There's the address for my most recent thread. Anybody still here who remembers me?
Well, I found myself having fewer and fewer things to say, posting less and less often here, and finally got off the board for a while. W and I were getting along better, and, as recently as 3-4 weeks ago, W said ILY again. 2 different times!
But, of course, when she became more a fixture in my life, I began living my life with the assumption of her presence, enjoying and learning to rely on the positive presence that she was in my life. And, slowly, shifted focus from the changes I was making. Not so much changes in my behavior toward her (although I might have been doing that too - I'm not sure), but changes in the extent to which I was relying on myself, focusing on what I should be.
And then, things crashed. Hard. I don't know if my "falling off the DB wagon" contributed to the crash. I do know that my loss of focus on the 180s made me ill equipped to cope with it. I am a mental health prescriber; I, of all people, know about patients who stop taking their medication when they start feeling better. And that's exactly what I did. Lost my focus when things started feeling better. Now I feel devastated and depressed.
You guys have been my lifeline as I have struggled with my M. So, now, here I come. Back again, feeling stupid. I think I need you again.
What happened? Well, I can't really say where it started, but I can say that things had seemed really much better. W had recognized a couple of episodes when she had been irritable and unkind to me, and she actually woke up early (I usually leave for work quite a while before she wakes up) to apologize to me. We even ML at those times, and those were the times she said ILY. So things seemed to be getting MUCH better.
Well, one time when we were ML (a different time - we had gotten to about once a week - yay!), I was a little clumsy. OK, a lot clumsy. Without getting too detailed, there was one point where she told me I was hurting her. I tried to respond by changing how I was doing things, and she told me that I was doing exactly the same. I tried to change several times, and it just kept getting worse. Maybe I was nervous and self-conscious, or maybe I was just stupid, but it didn't occur to me to just stop until she flat out told me, "STOP." We had to do a little discussing after that one, because she was upset - she felt disregarded and ignored because, from her point of view I just kept doing the same thing when she told me it was hurting. I initially tried to explain what had been going through my mind and why I had acted the way I did, but shortly I caught myself and just expressed to her my understanding of the way I had made her feel, and apologized to her. And it seemed to be OK.
Fast forward 2 weeks. The house is a mess and W and I are aware that this needs to change before the "little stranger" arrives. On nights when I have little time, I start going through our endless pile of junk mail that we have been putting off forever. W expressed her appreciation to me for doing this, and says that she can take care of most of the mail, just asking me to go through stuff addressed to me.
2 nights later, I am going through a few of my letters from work, and notice a stack of today's mail out in the middle of the room. Thinking nothing of it, I pick that up, and ask W what to do with something addressed to her in that pile. W reminds me to just go through my mail, and later that night expresses to me (calmly) that she felt disregarded again, as she had clearly told me to just take care of my own mail and she interpreted this as me ignoring what she said. I apologized and, as I was already in bed, we went to sleep.
The next day she was cold to me. Now this was not entirely unexpected, as I know that it always takes W a while to get past something, especially since so many of her problems wtih me are trust issues, and those are only fixed by long term, CONSISTENT change. But this was more than usual. I came to her and asked how her day was, and she responded, "Why do you ask?" Then she informed me that there was no point to her answering any of my questions, as I ignore what she says anyway. I told her that she was generalizing, and she became furious and immediately brought up the two weeks before in bed. Then she informed me that I have always been that insensitive in bed (for 18 years of marriage), and that she has only continued to have sex with me because she felt that, as my wife, she ought to. She also said that she wanted sex often, and would have it every day if she could, but my insensitivity made it so unpleasant that it has led to our sparse sex life. She told me that she had tried to tell me while we were ML in the past, but I would immediately become so self conscious and even more clumsy (which, I seem to recall, did happen several times) that she concluded that this made it only the worse, so she gave up.
The following day, I tried to clarify with her my understanding of what she had said, and she added that my ignoring of what she wanted and what she said for the past 18 years was not limited only to the bedroom, but has been the case in every area of my life.
She no longer feels obligated to have sex with me and, knowing how she feels about it and what an ordeal she says it has been, it wouldn't be any fun for me, anyway. I would be more than willing to learn, but she is filled with so much resentment (judging by the way she talked to me) that I don't think she even really wants to try.
And there is a new baby coming into the middle of all this! Feel sorry for the kid.
And you can guess I am feeling pretty depressed. Since all this stuff exploded we have been talking to each other casually, and since the expectation of sex or affection is not there right now, there is not a HUGE amound of tension between us.
I just don't know where things are going right now.
So, in short, I guess I might have left the board prematurely.
Think about it...if you met a potential mate who was nothing but a bundle of needs, would YOU be attracted to them?
Sorry to see you're back. The solution to your issue as I see it is so plain and simple. She can not be any more clear.
LISTEN TO HER...
She tells you that she FEELS you don't listen and your response is, "you're generalizing"... Not good!
Don't try to change her feelings. Don't tell her that her feelings are wrong. You can't! You are not her! Her feelings are hers. She is entitled to them.
Just validate and listen...
