let me start of by saying I hope you don't take what I'm going to say the wrong way but here goes.
Frist of all, your old marriage is over. No question. The only question you should be really be asking is when/if does my new marriage start. You, your wife or anyone one of us do not need a piece of paper to tell us our marriages are either good or bad or on or off.
Your W "unplanted" that flag months ago. I believe at least you gave her the impression that you also wanted to end it. On the flip side, is your commitment to your wife and family only contingent on what a judge says? Of course not.
[as an aside I do think your are right. The date of your wedding is not that significant. It's some arbitrary date most of us picked - probably because it was on a Saturday. It marks no real start to a relationship. You were already committed before then to your W]
Divorce is, for the most part, a legal concept. Yet for many of us it becomes an emotional concept. We say "I don't want to get divorced" When we really mean, I don't want my relationship to end. Yes divorce does have some legal significance attached to it - that's just the reality. You can bust your "divorce" but that doesn't mean that your R is any better with your spouse. We have a number of people who are still married in the eyes of the law here who's relationships with their wives/husbands are not great.
I think one thing that is rarely talked about here is that many, many see divorce with a sense of failure. Of all the people I know that have gone through it, it is the one overriding emotion. "I failed." I think that fear of failure drives a lot of the DB efforts (it can drive our S too) more than even MWD would admit. I see that in your posts as well. You don't want to be the "divorced" guy. You don't want to have that failure - even if it meant that your W and you later reconciled.
As for your changes. Many, many people who have been in our shoes have made changes. And while they were going through the process they insisted that their changes were real and permanent. Very few are, IMO. Once they start getting what they want - the slip up, backslide, or just stop trying. I mean there are literally 1000s of examples on this board. I actually give Kudos to the people who come back here and admit they got lazy. I think most wouldn't even admit that.
You have been at this for 6 months or so. It's not a permanent change yet, in your W's eyes. It is one of the hardest things to do to make fundamental changes to one's personality. (That's not me speaking, studies back this up) it takes a long time and it's a long process. However, I don't want to devalue your effort. Every change does have a starting point. I believe you can be successful. But I believe by focusing on dates, documents, etc. it does take your focus off that. That's why I harp on this point to you.
Patience is bitter, but its fruit is sweet. --Jean Jacques Rousseau.
Nah, man - I'm not taking it the wrong way at all. I see what you are saying and I don't really disagree with you wildly at all.
I have known that my old marriage is dead and gone. In a manner of speaking I am HAPPY about that. It has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt that the course it was taking was unsustainable.
If I really dig at the heart of the matter for me, I think you are right - I (on some level) struggle with the concept of failure - that was elaborated on months ago in an old thread. I don't think it's me struggling with the concept of being "the divorced guy". Rather, the concept that life with me as so unfulfilling that my wife decided to leave. THAT thought, although no longer in the forefront of my mind, still grinds away in the very far back.
Furthermore, and I will be very honest here, D means my wife is free to go be with someone else. Granted, she could do that NOW if she really wanted to - but post-divorce it is acceptable both legally and societally. I FULLY ACCEPT THAT THIS IS MY HANG-UP - and I am creating it for myself and need to stop. Just hard to break that train of thought.
Also, I know that I am in the infancy of my changes and probably have some kind of hyper-exuberance around them and being dedicated to them. I just don't think I could go back to where I was given all that it has cost me right now. That is a VERY valuable "don't touch the hot stove" lesson. You go through it once - hopefully. If anything is going to drive a fundamental change to MY life and default behaviors and personality - I don't see how it's not this. Harrier, this is the hardest thing I have ever gone through emotionally and I hold myself accountable for my part in it....often times ALL of it. Regardless of where I land, I will never want to be HERE again - and if that means hard changes to my behavior - so be it.
so you concede you wanted the "old" marriage to end, and it has. It has already ended.
Divorce papers would merely formalize that.
You say you want a new better marriage...that you are different man. Okay so you need to lose the baggage YOU attach to the divorce papers
I'd feel differently if she were not also saying things like she wants to work it out....I believe her. I think this is what will make her feel most safe, relatively.
If the divorce goes thru and you are still the new Crimson,
the truly changed man, for real,
then what FEARS can hold her back then?
I submit, none.
There are MANY positives in your sitch, even if you don't end up reconciling.
