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#2223434 - 02/19/12 06:18 PM Re: Parenting with an MLCer? [Re: Kimmerz]
job Offline
Member

Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 19083
Loc: Maryland
Kimmerz,
It's one day at a time, one episode at a time. You are expecting him to be rational and see where you are coming from...not going to happen for a very long time, if ever. Well, he set you up a bit...8 p.m.? If you don't recall setting the time at 8, then most likely it was never agreed upon. They like to play w/our heads and the PA person will do that. It's his way of getting you to back down and feel guilty.

Kimmerz, you will need to set your boundaries for your children and stick to them. If you don't, he will always us the PA trump card and you will be the one always feel guilty for sticking to your guns.

The PA folks are very frustrating to deal with.

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#2223529 - 02/20/12 11:00 AM Re: Parenting with an MLCer? [Re: job]
Kimmerz Offline
Member

Registered: 09/26/11
Posts: 839
Loc: West Coast
I can't sleep. tend to wake up around 1 - 2 a.m. most nights feeling frustrated, and angry at xh.

Today something dawned on me. My emotions are like a roller coaster when it comes to him. I feel as irrational as he acts. One minute Im doing well, acceptant of things, and my feelings towards him are still caring feelings, but understand I will always do this from a distance from here on out.

Then he will do or say something that just sets me off into orbit and Im just nothing but a big ball of anger and frustration. I had an insight to something today.

Yes Snodderly, I still do have expectations of him. As low as they've become over the last year, I still have them. I become angry and frustrated because Im still VERY hurt over his choices, and how he acts. What I've expected is a little decency, respect, and courtesy from him. People are probably more respectful to their neighbors or people they pass on the street. But not with him.

What Im really wanting and needing is an apology from him, but I will never get it. It didn't dawn on me till lately just how much a true apology means and how important it is.

I've been so confused with myself as to why Im finally getting a little cooperation from him, yet Im finding the nicer he is the more angry I get. I realized that I feel like a HUGE factore was just jumped over and completely swept under the carpet, and not dealt with...and it has. Classic PA. He's now going to act like everything is ok and cool, but gee we forgot something! An apology and maybe an offical way to make ammends!

I will never learn...at least with him. See I treat others as I wish to be treated. Classic PA abuse, I always apolize to him, always. What did I do last week? In an email to him I told him that given the divorce was final anyday I was recalling the last 20 years. I said that I was truly sorry for hurt and heartbreak I caused him.

It dawned on me that even though I knew I would never get it, I had a little glimmer of hope that he would return the apology and make a few acknowleldgments. Nope. Im still looking for emotional availability from him.

As frustrating and crazy making as this is, it really is the best thing I need. It's just more proof that he is NOT what he used to be or who I thought he ever was. Even the most decent respect and decency you could show your neighbor, he can't even do with me. He's toyed with me enough, possibly feels I've earned the priveledge of speaking to him, and therefore will resume business as usual with me. That's how he always was before in our marriage. That's how he's treated other people in his life. That's how he treated his bar partons at work.

Unreal!
_________________________
M=42 XH=44
M=18 T=21
D14 D11
Divorced 4/2012
XH marries OW 6/2014.

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#2223537 - 02/20/12 01:19 PM Re: Parenting with an MLCer? [Re: Kimmerz]
job Offline
Member

Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 19083
Loc: Maryland
Kimmerz,
I could have written your posting. I had thought about the apology and "let's be friends" issues for years and I came to the realization that my xh doesn't have one darn clue just how much he hurt me over the years, but more importantly when he walked out. Oh, yeah, I got a half @ss apology 5 years after he left for driving me crazy during the marriage, but not one apology for walking out and acting like a total @ss. And, in the same email, wanting to be friends, because he has other divorced friends that are friends w/their exes. So, you can see, you are not alone...their empathy chips are completely destroyed.

You may never get what we would consider an apology. You might get a half @ss one down the road, but it will never be sincere. They can't/don't know how to give a sincere apology because they never learned that there are times when THEY are at fault for what transpires. Your xh will want to sweep everything under the rug and pretend that things didn't happen and you can be the best buds ever. It doesn't happen that way because you know what happened and would never do what he did to you to others.

I thought you might still have expectations of him. Kimmerz, this is where you need to detach a bit more. I realize that you have children and will need to deal w/him, but you are going to have to think of him as a stranger. The expectations are going to drive you nuts because he can't/won't be the person that you expect him to be. We all learned at an early age to respect others and treat others as you would want to be treated. Unfortunately, the PA's were were mistreated so terribly that they used this "learned" behavior to help them get through life. We, unfortanately, are the ones that get the brunt of their behavior now.

