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#2234435 - 03/30/12 05:53 PM Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb [Re: MrBond]
ouroboros Offline
Member

Registered: 03/19/12
Posts: 41
Originally Posted By: MrBond
It's because she wants to remain "in control". She'll blame you for "making" her feel the way she does, but bottomline is that she wants to control the situation so she won't get hurt.

That seems quite obvious now...but only after you pointed it out to me. I don't know why this didn't occur to me, but you're definitely on to something.

Quote:
Sandi was asking about the C because, to be honest, at this stage of the game it won't work. We've all learned it the hard way and it's written in DB. I forgot to see if you've read it.

I read DR, not DB. It doesn't explicitly say don't use C, but here I am wondering how not to backslide during C... Right or wrong, one thing I am hoping comes out of C is having W access her emotions, even if in a limited way where I'm not the one provoking. W usually wears them on her sleeve, yet since the bomb has been unusually and steadfastly stoic in all matters related to the future--an expression of control.
For what it's worth, the C is EFT which is very much geared accessing emotions to get to the crux of issues, with an eye toward the future without rehashing the past.

I'm thinking *I* need to exercise greater self-control during C, and for the time being be more matter of fact than emotionally expressive.

Quote:
In your W's "moment of clarity", did she say why she wanted a D? I mean real reasons. Is it that she lost respect for you or whatever?

No, that's one of the things with which I'm really struggling. I tried to find this out asking from several directions when I was pursuing as well as during our C. The closest detail I've gotten is "we've grown apart". W denies EA and PA. She also explicitly says she's as much to blame as I am, but then quickly points out that means we're both blameless. I'm suspecting that WAW, at least in this case, is coming out of a place of fear, from a place of lack of control--and a loss of confidence/respect that I can help provide those controls due to my MLC and depression.

Quote:
Don't lose hope. First thing you need to do is to stop assuming all the blame of this happening. It doesn't do anyone any good. You can turn the ship around but you have to be strong to do it. I would strongly suggest you go to C just for yourself and DEFINITELY change your username.

Thanks for the needed encouragement--It's so freaking hard not to lose hope some days.
I'm really finding it hard to reconcile the idea that I shouldn't shoulder all the blame with the entire DR approach. If I partly blame the W, I start to feel resentful or angry. If I blame myself, I get sad and remorseful. I'm not really one to blame the universe on these sorts of situations. I'm feel like struggling. I'm trying to simply forgive myself, and W, for the situation we are in. But, I'm having a hard time forgiving the things I'm not comprehending, like W's rational for the D.

Quote:
If you call yourself "crushd" that is how you will remain. Change it to something more positive and strong. Then believe it and live it.

Damn.
This really hits home with me...this is really about a shift or rebuild of my own identity, isn't it. I mean, all of it. Again, how could I have not known or seen that?
_________________________
(formerly crushd)
Married 14 yrs
M41/W43/D7/S4
M: MLC, major depression/W: WAW
Bomb 2/26/12, 2 days before anniversary
Detachment, Grown Apart, "I love you like the father of my children", EA/PA?

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#2234441 - 03/30/12 06:34 PM Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb [Re: ouroboros]
ouroboros Offline
Member

Registered: 03/19/12
Posts: 41
An update...it's been a little over a month since the bomb.
I don't quite know how to write this update, but I think it'll be good for me to try to at least list out some observations of our interaction.

GAL:
1. Stopped drinking.
2. Started antidepressants, which are seriously helping. Frequently feeling sad, but not feeling numb or vacant.
3. Working out 3-4 times a week. Not a secret, but W doesn't know.
4. Occasionally hanging out with friends.
5. Getting a symbolic tattoo next week. Not a secret, but W doesn't know.
6. Getting IC
7. Compiling legal/financial advice to know my options and protect myself should D become even more likely.

The M:
1. 2-3 weeks of 180s.
2. One C session which seemed to do no harm, but didn't tell either of us anything new (more getting the therapist up to speed), another C next week.
3. Hired a DB coach. The most salient point she made was to view the 180s, as well as any opportunity for physical interaction (e.g., a hug, kiss on the forehead) through a lens of "does this make me more attractive". This was hugely helpful for me to clear up my hesitation about the "aloof and distant" issues with the 180s and better define what are my goals.
4. Right or wrong, provided the birthday surprise I previously mentioned. This seemed warmly received.
5. Outside of the one C, no discussion of the M or the D at all, not one little bit.

