I didn't see it coming...but now I see everything

[breakdownbill]

I too am not quite ready to

It is a good thing to understand from another's perspective - thanks for pointing that out. I think I had a bad day yesterday because I'm pretty ok today and felt love again in my heart. So, there will always be days of ups and downs, it's the long run that counts

Yes, even though we are not throwing in the towel, we must look after our wellbeings. So, you are right, don't allow yourself to be treated in a way that may lower your self-esteem. It is bad enough feel rejected, but to pile up further injury makes no sense. Of course, if I was completely an enlightened human being, I'd be able to see their current behavior as their lack of vision that is causing them to behave with such insensitivity towards another human being - and then let it roll of this duck's back. But, until that day comes, I will just keep an eye out for myself, as you

You go to uni - well, so do I! I was a total mess when all this started - even started crying at a meeting I had with one of my tutors. I was mortified and thought I was able to keep my personal life separate from my student life. I learned that lesson! Fortunately, I am in the arts, so we get to express a lot through our art and the tutors accept that. Is there anyway of incorporating your current personal sitch into your Uni work? Just an idea to help relieve some of the pressure.

YC

I'm having a good / bad day today YC

I feel more in control of my emotions than I have in a long time. I just really feel bad for my kids - when the time comes for separation, which I think is inevitable - is gonna crush them. Even if I saw them everyday. I'm so hands on with those little guys.

I feel that I really do need to fix myself, be happy again and then decide what I want to do for me. I want to be with the kids as much as physically possible, that is for certain. Not much else in my life apart from getting older is certain.

My tutors at UNI have been great. Today I went to see one of them after my counselling session and she said, 'don't be to down on yourself, your life's sh*t at the moment' I laughed so much at that today.

We have a lot in common YC with our sitch's and I really like sharing what's going on with you.

Here's to better days

Bill

[breakdownbill]

The major problem, I have about getting out and GAL is the stress i'm under @ uni trying to meet my deadlines because i'm really behind and struggling now.

Could you go to the public library to do your work? You don't have to tell her where you're going. (Maybe add a bit of mystery.) It's not like GAL, but it will get you out of the house and a strained environment. I would think it might help you stay focused on your studies, too. But, you can't spill your guts by telling her everything.

Hi Sandi

Yeah I think I will start going to the Library a bit more and just start coming in late. My life leaves me very accountable at the moment because of the children. So the only mystery I think I can muster between now & may is coming back later and later.

I really hope that what I'm feeling today passes, because right now I really do resent my W for her share of the blame in making our lives miserable & for the affair. I suppose it's healthy though to explore what I want. I know I don't want more of the same in our R. Being single vs how I've been feeling seems pretty appealing today.

(rollercoaster of emotions and moods- not a ride recommended for people with a heart or conscience)

Bill

[YankeeCandle]

Here's to better days

Cheers to that!

[Denver_2010]

[quote=breakdownbill

Hi Denver

I've been doing a lot of thinking about my sitch & currently as things stand my wife is openly admitting to me that she is going back to dancing on Thursday & will be dancing with the OM and that she doesn't care. (well she knows how I feel about it, so if she's saying she doesn't care- she has zero respect for me - I won't be used anymore)

My counselling sessions have revealed to me just how unhappy I have been in our marraige for a long time too, I just didn't deal with it.

Last week I was 100% for saving my marraige, but right now I'm 50 / 50 at best. The holiday text - was a big thing to me, because she put herself before the kids & she went down even further in my estimation as a decent human being.

The person my wife has turned into isn't the person I married and unless we both seriously worked at our communication and problem solving behaviour - nothing will change.

My Wife said that she has done what other people want her to do all her life, but no more she is doing what she wants to do. (I'm done pleading for another chance)

My only hopes of a future reconciliation are 3 fold

If between now & May when my UNI work is over, and my W has second thoughts about the separation.

If she realises that when I'm gone things feel different and incomplete

If our holiday reunites our bond as a family and a couple

Oh and if the OM either drops dead or they lose interest.

But then I need to factor in me, every day of hurt makes me question why I'm putting myself through this. What am I fighting for? a Wife who has helped make me feel miserable for the last few years and cheated on me, that shows little signs of remorse? If it wasn't for the kids, I question whether I would still be here now after all this crap.

