I didn't see it coming...but now I see everything

[Norfolkdumpling]

Hey BDB, Denver is bang on the money for some stuff but you have to also go with your instincts. Every day is a trial, I was in the same house with my H, though in seperate bedrooms. I found I got obsessed with the minutiae. The ONLY thing that helped was GAL.

I believe that what Denver says about the holiday is true, explain calmly & rationally why you accept that she isn't going but that you believe it is imperative you go with the children. I don't want to offend you but if you truly look into your heart & examine your reasons for not wanting to go without her, it is probably partly to do with the kids but also your own feelings about that situation. The "right" & "wrong" of such a situation shouldn't be an issue.

I am talking from experience here. This will be a painful but very clear way to show your W you are disenaging. As Denver says as long as you do it lovingly it is a powerful way to demonstrate that you have voice, & you can make choices about your life. Also, when I started to go out to see my friends until 01:00am without explanation, even though my H was having a PA it did get his attention.

Finally as a woman, at least in my experience of me & my friends, we sit up & notice when men challenge us a little. I'm not saying you should start acting like a total d**k but if you give her the impression she's in charge, however subtle, she won't thank you for it.

[YankeeCandle]

I am so glad you and your W had a good ending to the day!!

Here I am just venting....

I didn't control our time together - although that's what he perceives at the moment. My issue was that we rarely spent time together. This is what I was hollering about. Anyway, it's like my H is looking for issues to have a problem with. I was thinking about it today, and I feel like throwing in the towel. Of course I won't just yet, but that's how I am feeling today.

However, I definitely like the way you describe the effects of having a fear of confrontation. My H rarely confronted - for sure - instead his mode of 'confrontation' was to become cold and distant. Oh don't get me started on that one!

You are right, guys don't talk about the way they feel so when they dig around, suddenly there are issues. But of course there are issues!! My H says regularly, "I want the relationship, I just don't want the issues." When I tell him that all relationships have issues that need working on, he looks at me in disbelief. OMG - I'm not sure I will have the patience this is gonna take!!

Ok - I feel exasperated by the whole thing today. So, take all this with a grain of salt - thanks!

[Denver_2010]

Take some time and think about that. What is it that this guy is giving her that she has not been receiving from you? - He made her feel like an attractive, fun to be around woman and desired her and openly flirted with her.

For me, it will mean being more creative with my compliments on how she looks, making her feel confident, sexy and wanted. Being there to listen to her thoughts, feelings and events and reacting to her in a positive way.

Initiating more physical contact & flirting - being more spontaneous, being more affectionate in public.

standing my ground on what I believe in - and ideally working with my wife to compromise how we resolve our differences & always make up affectionately.




Have you read the chapter in DR about the Last Resort Technique (LRT)? Yes, I've read That thanks Denver and a lot of it is hard to put in place living under the same roof - hence yesterday's episode. But I'm continuing to work on myself & trying to listen more & more to what my W wants.

I know that you are disappointed that your W does not want to go on the family vacation. But do you really want to go with this person as things stand now? I'd suggest telling her that she is right, that she shouldn't go. But that you are going to go. - I 100% want her there for the kids - they are only 6 and 8 - 2 weeks without their mum on a holiday of a lifetime is just plain wrong. Even if we fake it, the kids come first - on that holiday & in general.

You're going to need to detach big time now.

As for her asking for divorce goes? Well, I guess it depends on what you decide about waiting things out. If you want to save your marriage, then, IMO, you need to buy as much time as possible. So, don't bring this back up. If and when she does, I'd suggest telling her something like what I told my W when she brought up the D word: To be fair, she isn't ready for that & we discussed that last night - I think she does just need space & if she still wants a separation, come the 8th of May - I will move out for a trial separation - and we can just keep an open dialogue on how we both feel if things change. I can't move out at the moment - not working & too much stress with UNI - couldn't deal with the kids reaction on top of all that as well right now.

"W, I've told you before that I still love u and still think that we can have a great life together as both a couple and a family. I have not changed my mind on that. But I understand that you are not happy, that u don't feel happy or complete inside. U need to do what will make u happy. By my side, we can be partners and will share everything and we would do anything to help one another. But that's only if we continue as a team. but I won't stand in your way, but also won't help u leave this marriage or our family. I hope that u do find happiness u r looking for. go do what u need to do. You know where I will be." - Good Advice & well said

As for what I mean when I say "lovingly detach"? When I asked what this meant, the best definition that I got came from Jack3Beans. He said (I fixed his spelling errors - You're welcome Jack!):

"Lovingly detach...Pretty word that 'lovingly'. Beats angsty I suppose. To me detach means to not get drawn into their drama, not allow yourself to react to their bad actions either directly toward or in directly. Lovingly, I suppose means... If you child was throwing a tantrum for no reason, you'd ignore them (possibly), but be around and comfort them later when their tantrum was over." - totally get the definition of lovingly detach now - Thanks Denver / Jack

