"This desperation is also generated by self-deception -- the expectation that the distancer can get more out of a relationship than he puts into it." I believe he's at that stage, where he's still trying to hold on to a self-beneficial, non-reciprocal relationship.
I believe my W is there too, she expects to get more from the relationship than she puts into it. When I take my contribution down to her level she complains and gets uncomfortable. For instance, yesterday she complained that I didn't reach out to her at all during the day. She seems to keep score on that. At the same time, she did nothing to reach out to me.
One thing I don't understand about your sitch is how you've been acting with H day to day. I know you've been venting here, but I can't see what's actually going on in your home. Are you detached and have you been distancing as suggested by the book already, or is that something you're considering starting to do now? Have you still been pursuing H or trying to cater to him, or have you been actively avoiding him?
I will be very interested in what you decide to do with the recommendations in the Solo Partner and how it works out for you. With my W, I firmly believe that if I distance she will get very upset and ultimately leave versus deciding to "do the work" or even see the path of doing the work as a way to make things better. I think she's more likely to run than fight.
Keep me updated on what you decide to do with the info in the book.
Accuray
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
For instance, yesterday she complained that I didn't reach out to her at all during the day. She seems to keep score on that. At the same time, she did nothing to reach out to me.
Is it possible that she's still thinking that you "owe" her? That your reconciliation wasn't really a clean slate but time for you to pay her back? I'm not suggesting that she's planning on always being that way, but maybe she's just still dealing with her stuff. BTW, were you always the pursuer or are you just being that now? That's sort of described in the book, that the pursuer becomes the distancer when they leave or D, and then the roles reverse but just temporarily. If she was the original pursuer, it actually sounds like she's doing exactly what she's supposed to be. See if that rings true with you when you get to the chapter.
I can look back to the very beginning of our marriage and see the very self-centered behaviors in my H even then, a the lack of reciprocity for years. Oldtimer was telling me to give up on the tit-for-tat, but honestly, that's what got me here in the first place. I should have insisted upon it from the very beginning. Instead, I did the pursuer dance until I was just totally burned out. I taught him how to treat me, I know, in that regard anyway. Probably the others ways too.
Some of what the book describes for the changes in the pursuer will be easy, but others will be very hard for me in my sitch, because I'm trying to keep things as stress-free as possible for S. Plus, it's the exact opposite of what I would want to teach S to expect from his future W. How do I manage a family vacation for S? He clearly wants us both with him. I said I understand why W's divorce their H's (or at least why pursuers D their distancers.) Then at least their actions match their sitch. Here's the list I pulled from the chapter: - Do not initiate conversation - Do not give advice, even if asked - Do not seek emotional support - Abstain from trying to improve your partner in any way - Do not look to him as someone to talk to - Don't baby him - Do not do anything for him (cook, laundry, etc.) - Do not intervene with family/friends - Do not initiate expressions of affection (don't hug or kiss or say "I love you." - Do not have sex if you don't want to - Do not do things with him - Do not plan around his schedule - Be away from home if he's there - Do things w/friends or family by yourself - all this with the goal to DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING *** Keeping in mind that this is for benefit of the pursuer, not as punishment to the distancer. (It really, REALLY strikes me as odd that this is what I need to do to attract my partner.)
Some positive actions instead are: - Fill your life in new ways - Seek other people that will meet your emotional needs - Work at meeting new people - Remember what you used to enjoy - Develop emotional autonomy - Change your expectations
I think these last steps sound like what you do when you D. It also sounds like GAL, when you've been left. I don't know yet how that can be done without risking an EA/PA, though the book states clearly not to go there. And not to redirect your needs to your children (which I completely agree!) I'll have to work on that. Ideas would be appreciated.
Quote:
One thing I don't understand about your sitch is how you've been acting with H day to day. I know you've been venting here, but I can't see what's actually going on in your home. Are you detached and have you been distancing as suggested by the book already, or is that something you're considering starting to do now? Have you still been pursuing H or trying to cater to him, or have you been actively avoiding him?