I deserve better than that, we all do.

I'm detaching, I'm venting here, but I'm faking being happy around my W (well today I did at least), I might feel different tomorrow or next week,but right now I feel a lot of resentment towards my wife. But we get days like this right?
[/quote]

Hi Bill. I completely understand what you are feeling right now. I have had many days and moments where I have wondered what I was fighting for. Why I was fighting for someone who did not want me at that moment.

For me, it was 3 things that kept me going:

1) My acknowledgment that I played a great role in putting my M in jeopardy by not cherishing my W and treating her as she should have been treated. While I have never excused my W's decision to leave the M or her the choices that she made afterwards, it did allow me to have understanding. To know that she is a vulnerable human being, prone to error... as we all are... just as I was before (and am still).

2) My marriage vows. "... in good times and in bad" ... what did that mean to me? I had to answer that for myself early on in my situation. When I vowed to be with my w for the rest of my life, did I mean only until things got rough? Through sickness and in health... did that mean only physical sickness, or did it also mean depression, sadness, or my W losing her way in life. For me, it was a matter of what my word, my promise, to my W meant to me. And I also recognized that I had already broken my vow to cherish my W. I had to learn to forgive myself for that. Something that I am still working on.

3) The idea that iron is forged from fire. I decided that if my M could survive this, that it would ultimately be much, much stronger as a result. An affair is probably the single most difficult problem that a M can face... save maybe the death of a child. Can they survive and thrive, yes. There are stories here on this board of that happening. There are numerous books written on the subject. I decided that I wanted a M made of iron forged by fire. That's what I've chosen to strive for. As a result, I have learned tons about how difficult M is... how difficult being with one single person for our entire lives is. Can we really expect that there aren't going to be difficult times, that we aren't going to have to face the fact that we aren't always going to travel the exact same path as our spouse. We each are going to grow and change as the years pass. Bad things are going to happen. Poor choices are going to be made. But man, if I am with my W, my partner, at the end, if we have lived a life together that is happy for even 80% of that time, it will have been worth it. And what is a year, even two, when compared to 30, 40, 50, years together? It is a blip in the grand scheme of things.

4) Unconditional love. This is a concept that I had never really considered or thought about. What is it? This post from Truegritter's threads hit home with me and caused me to A LOT of reflection on what type of love I wanted to give and receive through the remainder of my life:

"We understand that what our spouse is doing is not to us. It is because of their fears and insecurities. It is because, in part, the way we have behaved. It is because most of all what THEY feel inside.

We understand that we have no control over this.

It is their choice and not about you BUT why would you want to stay in this because it still is causing you pain?

Why is it still causing you pain? What are we missing?

We all want to feel loved. We think about it, hope for it, fantasize about it, go to great lengths to achieve it, and feel that our lives are incomplete without it. The lack of unconditional love is the cause of most of our anger and confusion. It is no exaggeration to say that our emotional need for unconditional love is just as great as our physical need for air and food.

We learned that love was conditional, that we had to get it from the people around us with our words and behavior. And that is how we perceive it when it is given. We give then expect to get it.

Isn’t our marriage based on this? Isn’t this where it derailed?

If we leave now [AND IN THIS WAY] we confirm our ignorance of what love means and confirm that to our spouse that your love was not real but dependent and conditional.

You confirm again all the self loathing your spouse feels inside because the person that is supposed to love them hasn’t, won’t, and never will. You also confirm this most importantly in YOURSELF.

We want to know the mystery of love. The mystery of our marriage. To know ourselves.
To remove self doubt.

When you do that you begin to understand why you are standing for your spouse and your marriage.

And you start to learn what real love is.

Unconditional love is caring about the happiness of another without any thought for what we might get for ourselves. It’s also when other people care about our happiness unconditionally.

And what it is not
It is not what we have lived in our life and our marriage up to now. It is not controlling. It does not desire and force. It does not depend on action or inaction from our spouse.

And so as we let this soak in and as it takes hold we discover an amazing thing and it gives life to us and breaths hope into our spirits and that is:

Unconditional love is when we love despite the foolish choices of our spouse, when they fail to do what we desire, regardless of any choice they make. This love alone has the power to heal all wounds, deliver self respect and remove all doubt for you and your spouse. It allows love and healing to flourish.
This is how we need to be loved.

