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#2206197 - 12/18/11 11:57 AM Not sure of next step
Shaky Offline
Member

Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 67
Loc: Hillsboro,Or.
I got the the bomb end of August. Same speech as I've read here many times.

I'm 42 years old, she is 41. I've been married 15 years, together 20 years.

2 kids, a boy 9 years old and a girl 6.

We both work full time jobs. She became a manager about 3 years ago and her job is much more demanding and stressful. I own a business with my best friend from high school for the last 15 years.

Both of our parents are happily married and we all get together during the holidays, birthdays, etc.

For me this was so far out in left field I was dumbfounded. I've always thought our marriage was pretty good overall. We both have hobbies that don't include one another and the rest of the time we are together dealing with family life.

I now no lack of communication is the root of this sitch. On bomb day she said I take her for granted, am controlling and at this point she wants space and doesn't know what she wants but is not happy and hasn't been happy for a few years.

I immediately found this board and order the divorce remedy book and at first did the basic steps of no begging, pleading etc. Just gave her space like she asked. I started working on me. I'm back to running 3 miles a day Monday-Friday and lifting weights 3 times a week. I really feel great overall. Another area I'm working on is becoming the best dad possible. I think this was part of the taking her for granted as she has done way more overall with making sure the kids homework is done, etc. She has commented that she really appreciates me helping more with the kids.


So to get to the point we are at now:

We are in the same house.
We sleep together, no intimacy.
We have gone to marriage counseling for 4 sessions.
She has gone to individual counseling with the same counselor about 6 times.

I feel that overall things are getting better (no divorce talk) but it seems like there is no love from her. It seems like she would rather just live with the kids. When the therapist asks how we are doing with intimacy my wife says she can't do that right now and doesn't know why or when. In our first therapy session I said I would put no pressure on her for sex and just wait until she is ready but it would seem as I might be waiting awhile as it not important at all at the moment.

How do I get the passion back?
_________________________
M 42
W 41
S 10
D 7
M 15 Years
T 20 Years
Divorce busted

Top
#2206428 - 12/19/11 01:40 PM Re: Not sure of next step [Re: Shaky]
~ kd ~ Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/11
Posts: 4866
Loc: Canoe'k-land
Good to see you posting, Shaky. And congratulations on making the changes in yourself. Remember that these changes are for you and have no expectations that they will make your W "come back to you."

Your W, when asked, says she does not know why she is not "attracted" to you. This is important.

First, you may have read here that we should believe none of what the WAS says and only 50% of what they do. While this is true especially in LRT (last resort technique), this comes with caveats...

There are certain things, such as them asking for space, that we really should take at face value.

Anything that you do could be seen as pressure. That does not mean you do nothing. It simply means that you have no control over how she takes what you do. So do what you do, for you to be better. Keep what is good, become an even better version of yourself, and stop doing what isn't working.

We cannot mind read, so there is no way for you to know what your W might find attractive... what might attract her to you and fuel that passion... unless she tells you, and she states she does not know...

Stay focused on you, be the best person you can be, and have patience...

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#2206455 - 12/19/11 03:39 PM Re: Not sure of next step [Re: ~ kd ~]
Shaky Offline
Member

Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 67
Loc: Hillsboro,Or.
Journeling:

I'm thinking my next step should be to set up a date with just her and I. The old me would just ask her opinion about where she wants to eat and go with it. Seems as though she wants me to plan the evening. I know she wants something to look forward to, something she can put on her calender.

Why didn't she just ask in the past? I suck at mind reading. Maybe she was and I wasn't listening? Seems that is another area I need to work on.

I need more reading material. So far I have read DB and 5 love languages and know her love language is words of affirmation and giving gifts in the past was a waste of my time, lol. Any good idea's for words of affirmation?

So how do I address items in counseling sessions? I know we are there to go over issue's but she seems to be the one holding the cards. It is easier for me to say as little as possible as I'm overall happy with the marriage but if she is going to bash me, I feel the need to speak up and this seems to create a lot of tension for both of us.

Seems as though she wants me to change but thinks she has been a perfect angel this whole time. Yeah right, I've been to 4 sessions and each time after the sessions I keep thinking is it really worth it. There are times I would rather just be alone and just have to be in charge of my own happiness.

For now I will just get my emotional love from the kids, try to be as patient as possible and try a few 180's.