Now, about the sex thing. It's simple. There are givers in the bedroom and there are takers. Be a giver! And when the time is right (and only when the time is right), ask her what she wants or how she likes it. Ask her what makes her feel good. Do not ask these questions during sex. Ask when you can really listen...
Remember, you need to make love to her brain first before even thinking about her body. As men we all know this but we forget or we stop once we "get them"...
When is the last time you had a bath together complete with candle light, flowers, champagne, and soft music WITHOUT the expectation of sex?
When is the last time your had flowers delivered?
When is the last time you planned a date from start to finish? Not a date night but YOU taking HER on a date.
How about the last time you had a candle lit dinner? Bought her a little gift? Rubbed her feet? Painted her toes?
How about a tandem massage at a high end massage place?
Once you are piecing again, make this a 180. Not a temporaty one but a permanent staple in your relationship.
And the one thing I never forget is, in most cases...
Men want to MAKE love, and women want to BE loved!
Good luck my friend...
M: 42 - W: 41 - M: 18 - T: 23 - D:16 S:14 EA - July 2010 NC w/EA - Nov 2010 Piecing - Jan 2011 I ask for div - Jan 2012 Div papers filed - Mar 2012 I move out - July 2012 Divorce final - Nov 7, 2012
Thank you so much for answering me. Coming back here after months made me feel a little apprehensive, and it means a lot knowing someone is listening.
You are right about the listening thing. When she talks to me about how angry she is with me, I feel very afraid - afraid that whatever she is saying about me will become a lasting label, something she will never see past. I guess the only way to get her to see past it is to stop defending myself and just change. It just seems that when I validate her I am agreeing with her - that I don't ever listen, that I am insensitive and uncaring. It seems like I can't ever place myself low enough when she is angry at me - she can always tell me that I'm lower still. At least that's how I hear it. I feel like a poorly behaved child being scolded. It really hurts to hear these statements that make me sound like a terrible person. And I don't always know how to listen without what is being said sinking in...making me believe that what she is saying is what I am.
Reading what I just wrote, I can't believe what an insecure person I must be. The fact is, you are right. I need to listen to what she says, for the sake of what she is feeling, not reading into it what that would mean about me. Well...got something to talk about in IC next week!
As far as the "sex thing" goes, I think your guns are a little off target. First, because of where we have been as a couple for the last few years, I haven't even been initiating sex, but just letting W initiate. No expectations of sex from me lately. And W hasn't really been open to romantic gestures. There have been too many times when I have ignored what she was asking me for, and then trying to be romantic with her. At this point, she has stated that the only thing that means anything to her is my response to what she asks for, what she wants. (Yeah, it's a long story, but you are right if you have guessed that I have spent a good many years screwing it up.) What she was complaining about that night was - to put it delicately - my lack of fine motor skills. I'm afraid that my hands can be a little rough - not that it is intentional on my part; if I only were able to do what I meant to do, I would be the gentlest, most sensitive man in the world. As it is, however, I'm a clod.
Oh, and I forgot to tell you the one thing that most made me feel embarrassed. As the tone of the conversation was quieting down the other day, I stopped and asked W a very important question. She has told me I don't know how many times that she is tired of hearing "I'm sorry" from me. I asked her what I could do to express to her the fact that I heard and understood her feelings, and that I truly wanted better for her. I asked her what I could do to change things. Her response: "I want you to work on YOURSELF."
You can't believe what an idiot I felt like. After all, I am the one who has been reading DR, not her. But she knew what I needed most - to become a better person independent of her.
So, now I am trying to scrape myself up off the floor - which is hard, because, once again, I have let myself place my whole life in orbit around W.
Anyway, in a strange way, it is good to be back. You guys are awesome, and I think I need your influence in my life.
Think about it...if you met a potential mate who was nothing but a bundle of needs, would YOU be attracted to them?
Yeah, Mr. Bond (James?), I'm pretty sure that her hormones are pretty royally messed up due to her pregnancy. But it goes beyond that. I would expect her to have transitory mood states if they were mostly hormonal. She is angry and hurt, and has been staying that way for days on end. She says I have been insensitive for years, and she is acting like it, staying very aloof from me, as though trying to protect herself.
I don't know, hormones could be part of it, but there is something more that I have to respond to.
Think about it...if you met a potential mate who was nothing but a bundle of needs, would YOU be attracted to them?
Hormones are definitely a part of it. I would consult someone about that. Her saying those things to you could be a part of depression. IMO, accept what she says with a grain of salt. There comes a point where you don't have to validate EVERYTHING she says. Sometimes a little truth dart here and there is not bad.
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
I meant he should consult a regular physician to see if this is a possibility. Working on a M is hard enough. Throw in a pregnancy, and all the insecurities can come out.
My own W suffered from depression during her pregnancy which had her thinking all sorts of crazy stuff.
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
Mr. Bond, you are not entirely off base in your "take it with a grain of salt"...at least, not according to my IC. She has been trying for ages to give my W some responsibility for our relationship. To not take everything she says personally, to recognize that she sometimes has bad days and they are not always my fault.
