him to catch up later. I hate to say this, but if I move on it will most likely be in the form of a new relationship. And it wouldn't be fair to a new person coming into my life to be jettisioned if old person decided to come back.


so are you saying you will have to have a new man in your life in order to move on from your h? Even if your h married OW? Sorry I'm confused.

I mean, are you saying you cannot live as a woman Not in a relationship? I'm not clear here. You "must" be part of a couple... or what? You'll just wait for your h to return?


People say they don't need a R. That is silly. This whole site is about saving our R. We are a couple orientated society. Most of us are conditioned to be part of a couple.

Not sure about that^^^.... I don't always like being married, and it often has nothing to do with my marriage or h.

Just that I always have to consider another person's views on something before I can do it. That has been the case since I was in college when I met my h

before that, I was in my father's house.

I think it could be lovely to be on my own doing what I want to do first in situations b/c I never really have. Our first child was born while I was in law school. Hey I love my kids and my h. But there are times I want them to go away.

If I were single again, oh yes I would date. I like companionship. But I like my indendence/self reliance even more. So it would take a very unusual man AND situation for me to marry again.

It takes so much energy and it fosters a bit too much dependence in many situations. That leads to LBSers who cling far too long to someone who is not there anymore.


Thanks for sharing your perspective.



I think you can move on to the other side of the shore. Your h knows how to reach you.

IF that time comes, THEN you can decide if he's really ready/committed AND IF he's really worth it, AND IF you could ever get past all that has happened.

I had to ask myself at one point if I was standing b/c I simply didn't know what else to do,

or b/c I did not want to "lose" and be the rejected party, OR b/c I really wanted to be married to MY h.

Over time, my reasons evolved & changed. The work my h did is what made that last piece true for us.

If that had not happened or if he backslides in a big way, that would change MY view. I would not be here.
_________________________
m:51 H:55
M: 30 yrs
S25,D23,D15
H goes ALASKAN, solo,2005
I file Sep 2/06
Piecing 7/07
Retrovaille Weekend 8/08
M Restored 8/08

Be Happy OR be "Right"

FORGIVENESS: Your way out of hell

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#2232554 - 03/22/12 09:15 AM Re: AtLRT for 4... and more... [Re: MrBond]
WenikiTiki Offline
Member

Registered: 11/10/11
Posts: 1097
Loc: Hawaii
Well MrBond......

You asked how did I survive before I met my H?

I was the full time caretaker of my family. Since I was about 11. So I went from taking care of them, to taking care of a 16 year old roommate, to taking care of my H. Yikes.

And wow, you really just opened my eyes on that one.....

So healthy people don't need a R to survive. Arg! Hand slapping forhead! Not being sarcastic, absolutely having a epiphany here!

I am wondering why I go to therapy. I get way more insight and workable knowledge from you all here. Seriously.

Kaffe, I am not good at challenging peoples choices. But I am working on it...... I wouldn't have been a good lawyer!
_________________________
Me 55 XH 56 Sons age 29 & 24 M:32
D final 9/12
Gainfully employed and kept my house!

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#2232675 - 03/22/12 07:23 PM Re: AtLRT for 4... and more... [Re: 25yearsmlc]
WenikiTiki Offline
Member

Registered: 11/10/11
Posts: 1097
Loc: Hawaii
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Originally Posted By: WenikiTiki
Hi Kaffe!

I agree there is a time to get "unstuck". ---

You speak of baggage. I see that with me, too. And while I am dumping baggage hopefully I am becoming a better person.


to ME, this^^^ is the first goal of DBing. Not saving the r...

but that can happen as a byproduct of one person changing, which changes the dynamic in the marriage b/c the m is a 2 person r and if one of them changes, IT changes.

And I am seeing that, my changes have been noticed by my H and remarked on and in some cases fought over. He still tells me to cook his dinner, buy his food, other stuff, because I and taking his hard earned money. I have continued to do so. But loaded up the freezer with frozen meals. This is a change in the making.....

And although my kids are older, I also want to be able to make a better life for me and my kids!
----

I can't fix it all by myself. I can make changes til I'm blue. And it doesn't matter. My H is done. Maybe someday he will come around, but at this point I'm not holding my breath.

so why not still do your own personal work? Since getting him back was not supposed to be the GOAL of your changes, (that would mean they were merely tactics to get him back, and Not genuine, permanent changes you wanted to make in YOUR life or your self...make sense?

Why does his reaction affect your personal work?


