Forgiveness

[SunFunOne]

Well said fig
Took the words right put of my mouth.
I'm getting too frustrated to post. Enough about the excuses. Do something. For someone who tells his ex he wants her to be happ with new guy - you don't seem to feel that way really.
Cut the contact & do what needs to be done. Actions & words news to match up here. Stop asking for advice without heeding all the great advice you've been given already
Barb

[25yearsmlc]

so no more texts to your son, even the nice ones telling him you love him. At most, one w/the word "love" on it would have sufficed. I'd feel smothered if I got that many texts from someone I was angry with. Plus you ignored what he asked of you...entirely.

It is hard for me to grasp his anger without you admitting any problems. I don't believe a kid that age can be "turned against" a parent by the other one, and besides, he was living with You...

You can pretend it's ALL about having no rules at his mom's, but he has had problems when he lived with you as well. Anyhow...

As for the counselling, it's not YOUR counselor he sees, it's a c the school suggested, right? Didn't the school require him to do "something" to show effort? Let your d know THAT...and how can counselling hurt him?

If it is all rehashing the past, or reliving the traumas all over again, your son may have a point. You may not recall all the things that happened to him if you were drinking or enraged.

Antlers ---No more "encouraging" the wife to "work together". She said NO. So Just forward the info and don't attach a note about how you wanted to make sure she had it...you send it in case you have to go to court and it shows you were communicating with her.

The rest of the words are all pursuit. And they sound as if you are coaching her on parenting and that infuriates her. She has a point. Let it go. Don't do what does not help...DB 101.

Lastly, I am frustrated by the frequent claim that this is all "new" to you b/c you "only let go" 4 months ago. The fact that you resisted so long, isn't a defense to changing so slowly overall.

Back off...and then back off some more. THAT would show some change.


Do you get what I'm saying?

I am sorry you feel so low right now. Seems you believe 4 months of changing some things, which they have not seen much of b/c of all the texts and drama with son, makes you feel entitled to reciprocity of some sort, and soon

or at least something better than what you are getting. Maybe in time.

What IS new in this is that you say you are changing. Okay I'll buy that.

But you have NOT given them nearly enough time to adapt to the new laid back NOT PURSUING, Antlers. The more you text the more it seems you are trying to control and that reeks of old Antlers...even if it's not true, it looks that way to them.

The old you, pushed and pushed to get his way - and what they see NOW is the new you, doing a lot of what looks the same...pushing and pursuing.

If they say "don't text" - then don't...

Antlers, How is the counselling YOU are getting, working out?

And what are your GAL activities? You MUST MUST MUST meet new people. Don't tell me you are too busy and make me get out my Alaskan list of GAL b/c you will embarass yourself. IF I could GAL THERE...you can wherever you are.

really!

[antlers]

Well said fig
Took the words right put of my mouth.
I'm getting too frustrated to post. Enough about the excuses. Do something. For someone who tells his ex he wants her to be happ with new guy - you don't seem to feel that way really.
Cut the contact & do what needs to be done. Actions & words news to match up here. Stop asking for advice without heeding all the great advice you've been given already
Barb

It is well said, and under circumstances different from mine, one might be able to do just that. Frustrated? I'm frustrated too! I feel I'm doing all I can do 'under these particular' circumstances. Facts are "excuses" to some who aren't involved or aware of the particulars here...that's NOT to say that I don't appreciate input. I do! I don't understand how you can deduce that I don't feel the way I say I do regarding her happiness. Cutting the contact seems prudent...doing "what needs to be done" is easier said than done in this particular instance. Do you doubt that I love my son? Do you not think that I'd do anything that I thought I could in order to help him? Really! I'm certainly not mad at you folks who offer advice...on the contrary, I appreciate the feedback/advice more than you know. But I feel some of you get frustrated/mad at me if I don't heed it. It is not a cut and dried situation. There are particulars to this situation that are different from others. Those have to be taken into consideration. They're not excuses. They're facts. I don't like it anymore than you guys do. The best action that I can see here, now, today is...since I've already done all I can to encourage her cooperation (and she's refused so far)...to just back off. Stop texting her, and stop texting him (even though my counselor has continually told me that I need to stay in touch with him). I've got so many well intentioned people telling me things that are completely opposite of each other that I myself don't know what to do! If advice from different well intentioned people is 180 degrees completely opposite of the advice from other well intentioned people, as I believe everyone involved is...then I confess...I'm pretty confused about what the best course of action is!

