I didn't see it coming...but now I see everything

[breakdownbill]

Thanks Denver

I think I'm starting to get the hang of this now, but I just need the guidance from people like yourself who are further along their journey's giving me encouragement and good advice. I didn't have that conversation and I'm just going to keep trying harder to stay more positive around her. It's really hard to know what the best thing to do is in some situations, sometimes your conscience gets the better of you & tempts you from breaking some of Sandi's 37 rules.

I've got nothing left to lose, so I may as well stay on track detaching, i like your view - lovingly detach (like loving from a distance). I've been finding it really hard to focus on my UNI work lately but it's now proving to be a welcome distraction & a different pressure.

Thanks for the good GAL advice, I'll have to try harder on that front. I'm taking the kids swimming in the morning - so that'll be the highlight for me this weekend. Take care Denver & I hope you have fun as well this weekend.

Cheers Bill

[breakdownbill]

Thanks Norfolk

I only just got your posts because of the moderation delays so apologies on that front. Yeah, I'm working on the GAL side of things, and I need to make more of an effort there are things I can do that don't cost a lot. I've got 7 weeks left @ UNI & TBH I have just about got enough time to finish everything as I've fallen behind with what has gone on in my sitch. I had a blast this morning swimming with my main man S6 and that has left me in a good mood. I'm just waiting for W to come back so I can go out to the library for a bit, before she goes out tonight. I'm not working right now, so that is an issue too. But to be fair my W spent £10k from my redundancy on home improvements & a holiday to Florida, so if that makes me a sponge for not working for 3 months I can live with that. My course finishes on May 8th after which I'll be looking for full time temping work until my PGCE starts in Sept.

I'm working on some other 180's being more decisive. For example being more assertive, i.e I'm going, I'm doing. I'm not taking any more of her moods. I feel a bit like Brett in DR story around the 180 part. Well that's about to change, no more cups of tea, (her) washing and (excessive - ie me doing it all) cleaning gonna get done by me.

Thanks Norfolk for posting bits about your sitch, there's bound to be a similar thread on here that you can relate to - the DR book is great - loving the advice I'm getting from it :-)

[Biker9363]

Sounds like you're moving in a good direction. Sticking to the 37 rules is tough. Hard to always look happy etc when your heart is broken, I know.

[Norfolkdumpling]

Hey Bill, glad you got my posts eventually, I understand why they have moderate them but it can be frustrating. I hope you got one they sent to you as a PM hopefully? If you can't make use of the sessions please can you let me know so I can donate them to anyone they feel would benefit? I saw your initial posts on here & felt I had to register & see if I could help, especially as we are both in Blighty!

My sitch is now pretty brilliant, I feel like there is some joy in my life after a long time. That said, I will never forgot it & I take nothing for granted, but the stuff I used to think was important just isn't any more!! Thankfully for us the moment my H realised I was done being understanding & he had to take responsibility for what he was doing he said it was like he "woke up". I had some DB counselling with Laurie which really helped me, I truly could have talked to her for hours, what a wonderful, compassionate, sincere lady. I was only going through this for a few weeks, but it felt like years. There are some incredible people out there who deal with this "limbo" for literally years. I respect them so much.

What I found helped was reading the book, looking on here, talking to two trusted, loyal, friends & GAL. It's almost like you are living some sort of emotional experiment. I don't know about you but I couldn't eat, sleep, or concentrate but I forced myself to do what I thought would work. As much as you may look at your W now as if she is a stranger, don't forget you do know her intimately. Go with your instincts, mine served me pretty well for the most part.

Also one thing that really helped me was exercising. Doing a really tough, punishing workout was strangely cleansing. I read a lot of stuff about M's & R's when going through this & one guy wrote something along the lines of "feelings come & go, we cannot become a slave to them" - that really resonated with me. When all said & done you will look back at this time & realise it made you better, stronger & far more self sufficient. Whatever happens I believe you have done the right thing by seeking to stay in your marriage. Keep on trucking buddy, I'm not religious but will be sending you good vibes up to Liverpool.

