When it's a one-way street...part 3

[Crazyville]

I am interested in it. I've already checked into it and I believe I have an open schedule. I have some real butts for instructors this semester that I have to work with, but I think it's looking good.

Thanks for your reference on it. Can you tell me what the accommodations are? Like do I need a rental car?

[25yearsmlc]

don't get weirded out, you can either make a hotel reservation or trust the community to provide. Show up and make your needs known, unless you prefer the solitude of a hotel.

[oldtimer]

CV,

If you don't find your H's fixing things a turn-on, then don't say it. That is very far from the point.

You seem to think what I write is about H and about H's interests. It isn't. What I write is all about YOU for your OWN sake. I don't know your H, I have no opinion about whether he is a decent guy. I have no opinion as to whether you should stay with him or not. I will almost surely never have any interaction with him.

I've been posting here for 10 years. I'm remarried, I have a 5 year old child. I'm not into the whole LBS/WAS thing. In particular, I'm not into coddling WASs OR LBSs. Neither "side" is the morally superior, neither side is "right" or "wrong." The biggest differences are (1) timing and (2) ability to own one's own stuff.

In any M with a WAS, the M [censored]. When LBS's on these boards get past the huge trauma of being bombed, they eventually admit it. An M doesn't just suck for one person, it [censored] for both people. One of the people is going to reach their limit first. That person becomes the WAS. The other person becomes the WAS.

Now, as a matter of fact, I think the LBS's are the luckier ones. The bomb trauma immediately shakes one up -- you are groundless, without the self you know, without your life. It is hard not to look inward. Most LBSs emerge stronger, better, compassionate people, no matter how things turn out. They learn much quicker to own their own stuff.

WASs however do not experience the huge loss for quite a long while. This is because while the WAS really IS gone from the LBS, the WAS also knows that the LBS is theirs for the plucking. The WASs do not have the sudden jarring to the system that puts things into perspective like the LBSs get. They continue to externalize their stuff, which is what you are doing. You take your pain and assign its cause to your husband.

But, of course, this too is a matter of timing. Because at some point the LBS will catch up. At some point the LBS will be just as done with the WAS as vice versa. It is at this point, the WAS wake up and begin the real introspective work. If the LBS lets go soon enough, maybe the M is saved. Maybe. Otherwise, there is a point of too much water under the bridge. The LBS lets go after D, the WAS is already remarried. Blah blah blah.

My point is this: You are simply ahead of your H in timing. To have a good life for yourself and a successful R with ANYONE, you are BOTH going to have to change A LOT. You can do that now, later, or never.

But, if you honestly want to know whether or not your M is worth saving, YOU have to be a person capable of a decent R. Until you are, YOU cannot see if your M is worth saving. Running away will not change you. This is ALL ABOUT YOU.

Do you really want to be the person I described? Until you learn to deal with and own your own stuff, you'll not find the better life you quite reasonably want for yourself.

So, rather that going into reactive B mode anytime anyone suggests something that might involve treating H with some modicum of decency, why not think about that suggestion as a way to change yourself? As a way to learn how to be a better, happier person yourself?

You are in pain. You want to make sure that H pays for it and are willing to do anything that might give him the slightest relief. You defend blindly against treating H with humanity.

I don't believe you want to be that person, whether or not you reconcile, or you wouldn't be posting here. So why not start taking steps to be who you want to be?

[oldtimer]

And, again, the simple question: why are you in such pain?

Can you not even label the pain, is it that hard to face? I understand if it is. I've been there. But nothing, including running from H, will get you where you want to be until you confront it.

[25yearsmlc]

I really like this ^^^^ analysis by OT.

Some people think I waited for my h for 2 years. I didn't.

He went off to the tundra and I filed for a sep to protect our assets and get our older d thru high school.

I was pretty done. I REALLY GAL big time. I accepted that the m was over. I eventually became pretty darn happy and at peace with my new life, discreetly began dating after the first year, so it took some hard work from h

for me to even consider reconciling.

So as OT is saying, I became the WAS, after being the LBS. And once I had truly let him go,

he sure seemed to wake up. He had the awakening I had. But that was never my goal b/c I believed we were done.

Hope what OT says makes sense to you b/c I also agree that you are externalizing so much of what is happening in you. And the LBS absolutely grows more than the typical WAS. Unless the LBSer stays stuck in the blame game. That can happen.

I got sick and tired of mc's telling me h was "being selfish" and "acting single" b/c that just meant I was "right, but powerless."

You SAY you want to know what TO DO and you do not want to go into detail about the exact nature of your interactions. That would have helped us advise.

In the interactions you do describe, I must say I find your behavior as unproductive as his is, and this is based on Your words here, not his. So I hope you'll take that in.

And note, almost every suggested course of action is rejected by you. "Too hard" or you are just not there yet or there's some reason you won't or can't.

I am not sure if you have taken ANY of the advice about what to DO.