And this is the paradox.
That we only get this when we give it.

And now is the opportunity.

There is no GREATER opportunity you will ever have in your life then NOW to express this kind of love.

To do this takes greater courage than most people will ever understand and will ever know.

And you have received this wonderful gift only by going through the experience. By the trial.
By the tragedy.

What greater thing could you aspire to do.
EVER."


I'm not here to convince you of anything Bill, but the easy choice is not always the right choice.

What you have to decide man is whether or not your W and your M is worth it. No one can answer question but you.

Denver

[Denver_2010]

Ugh... no edit button. Going to repost this.

Hi Bill. I completely understand what you are feeling right now. I have had many days and moments where I have wondered what I was fighting for. Why I was fighting for someone who did not want me at that moment.

For me, it was 3 things that kept me going:

1) My acknowledgment that I played a great role in putting my M in jeopardy by not cherishing my W and treating her as she should have been treated. While I have never excused my W's decision to leave the M or her the choices that she made afterwards, it did allow me to have understanding. To know that she is a vulnerable human being, prone to error... as we all are... just as I was before (and am still).

2) My marriage vows. "... in good times and in bad" ... what did that mean to me? I had to answer that for myself early on in my situation. When I vowed to be with my w for the rest of my life, did I mean only until things got rough? Through sickness and in health... did that mean only physical sickness, or did it also mean depression, sadness, or my W losing her way in life. For me, it was a matter of what my word, my promise, to my W meant to me. And I also recognized that I had already broken my vow to cherish my W. I had to learn to forgive myself for that. Something that I am still working on.

3) The idea that iron is forged from fire. I decided that if my M could survive this, that it would ultimately be much, much stronger as a result. An affair is probably the single most difficult problem that a M can face... save maybe the death of a child. Can they survive and thrive, yes. There are stories here on this board of that happening. There are numerous books written on the subject. I decided that I wanted a M made of iron forged by fire. That's what I've chosen to strive for. As a result, I have learned tons about how difficult M is... how difficult being with one single person for our entire lives is. Can we really expect that there aren't going to be difficult times, that we aren't going to have to face the fact that we aren't always going to travel the exact same path as our spouse. We each are going to grow and change as the years pass. Bad things are going to happen. Poor choices are going to be made. But man, if I am with my W, my partner, at the end, if we have lived a life together that is happy for even 80% of that time, it will have been worth it. And what is a year, even two, when compared to 30, 40, 50, years together? It is a blip in the grand scheme of things.

4) Unconditional love. This is a concept that I had never really considered or thought about. What is it? This post from Truegritter's threads hit home with me and caused me to A LOT of reflection on what type of love I wanted to give and receive through the remainder of my life:

"We understand that what our spouse is doing is not to us. It is because of their fears and insecurities. It is because, in part, the way we have behaved. It is because most of all what THEY feel inside.

We understand that we have no control over this.

It is their choice and not about you BUT why would you want to stay in this because it still is causing you pain?

Why is it still causing you pain? What are we missing?

We all want to feel loved. We think about it, hope for it, fantasize about it, go to great lengths to achieve it, and feel that our lives are incomplete without it. The lack of unconditional love is the cause of most of our anger and confusion. It is no exaggeration to say that our emotional need for unconditional love is just as great as our physical need for air and food.

We learned that love was conditional, that we had to get it from the people around us with our words and behavior. And that is how we perceive it when it is given. We give then expect to get it.

Isn’t our marriage based on this? Isn’t this where it derailed?

If we leave now [AND IN THIS WAY] we confirm our ignorance of what love means and confirm that to our spouse that your love was not real but dependent and conditional.

You confirm again all the self loathing your spouse feels inside because the person that is supposed to love them hasn’t, won’t, and never will. You also confirm this most importantly in YOURSELF.

We want to know the mystery of love. The mystery of our marriage. To know ourselves.
To remove self doubt.

When you do that you begin to understand why you are standing for your spouse and your marriage.

And you start to learn what real love is.

Unconditional love is caring about the happiness of another without any thought for what we might get for ourselves. It’s also when other people care about our happiness unconditionally.

And what it is not
It is not what we have lived in our life and our marriage up to now. It is not controlling. It does not desire and force. It does not depend on action or inaction from our spouse.