But if I were a betting woman, I'd bet you will.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Man - I see this yesterday, and it was new thread with three replies. Cool, I think, I can get back up to speed and keep up with that. I check it today and there's 22. Which means lots of good advice, Crimson... and from what I can gather in trying to keep up, sounds like a fair amount to keep your chin up about...
Me: 36 Her: 35 Together 7/09 Married 8/7/10 Separate rooms since at least April 11 "I've decided I want a divorce" 12/5/11 She moves out of state/files 2/7/12 Dissolution final 5/12
25 - All good points. The actual D is a hang-up for me, though relative to where I am right now it quite literally changes little to nothing. I just have to get over the symbolism of it and try to view it as merely a legal proceeding. Sadly, I still read it as w saying "no way in hell I want to be with you!". Trying to get over that....ego talking, if I'm being honest.
My suggestion is to not act like you are courting her.
She did say a little over a week ago she is going through with the d.
Courting kind of takes 2 parties.
So, I wouldn't think in terms of courting her. But that's just me. Others may have a different opinion. The idea of courting does in fact freak her out. It freaks you out too, but in a different way .Just go about your business. If she expresses any interest in doing something date like go along with it, but casually.
I wouldn't initiate anything yourself. Not now.
Sorry I wasn't clear enough. To ME, your w's comments strongly suggest that a huge part of her, FEARS your changes are not real or lasting. That if she lets her guard down, you will revert. & She may not have the strength to leave again...
She fears opening her heart up to you again. You know the reasons - I posted them to you once or twice, at length. (Remember the post MANY threads ago, about a WAW writing to an LBS h b/c he didn't get why his w would not return after a few months of change on his part.)
So if she withdraws the D papers, she'll be taking a huge leap of faith Without knowing if your changes will last. She is clearly NOT ready to do that.
And she does not see the past the same way you do.
I DO recall a thread of resentment and self righteousness in your original posts about you "generously" getting her a bed (emphasis mine) and you having all of the other things in the home and her having to ask you for them, when in fact, legally she was entitled to half anyway. But back then, you were mad at her "for taking stuff"...if I recall correctly.
Things are in motion that suggest she is willing to give YOU time to see where this new you goes...but she's not willing to take the leap of faith YET.
If you reconcile, you'll BOTH be taking a leap of faith, like all of us here who ever marry or choose to love.
I'm saying stick it out. Act as if you know the old m died, SO the papers are "papers/schmapers" and
maybe the papers IF they come - ought to symbolize the end and death of the old you...
no matter what. Once you are both "Free" to breathe and not have to be "right" or make it by a certain date "to win"
then you see each other when you do-with your s, (but without YOU being the one to suggest "dates" YET being warm to her suggestions for them, if you are)
then time will tell. She experiences anguish every time you two swap your son...she wants another child...
you have some things going in your favor that are HUGE...
Time will reveal a lot, if you are watching.
Make sense?
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Makes complete sense - just something that I have to brace for if/when it goes that far.
Ever since the e-mail from last week I think I all but suspended any formal "courting" activities. I have even tried to pull back on my iitiating any conversation - which, admittedly, is difficult. I would love to be able to see my son this weekend, but I am not going to make any suggestions or impose myself on her schedule - whatever it may be.
She DID call me last night via Skype and I got to interact with my S while he was getting his bath - even got to read him a bedtime story. I thanked her for that - it really helped me get over the pain of missing him. Again - we seem to be getting along just fine these days. Maybe it's the marital equivalent of calming a chicken down before you chop off its head - I don't know.
So to clarirfy - and I am not being defensive - just want to do a better job explaining - when w moved out I did not impede or restrict her from taking half of what was legally hers (including MORE than half of the money we had combined in savings). As a community property state, all of the property I owned PRIOR to getting married was labeled "sole and separate" and could not be divided - same with HER propery prior to the marriage. As she was leaving, there were MAJOR things (furniture, etc.) that were mine prior to marriage that she wanted to take and I said "no". THAT was the point of contention. All of the community property that we shared we split 50/50. Anything that was classified as such that she asked for I handed over without argument.
NONE of this ^^^^^^ matters right now because we are long past that stage. I just wanted to clarify that I wasn't trying to horde or deny her things she was entitled to legally.