Feels good to get my thoughts out.
_________________________
M 42
W 41
S 10
D 7
M 15 Years
T 20 Years
Divorce busted

Top
#2207027 - 12/21/11 04:37 PM Re: Not sure of next step [Re: Shaky]
Shaky Offline
Member

Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 67
Loc: Hillsboro,Or.
To the top.

Need some idea's for books to read.
_________________________
M 42
W 41
S 10
D 7
M 15 Years
T 20 Years
Divorce busted

Top
#2207140 - 12/21/11 10:07 PM (NA) Re: Not sure of next step [Re: Shaky]
dbmod Offline
Member

Registered: 08/04/08
Posts: 2155
Hi Shaky, welcome to divorcebusting.com--officially!

What did you and your W used to do when you first fell in love, when you were having fun -- together?

What are your common grounds, the things that you both like?

When you have your 'own things' what are they?

You have so much hope...and your key is to REALLY LISTENING and RESPONDING to her.

"On bomb day she said I take her for granted, am controlling and at this point she wants space and doesn't know what she wants but is not happy and hasn't been happy for a few years."

Ask her, get her to open up and DO NOT DEFEND YOURSELF. Get to the root of what makes her happy. The truth is, it isn't all your fault, but that position will not help you win. Let her get it out. It will be so worth it in the long run.


Besides DR, the other books recommended on this site deal with communication and building commonalities (love languages, learning each others needs) versus trying to get you to be 'more macho' and 'setting boundaries'. Both of those things can be good, but they are not your first line of defense and do not speak to the things you have just talked about.

So if WORDS OF AFFIRMATION are important to her, probably affection is as well. Compliments, and the way you give them, are important.

So, tell me some of the compliments you give to her. Say them EXACTLY as you say them to her.
_________________________
dbmod

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#2207156 - 12/21/11 10:37 PM (NA) Re: Not sure of next step [Re: dbmod]
kolja Offline
Member

Registered: 12/15/11
Posts: 335
Loc: WA
Not defending oneself when trying to learn what's going on is another thing I wish I'd known a while ago. It's good advice, that's for sure!

My counselor today loaned me "The Love Dare" (in addition to "Divorce Remedy"). I'll let you know how it is when I finish it!
_________________________
Me: 36
Her: 35
Together 7/09
Married 8/7/10
Separate rooms since at least April 11
"I've decided I want a divorce" 12/5/11
She moves out of state/files 2/7/12
Dissolution final 5/12

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#2207158 - 12/21/11 10:41 PM Re: Not sure of next step [Re: Shaky]
purgatory Offline
Member

Registered: 12/12/11
Posts: 825
Loc: Virginia
Welcome Shaky! I'm sorry that you're going through this, but you've come to the right spot to find encouragement and support! I have found that having a platform to 'vent' and 'make sure I'm on the right track' has been priceless. There are so many veterans here and they have great advice from their experiences.

In regards to her LL being words of affirmation (this is mine too) I can tell you what I always wanted/asked for from my H:
- Acknowledge when I did something that I didn't HAVE to do (ie: I would make him breakfast the night before since he didn't have a lot of time in the morning. I did this so often, that he thought it was just normal and never said "thank you")
- Compliment clothes/hair/perfume... something about how I look. Be specific as possible: "You look great tonight. There's no way anyone would think someone as sexy as you has two kids!"
- Catch me off guard and say 'I love you' when it's not expected.
**Keep in mind, that to WOA people, negative words are that much more devastating** So any critique or criticism in any way, shape or form is the same as a slap to the face. [I made dinner one night (and always expected to hear: 'this is great honey, thanks') my H said: 'um, it's ok. Maybe you could try not to burn it next time?' He didn't understand why I left the table very mad and didn't talk to him the rest of the night. Looking back, I didn't fully understand why I was so hurt- I just knew that I was really insulted.]

You got more that 2 cents worth smile
I hope that you continue to post and seek out guidance on this long journey.
_________________________
M-31, H-31
T-9, M-7
S-6, s-20mth
sep 8/1/11
ILYNILWY 11/29/11
Creating separation papers.
Discover H has feelings for BFF, she does too 1/11/12
H moves out 1.20.12

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#2207163 - 12/21/11 10:45 PM Re: (NA) Re: Not sure of next step [Re: dbmod]
Shaky Offline
Member

Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 67
Loc: Hillsboro,Or.
Originally Posted By: dbmod
Hi Shaky, welcome to divorcebusting.com--officially!