And so as we let this soak in and as it takes hold we discover an amazing thing and it gives life to us and breaths hope into our spirits and that is:

Unconditional love is when we love despite the foolish choices of our spouse, when they fail to do what we desire, regardless of any choice they make. This love alone has the power to heal all wounds, deliver self respect and remove all doubt for you and your spouse. It allows love and healing to flourish.
This is how we need to be loved.

And this is the paradox.
That we only get this when we give it.

And now is the opportunity.

There is no GREATER opportunity you will ever have in your life then NOW to express this kind of love.

To do this takes greater courage than most people will ever understand and will ever know.

And you have received this wonderful gift only by going through the experience. By the trial.
By the tragedy.

What greater thing could you aspire to do.
EVER."


I'm not here to convince you of anything Bill, but the easy choice is not always the right choice.

What you have to decide man is whether or not your W and your M is worth it. No one can answer question but you.

Denver

[breakdownbill]

Hey Denver

Just read your post, I know what you are talking about with unconditional love. I do have that for my kids and I believe I have it for my wife (but as you say the true test will come in the weeks and months ahead).

I know that she wants me to get on with my life and be happy for the kids. She keeps on telling me you'll meet someone so much better than me etc etc (guilt talking).

I have to let her make these decisions on her own, without challenge. Take the dancing in my sitch for example, this is something that she gets friendship, the ability to express herself doing something she loves (dance), an emotional attachment to friends and another man (dance partner) and her physical and social needs are met. Now bearing in mind that she is a textbook WAW, I think my sitch is a little more problematic to overcome given the other variables.
* i.e. when I'm gone, her life is pretty full already and there won't be a gaping hole left by me, plus I'll still be around for the kids*

I'm not just up against another man, I'm up against her new (newish 2 .5 years) identity, circle of friends and what makes her happy.

Things might change over time, based on my own growth as an individual, how I interact and have fun with the kids and how I deal with our separation.

I'm not giving up, I'm just being realistic about what I'm up against. I have low expectations and I am starting to detach and think about me as an individual again.

I am fully aware of my role in my M and the part you said about not cherishing my W, that is what I feel most guilty about. I wish I'd have stood up for my M and showed her how I felt, when she still wanted me.

The only thing I can do now is regroup, keep working on myself, be a great dad & if there is an opportunity in the future to reconcile be ready to take it with both hands.

Bill

[breakdownbill]

I really think I'll know how my detaching is going by about this time tomorrow. My W is going back dancing & is going to be dancing with the OM and has told me straight that she doesn't care what I think about it.

To be fair, I know exactly where I stand and that we are no longer in any R - other than being friends and playing happy families for the unsuspecting little guys, who are yet to get the bomb themselves.

How I deal with these 2 situations will be my biggest immediate tests. The OM is old news to me now and I fully expect to be kept in the dark about if there is still an affair going on. Either way, that is her business - because we are no longer together in the sense of Husband and Wife.

I'll have to be strong for the kids when the time comes (which will be soon) and I need to make sure I'm as detached as I can be from their Mum in time for that bomb.

I just put my little girl to bed before and she said that she wants to save her picture frame that she won the other day to put a picture of all of us as a family outside Hogwarts when we go to Universal Studios. It made me feel happy, sad and kind of vindicated that I am doing the right thing going on holiday together.

On Sunday when we were arguing I said to my wife that I didn't want to bring the kids into our Relationship discussion. But when she said that they would be fine, I said, 'Can you remember all the Christmas's, Birthday's, days out and holidays and time spent as a family together'? W 'Yeah' Me 'Well imagine them without your Dad being there' She just took it as me guilt tripping her (yeah in part it was, but I wanted her to get a picture in her head just how much this is going to affect all of our lives not just mine & hers).

We've been getting on a lot better since Sunday, there is no tension between us. The conversations are comfortable, we always were good friends though.

I'm happy that I've felt good for 3 days about the sitch & not been thinking about what my W is doing. Just doing what I need to do. I'm getting there with the detachment and think I'll be ready when the time comes to tell the kids and move out.

Yeah I know moving out goes against what everyone says on here, but my W has said that if I don't go and make her go she will take the kids with her anyway, so I need to do what's best for the kids in that respect if one of us has to leave.

