When it's a one-way street...part 3

[~ kd ~]

One thing women really have a hard time understanding is that men really are dumb as stumps when it comes to women.

BTW, I don't think it's that hard for women to understand at all.

lol... true... true... although I can imagine how frustrating that is for women...

I do think you are doing a good job focusing on the reading and especially the topics. You are getting good support for where you are, right now. Which is why I had earlier said that I didn't feel you might be ready for any SBT. I just wanted to add some thoughts and re-emphasise that above.

As much as I appreciate that you are working things out, one more thing I would like you to think about.

How long do you want to take a break? A month? Would that be a fair amount of time for you to find your centre, again?

I don't mean to pressure, but one thing people in resistance really become good at... resistance... in the form of procrastination...

I just need a few days... a couple weeks... a few months...

Make a commitment to how long you will be in "pause and reflect mode". It doesn't have to be set in stone and you can have an extension if you need it. It is commitment that many people, when facing life changes and challenges, that people sometimes have trouble with. Make a choice and committing to those choices. Because sometimes... if we wait long enough... the problem will go away, having solved itself... ie. You wake up one morning and your H is gone and moved on with someone else.

[Accuray]

Is it possible that she's still thinking that you "owe" her? That your reconciliation wasn't really a clean slate but time for you to pay her back?

I really don't think so. I think at this point she feels more guilty than slighted if that makes sense.

I'm not suggesting that she's planning on always being that way, but maybe she's just still dealing with her stuff.

I wish that were the case, MC and W both say that she's accepted her stuff and isn't going to deal with it. I don't think she's capable of more intimacy given all her stuff. I thought she was because I saw more intimacy in her affair, but MC says she did that because she knew she wouldn't have to maintain it.

BTW, were you always the pursuer or are you just being that now? That's sort of described in the book, that the pursuer becomes the distancer when they leave or D, and then the roles reverse but just temporarily. If she was the original pursuer, it actually sounds like she's doing exactly what she's supposed to be. See if that rings true with you when you get to the chapter.

As with many relationship books, it's not that simple. When we were dating, I was clearly the pursuer. At some point in our marriage, I became the emotional distancer, but the dynamic is better described as the pursuer who has given up versus the distancer who is uncomfortable with intimacy.

This is touched on in SSM where the "rejected" sexual pursuer withdraws emotionally. I was 100% convinced that W didn't love me, had never loved me, and was either completely non-sexual or possibly gay. That's how I felt when things were at their worst and I was in distancing mode. I was not distancing because I felt pursued and didn't want the intimacy. It was more like I wanted the intimacy, knew I couldn't have it, and didn't want to get sucked into continued frustration so gave up. From my perspective, that's a different kind of distancing because I wasn't interested in "the dance", I didn't want to be pursued.

The scary thing is that I feel I'm headed back there, I'm on the road to give up again.

In my mind, I feel like I need to go down a path to create a sitch for H like you have with your W.

This was interesting -- what does this mean? What sitch have I created for my W from your perspective?

Accuray

[Crazyville]

Originally Posted By: Crazyville
In my mind, I feel like I need to go down a path to create a sitch for H like you have with your W.

This was interesting -- what does this mean? What sitch have I created for my W from your perspective?

I just meant that based on what I'm reading in this book, I need to create a sitch for my H like your W has created for you. That's why I went on to say that's it's completely one-sided and I can't imagine H doing it indefinitely. And you've confirmed that in your statement with concerns that you're going back there - to the land of giving up.

I'm going to hop over to your thread so I can see what's up. I'm probably talking a month behind everyone else.

[Crazyville]

KD, I'm going to think about a time, but if we haven't even gotten out of this continuous conflict stage, the time goal is sort of pointless. Probably a month after the conflict starts showing noticeable improvement. I've checked the dates for the EE conference - the next is Apr 26. I've checked the calendar and I think I'm going to do it. It will be a nice vacation if nothing else. I wish it was at a beach.

So I've read the chapters on fight triggers and defensiveness. Again, the author could have inserted our names into almost all of the scenarios. It's so humbling. It's all so embarrassingly obvious when someone spells it all out like that. Even moreso when we keep doing it even after we know what we're doing.

So, we had a defensive exchange this morning (H attacking, me defending.) I didn't realize it until afterward, when I thought about it. I was still in bed, so maybe I just wasn't awake enough. Even thinking about it, though, I'm not sure how it could have been handled any better. Here's the convo:

(H comes to my BR, I'm still in bed....)
H: If I get S to hustle, I can drop him off at school this morning (it's usually something I do.)
W: That's alright, I need to get up anyway. Paul is coming this morning to look at the furnace.
H: You were going to tell me when he was coming
W: I did tell you. I told you yesterday that if he couldn't make it then, he would be coming today.
H: Well you didn't give me a specific time
W: I don't have a specific time
H: Well I have a meeting at 8:00 so I don't know if I can be here. I can still drop off S if I hurry.
W: Get to your meeting, it's no big deal, I'll drop him off.