Have you? I'm curious. What do you make of that?

It is hard to know what you really want. There are NO EASY solutions and no one will "declare you right". I used to actually want that. Now I see how obstructive that approach was, to real progress.

This isn't about being right, it's about being happy. Lose the scorecard.

In his world, he has his own scorecard and you are Not ahead. In his world, he's trying not to hurt you, but you seem angry at him often, and you seem to set him up for failure. You disrespect him and it shines/shows clearly that you feel little love for him (love that you are in touch with at least.)

How do you think HE feels? I mean have you really tried to empathize with him?

I think you are shaking your head now and telling yourself that we all "just don't get it" and that he is so offensive to you, all you want is something to hold onto...

but we keep saying the answer is INSIDE YOU, not him. Here is my main point-

The more you blame him and hold yourself harmless, the more powerLESS you are.

Do you see that?

Only by owning your issues (such as, hypothetically, being critical and judgemental) are you empowered to DO anything.

Otherwise it's all about getting HIM to change--and you cannot do that,

OR we can tell you it's over, and give you permission to leave him.

There are no secrets for finding peace in a mediocre marriage. I can't make you want to want it to work. I have been in that place and if there were no kids I'd have completed the divorce and not seen h again unless he chased me down somewhere.

But there are kids and so I listened and I worked on forgiving and letting go of the past b/c at some point it's like the vows say

"from this day forward" and letting go is essential.

It's never easy to repair damaged r's, but forgiveness is mandatory in ALL lasting marriages. Take that in...

But forgiveness is a learned skill. And it's a gift we give ourselves. Do you accept that?

IOW, his behavior or remorse, or lack thereof, is NOT relevant to you forgiving him. You letting go of the rage, IS relevant. And it's for you. You sound consumed by it and I have been there, done that.

When my anger consumed me, I was a LESS involved parent at a time when my d's needed me more. I was preoccupied and in pain. I wrongly believed that h and I had to agree on our marital history and our past.

We don't. All we have to do is agree on our future and again, "from this day forward."

If you keep acting defrauded by your h, and believe the only mistake you made was in choosing him, then

you are missing the opportunity for personal growth

that is the single good thing about being in this horrible situation.

It is [i]that personal growth from tragedy and our inward journeys, /i] that so many LBSers discuss here, that has lead us to the most contented time in our lives.

Don't let the one decent thing this situation offers you, painful growth from introspection and relationship work, fade out b/c you refuse to look deep within.

I believe if your h is as bad as you say and you are not seething or waiting to pounce on him then clearly he's not worth it. You are posting here, perhaps,

b/c you think there might be something in you that COULD love him again.


Make sense?

Finally, how does he get along with your sons? How do you think they feel about him?

They seem to enjoy his company since they want both of you at things. So, that means something, right?

[Crazyville]

First, I just want to say that I really appreciate the effort that you all are putting into me. You're obviously frustrated with me. I hope you don't give up. I'm not getting it, but that doesn't mean I don't want to. I've read the above posts 3 times already, I'm sure I'll read them again. You keep telling me that I need to work on myself, but that's exactly what I keep saying I want to do. Mostly, I don't even want to talk about H, so I'm not sure where the issue with that lies.

So, rather that going into reactive B mode anytime anyone suggests something that might involve treating H with some modicum of decency, why not think about that suggestion as a way to change yourself? As a way to learn how to be a better, happier person yourself?

How does that work? I'm not chewing on him, I've simply retreated. I still manage to do decent things, as you put it. I'm baking cookies for him to take camping this weekend, and had plans for that before reading these posts. I had done this throughout our M, yet it still flat-lined because my lovebank was overdrawn. How does doing something someone suggests for my H make me a better, happier person?

You are in pain. You want to make sure that H pays for it and are willing to do anything that might give him the slightest relief. You defend blindly against treating H with humanity.

Can you be specific? Again, I'm not mean, I just want to get away. I'm just trying to breathe myself. Whether I think it's his doing or my doing, I at least need to get my feet on solid ground. How I am making him pay for it?

And, again, the simple question: why are you in such pain?

Can you not even label the pain, is it that hard to face? I understand if it is. I've been there. But nothing, including running from H, will get you where you want to be until you confront it.

This is not a simple question. I wouldn't say that I am in pain except for what he has done to me. Are you looking for me to say that I'm in pain because I stumbled across his secret EA with his college sweetheart? That it hurt to read the words he was exchanging with her? That it hurt when I confronted him and he lied about it, until I handed him a printout? That the thing that hurt worst of all is when he told me it was no big deal, because she lived two states away and it hadn't gotten physical, and that I was being unreasonable? Do you want me to say that I'm in pain because that incident and a half-dozen like it give me reason to not trust my H, and I don't know how to build a marriage w/o trust? I don't know what pain you're looking for me to admit to.