I feel like I'm all over the board with what I'm telling you Bill and not being as clear as I'd like. Part of the problem is that you are still in the same home as your W, and I was not. It was easier for me to detach (not saying that it was easy or that I was all that successful). And it was easier for me to go dark on my W when I needed to. I would suggest that as well, but it is not going to be easy with her in the same home as you. So mainly, you need to stop engaging her in conversation, and when she engages, be polite, but don't get drawn in. I actually think that not asking her about her doctor's appointment was good (unless it was a life threatening thing of course). Stay away from R talk at all costs right now. Be a good dad, GAL as much as you can, especially away from home if you can. Detach, detach, detach... try to have a positive mental attitude... and if you can't, fake it til you make it. She needs to see that you are a positive thinking person and that you are upbeat, even if things are cr*ppy for you right now. No one wants to be around a depressed person. If you need to cry or be upset, go for a drive, or go for a walk. Don't do it in front of her. No more temper tantrums in front of her. (totally agree) you are right, they are damaging, and definitely not what you want to be doing.

Go read the chapter on LRT and come up with a plan as to how you are going to implement it. Set a time frame on which you are going to stick with your plan, say 2 weeks, and then reassess.

You need a plan, a strategy, and then you need to stick to it.

- My plan is to just keep focusing on making me a better person, being supportive & receptive of when my W needs me - being there for her & being the best dad I can be. Those are vague - and I will get some specific ones written down though that I'm thinking of in relation to 180's for me & my sitch.
Denver

Thanks Denver, your advice means a lot to me.

Bill

I get what you are saying Bill, but until she is shown what she stands to lose if she continues with her actions, she has no reason to reflect on her choices or change her behavior.

I would strongly advise that you NOT move out of your home. She is the one choosing this. NOT YOU.

Again, lovingly detach. You state that you are going to continue to be there for her. If you are, why would she choose to change her behavior?? She has the best of both worlds. This has been something that I have struggled balancing as well. You want to be the "lighthouse", but you also have to show some tough love. She has to see that she stands to lose her husband if she stays on the current path... but not only that, she needs to also see what she will be missing when she loses you.

I fear that she is not going to come anywhere close to seeing her life without you as long as you continue to be there for her.

You have to find a way to detach from her and show her that you are capable and willing to move on with your life happily. Otherwise, you will be spinning your wheels for a very long time.

Yes, your kids come first, but I do not see any reason why you can't take them on this vacation without your W. SHE is choosing this path Bill! Not you. There has to be consequences for that choice. One of those consequences will be that she does not get to go on nice "family" vacations. Will you continue to go on vacation with her if she Ds you? Will you continue to go on vacation if she continues on with OM?

I've lived much of this Bill. Some things I have done right, others I have not. One thing that I wish that I had done much earlier was show my W that I would not be a part of her life as long as OM was. I did not set and enforce that boundary until I was a good 8 months into my situation. I could have knocked months off of my misery had I done so. I truly believe that.

Be a good person, a good dad, take care of your duties around the house. But this person is not your W right now.

Denver

[breakdownbill]

Hi Norfolk

I can totally see your point of view about a lot of things and I really do need to start disengaging from my W. However, I disagree about the holiday, my children are pretty young and I want them to go on this holiday with their mum and dad, not for me, for them. I don't care how awkward or testing it may be, my kids come first. Future holidays will be different if we split, but this holiday has been planned for 3 years and the kids deserve to have us both there.

The major problem, I have about getting out and GAL is the stress i'm under @ uni trying to meet my deadlines because i'm really behind and struggling now. To make matters worse my W is helping me type up a lot of my work to help me out. I want to detach, but I find it incredibly hard, i'm trying though.

Thanks Bill

[breakdownbill]

Hi YC

I think it's really good that we share our feelings about our partners, because it's helping us understand how they feel / felt.

I'm starting to seriously consider my options about moving out, because I don't think I can detach whilst i'm living in the same house. I'd have to see the kids everyday though, couldn't be a weekend dad.

Guys are pretty stupid when it comes to relationships and women are very complex and emotionally literate.

I know what you mean about the patience, and i'm thinking that I am not gonna wait around while she finds herself and continues her PA.

I too am not quite ready to throw in the towel, but I am not gonna be treated like this.

I've got Counselling today, boy I need it!

Take care YC

Bill

[breakdownbill]

Hey Denver

I haven't got time to respond properly to your post got to run and get kids to school.

I'll reply later buddy

Take care

Bill

[YankeeCandle]

Hi YC

I think it's really good that we share our feelings about our partners, because it's helping us understand how they feel / felt.

I'm starting to seriously consider my options about moving out, because I don't think I can detach whilst i'm living in the same house. I'd have to see the kids everyday though, couldn't be a weekend dad.

Guys are pretty stupid when it comes to relationships and women are very complex and emotionally literate.