Although my post seems a little downbeat, I feel OK and I still want to be with my W - but I don't want to go back to the way things were, just as much as she does.

So I guess I'm saying that I'm going to take that long road, but I'm going to do some things my way & work on my 180's as I go.

Short term goals

Pass UNI
Make sure kids are OK
Continue with my Counselling
Detach

Anything else right now is a bonus

GAL will have to wait until May LOL

Bill

[YankeeCandle]

I don't know what to say Bill. It's obviously up to you what is best for you and whatever will help you feel better is the priority. I would suggest though that maybe before making a definitive decision, just try on detaching 'for size'. So, go dark and detach and see how that feels over a period of time. If that works best for you, then you can make it a definitive decision and announce it as such. Don't announce anything through to your W until you try it for yourself at first.

Also, I want to say that when I first separated from my H 1.5 years ago, he too went to a counselor. He also came to the same conclusion: he was unhappy for X number of years and didn't realise it until he started talking to the counselor.

But, 1.5 years later, he is no more happy! He has made very little progress in that time. In fact, at one point, we had a 3 month no contact separation (his idea) as he thought it would solve his unhappiness by making it all go away. He ended up having a panic attack.

I can honestly say that we have both been pretty unhappy with all this starting and stopping, and it has created a lot of instability (unlike anything we had before). What we really needed were solutions - not analysis.

The happiest he was in this 1.5 years was when I pulled us back together to work on things proactively - no questions asked, not looking back, just looking forward. It all went pear shaped when I lost my footing (hence current separation).

Despite him being 'convinced' divorce is the right way to go, I can pretty much guarantee neither of us are happy being without the other.

How I wished I could have found a solutions based therapistor coach!! The hassle it would have saved, the broken hearts, the hopelessness and sense of failure. Looking back now, we just didn't have the right tools and knowledge. That's how I see it.

I guess it's something we all learn as we go along.

BTW, my H and I have been together for a total of 17 years (married for 10 years) - and it's been the last 1.5 years that have seen us oscillating like this.

[breakdownbill]

Hi YC

I know what you are saying in a round about way about not making any definite decisions on my R. I haven't made any of these decisions really, I'm just listening to what my W is asking for - space (and for me to go). I honestly believe she wants to be single and to do what she wants right now, because that's how she says she has felt for a long time - single (but with the guilt).

I'm going to keep improving myself in every way possible & the dream is still for my W to want to really give us a shot again & to let me show her how my changes can help fix our relationship & make it stronger than ever.

I really have been unhappy for a long time. I'm not unhappy that I'm married to my wife - if I had my time again I'd marry her every time. But like everyone on here, we would have listened & changed our 'more of the same' behaviour, overcome our problems and cherished our spouses.


I think it is fair to say our WAS's are confused but we can't assume anything about what they are feeling. I suspect that the way we are up and down day to day - they are exactly the same - searching for validation - trying to prove to themselves that they are doing the right thing.

We've got to regain our self esteem, our confidence and our sense of freedom to become the real you and I again YC.

Your sitch is a lot further down the road to mine and it does sound like there are green shoots of hope & possibilities for you YC.

I'm only just starting really (accepting the reality) and I'm getting myself ready for a rough ride of highs and lows.

Bill

[breakdownbill]

OK I need to vent and let off some steam before tonight.

I'm happy that me and my W are being friendly again & the tension in the house has gone, it really has felt much better.

I'm just struggling a little with the detachment today, because of what's happening tonight (dancing with OM) & the fact that I know I've got to keep up my 'act as if' approach until I really mean it.

It's just a test, another test I keep telling myself & if it wasn't for this UNI work - I could be out GAL 'g to take my mind of things.

It's really hard when you know you have to let go, especially when you're completely conscious to what you are letting go, knowing that what you had may never come back again.

I keep on telling myself, it doesn't matter what she does now, because she's in WAW mode, but man is it a wrestle of your emotions. No matter how much you rationalise something, you still have to hurt and live within the reality of your own situation.

My kids keep me going, but I'll need to stay focused tonight & keep my mind away from things that will only do me harm.

I really hope I pass my 1st test & prove to myself that I am strong enough to let my W go freely into the tides of the night, so I can find myself and be strong enough to swim against the tide and find still waters.

Bill