For quite some time, I've been doing the dance described in the book. I would apply some of these points, H would not like it and make promises to change, I would reengage, and 3 days later we'd be right back to where we started. I don't do well not trying to change him, though I was really trying very hard to avoid doing that in regards to the marriage/friendship article. I could just see it coming. I'm not inviting to him, because I don't feel that way. I'm courteous because that's just who I am. We don't yell at each other or make sarcastic comments as we walk by. There is rarely any conversation that would be considered intimate, and that's maybe only level 2. Basically just facts (furnace isn't working, S has boyscouts, etc.) My BFF actually told me that if she didn't know the intimate details of our relationship, that she wouldn't know we even had problems.
In my mind, I feel like I need to go down a path to create a sitch for H like you have with your W. At the same time, it's completely one-sided for you and obviously not something you're going to continue forever. Well how long is "not forever?" How long do I do the distancer dance before I know H has really gotten it? That aspect of my sitch is what makes me relate so well with what Crimson's W is probably going through.
... others will be very hard for me in my sitch, because I'm trying to keep things as stress-free as possible for S. Plus, it's the exact opposite of what I would want to teach S to expect from his future W. ...
The above in bold I find interesting.
You want your son to learn about what you feel he should seek in a wife, in a non-functional M...
Your fear about leaving the M seems completely revolving around your S.
Your S will grow up in an environment where he learns that spouses are at best room-mate friendly. And at worst, that your S should seek to be in a unhappy M, only to satiate his children.
How is he going to learn about the behaviours of a healthy M and the behaviours of a committed and loving W? What lessons will he learn about being a healthy, committed H?
If I think back on my own parents' marriage, that's about all I learned from them, too -- how to be roommate friendly. I couldn't tell you back then what their M pros and cons were. I couldn't tell you either one's LL, pet peeves, or who was right or wrong in a sitch. I didn't learn how to have sex, or how to date, or even particularly how to fight because you're not supposed to do that in front of kids. The rest of it I figured out on my own, either because it's what I personally wanted or from other relationship experiences. He's not going to learn the marriage lesson any better if his father and I are divorced. If we can't work things out when we both claim we want to, it will be a very conflictual divorce as well and there will be no caring left. It may or may not be the right decision for him, and we won't know until way down the line, but it is what I believe to be best. The years we spent in counseling with/for/because of my skids is not someplace I care to go if I can help it.
I understand. It is difficult to teach our children anything different than we were taught or know ourselves.
Sometimes, life is about experimenting.
What makes me feel stuck in how to provide you with SBT solutions for your relationship with your H is that I feel that anything that is offered will be responded to with a reason for why you cannot or will not do it.
I was just going through some information which again stressed how important it is both to encourage good behaviours (as opposed to punishing bad behaviours) as well as how important it is to give, without the expectations of receiving.
I completely understand how it feels when we get to a point where we just feel like we've been giving and giving and giving and have received nothing in return.
One thing that I would like to put out there is, your H probably has NO idea how to give you what you need. And I understand that you are waffling on not wanting anything from him.
What would life be like if your H gave you exactly what you needed in a way that you wanted it? What is it that you fear, that you might actually get this from your H?
One thing women really have a hard time understanding is that men really are dumb as stumps when it comes to women. We have no idea that we need to be present for them all the time (whenever they need us to be present for them).
So I understand your desire to stay with your H until your S leaves and to make things as emotionally safe and stable for your S.
What I do want to leave you with for the moment is:
Once you leave your H, how do you intend to get what you want from any other man? Do you expect it to magically be there?
One resistance statement to the comment above that people use is, "Well, I will be happy to live my life, alone." I would encourage you to accept that even if you claim and really believe that you may be happy to be alone, the reality is more likely to be that you will eventually have some man (or men) who begin to approach you and court you...
Will you beat them off with sticks?