Dbmod: Thanks for the warm welcome

What did you and your W used to do when you first fell in love, when you were having fun -- together?

Plan a trip away something like Las Vegas, go out dancing, dinner date.

What are your common grounds, the things that you both like?

We both like going to the beach, playing cards, vacations to Mexico, going on a cruise.

When you have your 'own things' what are they?

For me I like having my guy friends over or go out for the night. For hobbies I like to restore Mk4 Toyota Supra's 1993-1998 turbo.

You have so much hope...and your key is to REALLY LISTENING and RESPONDING to her.

"On bomb day she said I take her for granted, am controlling and at this point she wants space and doesn't know what she wants but is not happy and hasn't been happy for a few years."

Ask her, get her to open up and DO NOT DEFEND YOURSELF. Get to the root of what makes her happy. The truth is, it isn't all your fault, but that position will not help you win. Let her get it out. It will be so worth it in the long run.

I will do this, I think I was just defending myself and not listening very well. I was in shock and not thinking clearly.


Besides DR, the other books recommended on this site deal with communication and building commonalities (love languages, learning each others needs) versus trying to get you to be 'more macho' and 'setting boundaries'. Both of those things can be good, but they are not your first line of defense and do not speak to the things you have just talked about.

So if WORDS OF AFFIRMATION are important to her, probably affection is as well. Compliments, and the way you give them, are important.

So, tell me some of the compliments you give to her. Say them EXACTLY as you say them to her.

That's the thing, I just found out she is all about Words of Affirmation and I'm having a hard time with the compliments but I need to work on this.
_________________________
M 42
W 41
S 10
D 7
M 15 Years
T 20 Years
Divorce busted

Top
#2207408 - 12/22/11 10:28 PM Re: (NA) Re: Not sure of next step [Re: Shaky]
Shaky Offline
Member

Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 67
Loc: Hillsboro,Or.
Purgatory:

Thanks for the suggestions. I've been trying to think of ways to give her compliments without her thinking I'm trying to manipulate or control the situation to get what I want.

Things are looking up for me this week. W has been kissing me goodnight and telling me she loves me when she leaves. Lots of hugs as well. It seems very genuine and a step in the right direction. I'm going with the flow and still need to set a date night but with the holidays we are very busy right now.
_________________________
M 42
W 41
S 10
D 7
M 15 Years
T 20 Years
Divorce busted

Top
#2207678 - 12/24/11 03:56 AM Re: (NA) Re: Not sure of next step [Re: Shaky]
dbmod Offline
Member

Registered: 08/04/08
Posts: 2155
Good job! You are doing something RIGHT!


So, she would not only need to be complimented but if you are critical, it will have more of an impact on her than other folks. Keep the positive to negative ratio very high.


Keep up the good work!
_________________________
dbmod

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#2207695 - 12/24/11 07:18 AM Re: (NA) Re: Not sure of next step [Re: dbmod]
mmayre16 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/17/11
Posts: 295
Hi, Shaky! Sorry you have to be here, but in a crappy situation, this is a great place to call home. It sounds like you are really taking the right steps. You were asking about literature. In addition to Divorce Remedy and the 5 Love Languages, I also really liked His Needs Her Needs (although it could be construed as a little sexist at some points). But I liked it because it has little surveys you fill out that not only help you learn about your spouse, but learn about yourself too (like, I'm physically attracted to my H, but in the grand scheme of things, that is least important to me, which I never realized). And if you go to his website, there's a LOT of free info on there. Also, just for your own mental nourishment, I liked The Art of Happiness by the Dalai Lama.

I think the thing you need to keep in mind is patience is key. It is more than just a virtue in this f-ed up game, it's a necessity.

Also, MWD outlines that you should take careful behavioral observations and write it all down. As a behaviorist, this is how we determine if our "treatment" is working. We have to write down measurable behaviors. You can't measure feelings (i.e. don't write down "She was happy today". You don't know that. You aren't in her head). BUT, you can write down things that you pointed out like, "kisses me goodnight" or "said 'I love you' 3 times today". After you track it for a while, you may see the pattern of behavior change (like going from 3 ILYs to 6 ILYs). When you figure out what you want to increase and how you can contribute to that, you will feel like you have a little more control on this rollercoaster. At least it did for me.