To me that is a clear sign that I am not as detached as I need to be. Working really hard on it. I even managed to stop playing dumb word games on the phones with him.


Several people have told me to move on, but leave room for him to catch up later. I hate to say this, but if I move on it will most likely be in the form of a new relationship. And it wouldn't be fair to a new person coming into my life to be jettisioned if old person decided to come back.


so are you saying you will have to have a new man in your life in order to move on from your h? Even if your h married OW? Sorry I'm confused.

I mean, are you saying you cannot live as a woman Not in a relationship? I'm not clear here. You "must" be part of a couple... or what? You'll just wait for your h to return?


Fair point. I think I am WAY to codependant. So part of my work is most definatly in the part where I can be comfortable being alone. And I am an independent cuss. Stayed alone on the boat in Frisco 2 times for 2 months each time. Absolutly loved it. But was secure in knowing H was there. And I was doing the boat stuff for H!

So maybe I am concerned because part of separating/divorcing leaves me alone and being pursued by other men. I am very outgoing and often have to clarify that I was being friendly, not hitting on someone. I don't want to sound crazy, but there are several people who orbit in my world currently who I feel keep track of my whereabouts way to closely.

So that is a place where I have to work. Setting better boundaries, so people don't mistake my intensions.

I think right now my H is separated from me in his head. I am trying to be separate from him. Going on with my life. Reading the stars onn my mirror inspired by you: "Create a New Beautiful Life For Me"


People say they don't need a R. That is silly. This whole site is about saving our R. We are a couple orientated society. Most of us are conditioned to be part of a couple.

Not sure about that^^^.... I don't always like being married, and it often has nothing to do with my marriage or h.

Just that I always have to consider another person's views on something before I can do it. That has been the case since I was in college when I met my h

before that, I was in my father's house.

I think it could be lovely to be on my own doing what I want to do first in situations b/c I never really have. Our first child was born while I was in law school. Hey I love my kids and my h. But there are times I want them to go away.

If I were single again, oh yes I would date. I like companionship. But I like my indendence/self reliance even more. So it would take a very unusual man AND situation for me to marry again.

It takes so much energy and it fosters a bit too much dependence in many situations. That leads to LBSers who cling far too long to someone who is not there anymore.

Yes, must stop clinging! I realize I even get my animals in pairs. I must get over that mentality. I am not Noah! Life is not an Ark!
Thanks for sharing your perspective.



I think you can move on to the other side of the shore. Your h knows how to reach you.

IF that time comes, THEN you can decide if he's really ready/committed AND IF he's really worth it, AND IF you could ever get past all that has happened.

I had to ask myself at one point if I was standing b/c I simply didn't know what else to do,

or b/c I did not want to "lose" and be the rejected party, OR b/c I really wanted to be married to MY h.

Over time, my reasons evolved & changed. The work my h did is what made that last piece true for us.

If that had not happened or if he backslides in a big way, that would change MY view. I would not be here.


I agree with the above. My reasons are changing. My H has a lot of work to do. I am pretty sure that at this point he has no idea that there is anything for him to do. I hate to leave Hawaii. But could plan a yearly visit here. And get myself into a place where I can grow. And afford to live.......

Thanks Kaffe for allowing the hijack!

Thanks 25 for your always welcome and clear headed thoughts.

_________________________
Me 55 XH 56 Sons age 29 & 24 M:32
D final 9/12
Gainfully employed and kept my house!

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#2235315 - 04/04/12 06:26 AM Re: AtLRT for 4... and more... [Re: WenikiTiki]
~ kd ~ Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/11
Posts: 4866
Loc: Canoe'k-land
Crud...

Well, just a little update.

Got some spew from W this weekend. I caught D14 in a "lie" (withholding; I didn't push further because I didn't want her to get into a full blown lie) about who she was with this weekend. It revolved around her not being around on Sunday when I dropped D9 off and I found out she was hanging out with OM3.

Long story short on that, OM3 appears to no longer be much of an OM. It appears that my W has now (although she is "attached" or attracted to him) just good friends with him which I suspect is because she is trying to set him up with her 21 year old niece or W's 26 year old BFF. Even so, my W continues to tell my kids to not speak of him when in my presence.

This is who D14 was out with and I just told D14 that I was aware she was with him and that she really needs to stop hiding him.

It was a stupid thing of me, but I really will not tolerate my kids lying to me. At 14, I still believe that it is my right to know if she's hanging with druggies or at drinking parties, etc, etc...