[SunFunOne]

So you're not going to do anything?

[antlers]

so no more texts to your son, even the nice ones telling him you love him. At most, one w/the word "love" on it would have sufficed. I'd feel smothered if I got that many texts from someone I was angry with. Plus you ignored what he asked of you...entirely.OK. I've been doing what my counselor advised me to do, "stay in touch". But I'll stop. After not hearing from him for 7 weeks I thought we might be able to have a dialogue at that time, since he texted me. I was wrong. I had no idea my 4 or 5 short texts would 'smother' him. I was trying to reestablish our emotional connection. As far as setting out all of his Abercrombie & Fitch clothes that I bought for him so he could "sell them"...that's not gonna happen.

It is hard for me to grasp his anger without you admitting any problems. I don't believe a kid that age can be "turned against" a parent by the other one, and besides, he was living with You...When have I not admitted any problems? I've been posting problems on this board since 2009...about me, about my kids, about our situation, and about everything it involves. I've not denied anything I've done or been responsible for. I've been brutally honest, especially about my failures and shortcomings. He has much anger and resentment regarding the dissolution of his family. Yep, he was living with me when he left to go to his moms. He didn't have hardly anything to do with his mom for a period of 2 years. A kid that age, especially one with emotional problems, can certainly be turned against his parent. My daughter told me that any text I send to her mother, she immediately lets her read it, and now that my son is there, she lets him read it too. What do you think her intentions are by doing that? If I send her a text because my son got suspended from school, and the very next day after he was allowed back he got suspended again...and I voice my concern to her and say that he needs help...and she lets him read it...what do you suppose her intentions are? I don't show them what she sends me. When she texted me derogatory comments about my daughter after our last court appearance...I did not show them to my daughter. Even though it would have been easy to hand her my phone and say "here's what your mom thinks about you". It would have been wrong.

You can pretend it's ALL about having no rules at his mom's, but he has had problems when he lived with you as well. Anyhow...He certainly did have problems (which I described earlier above) when he lived with me, but he also had some structure. He also had some consequences for bad behavior. He would test me, and he didn't like it when he was told 'no', or I didn't let him have his way, or if he got grounded. He was and is an emotional wreck...due to the depression and anger he feels.

As for the counselling, it's not YOUR counselor he sees, it's a c the school suggested, right? Didn't the school require him to do "something" to show effort? Let your d know THAT...and how can counselling hurt him?His school counselor and his vice principal strongly recommended professional counseling for him, so I followed their recommendation. I need to let my daughter know that...that it wasn't just me who decided to put him in counseling. Counseling can't hurt him. She's 15, and she's pretty wild, and she has her own opinions about stuff...even if some of them are very wrong.

If it is all rehashing the past, or reliving the traumas all over again, your son may have a point. You may not recall all the things that happened to him if you were drinking or enraged.I NEVER was a drinker. I was emotionally abusive, resentful, and angry. And I've admitted that from day 1. His professional counselor doesn't want to rehash the past, or relive any trauma. She just wants to help him with his anger and depression. She's trying to get him to simply talk, about whatever he wants to, but he so far refuses. Everyone on the other side of the family sent him derogatory communications about counseling after they found out about it...and they found out about it at the very beginning. They did instill negative conno0tations about it from the get go. He told my brother at the beginning that he didn't mind going, he just wanted people to leave him alone about it. But he is still worked on about it to this day.

Antlers ---No more "encouraging" the wife to "work together". She said NO. So Just forward the info and don't attach a note about how you wanted to make sure she had it...you send it in case you have to go to court and it shows you were communicating with her.OK. I get that. She's made it clear...much to my dismay. I'll continue to forward everything without anything that I have to say attached to it. I won't say anything. I'll just forward stuff. Darn shame though that she still puts her resentment toward me on a higher priority that what is best for our kids. She IS doing that. And I've honestly tried to get her to see that.