[breakdownbill]

I thought I was doing great with my GAL - had a blast yesterday with my S - went swimming & the park. Today I got up early and went for a run & then boom - I totally wasn't expecting my wife to get into a R conversation - I blew it!!

It started off with a conversation about how I only talk about myself - to which I stupidly replied, 'I'm just trying to make conversation - when I ask you about how your day was or if you had fun anywhere I just get 'Yeah'.

Well this escalated into a stupid argument, I said some things I wish I hadn't like - 'I hate the man I've turned into - I wished I had stood up to you in arguments & not always been the 1st to back down & not let you take the drivers seat - I qualified this by saying that it sounds like I'm blaming you - but I'm not - I'm blaming myself for how I reacted'. I said I'd been trying really hard to just give you space and to just try & be positive & get on with my life instead of moping around, doing loads of housework & that nothing is ever good enough.

By this point I was a complete mess, She'd said something about wanting it to be over, then I had a hissy fit & said I hated my life & started punching myself in the face (WTF!!!) I calmed down after some tears & did end up having a clear the air conversation with my W - but any chances I had of reconciling without a formal separation are completely redundant.

I was an idiot!! (So angry with myself for not walking away)

I've had to take the line of we need support each other and be friends. But this is a setback I don't think she'll forgive me for.

While I was detaching & not texting - I forgot to ask her how her doctor's appointment went, so she's been majorly annoyed with me since Tuesday & it came to a head today.

She wants to discuss how we are going to address this separation / Divorce & that she doesn't feel anything for me in that way anymore.

I'm absolutely besides myself - I'm such an idiot for not walking away.

I think I'm screwed & need to just accept this now

[breakdownbill]

Oh great, now she doesn't want to go on our family holiday to Florida - could this day get any worse?

letting me know by text message - why am I even bothered she obviously couldn't care less about me.

I wish I would stop crying, I thought I'd hit rock bottom 2 weeks ago - right back there with bells on it.

She just apologised for being insensitive, wish I could stay mad at her & just detach.

I think I need to be on my own, this is no good for me, feeling like this every other day.

[YankeeCandle]

Hi Bill - so sorry to hear about this - BUT, it does happen. Do not beat yourself up. We all slip at times. So, just get up, dust yourself off and 'start' all over again.

Much of what you said to your W, are things my H has said to me. He wish he had stood up to me more, and not given in so easily - hence he sees me now as controlling the R. Again, I never saw it that way - but I respect his perspective. Do you think your W sees you as a wuss? I never saw my H as a wuss. He thinks of himself that way - not me. However, he did clearly lose some self-esteem just for the sake of keeping the peace. I am very sad about this and wish he would have been more vocal in his own needs. I wish I had been more relaxed too and more trusting.

It does come down to trust I found at the end of the day.

So - I would imagine that you would impress her quite a bit if you stood your ground - in many areas of your life. I was getting pretty tired of having to hold the boundaries of the R together for the two of us. I admit I needed a break in that department - which is giving me some peace these days. I too wished my H stood his ground much more in his own life with his friends, colleagues, clients - and the biggest of all - his mother!! I would have had profound respect for him and support of him - and would have had incredible admiration for him. I do have admiration for him, but I would have had even more admiration. Most importantly, I would have trusted him a great deal more. Consequently, I would have been far more relaxed and at ease - which is what he always wanted as well. ANYWAY!

So, back to you - stand your ground. Maybe that is your 180 where your W is concerned. She might kick up a fuss at the beginning, but she will get used to it if you are consistent. However, all be sure to listen to her and let her have her own life as well. After that, who knows - you might inspire the admiration you BOTH require

[Denver_2010]

Ugh, sorry to hear that you've had a bad weekend Bill.

If you haven't already, you need to take a deep breath and regroup.