Once I educated myself on PA behavior, I stopped feeling guilty and apologizing for everything that didn't suit my xh. You will to learn that you are not obligated to make him feel better about your decisions if they are fair. Before apologizing, think about what you've said or done and if your actions are fair and what you would expect from others towards you, then don't apologize. The PA personalities know all of the tricks to work each and every situation to their advantage. You now will need to learn how to side step their behavior. Continue reading about PA behavior...the more you learn, the better prepared you will be when it comes to dealing w/him.

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#2223539 - 02/20/12 01:31 PM Re: Parenting with an MLCer? [Re: job]
job Offline
Member

Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 19083
Loc: Maryland
Kimmerz,
I found this on another website and thought this might help you to better understand what the PA feels towards us.

"The passive aggressive objectifies the object of their desire. You are to be used as a means to an end. Your only value is to feed his/her own emotional needs. You are not seen as a person with feelings and needs but as an extension of him/her. They care for you the way they care for a favorite chair. You are there for their comfort and pleasure and are of use as long as you fill their needs."

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#2223596 - 02/20/12 06:23 PM Re: Parenting with an MLCer? [Re: job]
sleeper Offline
Member

Registered: 12/12/07
Posts: 1843
Loc: The Great State of Confusion
Snodderly,

Something clicked while I read the quote you posted. You are not just "the chair" you are intended by them to be the PERFECT chair. As when you hear someone say, That is the perfect chair for my sitting room!"

I believe ths is why we are not allowed to make mistakes, be human. Whenever I would state why something didn't go as expected by her she would respond, "That's just an excuse." There was never an acceptable explanation. Perfect chairs dontbmake mstakes.

They, on the other hand can do no wrong, therefore no appology will be made by them. Whenever I would pin her down on her failings she would respond angrily,"Now s not the time to discuss this" and of course the time never came to do so or would stare blankly at me and walk away not even responding to what I had said.

If we look back I believe we will find they never were people who sppologized for their failures/actions so why would we expect them to appologize now?
_________________________
"Fear is the mind-killer" Muad'Dib
Me 53, XW 44, DD 14, DS 12
Bomb and OM 12/15/06
Separated 01/02/07
Divorced 05/13/08
X married OM(OMH) 08/2009
Married 06/09/13

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#2223615 - 02/20/12 07:25 PM Re: Parenting with an MLCer? [Re: sleeper]
job Offline
Member

Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 19083
Loc: Maryland
Sleeper,
I agree w/you 100%. In all of the years that I knew my xh, I never once heard the words "I'm sorry". He was the most skilled excuse maker I have ever met...He never owned up to his mistakes, it was always the fault of others.

If they did apologize, it would not be a sincere apology because they have no "true human" feelings. They don't feel empathy for anyone and once they tire of you or should I say what they can get out of you, then they move on to their next target. That's the reason they can move on and not look back. They considered us a posession and when the tire of possessions, what do they do w/them? Throw them away or put them in the back of the closet and never take them out again. What is so sad about all of this is that they will continue to repeat this pattern throughout life and truly will never be happy because they aren't looking within and seeking help for their behavior.

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#2223630 - 02/20/12 08:11 PM Re: Parenting with an MLCer? [Re: job]
Cadet Offline
Member

Registered: 11/24/09
Posts: 5255
Originally Posted By: snodderly
Sleeper,
If they did apologize, it would not be a sincere apology because they have no "true human" feelings. They don't feel empathy for anyone and once they tire of you or should I say what they can get out of you, then they move on to their next target. That's the reason they can move on and not look back. They considered us a posession and when the tire of possessions, what do they do w/them? Throw them away or put them in the back of the closet and never take them out again. What is so sad about all of this is that they will continue to repeat this pattern throughout life and truly will never be happy because they aren't looking within and seeking help for their behavior.


So would you consider him STUCK within his MLC?
Is that a normal occurence to get stuck?

Because it seems that Jim Conway believes most MLC'er complete their MLC.

No matter what I realize that we must keep living out life "as if" they are never coming back.

Thanks.
_________________________
Me-60, D28,S27

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#2223647 - 02/20/12 09:15 PM Re: Parenting with an MLCer? [Re: Cadet]
job Offline
Member

Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 19083
Loc: Maryland
Cadet,
Jim Conway speaks of people in mlc, and I as I recall, he did not specifically break down the various personalitis in his book, nor did his late wife address them in hers. During mlc, if an individual has a tendancy to have some traits of various personalities, they are stronger during this time. As to whether they are the ones that remain stuck forever, I do not know. However, I do know that there are many who do become stuck along the way and it may take a longer time for them to recover and complete their crisis. As to what will "unstick" them, I can't answer that one.