How could this have been handled differently? I have a hard time distinguishing the difference between defensiveness and just sharing information. At least I didn't attack back, even though it was just below the surface, like if he was so concerned about what went on with the furnace, then perhaps he could have taken responsibility for it himself, etc. etc. I mean the thing is broken. It's not like I'm wanting to redecorate it.

Anyway, I definitely felt attacked. I believe I went defensive. What could I have done differently?

[2thepoint]

So, we had a defensive exchange this morning (H attacking, me defending.) I didn't realize it until afterward, when I thought about it. I was still in bed, so maybe I just wasn't awake enough. Even thinking about it, though, I'm not sure how it could have been handled any better. Here's the convo:

(H comes to my BR, I'm still in bed....)
H: If I get S to hustle, I can drop him off at school this morning (it's usually something I do.)
W: That's alright, I need to get up anyway. Paul is coming this morning to look at the furnace.
H: You were going to tell me when he was coming
W: I did tell you. I told you yesterday that if he couldn't make it then, he would be coming today.
H: Well you didn't give me a specific time
W: I don't have a specific time
H: Well I have a meeting at 8:00 so I don't know if I can be here. I can still drop off S if I hurry.
W: Get to your meeting, it's no big deal, I'll drop him off.

How could this have been handled differently? I have a hard time distinguishing the difference between defensiveness and just sharing information. At least I didn't attack back, even though it was just below the surface, like if he was so concerned about what went on with the furnace, then perhaps he could have taken responsibility for it himself, etc. etc. I mean the thing is broken. It's not like I'm wanting to redecorate it.

Anyway, I definitely felt attacked. I believe I went defensive. What could I have done differently?

I think it is what was said or done yesterday that triggered what occurred this morning. So not so much what you could have done differently today in the heat of the moment but what could you have done yesterday to head off a potential conflict.

Think about how your H appears to need plenty of prep time. BTW, this has come up in prior posts here so think about that. He seems to need clear and precise information in order for him to process properly.

Also, you normally take son to school but here your H is saying he would. So, why not let him do it and thank him for it. Then he feels good about doing something that helped you and you have more time to prepare for the furnace repairman AND you might have also dampened some of the conflict that began to surface in the interaction.

Just some things to consider, CV.

[Crazyville]

Okay, so Monday's conversation went like this.

W: H, the main floor furnace it not working. Here's what I know (went through details, thermostat is working, fan is blowing, other furnace is working fine, gas is flowing, no flame, circuit breaker not flipped, etc.) I've called Paul to see if he can come out. I told him it's not an emergency since we have zoned heating and it hasn't been that cold. He said he'll try to make it tomorrow (Tuesday) but he has something going on so he might not be able to make it until Wednesday morning. I also asked him to look at the hot water heater while he's here.
H: Okay, well I'd like to be here when he's here, so will you let me know when he gets here?
W: Sure.

Tuesday, H asked if he had made it here and I said he hadn't.

FYI: Paul is my uncle. He works in heating and cooling. H and he had a conversation at Christmas about his replacing our hot water heater. Paul is not some sort of suspicious deviant or threat.

In regards to H dropping off son, I think I take issue with the drama that H seems to always pad with his offers. He could have just offered to take son to school. But he has to pad it with his herculean effort. "If I get S to hustle..." = ride S to hurry, engage with him in unpleasant conflict, or "I have a meeting, but I might still be able to drop him off if I hurry" = I'm willing to endanger my job, and it will take significant effort, but I'll do it.

I can't begin to value his effort nearly as much as he does. I feel like I'm setting myself up for an attack, because if I agree to let him, I don't believe I will be able to reciprocate at the level he will expect me to. And he WILL expect me to.

[~ kd ~]

Has your H ever told you that he resents you for letting him do something that he's offered to do?

It also appears that you and your H may have different viewpoints on how to raise your S. This is normal. Why is that a problem?

[~ kd ~]

Oh, and also...

While you may feel your H is inconvenienced, even though he offered...

he also goes on to ask for your help... asking you to support him... engaging you in a way that connects the two of you... he just doesn't happen to be asking you in a way that you are receptive to... and then you go into resistance as though it's inconvenient for you...

Do you see the pattern? How else does that show up in your life?

[Accuray]

I read into that that he said he'd like to be there when Paul comes, and you said you'd tell him when Paul gets there.