The rest of the words are all pursuit. And they sound as if you are coaching her on parenting and that infuriates her. She has a point. Let it go. Don't do what does not help...DB 101.Encouraging cooperation for the sake of the kids is pursuit? I've changed wording, run it by folks here, done everything I know to do so the RIGHT message would come across...but it's not only pursuing, it's "coaching" her on parenting? I don't want to do what does not help. But in this case it seems that genuine concern for the well-being of our kids does not help! And is pursuing! And is coaching her on parenting! I'm at a loss. I admit it.

Lastly, I am frustrated by the frequent claim that this is all "new" to you b/c you "only let go" 4 months ago. The fact that you resisted so long, isn't a defense to changing so slowly overall.I'm frustrated too sometimes that I'm not 'healed' in 4 months. I do feel like I've made progress in those 4 months, as slow as it's been. I did resist a long, long time. I commented about it once, and you said that if you looked back and saw that you messed up for holding on for too long...you'd rather make the mistake of holding on for too long...as opposed to letting go too soon. I agreed. It resonated with me. If I was wrong for doing that, then I was just wrong. I am doing my best to continue to make forward progress. I still mess up. I still have setbacks. But I am trying to continue to move forward.

Back off...and then back off some more. THAT would show some change.
I get that. I think that's the best advice under these circumstances. It's contrary to what my counselor has told me, but I still think it's best.

Do you get what I'm saying?YES I DO.

I am sorry you feel so low right now. Seems you believe 4 months of changing some things, which they have not seen much of b/c of all the texts and drama with son, makes you feel entitled to reciprocity of some sort, and soon

or at least something better than what you are getting. Maybe in time.I understand that completely. I feel pretty lonely. Seems like, to you, backing off...and backing off some more, and time...those are the keys. Those are the answers.

What IS new in this is that you say you are changing. Okay I'll buy that.

But you have NOT given them nearly enough time to adapt to the new laid back NOT PURSUING, Antlers. The more you text the more it seems you are trying to control and that reeks of old Antlers...even if it's not true, it looks that way to them.
I am. Slowly but surely. I understand, again, completely what you're saying here. And again I hear you saying that backing off...and backing off some more, and time...those are the keys. Those are the answers.
The old you, pushed and pushed to get his way - and what they see NOW is the new you, doing a lot of what looks the same...pushing and pursuing.That's not my intention...where before, it was. I can see how they might still see it that way though.

If they say "don't text" - then don't...OK

Antlers, How is the counselling YOU are getting, working out?Well, a lot of it is completely contrary to what I'm being advised to do here on this board. I'm kinda confused but, the main thing is to not do what doesn't work. That makes sense to me.

And what are your GAL activities? You MUST MUST MUST meet new people. Don't tell me you are too busy and make me get out my Alaskan list of GAL b/c you will embarass yourself. IF I could GAL THERE...you can wherever you are.Right now I've lost myself in physical activities. There are a good number of people that I ride road bikes and mountain bikes with. Some of them I consider pretty good friends. They're mostly all married women. I've been taking some long road rides with friends, and even longer ones when I'm by myself. Two of them recently have been 105 miles and 106 miles respectively. And we'll ride anywhere from 10 to 40 miles on the trails on mountain bikes. And I go to the gym and ride the trainer and do some lifting after working my 12 hour shifts in the ER. And on days off when the weather or the wind are too bad for riding...I go to the gym on those days too. I haven't been doing many other things...except for some climbing and hiking in the mountains when I feel like doing those things.

really!