That's all for now! Hope it helps! You sound like you're doing all the right stuff.
_________________________
Me: 29
H: 31
D: 2
M: 5 years
T: 10 years
ILYBNILWY 2/28/11
I ask for trial separation: 6/3/11
H wants me home: 11/21/11
Found OW emails from 3/11: 3/12
Found pictures from 3/11: 9/12

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#2207704 - 12/24/11 08:26 AM Re: Not sure of next step [Re: Shaky]
sandi2 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/27/07
Posts: 10714
JMO, Shaky, but I don't like the Love Dare at all. It seems too pursuing. That's the last thing your W wants now. Which leads me to the next thing....as for you making a date with her.....I don't suggest you do that right now. She isn't feeling turned on to you, and a date isn't going to fix it. If you want to know what will....find the man she fell in love with, and start with that.

Unless your W really wants to remain in the M, I don't know if seeing the MC together works well. Sometimes, that just becomes the field to have battles.
_________________________
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!

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#2207715 - 12/24/11 09:08 AM Re: Not sure of next step [Re: sandi2]
Hopeful321 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/18/11
Posts: 385
Loc: FL
I agree with Sandi2 about everything. I enjoyed the movie "Fireproof" and but if you read the book, it is pursuing.

As far as a date, I agree with Sandi2, it's too soon. I know if it was me, it would be.

As far as MC together, it did not work so well with me and my H. Before we would go in, we laughing and kissing, but when we came out, we would not talk to each other the rest of the night. I believe the MC destroyed us even more. But IC helped me alot.
_________________________
H: 45
W: 44
D: 2 1/2
S: 20 (college) My 20 & 19 yrs old are from my 1st marriage
S: 19 (college
D: 19 (college)

M: 3
H: Bomb #1 6-2010
H: Bomb #2 7-2011
H: Separated: 7-11-11
Reconciling 2-2012

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#2207744 - 12/24/11 11:32 AM Re: (NA) Re: Not sure of next step [Re: dbmod]
Shaky Offline
Member

Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 67
Loc: Hillsboro,Or.
Originally Posted By: dbmod
Good job! You are doing something RIGHT!


So, she would not only need to be complimented but if you are critical, it will have more of an impact on her than other folks. Keep the positive to negative ratio very high.


Keep up the good work!


[color:#FF6666][/color]Yes, she has always struggled with her weight and I know in the past I have been critical about it at times.

I have always had an easy time maintaining an average weight. Have always stayed active and watch what I eat.

She has worked really hard for the last 6 months and she looks great.

Only positive comments, no more negative one's spewing from my mouth.
_________________________
M 42
W 41
S 10
D 7
M 15 Years
T 20 Years
Divorce busted

Top
#2207757 - 12/24/11 01:02 PM Re: Not sure of next step [Re: Hopeful321]
sandi2 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/27/07
Posts: 10714
Quote:
Before we would go in, we laughing and kissing, but when we came out, we would not talk to each other the rest of the night. I believe the MC destroyed us even more.


I think this is true in many cases, b/c in the session unpleasant issues are brought up and not worked out. The couple leaves worse than when they went in.

Shaky, I'm not totally knocking the concept of marriage counseling, but if you have a spouse that's thinking seriously about walking....I would not advise seeing one together. I think seeing a pro-marriage counselor separately would work better. And Shaky, if you've admitted it or not, you do have a wife that is thinking about walking away from you and the M. She probably hasn't used those words to you yet, but as soon as the holidays are past, you need to brace yourself.

Sorry to lay this on you right here on Christmas Eve. But the sooner you get the right information as what to do and not do....the better.

Right now, don't try to give her physical affection. Don't try to be romantic. Don't try to get holiday sex. smirk You know what I'm talking about!

Act as upbeat and as fun as you possible can....(and you'll find out you're stronger than you thought). She'll relax more if you seem to be content and not hinting at having sex or time alone with her after everyone has gone and the kids are in bed. That's not what she wants and she'll stay as clear from you as she can if you even look at her with those thoughts in your head. So, are we clear about the sex part?
_________________________
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!

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#2208058 - 12/26/11 12:20 PM Re: Not sure of next step [Re: sandi2]
Shaky Offline
Member

Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 67
Loc: Hillsboro,Or.
Sandi-

What is Love Dare? My w is the one that suggested marriage counseling.

The marriage counselor is the one that suggested a one on one date and my w agreed she would like that, just haven't had time with all the holiday stuff going on. W said it would be nice if I planned something without her input.