Your morning conversation implied that you'd talked to Paul about coming in the morning, but had not updated H. I read nothing more into that than a misunderstanding. You had actually not talked to Paul, but just assumed he was coming in the morning based on the conversation you did have. That would have been one thing to clear up right away -- "H, I haven't spoken to Paul again. I assume he's coming this morning. I know you said you wanted to be here, but I don't know what time he's coming. I can give you his number if you want to call him."

WRT the drama surrounding his dropoff request, my H would read things into my offers in the same way. My IC told me that is "crazymaking" -- you're attaching an interpretation to his words that may not be there at all. He could be talking while he was thinking versus trying to demonstrate the effort he would have to make.

The "assume the best intentions" strategy would suggest you should be grateful for the offer and accept it as such versus reading in sinister motives.

If H then later comes looking for payback, post about that. You assume he will, and maybe for good reason, but if you want help with your own communication dynamics, for now let's assume goodwill and let H prove otherwise, and then share that.

If you did let H take S to school and told him you appreciate it, that would be a deposit in his love tank. He would feel like a good provider, he would feel like a good husband. He would feel like a partner in S's care. That good feeling might foster a positive cycle to start spinning where he would do something else nice in anticipation of a positive or supportive response.

It's when a negative response comes when a positive one was expected that you're going to see him start keeping score and expecting reciprocity.

WRT putting H in the same situation my W put me in, I don't suggest it. All W had to do was tell me that she wasn't happy in the marriage and I would have taken action. The affair and divorce request were completely unnecessary if she wanted to see change. She said nothing and made no complaint until she said she wanted a divorce.

Accuray

[Crazyville]

Has your H ever told you that he resents you for letting him do something that he's offered to do?

Was this supposed to be resents me for NOT letting him?

It also appears that you and your H may have different viewpoints on how to raise your S. This is normal. Why is that a problem?

We do pretty well, actually. Probably the one area in life we don't argue about. We will occasionally have a discussion, but it's the only time I feel like we're on the same team and no one is attacking or defensive. The only time issues come up is when H fails on what he committed to do (eg. misses a boy scout meeting)

he also goes on to ask for your help... asking you to support him... engaging you in a way that connects the two of you... he just doesn't happen to be asking you in a way that you are receptive to... and then you go into resistance as though it's inconvenient for you...

What did he ask my help with? What support? He only asked me to call him when Paul came, which I agreed to and then did this a.m. when he showed. I don't see the pattern. Sorry, I'm not following.

You had actually not talked to Paul, but just assumed he was coming in the morning based on the conversation you did have. That would have been one thing to clear up right away. "H, I haven't spoken to Paul again. I assume he's coming this morning. I know you said you wanted to be here, but I don't know what time he's coming. I can give you his number if you want to call him."

In my first convo with H, I did tell him that Paul would optionally come Wed morning. I didn't talk to him again to change anything. To your response, this still sounds defensive to me. It sounds like the same thing I said only using more words.

The "assume the best intentions" strategy would suggest you should be grateful for the offer and accept it as such versus reading in sinister motives.

Even if I look at his motives as being completely well-intentioned, his presentation just exhausts me. Even if he's just thinking outloud, the effort it seems it will take for him to do it just makes me want to say no (that's not even considering whether he'll be successful at doing it.) It's like me offering to buy you a cup of coffee, then explaining that I'll have to forgo my OWN cup of coffee, and go out and dig through the car to come up with the change, probably be late for work and have to skip lunch because of it, and ... or you could just pay 99cents yourself. Wouldn't you just say, "No, thanks, really!"? Do you remember the character Cliff Claven on Cheers? He was just annoying in that sort of way, regardless of his "intentions."

If you did let H take S to school and told him you appreciate it, that would be a deposit in his love tank. He would feel like a good provider, he would feel like a good husband. He would feel like a partner in S's care. That good feeling might foster a positive cycle to start spinning where he would do something else nice in anticipation of a positive or supportive response.
It's when a negative response comes when a positive one was expected that you're going to see him start keeping score and expecting reciprocity.

This is VERY interesting to me. I will chew on this. My reaction to this is, fine, so I give him a positive response, but then he'll keep doing it "because it worked," when it's not what I want him to do in the first place. I don't want to encourage something that I don't want by responding positively.

Funny story, I learned this years ago with our previous dog. She wasn't a barker. But after much trial and error, we taught her how to "speak" for a treat! We were so proud! Until she started speaking for treats when SHE wanted to, rather than when she was prompted. Needless to say, our current dog does NOT know the speak command.

WRT putting H in the same situation my W put me in, I don't suggest it. All W had to do was tell me that she wasn't happy in the marriage and I would have taken action.

I was just responding to the instruction in the book regarding a distancer needing to be cut off. I don't think it's the same for your sitch.