Of course, this then gets back to my W who then finds out that I let my D14 know that I wasn't going to attend a sporting event of hers because I knew that these same people that my W wants hidden from me, were going to be at the sporting event with my W and D14...

I get that could appear immature of me. But my logic says, if my W is uncomfortable with me knowing about these friends and when she hangs around with them, then I don't think she'd be real comfortable with me going to an event where she is going to be with them... *shrug*

So... I got spew... got the whole, "I would tell you that OM3 and I are NOT romantically involved, we are just friends, but I won't bother because I know you won't believe me..."

uh... ok... Perhaps she missed the memo on I don't care who she is with or what she is doing, but I DO care what my kids are doing and who they are with...

Anyhow...

Next on the roster here is that I picked up pretty much the rest of my stuff up from the house. W wanted me to get it out of the house 'cause it was in the way of a gym she is creating in the basement. This was planned a couple weeks ago, so I made arrangements to pick it up this eve.

Kinda interesting because I let my W know when I was going to be there and she said that was good and that she would be there. I was about 15 minutes late and as I am driving up the street, my W is driving away... I had a vehicle she may not have recognized so I don't know if she saw me, but as we passed, she had this real... IDK... out of sorts look on her face.

Short story here is, I thought she was going to pick D9 up from an after school meeting and would be right back. I was loading up the truck with my stuff and a friend who's child was also at the meeting pulls up and drops D9 off. I was at the house for about an hour and W did not show up... So kinda anti-climactic, non-event. All that's left there now is my bike and some tools. Easy enough to take with my car at a later date.

So here's the cruncher, though...

D14 is "dating" some local kid. This boy was "kinda" seeing D14 at one point and then changed his mind, dumped D14 and went back to his exGF (who is a friend of D14s). So let's just say he didn't start things off with a good impression... But somehow, he changes his mind again and decides to go back with D14 and she's thrilled...

So I see D14 tonight at the house and... yup... D14's got a hickie... and she's slightly embarrassed... and apparently, W doesn't know... and I'm thinking... that's first base, isn't it...?

I'm real concerned about that and more so because I am pretty sure that W is not big on awareness and parental uniting the kids at this time... there is a lot of time when D14 is "left alone" to her own desires... not to mention that BF is 16 and has his own truck, that I know he's giving D14 rides as she asks...

OMFG...

So, without breaking the promise to D14 that I wouldn't tell W about the hickie, I simply emailed my W to let her know that I was a little concerned about where that relationship might be going. I do hope that my W clues in and starts to pay attention to the goings on with D14...

*sigh*... Not like I can ground D14 or otherwise discipline her... D14 is "choosing" not to visit with me and generally does not conform and if I attempt to discipline, she tells W (who spews on me) and D14 then distances from me...

Any who....

that's today's report...

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#2235543 - 04/05/12 04:02 AM Re: AtLRT for 4... and more... [Re: ~ kd ~]
~ kd ~ Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/11
Posts: 4866
Loc: Canoe'k-land
I guess a quick update, though not sure why I'm posting. Feeling a little chatty today, I guess...

W responds to my concerns indicating she's got it all covered... meh... I had only expected that maybe she would have mentioned that she noticed the hickie. I had hoped that seeing that would have made my W sit up and notice that maybe it's NOT ok to leave a 16 year old boy with a 14 year old girl alone for a couple hours...

hmmmmm... now that I think about it... things have been awful quiet from over there this eve... I texted D14 a couple things this eve with no response... I wonder...

Yes, it's possible that D14 is just doing her thing, but considering the texting we did during the day today, I would have expected her to respond to my texts this eve...

So to get on that, D14 sent me a text this morning that kinda hurt. Told me she trusted me with not telling W about the hickie and that I blew that trust. I let her know that I did not tell W about the hickie, but I did say I was concerned... that was followed with a number of angry texts from D14 and me just saying as a dad, i'm worried for her...

We eventually came to an accord... She understands that I'd be worried and I understand she wants her freedom to pursue love... She knows I trust her, but not him... and she promises not to "go there", like other girls at her school, her age...

The rest of the day was spent texting about fun stuff and I really have to say that there remains a good connection between the two of us... I have to remember that when my W spews about D14, it may not always be what it seems...

So yeah, like I say... things are a little quiet "over there"... D14's usual vectors of comm and a response to my last text around supper are oddly... non-existent. I guess if anything is up, I will eventually hear about it...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

IDK, I just remain baffled to some degree. Maybe it's just because of "where" I am in my sitch...