If the mlcer can overcome his/her crisis and the PA traits settle back down, maybe their apologies are more sincere, but many while in crisis would prefer to sweep things under the rug and hope that you will too. The half-hearted apologies are just that and they really do not express any emotions except anger.

However, where a "non-mlcer" person w/a PA personality, then yes, they have no "true feelings" for their target and their empathy chip is completely damaged. If they seek professional help, it takes years to change their behavior and then there is no guarantee that it will.

Most of the mlcers are conflict avoiders w/a mix of PA. As for my xh, he was a PA/conflict avoider and he's been in his crisis since 1997 and he's still going strong. I don't see any of the "old self" in him at all. He is still rocking just as if he were 18, despite some health issues.

Readers need to understand the mlc affects all types of personalities and all walks of life. There is no way that any of us can predict who will come out the other side w/their personalities in tact or those who remain stuck forever in their new personna. It's a wait and see and while doing so, each and every person has to find a way to continue living their lives to the best of their ability. Sure, you can leave the door ajar and hope for the best, but do not stop living your life. If he/she does return to the real world and wants to seek you out and attempt reconcillation, then that is the time that you, the lbs, will need to make some decisions about what you want or what is best for you and your family. Until that time, live your life to the fullest as if they are never coming back.

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#2223701 - 02/20/12 11:38 PM Re: Parenting with an MLCer? [Re: job]
WenikiTiki Offline
Member

Registered: 11/10/11
Posts: 1078
Loc: Hawaii
Reading and Heeding!

PS I love you all!
_________________________
Me 54 XH 55 Sons age 29 & 24 M:32 T:33
D final 9/12
Sold the house, Progress is being made!

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#2223719 - 02/21/12 12:51 AM Re: Parenting with an MLCer? [Re: WenikiTiki]
Kimmerz Offline
Member

Registered: 09/26/11
Posts: 839
Loc: West Coast
Hi everyone,
Snodderly I found that website too and read that exact same paragraph.I can't tell you how much I've felt like that during the marriage and of course during these past 9 months. See my xh is a pack rat of many things. He can't get rid of many things, and he always must aquire more, for whatever mood he's in at the time. He aquires things, usues them and when the newness wears off, he sets it aside, but won't ever get rid of it.

Well I guess you could say that's how I feel. I am now a collectible item to him now. I was able to meet and fullfill his needs just fine for some time, but then I was no longer able to. So he found a different model. Gosh I can't even try and think along those lines, to even grasp the PA logic. I appreciate you bringing that to my attention. Because it sure explains the few words he did speak to me in regards to OW a few months back. As heartbroken as I was, I actually was taken aback at the same time. As I stand back....I can now see how he still relates to me as an extension. I do have something he wants/needs, which are the children.

I did alot of thinking today and I have realized that I absolutely must become proactive in making myself happy and getting a new and fun life. I thought I wasn't doing well because I was too depressed, but it dawned on me it's not entirely that. It's the fact there is nothing in this town that interests me. I was trying to get Xh to consider moving to a bigger place years ago. He didn't want to. I need to move out of town, and get some distance to heal. Having this rubbed in my face and now that they're going public and I have to hear about it is just too much for me. I can detatch properly from afar, but not like this. Just establishing basic communication with him has completely rocked my world. I was doing so well up until we started speaking again.

See I now know I became completely too attatched to my xh. He was all I had left. He and my girls were my life. I had no life outside my family and work. I only have 2 family members, one 500 miles away I haven't seen in 12 years, the other is stage 4 dementia and really not there. My best friends I only see a few times a year, and the only family I really see are Xh's. Im still very much intouch with them, but it's still a reminder of what no longer is. It seems like everytime we're all together we're all going down memory lane with he and i being a big part of it.

I live in a small town and there is nothing really entertaining to do. No fun groups to join or new extra curricular activities to do for the kids. I feel if I actually had something to do, I would've moved on much better by now. Im not happy with where I am emotionally. I expected to be so much better off now than I was. But I've spent a great deal just taking care of the kids, seeing to it they get through the transition, and learning as much about this as I can. I've focused way to much on this insanity and they only way to get me look away is to get away.

The PA almost seems more narcissistic than anything. But I finally have an answer to all the insanity I ever came across with that man. I do feel in his case the MLC has brought out the PA much stronger. Before he was the type that would "layer" the PA behavior. They would come far and few between, enough to make you really be suprised, but go and stay away so long you soon forgot about it. It's just been the last 2 years the PA has been full blown and going strong and still is. His reasons for leaving and his behavior has also been classic MLC.
_________________________
M=42 XH=44
M=18 T=21
D14 D11
Divorced 4/2012
XH marries OW 6/2014.

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