[antlers]

One other thing 25, my youngest daughter and I have eaten lunch together for the past 3 days. She told me when my son was suspended, one of her friends came over to hang out with him when he was alone at his mom's house for those days that he was suspended. This boy is one year older than my son, he's in my daughters grade and used to go to school with her before he got kicked out of school for the year...for getting caught multiple times skipping class to smoke weed. His other friend that comes over to hang out with him and run around late at night got arrested yesterday for stealing laptops from a friends house. My son has NO supervision at all anymore. None. My niece who is 26 got a call from him very late the other night, on a school night, to see if she could give him a ride from where he was (not home) to somewhere else. He is basically 'running wild'. When the teachers at our failed team meeting at the school found out from me that my son was running around with the boy who got arrested...they all got an immediate look of dismay on their faces, and voiced their concerns...because they are all familiar with him. He is kicked out of school for the entire year also. And was the year before that too.
My daughter runs with a rough crowd also. Those are the words her mother used when she ran away recently. When I told her mom that very thing back in December, she accused me of fabricating that "lie". My daughter texted me over the weekend and said she was "cruising" with 4 other hispanic boys (one of them 20) and was in a neighboring town. She told me today that the 20 year old called her at 3 o'clock this morning. She admitted that her mother was "at home with Steve" while she was out late with this bunch. My daughter's boyfriend was over at her house until 3:30 in the morning last Saturday night (per my daughter). She said her mom and 'Steve' were in her bedroom. It is truly a messed up situation. My kids are running wild. Neither of them have any supervision. My daughter says her mom is gone all the time.
My concern for my kids is genuine. And my effort to get cooperation from their mom regarding their well being was genuine also.

[antlers]

So you're not going to do anything?

I'm still thinking about what 'to do' or what 'not to do' under these particular circumstances.

[~ kd ~]

Antlers, I just want to add my own thoughts.

First, is it possible that what your HAVE BEEN doing (regarding your W as wells as your kids) is not working?

If you think it is working (just refer to the results and if there are any negative aspects to things) then keep doing what you are doing.

If you feel things ARE NOT working, then it is time to change what you are doing. How ever that may look.

Like you, my kids are with my W during the week. I am concerned right now about my D14. I do not have any evidence and do not currently expect her to be skipping or things like that. But I do not doubt that as she gets older, there may be a desire to skip classes and hang at the empty house (when W is at work) with her friends. She has already had one (knbown) incident with pot and has likely dabbled in alcohol, as well. My W has also left D14 to her own designs for the most part, in the evenings... and on weekends when my W is out with her own friends.

Anyhow, the point is... what would I do if my W were unwilling to discipline or restrict. And I would have to say that, regardless of whether my D14 hated me for it or not, I would seek legal counsel and perhaps have mandatory supervision required for her in those situations.

So again, to paraphrase 25's motto in her sig...

"Would you rather be your kid's friend... or their parent...?"

This is about the current future and well being of your child(ren), regardless of whether they feel you are somehow ruining their lives.

[antlers]

If you feel things ARE NOT working, then it is time to change what you are doing. How ever that may look.

Even if it 'looks' like I'm not doing anything?

I'm pondering what 25 said.....

"Back off...and then back off some more. THAT would show some change.
But you have NOT given them nearly enough time to adapt to the new laid back NOT PURSUING, Antlers. The more you text the more it seems you are trying to control and that reeks of old Antlers...even if it's not true, it looks that way to them.
The old you, pushed and pushed to get his way - and what they see NOW is the new you, doing a lot of what looks the same...pushing and pursuing."

[SunFunOne]

Everyone here is giving you great advice. 25 is referring to backing off on texting/communicating because it seems that is more for YOU than for them.

But don't back off on getting your son into the program the school suggested. Doing NOTHING is far worse in this situation. Worrying about how your daughter feels about it is absolutely no excuse to DO NOTHING.

By doing NOTHING - you are condoning your son's behaviour even if you don't agree with it. If he were my son - I'd go over there and haul his ass straight into the school and arrange the program from there. I would take ACTION.

You can disagree and write on here till the cows come home but if you don't take action - who will? Obviously not your ex.

And seriously - when I said that your words and actions don't match - I am talking about telling your wife you wish her love again. Then agonize over the new guy and how he is sleeping over etc. That makes the words seem insincere. I can honestly say that I'm not wishing my ex and maggot "love". I just don't care any more but I won't go that far.

But anyway - I post because of your children. To continue to tell us about it but do nothing is what is so frustrating. No - we are not there but then - you are. And you are the one who needs to step in and take ACTION. NOW!

Barb