I got a lot of the standard spew, along with the silent treatment and the MYOB stuff from my W... Very little specifics on what I did wrong, if anything... like a WAS submission, choke hold...

Everything was wrong in the M, I don't trust you, ILYBINILWY, too little, too late... and then wham, detachment, silence and more spew to keep me at bay... and then... limbo... no D... nothing...

wtf... ??? crazy

I still sometimes wonder if I'm the WAS and she's trying to DB me in some strange, P/A way...

Where's the precedence, here...? No... I mean, really...

Is it the sitchs where the WAS goes away and eventually, the LBS just has enough limbo and files...? What's the stats on that, I wonder...?

bleh... a person can drive themselves nuts, I tell you...

kinda like sitting in a sound proofed room...

alone...

with no noise...

in the dark...

in the vacuum of space...



AAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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#2235657 - 04/05/12 05:23 PM Re: AtLRT for 4... and more... [Re: ~ kd ~]
~ kd ~ Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/11
Posts: 4866
Loc: Canoe'k-land
Quick note... D14 is alive and well... she texted to tell me that she went to bed early... then I noticed on a social networking source that she posted about getting 12 hours of sleep...

Did a morals check on her about hickie. She let me know that she is embarrassed about it and knows it is trashy... I validated and said I was glad she new it could look that way... that it wasn't necessarily some badge of honour... I'm sure many of us have been there and have learned that message... lol...

Weekend is coming up and no word from W about the change in the schedule. Last I let her know was that I'd be picking D9 up Saturday at noon (my extra give) instead of late Friday at some distant transfer point...

Anyhow, I think that's about it for me for updates for a while, again...

Like I said, I think I was just feeling a little chatty and dealing with the stress of the drama from earlier this week and moving my stuff the other day...

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#2236247 - 04/07/12 10:25 PM Re: AtLRT for 4... and more... [Re: ~ kd ~]
Soxfan2008 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 1476
Loc: Southwest
Hey Kaffe,

1 thing I've learned through all this is that I make no promises to the kids about anything. When H and I split, we made the kids were 100% sure that H and I would keep no secrets about what the kids did- good or bad. That as parents we would always share 100% of what happened and we'd back each other up (whether or not we agreed with the others choice); thus eliminating them being able to pit one of us against the other.

That is what i see happening with D14. Since you promised, she could be mad at you for telling, mad at you if mom found out, and get mom mad at you when mom found out, all the while taking the freedoms that came with your silence and mom's "cluelessness".

smile
_________________________
T: 23 M:20
S:17 D:14
Bomb 1: 07/05
Busted: 07
Bomb 2: 07/10
D papers: 11/11

True love doesn't come by finding the perfect person, but by learning to see an imperfect person perfectly--Jason Jordan

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#2236292 - 04/08/12 05:16 AM Re: AtLRT for 4... and more... [Re: Soxfan2008]
~ kd ~ Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/11
Posts: 4866
Loc: Canoe'k-land
Thanks, Sox...

Yeah, I think that's a good way to come at it. Unfortunately, my wife and I did not have that agreement. We both understood the "rules" about keeping the kids out of harms way. Our interpretations and applications of those rules were hardly perfect. The kids were our number one battle in this and we've had some pretty significant disagreements on the raising and discipline of the kids our entire relationship.

It was only during the days following the promise to D14 that I realized I had trapped myself in a double bind. Having done that, I did my best to "single parent" that concern. But definitely learned my lesson on that one and will do my best not to put myself in that position again.

While it is a reason or excuse in the larger sense, the reality is that D14 has held that "power" from the moment that I became involved with W and her. I did not know how to fit into their relationship as both a husband AND a dad. There is a tight bond between them that I am not allowed into. But I do believe that it truly interferes / interfered with my ability to fulfil those roles, 100%.

I appreciate that feedback.

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#2236302 - 04/08/12 07:10 AM Re: AtLRT for 4... and more... [Re: ~ kd ~]
~ kd ~ Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/11
Posts: 4866
Loc: Canoe'k-land
oh, just a passing memory of picking D9 up earlier in the day...

D9 was chatty and there was a lot of info being passed between me and W about stuff... nothing big, really... in a way, this is our time to "catch up" with daily life with each other, regarding the kids...

Anyhow, D9 has this book in her hand and I admit I was half paying attention to each of them, being a guy and unable to multitask well... grin

So D9 makes a reference to the book and then says something to the effect of, something, something, "if you two started dating each other"...

hunh?