Good/bad signals:
1. Over the past week or so, realized that W is asking for more "favors" than usual, and ones that are timesinks or commitments for me (e.g., can you take the kids to school even though I worked 16 hrs straight and got to bed at 2am, or is it ok that I invited a playdate over for the D/7 when W will be at the doctor). Maybe W is checking boundaries. I'm thinking I need to find opportunities to say no.
2. W woke me up to see the S/D cuddled up together in some serious cuteness.
3. W briefly put her head and hand on my shoulder when we were together watching a goodbye speech for one of the S's influential teachers.
4. W went well out of her way to try to let me sleep in today (even if the S/D didn't).
5. W is suddenly not coy about some things again--like nudity getting dressed. Or watching and talking to me as I undress to take a shower.
6. W is performing chores regularly, and then some (like organizing). I've responded in kind, and consistently.
7. W is cracking jokes with me, and vice-versa. We've actually had a couple belly laughs over the past week.
8. W has made several references to longer term things she'd like us to do, mostly about the house or landscaping. Maybe this is just to improve the $ of the house, I don't know.
9. A person close to myself, and especially W, is about to pass away. W has reached out to me several times to briefly discuss.
_________________________
(formerly crushd)
Married 14 yrs
M41/W43/D7/S4
M: MLC, major depression/W: WAW
Bomb 2/26/12, 2 days before anniversary
Detachment, Grown Apart, "I love you like the father of my children", EA/PA?

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#2234949 - 04/02/12 10:26 PM Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb [Re: ouroboros]
ouroboros Offline
Member

Registered: 03/19/12
Posts: 41
We went to our second couples counseling session today.
Maybe some progress, I don't know.

She definitely mentioned having a marked sense of relief over the past two weeks (since I started 180s and since the antidepressants really kicked in). Oddly, over that period of time we talked exactly 0 times about our M. We have actually had a pretty good time, occasionally laughing and joking.

She started getting really emotional for the first time, actually crying for the first time since the bomb. This time, in counseling, I expressed my emotions but didn't wear them on my sleeve.

We talked about some serious attachment problems which occurred early in our relationship which involved her giving me some ultimatums instead of trying to talk about any of it with me, and my sacrificing things for her and getting exactly no gratitude. And my feeling like I've been fighting for a long time for her to be 100% committed to our M, and my insecurity/abandonment fears due to my parents' D.

What's weird to me is that she keeps talking in a way where she mentions how much we've worked and worked on our M--but refers to events that literally happened in the 1990s...it's like she's using some sort of internal emotional reference point from way back then as part of her way of finding her strength to walk away.

She mentioned how she's been really anxious to bring things up to me, including the bomb, because she's afraid I'll get angry and she'll feel blame/guilt for it.
She talked about her biggest fear being that the kids will be hurt--but still doesn't seem to get that D is a huge hurt for them no matter what.

She talked about how afraid she is that if we do D that I'll tell the kids something like "it's because mommy doesn't love me anymore" and she'd find that devastating--which is confusing to me because for the moment, it's exactly true. Or that I might do something like fight for custody.

I'm starting to believe that she's massively avoiding her sense of blame and actually feels ashamed--and wants to hide that from our friends, family, and kids.
I now think she's rationalized this WAW flight as some sort of protection of the children--which is going to make it difficult for her to back out of this decision easily, if she does at all.

I think she wants to control this situation, but is slowly realizing that how I act if we move forward on a D is not something under her control, and is petrified.
_________________________
(formerly crushd)
Married 14 yrs
M41/W43/D7/S4
M: MLC, major depression/W: WAW
Bomb 2/26/12, 2 days before anniversary
Detachment, Grown Apart, "I love you like the father of my children", EA/PA?

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#2235948 - 04/06/12 04:12 PM Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb [Re: ouroboros]
sandi2 Online
Member

Registered: 06/28/07
Posts: 11341
Quote:
She talked about how afraid she is that if we do D that I'll tell the kids something like "it's because mommy doesn't love me anymore" and she'd find that devastating--which is confusing to me because for the moment, it's exactly true. Or that I might do something like fight for custody.


Because in spite of what she does or how she feels toward you and the M, she doesn't want her children to think she's bad.

My children were grown when I had an EA, but I will never forget the terror I felt at the possibility they would be told by my H what I had done. One of the most horrible things I've ever said to him, was when I told him I would hate him until the day I died if he ever told my kids. An "ultimatum" was all I had to throw at him. I was crazy enough to actually believe he loved me to the point of covering my actions and the truth from our kids.
_________________________
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!

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#2235982 - 04/06/12 07:27 PM Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb [Re: sandi2]
mykarma Offline
Member

Registered: 01/20/11
Posts: 791
Loc: TX
Ouroboros : "batteries?" : Are you a fan of 'Red dwarf" ? Awesome series!

On a more serious note, It is great you are here, finding help. I can relate a bit to your situation. I too was depressed during the waning days of our marriage. That is when my wife filed because she could not handle it anymore. After more than a year of ups and downs, i can say this: Make yourself happy, without your family. The moment you are happy all by yourself and genuinely at peace with everything, you will find that your wife will gravitate towards you. You are already seeing that with your 180's. But getting out of that pit of depression is the key.