I agree with you about being romantic. I already told w in a counseling session that I would not pursue her for sex, she would have to pursue me. The counselor is the one trying to push w for intimacy, not me. I'm just acting like she is a good friend with no benefits at the moment.

I'm going to set up a one on one with our counselor and see if that gives me more info to work with.
_________________________
M 42
W 41
S 10
D 7
M 15 Years
T 20 Years
Divorce busted

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#2209621 - 01/01/12 05:14 PM Re: Not sure of next step [Re: Shaky]
Shaky Offline
Member

Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 67
Loc: Hillsboro,Or.
Happy New Year everyone. 2012 has to be a better year, lol.

I dropped my kids off at my sister's place yesterday about 3:30, they received a cake pop baking set from her for Christmas.

My wife went to happy hour with a girlfriend about 1 and then we were meeting my parents, my sister/brother in law back at her place for dinner at around 6:30.

As I was driving back to my place I get a call from my wife asking me to meet her and her friend for a drink. I thought it was strange but a good sign and said ok.

Had to stop by my place to shower, get dressed up, etc. When I found them in the bar my wife looked really amazing all dressed up. I wasn't home when she was getting ready. Her friend noticed I was wearing a new button up shirt and complimented me on it. I had a couple beers and they tried to get me to do a shot but said no thanks. Hard alcohol always gets me in trouble so I have cut it down a lot. Only had a few beers the whole night.

So something wife did she hasn't done in a long time, while at the bar she took a picture of her and I and posted on facebook. I can feel the ice thawing and really like it.

Don't want this update to get to long so we went back to my sisters house for an excellent dinner and stopped by our friends place for a couple hours overall had a great night with the wife and best thing is she really seemed to enjoy the night as well.
_________________________
M 42
W 41
S 10
D 7
M 15 Years
T 20 Years
Divorce busted

Top
#2210348 - 01/04/12 04:07 PM Re: Not sure of next step [Re: Shaky]
Shaky Offline
Member

Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 67
Loc: Hillsboro,Or.
Not much has changed, just living like roommates.

I need to try something else. I've been in this limbo since August and I can feel the resentment taking over. How long do I wait?

I really want to detach more to save my sanity but I'm not sure if it is the right thing to do.

I feel I have been patient but not sure if I can keep living like this.

If I had a spare bedroom in my house I would just move into that but its not an option and I'm not sleeping on the couch.

What is going on with her? Why does she feel this way? Why does she not want to be with me physically?
_________________________
M 42
W 41
S 10
D 7
M 15 Years
T 20 Years
Divorce busted

Top
#2210354 - 01/04/12 04:29 PM Re: (NA) Re: Not sure of next step [Re: dbmod]
penster Offline
New Member

Registered: 11/24/11
Posts: 12
Hi, I have the same sitch with my H I think it's good that you spend to time with your kids but it won't fix the problems with your W. Ignoring her and putting energies elsewhere will just make her feel more justified in pulling back. Try to get to know her a bit better what makes her tick, what makes her feel loved if she goes on the defensive immedately pull back. But then continue at a later date when things are relaxed don't force.
_________________________
H:36
W:43
M:12
T:15
S:10
D:8
D:4

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#2210581 - 01/05/12 06:37 PM Re: (NA) Re: Not sure of next step [Re: penster]
Shaky Offline
Member

Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 67
Loc: Hillsboro,Or.
Had a really good talk to wife yesterday and didn't know it was as easy as asking what she wants.

She wants to feel loved and appreciated. It has taken awhile to get to this far and would be so much easier to quit but I will just go at it slow and easy and hopefully everything will fall into place. Going to order up No more mister nice guy and passionte marriage tonight.

I need to work on communication, I know it is the key.
_________________________
M 42
W 41
S 10
D 7
M 15 Years
T 20 Years
Divorce busted

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#2211422 - 01/09/12 01:59 PM Re: (NA) Re: Not sure of next step [Re: Shaky]
penster Offline
New Member

Registered: 11/24/11
Posts: 12
Connection through communicating is the key but you're right take your time.
_________________________
H:36
W:43
M:12
T:15
S:10
D:8
D:4

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#2211520 - 01/09/12 07:40 PM (NA) Re: (NA) Re: Not sure of next step [Re: penster]
dbmod Offline
Member

Registered: 08/04/08
Posts: 2155
^
_________________________
dbmod

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#2213569 - 01/17/12 03:14 PM (NA) Re: (NA) Re: Not sure of next step [Re: dbmod]
Shaky Offline
Member

Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 67
Loc: Hillsboro,Or.
I'm up and down depending on the day. Overall I'm happy with life, hanging out with the kids. Kids are doing great, my son was in his first Chess tournament last weekend, he is 9 and won 3 out of 5 games. Has been playing for 6 months and I'm glad he found something he is interested in besides video games.