IMO, and this is JUST my opinion Bill, but it sounds to me like your W is emotionally wrapped up with OM. Most definitely an EA and most likely a PA as well. From experience, the EA part of things is worse than the PA... at least in regards to your chances of reconciliation.

I'm not saying that reconciliation can't happen, but as long as she is emotionally attached to OM, you are not going to get anywhere. This has been, by far, the most difficult obstacle in my situation.

You're going to need to decide whether or not you want to wait this out Bill. Most affairs do not last. That's what the statistics say... so I hear anyway. I've heard that the average amount of time it takes for an affair to end is 6 months. I can't say that is true in my sitch, but it was only about a month before serious cracks began to show. I think that had I handled things just a bit differently, I could have cut down the amount of time that it has taken. But that is a different story.

It's the emotional attachment that you need to be most concerned about. OM is providing something for your W that you have not been providing. Or, at least that is generally the case. Take some time and think about that. What is it that this guy is giving her that she has not been receiving from you?

If and when the time ever arises, you are going to need to be prepared to begin giving that to her. I don't think that now is the time.

Have you read the chapter in DR about the Last Resort Technique (LRT)? If not, I'd suggest skipping the rest and going straight to this. I'd suggest that you begin LRT now.

I know that you are disappointed that your W does not want to go on the family vacation. But do you really want to go with this person as things stand now? I'd suggest telling her that she is right, that she shouldn't go. But that you are going to go.

You're going to need to detach big time now.

As for her asking for divorce goes? Well, I guess it depends on what you decide about waiting things out. If you want to save your marriage, then, IMO, you need to buy as much time as possible. So, don't bring this back up. If and when she does, I'd suggest telling her something like what I told my W when she brought up the D word:

"W, I've told you before that I still love u and still think that we can have a great life together as both a couple and a family. I have not changed my mind on that. But I understand that you are not happy, that u don't feel happy or complete inside. U need to do what will make u happy. By my side, we can be partners and will share everything and we would do anything to help one another. But that's only if we continue as a team. but I won't stand in your way, but also won't help u leave this marriage or our family. I hope that u do find happiness u r looking for. go do what u need to do. You know where I will be."

As for what I mean when I say "lovingly detach"? When I asked what this meant, the best definition that I got came from Jack3Beans. He said (I fixed his spelling errors - You're welcome Jack!):

"Lovingly detach...Pretty word that 'lovingly'. Beats angsty I suppose. To me detach means to not get drawn into their drama, not allow yourself to react to their bad actions either directly toward or in directly. Lovingly, I suppose means... If you child was throwing a tantrum for no reason, you'd ignore them (possibly), but be around and comfort them later when their tantrum was over."

I feel like I'm all over the board with what I'm telling you Bill and not being as clear as I'd like. Part of the problem is that you are still in the same home as your W, and I was not. It was easier for me to detach (not saying that it was easy or that I was all that successful). And it was easier for me to go dark on my W when I needed to. I would suggest that as well, but it is not going to be easy with her in the same home as you. So mainly, you need to stop engaging her in conversation, and when she engages, be polite, but don't get drawn in. I actually think that not asking her about her doctor's appointment was good (unless it was a life threatening thing of course). Stay away from R talk at all costs right now. Be a good dad, GAL as much as you can, especially away from home if you can. Detach, detach, detach... try to have a positive mental attitude... and if you can't, fake it til you make it. She needs to see that you are a positive thinking person and that you are upbeat, even if things are cr*ppy for you right now. No one wants to be around a depressed person. If you need to cry or be upset, go for a drive, or go for a walk. Don't do it in front of her. No more temper tantrums in front of her. you are right, they are damaging, and definitely not what you want to be doing.

Go read the chapter on LRT and come up with a plan as to how you are going to implement it. Set a time frame on which you are going to stick with your plan, say 2 weeks, and then reassess.

You need a plan, a strategy, and then you need to stick to it.