W makes a quick and light comment... jokingly to be sure, at least that's how it sounded to me, "oh, dad and I don't have time for that"... I near buckled in half and just laughed out loud (at my D9's comment) and then at W's comment and said, "yeah, that's for sure..."

I found out after that the book is one given to her by a resource teacher at school for kids who are dealing with divorce...

Man, out of the mouths of babes and the craziest of timing... I think D9 had it all planned out... D9 also told me later, after stating during the ride that she knows mom and dad aren't getting back together, that her and W watched a movie before I picked her up... asked if I could guess the movie... of course I couldn't and I said what movie? She says to me, "The Parent Trap"...

I love my kids... lol...

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#2236834 - 04/10/12 04:17 PM Re: AtLRT for 4... and more... [Re: ~ kd ~]
~ kd ~ Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/11
Posts: 4866
Loc: Canoe'k-land
Just putting some thoughts down...

Been having a lot of conversations about double binds and deal breakers on this forum...

I know that I got myself into a lot of double binds... trying to fix one problem only put the spotlight on other problems or new problems caused by the fix... only to have the fix become part of an every bigger problem...

Deal breakers? Have some...

Just as I'm sure that some of my characteristics are deal breakers for others... funny how we think primarily of what characteristics in others would be deal breakers for us... and don't think about what characteristics in us that would be deal breakers for others...

D9 has an extracurricular event tonight. I've known about it for about a month now. Partly because information that I had before had the date being two weeks ago. I do know that it wasn't just my W who was unclear on the date of the event. Anyhow, no big deal, just noting that.

But talking about deal breakers. As noted above in my last posts, I found out that this event is tonight. I took charge and made plans for it, assuming that plans... what my W was thinking around the event, were... Everything was set...

But, I realized I should confer with my W to make sure we were on the same page. My W responded that we were... that I would still be taking D9 to the event.

Here's where I sit up and go... "are you kidding me?"

Here's the positive part... my W received info about the event and through what ever convo she had with an event planner, the topic of warm clothes came up, so W lets me know that she will have warm clothes ready for D9 to take with...

But here's where I think... "do you really have no idea that people can take care of their own stuff, without interference?"

Basically, in the same response from my W is information on where to go, who to meet, contact info, times, etc...

So hey, no big deal. It's like you have a passenger in the car with you and they yell out "red light"... and you KNOW the colour of the traffic lights ahead of you...

Do you say, "mind your own business... I've got it covered..."

Or do you say, "thank you..." because while the likelihood is that they are simply concerned about their own safety... they are simply giving you additional feedback which confirms that which you may or may not already know...

I thanked my W for the info and letting me know the stuff would be there for D9...

The crazy making part is the thing that I can be tolerant to, to some degree... but when it leans to... when I feel like it is... something that my mother would do for me when I was a child... what...??? Like I'm not an adult that can take care of this type of stuff?

So on the one hand, I appreciate her interest and desire to be helpful... and it is just her nature to do so... it's not me... it's anyone... and for goodness sake, I will be with her child, so she certainly wants to make sure her kid is safe, comfortable, and has fun...

But in the context of her telling me to "mind your own business" because she can take care of her own life... and my kids... without help, support, feedback, or interference...

The shoe apparently does not fit on the other foot...

The double bind...?

In the past, I would simply say, "sure honey. Thanks. Go ahead and take care of all the fine details and I will simply follow the agenda and map that you give to me, because I know it's important to you to feel in control of a situation..."

Yet, that same thing threw up on my face...

Suddenly, she felt she had to do everything for me. That I was not responsible. That I could not take care of my own business, children, life... and she felt trapped by it... we were BOTH in a double bind... created by BOTH of ourselves...

So... what's the deal...

Are things really deal breakers? Or are they things that are fine characteristics for anyone to have... but without appropriate boundaries... and appropriate mutual respect and trust of both parties... we say we don't like those characteristics...

Someone (s)mothers us? Deal breaker...
Someone is quick to offer us suggestions? Deal breaker...
Someone wants to have their own time to have personal fun? Deal breaker...
Someone has trouble paying attention? Deal breaker...
A bad memory? Deal breaker...
States their opinion? Deal breaker...

Are things really deal breakers...? Or are they things that we'd appreciate in anyone else, in a different context... but because they are coming from our spouses... we don't like them and they are deal breakers...

As my D14 said a while back...

We need to check ourselves, before we wreck ourselves...

Things don't have to be deal breakers... they can be very beneficial... it's just the context... and it is up to us to define that context and maintain boundaries around them...

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