Have been to one solo counseling session and it didn't really help much. We talked about how disconnected I feel. Well for me I want her to initiate a little romance. I'm not even sure what I expect but not being touched physically is really hard to deal with.

Wife went on a girl's trip to the beach for this last weekend. I had a few guys over for Friday, had a great time catching up. Haven't seen them in a couple months. I used to host a guys night every Tues. after work before my marriage problems. Just a time to relax, have a few beers and chat. I cut that out after w started giving me the cold shoulder before the big talk.

On Saturday w sister called and wanted the kids overnight for a slumber party. This was the first time I have been home by myself with no w or kids and it was the best night I have had in a long time. Built a fire, watched a movie and read a book.

Still lost and no game plan. I kinda want to put my foot down and call her bluff but I don't see pressing her for answers is going to help my situation.

What are some other ways to show my wife I love her? I think I'm in the waiting stage where she wants to make sure my changes are for real and not just temporary.
_________________________
M 42
W 41
S 10
D 7
M 15 Years
T 20 Years
Divorce busted

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#2214184 - 01/19/12 06:19 PM (NA) Re: (NA) Re: Not sure of next step [Re: Shaky]
Accuray Offline
Member

Registered: 07/20/11
Posts: 2088
Your W told you she wants to "feel loved and appreciated". That's a feeling, so you can't deliver that. You have to ask her "What makes you feel loved and appreciated" and get it down to specifics.

Another way to ask is "when you feel loved and appreciated, what am I doing?". If you can get it down to behaviors, *you* can do those.

I know you took a look at my sitch, I don't know if you read this. When my W and I were in your place, I asked her what was bothering her about being intimate.

She said she was afraid that whenever she was physical or affectionate with me at all, that I would assume it would lead to sex, or try to escalate things. i.e. if she held my hand, I would kiss her, etc. That was too much pressure.

We got through that by discussing it and agreeing that I will never escalate physical affection. If she holds my hand, I can hold hers. If she hugs me, I can hug her. That puts her in control and makes it "safe" to be physical, and physical is a necessary precursor to intimate.

So first, "no escalation"

Secondly, we agreed that my W would be the one to initiate sex. We agreed on a frequency, and she could do it whenever she wanted, but that ideally she'd stick to the agreed upon frequency. This does three things -- once again it puts her in control, it gives her relief from being asked for sex when she doesn't want to provide it, and it saves you from feeling rejected.

If you haven't yet, you should read "The Sex Starved Marriage", it may help you get out of where you are. I would hold off on reading "Passionate Marriage", that will do you more harm than good right now.

Finally, I read in "how to improve your marriage without talking about it" that you and your W should make it a habit to hug for 6 seconds every morning before you leave the house, and for 6 seconds when you meet up again at the end of the day. Make it a rule, it doesn't matter if one of you doesn't want to, and make sure it lasts 6 seconds. This does 3 things -- (1) it helps to release built-up resentments without talking, (2) it helps to get you re-connected, and (3) it helps to strengthen your bonding.

After I read that I read another study that said that women who are hugged regularly for six seconds or more have a bonding response to their partner -- it's a reptilian/mammalian brain thing that is not voluntary.

Hope that helps!

Accuray
_________________________
Married 18, Together 20
M: 45, W: 47, D: 15, S: 13, D: 9
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11
Start Reconcile: 8/15/11
ILYBINILWY (again) 7/12
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014

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#2216161 - 01/26/12 05:36 PM (NA) Re: (NA) Re: Not sure of next step [Re: Accuray]
Shaky Offline
Member

Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 67
Loc: Hillsboro,Or.
Accuray-

Thanks for stopping by, I somehow missed your post. In marriage counseling I said I wouldn't pressure her for sex at all and would wait until she is ready. She said holding hands and other intimacy is fine if I want that but sex is out of the question for now.