Denver

[breakdownbill]

Much of what you said to your W, are things my H has said to me. He wish he had stood up to me more, and not given in so easily - hence he sees me now as controlling the R. Again, I never saw it that way - but I respect his perspective. Do you think your W sees you as a wuss? I never saw my H as a wuss. He thinks of himself that way - not me. However, he did clearly lose some self-esteem just for the sake of keeping the peace.



So, back to you - stand your ground. Maybe that is your 180 where your W is concerned. She might kick up a fuss at the beginning, but she will get used to it if you are consistent. However, all be sure to listen to her and let her have her own life as well. After that, who knows - you might inspire the admiration you BOTH require

Hi YC

Thanks for your reply, what you were saying about how your husband felt, is exactly how I felt. When you have in the back of your mind that you know if you get into an argument or disagreement about something, that your partner will never back down it really knocks your confidence. It stops you from being the person you are out of fear of confrontation, so you stop being spontaneous and question what you do, and before you know it when there was an opportunity to do something it passes. When this is mirrored with your W's taking charge & planning all your time together, sandwiched with a resentment for this & you avoid conflict when they are upset. Well you get the picture it's a cycle that stops a man, from being a boy. What I mean by that is that it kills your sense for adventure and de-motivates you in a way you wouldn't believe. The sad thing is that because guys don't about their feelings with other guys we just accept our lot & carry on in ignorance.

Although yesterday was awful it ended well. (I think). My W apologised for sending the text and said that she really wants to still go, but just felt bad that I'd paid for the entire holiday & thought I might not want her there. I was really upset about this, so she picked me up from the library @ UNI with the kids. We had a good talk, we did get onto the subject about separation & it did look like it was going to turn nasty at one point, but I backed off and we talked about what we wanted from a Relationship & agreed that we wanted the same things.

We were friends again & when we went to bed. I turned ro my W and said, 'You know what's rubbish about these arguments?' my W says, 'What?' I said , 'no make up sex' she laughed and said, 'I'm so horny but it's wrong' and we kissed and did have that make up sex, that wasn't really make up sex. No because I initiated this, this was a 180 in terms of initiating this & my W loved that. So I feel that I've refreshed my W's memory as to how things could be.

Anyway, I think we cleared the air about a load of issues and I said to her that I wanted to keep working on myself and explained that I was liking how I'd been feeling, by trying new things & that I loved my new outlook on life. My W said that she could see a dramatic improvement in the way I do things, how I am with the kids and that she is really proud of me.

There were many positives & negatives to come out of the day. It is a rollercoaster, but I honestly think that detachment is not for me if we are living in the same house. I will probably agree to a temporary separation in May, if my W still feels the same way.

I know I broke a lot of rules, but honestly detaching whilst living in the same house was not working & I feel I was right to stop. I honestly feel that if my W is happy & can see the changes in me prior to any possible separation, she will realise what she is missing.

I'm going to keep working on my goals for me and spend my time better.

Thank you YC for your post, that really helped me get a perspective on my feelings. We even discussed OM & my W said that she hadn't been in contact with him for over a fortnight & that it is over. She did say that she is going to carry on dancing with him and be friends with him. I said that I can totally understand the dancing and that I trust you. I said that I don't control you or any of your decisions, and that she knew how I feel about her.

I am hoping that whatever happens over the next few months we continue to get closer & that our holiday puts our R in a different light.

These are hopes, not expectations which are low - but there are positives & signs that this can still work.

Bill

[breakdownbill]

Take some time and think about that. What is it that this guy is giving her that she has not been receiving from you? - He made her feel like an attractive, fun to be around woman and desired her and openly flirted with her.

For me, it will mean being more creative with my compliments on how she looks, making her feel confident, sexy and wanted. Being there to listen to her thoughts, feelings and events and reacting to her in a positive way.

Initiating more physical contact & flirting - being more spontaneous, being more affectionate in public.

standing my ground on what I believe in - and ideally working with my wife to compromise how we resolve our differences & always make up affectionately.