You SAY you want to know what TO DO and you do not want to go into detail about the exact nature of your interactions. That would have helped us advise.

Dredging up the past is counter to SBT. We've done MC for years, and I'm personally just tired of revisiting it. I've been trying to give you IRL play-by-plays and looking for feedback. What is it that you would like to know that you feel that I'm not telling you that you feel would help the current sitch?

In the interactions you do describe, I must say I find your behavior as unproductive as his is, and this is based on Your words here, not his. So I hope you'll take that in.

And note, almost every suggested course of action is rejected by you. "Too hard" or you are just not there yet or there's some reason you won't or can't.

I am not sure if you have taken ANY of the advice about what to DO.

Have you? I'm curious. What do you make of that?

First, if I play out something then post the interaction, I can't go back and "redo" it, so any advice I get has to be something that I apply going forward for "the next time." In that case, there won't be any immediate action. I've gotten advice on books to read, which I either have done or at least ordered the book and I'm waiting. I had already looked into the EE conference before OT responded (someone else already had.) I had already looked at the calendar and talked with H last night about going. I planned to order tickets today.

The only things I feel like I haven't received well are comments that involve engaging with H in some fluffy manner, and I can't pull that off without it coming across completely forced, because that's what it would be. What other advice have I been given that I'm not following?

[Crazyville]

In his world, he has his own scorecard and you are Not ahead. In his world, he's trying not to hurt you, but you seem angry at him often, and you seem to set him up for failure. You disrespect him and it shines/shows clearly that you feel little love for him (love that you are in touch with at least.)

How do you think HE feels? I mean have you really tried to empathize with him?

His scorecard does say that I'm ahead. He feels remorse, right now. He realizes what he did wrong. But he also forgives himself very easily (I wish I had that talent.) Except then he just does the same thing again. Why are we talking about him again, if my focus should be on me?

The more you blame him and hold yourself harmless, the more powerLESS you are.

Do you see that?

Only by owning your issues (such as, hypothetically, being critical and judgemental) are you empowered to DO anything.

Otherwise it's all about getting HIM to change--and you cannot do that,

I mentioned in a very short post that my micro instructor might be the best thing for my M. I didn't elaborate, perhaps I should have. I can see myself in him, at least things that my H has had a hard time putting into words. I'm find the same difficulty putting it into words myself. But my point is, I came up with that. I noticed. I am focusing on my issues, even when no one is prodding me. I'm tempted to drop the class, but I've already decided that the lesson he teaches unintentionally about my role in my R will be well worth it, even if I flunk the subject matter. The thing is, I belong to another board that I can bash my H all day long if I want, and everyone there will tell me what a jerk he is, but I haven't even logged on there in months because that doesn't accomplish anything. The easiest way for me to focus on me, is to not talk about him here, and not engage with him more than necessary in order to avoid conflict that I might blame on him.

But there are kids and so I listened and I worked on forgiving and letting go of the past b/c at some point it's like the vows say

"from this day forward" and letting go is essential.

It's never easy to repair damaged r's, but forgiveness is mandatory in ALL lasting marriages. Take that in...

But forgiveness is a learned skill. And it's a gift we give ourselves. Do you accept that?

I get that forgiveness is for the forgiver, not the forgiven. But forgiveness doesn't make it not hurt. And forgiveness doesn't change what you now know about the person. I read a quote once that said, "Sure, I'm good enough to forgive you, I'm just not stupid enough to trust you again." This is coarse, but I get the point, especially when the person has done nothing to change the behavior that caused it. This is the "mushrooms" in our marriage. H doesn't like M. I know that about him. I don't even have to "forgive" him, since there's nothing to forgive, but it changes our interactions (eg. We don't share dishes that contain mushrooms.) I believe knowledge, not lack of forgiveness, is what redefines a relationship. Just like now I KNOW that he still has significant feelings for his college sweetheart.

Finally, how does he get along with your sons? How do you think they feel about him?

They seem to enjoy his company since they want both of you at things. So, that means something, right?

Of course S loves him. That's not a good barometer. Even kids that are getting beat by a parent still love them. Just like the fact that he gripes about H once in a while isn't grounds to prove he's a bad father. Again, if the focus should be on me, why is this a topic of discussion?

[oldtimer]

CV,

The pain in you is old. You don't get to where you are in how you see the world and how you interact with others because H had an EA, or several. You don't live the life with H that you've led to get you to this point in your M without the old stuff.

So, what is it? What hurt you so much when you were young?

[Crazyville]

Sorry, that was supposed to be H doesn't like MUSHROOMS.

[Crazyville]

I don't know. If I had to throw something out, I would say my parents were critical. But see, now you're going against the principles of SBT. I've peeled this onion so many times with other counselors, it's almost nauseating at this point. Maybe this is just something that needs to be side-barred until after the EE conference. You're asking me to go against the principles of SBT, and it's taken me a long time to get here. I don't want to go back.