I know what you mean about the patience, and i'm thinking that I am not gonna wait around while she finds herself and continues her PA.

I too am not quite ready to throw in the towel, but I am not gonna be treated like this.

I've got Counselling today, boy I need it!

Take care YC

Bill

It is a good thing to understand from another's perspective - thanks for pointing that out. I think I had a bad day yesterday because I'm pretty ok today and felt love again in my heart. So, there will always be days of ups and downs, it's the long run that counts

Yes, even though we are not throwing in the towel, we must look after our wellbeings. So, you are right, don't allow yourself to be treated in a way that may lower your self-esteem. It is bad enough feel rejected, but to pile up further injury makes no sense. Of course, if I was completely an enlightened human being, I'd be able to see their current behavior as their lack of vision that is causing them to behave with such insensitivity towards another human being - and then let it roll of this duck's back. But, until that day comes, I will just keep an eye out for myself, as you

You go to uni - well, so do I! I was a total mess when all this started - even started crying at a meeting I had with one of my tutors. I was mortified and thought I was able to keep my personal life separate from my student life. I learned that lesson! Fortunately, I am in the arts, so we get to express a lot through our art and the tutors accept that. Is there anyway of incorporating your current personal sitch into your Uni work? Just an idea to help relieve some of the pressure.

YC

[breakdownbill]

I get what you are saying Bill, but until she is shown what she stands to lose if she continues with her actions, she has no reason to reflect on her choices or change her behavior.

I would strongly advise that you NOT move out of your home. She is the one choosing this. NOT YOU.

Again, lovingly detach. You state that you are going to continue to be there for her. If you are, why would she choose to change her behavior?? She has the best of both worlds. This has been something that I have struggled balancing as well. You want to be the "lighthouse", but you also have to show some tough love. She has to see that she stands to lose her husband if she stays on the current path... but not only that, she needs to also see what she will be missing when she loses you.

I fear that she is not going to come anywhere close to seeing her life without you as long as you continue to be there for her.

You have to find a way to detach from her and show her that you are capable and willing to move on with your life happily. Otherwise, you will be spinning your wheels for a very long time.

Yes, your kids come first, but I do not see any reason why you can't take them on this vacation without your W. SHE is choosing this path Bill! Not you. There has to be consequences for that choice. One of those consequences will be that she does not get to go on nice "family" vacations. Will you continue to go on vacation with her if she Ds you? Will you continue to go on vacation if she continues on with OM?

I've lived much of this Bill. Some things I have done right, others I have not. One thing that I wish that I had done much earlier was show my W that I would not be a part of her life as long as OM was. I did not set and enforce that boundary until I was a good 8 months into my situation. I could have knocked months off of my misery had I done so. I truly believe that.

Be a good person, a good dad, take care of your duties around the house. But this person is not your W right now.

Denver

Hi Denver

I've been doing a lot of thinking about my sitch & currently as things stand my wife is openly admitting to me that she is going back to dancing on Thursday & will be dancing with the OM and that she doesn't care. (well she knows how I feel about it, so if she's saying she doesn't care- she has zero respect for me - I won't be used anymore)

My counselling sessions have revealed to me just how unhappy I have been in our marraige for a long time too, I just didn't deal with it.

Last week I was 100% for saving my marraige, but right now I'm 50 / 50 at best. The holiday text - was a big thing to me, because she put herself before the kids & she went down even further in my estimation as a decent human being.

The person my wife has turned into isn't the person I married and unless we both seriously worked at our communication and problem solving behaviour - nothing will change.

My Wife said that she has done what other people want her to do all her life, but no more she is doing what she wants to do. (I'm done pleading for another chance)

My only hopes of a future reconciliation are 3 fold

If between now & May when my UNI work is over, and my W has second thoughts about the separation.

If she realises that when I'm gone things feel different and incomplete

If our holiday reunites our bond as a family and a couple

Oh and if the OM either drops dead or they lose interest.

But then I need to factor in me, every day of hurt makes me question why I'm putting myself through this. What am I fighting for? a Wife who has helped make me feel miserable for the last few years and cheated on me, that shows little signs of remorse? If it wasn't for the kids, I question whether I would still be here now after all this crap.

I deserve better than that, we all do.

I'm detaching, I'm venting here, but I'm faking being happy around my W (well today I did at least), I might feel different tomorrow or next week,but right now I feel a lot of resentment towards my wife. But we get days like this right?

Bill

[Denver_2010]

But we get days like this right?

Absolutely we do Bill.

[sandi2]

The major problem, I have about getting out and GAL is the stress i'm under @ uni trying to meet my deadlines because i'm really behind and struggling now.

Could you go to the public library to do your work? You don't have to tell her where you're going. (Maybe add a bit of mystery.) It's not like GAL, but it will get you out of the house and a strained environment. I would think it might help you stay focused on your studies, too. But, you can't spill your guts by telling her everything.