Ironically, Gabbysmom, that is one of the things I need to do in order to LISTEN to her. Let me explain. My default mode, when W gets angry or upset, is to assume that I must have done something wrong. I react by feeling guilty or defensive (or, most often, both, which actually end up being the same thing). Both of these stances place my focus squarely on myself, and keep me from focusing on W, and what she is feeling.
So, in essence, Mr. Bond and Gabbysmom, you are both right.
Work has been crazy the last couple of days, so I haven't typed anything for a while. But I know now that I need to enter something in here every day that I can (every day would be a good goal). As I said last time I was a regular poster, this is really my journal, and I learn a lot about myself discussing here.
Things are pretty quiet on the home front right now. Poor W has been sick a lot (ever heard of late onset morning sickness? It stinks), and too tired to talk much. We are just casually passing each other and only talking about superficial things. But that's not bad. It gives me a chance to process what we have been talking about, and takes some of the strain of relationship conflict off me, so I can actually work on some things rather than being paralyzed by stress.
Of course, these relationship problems have been present on and off throughout our marriage, and now some of the things she has said in the past are coming back into my mind. Wheels are starting to turn and I see little flashes of insight. I remember a couple of years ago, W told me that she had fallen in love with a man who looked like me in the late 90s, a man who was considerate, sensitive, thoughtful and a good listener, but that when she married him, he left and I took his place. I can't say how long I've puzzled and tried to start acting like that man again. Of course I want to be that man! Not only are those all qualities I really liked about myself, but let's face it, isn't it natural to want someone to be madly in love with you? Doesn't a husband naturally want to be his wife's dream man?
Back in those days, I had very few responsibilities, and the only thing I had to pay attention to, the only thing that mattered, was to be everything I could be to that woman I loved. What a rush it was to know that I could mean that much to someone I cared for so much, that I could give so much. I think what happened was that when I suddenly had responsibilities, I suddenly had to squeeze more out of my time, I had to push myself harder, I was always looking over my shoulder for fear I had missed something or wasn't doing things right. And honestly, I usually wasn't. Being the go-to guy did not come easily for me, and it has only been in the last few years that I have finally been able to provide decently for my family. W is doing the bills, because I have a hard time organizing and being consistent with that kind of a schedule, and W used to work in a bank and excels in those things. But I became obsessed with trying to become a more responsible person. I forgot what it felt like to be that person who only cared about people, not about things. And even though I know that I need to care about things (like paychecks, home repairs, etc.), I think I would be the man she fell in love with if I could have times - moments - when I went back to only caring about people - only caring about her, for the moment.
The other day, I had a moment when I actually remembered what it felt like to be that other man. The guy who listened, and valued what was going on between us. It seems trite to try to put it into words, but believe me, it is nothing small. Recalling what it was like to have that as a part of myself, and to feel good about it. It's something that comes across as feigned when I "try to be sensitive." I don't know if anyone reading this will understand, or if I am just journaling for my own benefit.
Well, I have to get back to work, now. Take care, everyone.
Think about it...if you met a potential mate who was nothing but a bundle of needs, would YOU be attracted to them?
Just remember, foreplay begins at breakfast. Bringing her a cup of tea, feeding the pets.....what is her love language?
Money, work/home responsibilities, and division of labor happen to all of us.
It's those sweet, nurturing, attentive times you need to sustain.
Hurt during sex? OK, time to really slow down....I mean S L O W down and d what feels good. Look into "tantric sex."
One of the most amazing times is when H and I have several HOURS and get Champagne, and strawberries....take hours of foreplay etc. Orgasm is not the object, connection is! OK, W is preggers, no Alcohol, but fruit....you get the idea. ;-)
MZ
M 55 H 58 M 24 T 29 S 22,21, 19 Bomb 4/10 It (A) really isn't about you 11/2013 We all have work to do
The truth will set you free, but it will almost kill you first.
Thank you so much for taking the time to write your advice.
We have 5 kids (BEFORE the new bundle comes), so taking several hours is kinda out of the question (if W had it, she would be asleep within the 1st 30 minutes - so would I, LOL), but I think I get what you are saying. Sometimes I get so excited during sex that it is hard to focus myself on what I am doing for her. I do need to slow down.
W's LL is acts of service (so she has told me - she read the book), so I try to do what I can to make things better for her around the home. House is badly cluttered right now, so there is plenty of opportunity for me to provide her with some of that service, since the clutter is one of her chief sources of stress.
As for being attentive - well, that is one of my challenges, because W is not always open to that. She has nights when she gets on the computer, and then she really does not want to be interrupted (I think that pattern is partly an outgrowth of years of tension in our relationship). It's during those times that I get involved in things I am doing, and then sometimes I miss times when she needs me to be attentive. I am getting a little better about that, however. I just tend to get into a groove, and it is hard for me to shift gears once I am there. Look up "Asperger." It's a pain in the neck, but once I work around all the messed up things that keep me from connecting with others, I'm really a nice guy. Really.
There is some other stuff I would like to talk about - progress I have made in working on ME...but I am short on time right now, and I would like to write about it fully, so I can really explore what it means to me. So I will say TTFN.
Think about it...if you met a potential mate who was nothing but a bundle of needs, would YOU be attracted to them?