Have you read the chapter in DR about the Last Resort Technique (LRT)? Yes, I've read That thanks Denver and a lot of it is hard to put in place living under the same roof - hence yesterday's episode. But I'm continuing to work on myself & trying to listen more & more to what my W wants.

I know that you are disappointed that your W does not want to go on the family vacation. But do you really want to go with this person as things stand now? I'd suggest telling her that she is right, that she shouldn't go. But that you are going to go. - I 100% want her there for the kids - they are only 6 and 8 - 2 weeks without their mum on a holiday of a lifetime is just plain wrong. Even if we fake it, the kids come first - on that holiday & in general.

You're going to need to detach big time now.

As for her asking for divorce goes? Well, I guess it depends on what you decide about waiting things out. If you want to save your marriage, then, IMO, you need to buy as much time as possible. So, don't bring this back up. If and when she does, I'd suggest telling her something like what I told my W when she brought up the D word: To be fair, she isn't ready for that & we discussed that last night - I think she does just need space & if she still wants a separation, come the 8th of May - I will move out for a trial separation - and we can just keep an open dialogue on how we both feel if things change. I can't move out at the moment - not working & too much stress with UNI - couldn't deal with the kids reaction on top of all that as well right now.

"W, I've told you before that I still love u and still think that we can have a great life together as both a couple and a family. I have not changed my mind on that. But I understand that you are not happy, that u don't feel happy or complete inside. U need to do what will make u happy. By my side, we can be partners and will share everything and we would do anything to help one another. But that's only if we continue as a team. but I won't stand in your way, but also won't help u leave this marriage or our family. I hope that u do find happiness u r looking for. go do what u need to do. You know where I will be." - Good Advice & well said

As for what I mean when I say "lovingly detach"? When I asked what this meant, the best definition that I got came from Jack3Beans. He said (I fixed his spelling errors - You're welcome Jack!):

"Lovingly detach...Pretty word that 'lovingly'. Beats angsty I suppose. To me detach means to not get drawn into their drama, not allow yourself to react to their bad actions either directly toward or in directly. Lovingly, I suppose means... If you child was throwing a tantrum for no reason, you'd ignore them (possibly), but be around and comfort them later when their tantrum was over." - totally get the definition of lovingly detach now - Thanks Denver / Jack

I feel like I'm all over the board with what I'm telling you Bill and not being as clear as I'd like. Part of the problem is that you are still in the same home as your W, and I was not. It was easier for me to detach (not saying that it was easy or that I was all that successful). And it was easier for me to go dark on my W when I needed to. I would suggest that as well, but it is not going to be easy with her in the same home as you. So mainly, you need to stop engaging her in conversation, and when she engages, be polite, but don't get drawn in. I actually think that not asking her about her doctor's appointment was good (unless it was a life threatening thing of course). Stay away from R talk at all costs right now. Be a good dad, GAL as much as you can, especially away from home if you can. Detach, detach, detach... try to have a positive mental attitude... and if you can't, fake it til you make it. She needs to see that you are a positive thinking person and that you are upbeat, even if things are cr*ppy for you right now. No one wants to be around a depressed person. If you need to cry or be upset, go for a drive, or go for a walk. Don't do it in front of her. No more temper tantrums in front of her. (totally agree) you are right, they are damaging, and definitely not what you want to be doing.

Go read the chapter on LRT and come up with a plan as to how you are going to implement it. Set a time frame on which you are going to stick with your plan, say 2 weeks, and then reassess.

You need a plan, a strategy, and then you need to stick to it.

- My plan is to just keep focusing on making me a better person, being supportive & receptive of when my W needs me - being there for her & being the best dad I can be. Those are vague - and I will get some specific ones written down though that I'm thinking of in relation to 180's for me & my sitch.
Denver

Thanks Denver, your advice means a lot to me.

Bill