Do you expect that the romance of the initial dating and honeymoon phase will last forever?
What would prevent you from using your H as an opportunity to practice for these future Rs on how to create a loving and mutually beneficial relationship?
Just to add to the above about men being dumb about women...
Men are pretty simple. For the most part, all we need to know is that our spouses are happy. That's it.
If our spouses aren't happy, we aren't happy. Eventually, if this pattern continues, we begin to feel incapable of making our wives happy... and then we stop trying...
KD, I don't mean to come across as rejecting everything. I love the feedback on my current actions, and suggestions on what I can do to not make things worse. I just know my current limitations. Physical therapy is important after an operation, but no one would expect the patient to start while the operation is still being performed. I just need a few minutes (days, weeks, months, IDK...) where I can rest from this and breathe. I can spend that whole time focusing on myself, reading, posting, etc. Even the book I'm reading right now (Sole Partner) talks a lot about what needs to be done to restore, but its focus is not that. So it's not that I'm not receptive to listening to it, I'm just not up to doing it yet. I'll file it in my head for later. The chapter I was just reading is on emotional triggers and how not to respond. That is PERFECT for me right now. It gives me a tool to shut down these conflicts. The next chapter is on defensiveness, which I'm sure I could also benefit from. And I've already got my next book ordered. This effort, working, and going to school have got my brain on overload already.
After I've had some time, perhaps then I will at least be able to imagine what a happy marriage with my H would look like, or with anybody. And with that image, I might be able to put some effort toward making it good, as opposed to just "not bad," -- later. I know it took Sandi a long time to motivate, even after she shut down her EA.
Meanwhile, does anyone have information on the conference I've heard about, maybe referred to as EE? I read a reference to it but didn't make a note and now I can't find it. It's a personal thing, not a couples/marriage thing. I thought I might like to look into that.
KD, I don't mean to come across as rejecting everything. I love the feedback on my current actions, and suggestions on what I can do to not make things worse. I just know my current limitations. Physical therapy is important after an operation, but no one would expect the patient to start while the operation is still being performed. I just need a few minutes (days, weeks, months, IDK...) where I can rest from this and breathe. I can spend that whole time focusing on myself, reading, posting, etc. Even the book I'm reading right now (Sole Partner) talks a lot about what needs to be done to restore, but its focus is not that. So it's not that I'm not receptive to listening to it, I'm just not up to doing it yet. I'll file it in my head for later. The chapter I was just reading is on emotional triggers and how not to respond. That is PERFECT for me right now. It gives me a tool to shut down these conflicts. The next chapter is on defensiveness, which I'm sure I could also benefit from. And I've already got my next book ordered. This effort, working, and going to school have got my brain on overload already.
After I've had some time, perhaps then I will at least be able to imagine what a happy marriage with my H would look like, or with anybody. And with that image, I might be able to put some effort toward making it good, as opposed to just "not bad," -- later. I know it took Sandi a long time to motivate, even after she shut down her EA.
Meanwhile, does anyone have information on the conference I've heard about, maybe referred to as EE? I read a reference to it but didn't make a note and now I can't find it. It's a personal thing, not a couples/marriage thing. I thought I might like to look into that.
Two things, CV.
First another reading assignment for you. A novel that is an easy read called "A Year by the Sea - Thoughts of an Unfinished Woman" by Joan Anderson. Check it out, I think you'll enjoy it. And with all this reading that you are doing, you won't have time to worry about your sitch!
Second, EE stands for Essential Experience. Google "Essential Experience Philadelphia" and the first item is their website. I've not attended the seminar/experience but have heard it is life changing.
There is another program that when/if the time is right, you and your H may want to participate in. It is called Retrouville. It is a couples retreat and marriage restoration program. You can google that as well.
Me51 W53 S17 S14 M22 T25 Bomb-9/11; A-11/11; I move out 11/11
It's easy to find our bottom, it is our top that requires cultivation.
Every rough spot adds to our emotional constitution. -Barney Fife