Good luck!
_________________________
BITS
M 35
W 32
D 4
Married 11 yrs
W left for 6 months in 2009
W Filed for D 01/03/11
piecing now...

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#2235989 - 04/06/12 07:55 PM Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb [Re: ouroboros]
sandi2 Online
Member

Registered: 06/28/07
Posts: 11341
I'd like to encourage you to post more often, b/c some folks may lose heart and think you've stopped posting at all. It happens.
_________________________
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!

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#2235991 - 04/06/12 08:03 PM Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb [Re: ouroboros]
~ kd ~ Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/11
Posts: 4866
Loc: Canoe'k-land
Originally Posted By: ouroboros
What's weird to me is that she keeps talking in a way where she mentions how much we've worked and worked on our M--but refers to events that literally happened in the 1990s...it's like she's using some sort of internal emotional reference point from way back then as part of her way of finding her strength to walk away.


Many here make a strong assertion that whether WAS or MLC, the work is the same for the LBS.

Also, even the use of the labels of WAS, MLC and LBS can be harmful in the sense that we become the labels, when the labels do not define who we are nor the uniqueness of each one of our sitchs...

Having written that disclaimer, I did want to point out the above in bold, as if that is the case, then there is a possibility that your W is in some sort of crises that can occur for some people around mid life. As that is a journey that often has the person having to reconcile past events and integrating them into their current life in hopefully a constructive way.

Maybe crises (which is generally correlates with some perceived traumatic event) or simply a benign transition brought about by her desire to ground and centre herself so she can consider and plan her future.

The above is just a wordy way of saying:

That's possibly not odd because your W could be going through and MLC...

grin

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#2236137 - 04/07/12 11:59 AM Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb [Re: ouroboros]
ouroboros Offline
Member

Registered: 03/19/12
Posts: 41
What does success look like?
I see some little glimpses of 180s working.
I'm not trying to hurry, I know this is a long road.

But what does it look like?
After years of patterns of passive aggression and avoiding conflict, what does it look like to begin to reconcile?

When it happens, how does it happen?
How does it begin?
_________________________
(formerly crushd)
Married 14 yrs
M41/W43/D7/S4
M: MLC, major depression/W: WAW
Bomb 2/26/12, 2 days before anniversary
Detachment, Grown Apart, "I love you like the father of my children", EA/PA?

Top
#2236153 - 04/07/12 02:30 PM Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb [Re: ouroboros]
sandi2 Online
Member

Registered: 06/28/07
Posts: 11341
It usually comes in spoonful sizes. There are certain things that will take time to correct or rebuild. For instance, changing the passive behavior takes time, but even moreso to convince her that you won't be that passive man any longer. The reason being, you can't prove it by words. She'll have to see for herself, and that takes time.

Success can start by catching a certain look in her eyes. Hearing a particular tone in her voice. Seeing her be more cooperative with you. This can be small glimpses of success, but it can also become an unhealthy pattern a LBH falls into by watching her too closely for reactions and reading into her every look or word.

One of the biggest signs that progress is being made is when you are able to look into her face and see that she truly "wants" to be with you (not b/c some C assigned her to work on being together), she wants to go do whatever you want to do and hang out where you decide. But here's an important issue: She wants you to be decisive and not lay back and tell her you're fine with whatever she wants. Women don't like that. Once in a great while is fine, but not all the time.

I remember one time being asked out on a date, and when he came to get me, he was asking me where I wanted to go. I didn't know how much he could afford and he was the one who asked me out, so he was the "planner", the decider, etc. To much extent, I think women want the men to continue doing that after they're M. That's not to say you're to treat her like she doesn't have enough sense to know how to order from a menu. You have to stay balanced.

I don't think you were passive before M, or she would not have M you (unless she just wanted to get M to anyone, b/c it goes against thee nature of the woman.

How does success look? Do you know how respect looks? If so, then you will recognize success.
_________________________
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!

Top
#2236179 - 04/07/12 04:34 PM Re: Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb [Re: mykarma]
ouroboros Offline
Member

Registered: 03/19/12
Posts: 41
Originally Posted By: mykarma
Ouroboros : "batteries?" : Are you a fan of 'Red dwarf" ? Awesome series!

YES!! That was definitely on my mind. Thank you-it's been a while since I've smiled this broadly smile smile

And, more seriously, I've (although not alone) definitely given birth to my own situation. Now, I intend to keep on keeping on, and define my own destiny. Somehow.
_________________________
(formerly crushd)
Married 14 yrs
M41/W43/D7/S4
M: MLC, major depression/W: WAW
Bomb 2/26/12, 2 days before anniversary
Detachment, Grown Apart, "I love you like the father of my children", EA/PA?

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