Well, I'm going on 6 months and still no reaching out from her end. I feel like I'm the only one even trying. If I snuggle with her at night it is me holding her hand or rubbing her back. She never touches me at all, besides the quick hugs and kisses. It is really frustrating because I feel like I have the plague or I'm just not worth the effort on her end.

We always hug(less than 6 sec.) and kiss in the morning and when going to bed. She tells me she loves me but words are not enough I want action. Not sex just touch for now. I'm ok with slow but not me always initiating. Is that too much to ask? Is she afraid if she touches me it will lead to sex? Hello, I already said I wouldn't try anything.

I haven't read "The sex starved marriage", but will download it on my Kindle tonight.

It was so weird we went to a really expensive restaurant last Saturday, had a great time, its her favorite place. After we ate she reminded me about her upcoming Sebatical this summer, she will have 6 weeks off this time and she asked if I would take her to Italy. I about fell off my chair, I'm not getting any of my needs met but she can ask for a trip to Europe? I wanted to ask if she was dellusional? There has been lots of crazy requests like that.

I played it off but she can't seriously think everything is all back to normal can she?
_________________________
M 42
W 41
S 10
D 7
M 15 Years
T 20 Years
Divorce busted

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#2217233 - 01/30/12 02:35 PM (NA) Re: (NA) Re: Not sure of next step [Re: Shaky]
Shaky Offline
Member

Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 67
Loc: Hillsboro,Or.
My patients is running thin. I can't live like this forever and I can't make my w love me. That is her choice and she has checked out for now.

I'm going to go talk to a lawyer this week to figure out my rights.
_________________________
M 42
W 41
S 10
D 7
M 15 Years
T 20 Years
Divorce busted

Top
#2217300 - 01/30/12 06:19 PM (NA) Re: (NA) Re: Not sure of next step [Re: Shaky]
Accuray Offline
Member

Registered: 07/20/11
Posts: 2088
You're stepping off the cliff there Shaky. If my W had not touched me at all in 6 months I know I would be crazy too, are you sure you've exhausted every avenue except for a lawyer?

If she asked you to take her to Italy 4 days ago, she's obviously thinking longer term. Did you consider actually taking her? Why not?

Here's what I recommend before going the lawyer route:

1) Work with a telephone coach on this site: It costs about the same as a therapy session. If you're ready to spend $10K minimum on a divorce, spending a few hundred bucks on coaching is a drop in the bucket, particularly if you can avoid the $10K plus support going forward. They are much better than IC's because they are solution based and deal with troubled relationships all day long. I was extremely skeptical before I did it, I only bought one call. After that I bought 3 more, then 2 more individual, so I should have just bought the 7. Best money I ever spent, they know their stuff -- try it.

2) Marriage Counseling: I know you tried one IC and it didn't really work for you. I tried several before I found a good one. It's very important that you find one who is solution based and who is trained in couples therapy. Even if you just see them by yourself, don't go to a generalist. See an MC by yourself. If you want to go with W, go see them by yourself first, paint the whole scene from your perspective, and explain what you think W's perspective is. See what the therapist has to say, see if they "get" W. Before you bring W, explain what you want from the joint session, and understand what the MC's approach is going to be.

My W was very resistant to MC and still is. That said, you and she will both say things in front of the MC that you will not say to each other. Also, MC will not let you off the hook as easily and are skilled in getting you both to spill it.

I definitely wouldn't go see a lawyer until you have found a good MC first. They really can help, but they *must* be solution-based. I tried working with ones that aren't, and it doesn't help. They focus on problems and how you feel about them, and how your childhood created those problems and that doesn't get you anywhere. You need to know what to do *now* to address the issues, and how to deal with them going forward. Knowing where they came from really doesn't help.

Put a date in your calendar for 8 weeks from now to visit the lawyer so you have a plan, but take a detour to a coach or MC first. I would actually recommend a coach AND an MC. You've really got nothing to lose and a huge messy divorce to save yourself from.

Accuray
_________________________
Married 18, Together 20
M: 45, W: 47, D: 15, S: 13, D: 9
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11
Start Reconcile: 8/15/11
ILYBINILWY (again) 7/12
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014

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#2217301 - 01/30/12 06:24 PM (NA) Re: (NA) Re: Not sure of next step [Re: Accuray]
Accuray Offline
Member

Registered: 07/20/11
Posts: 2088
BTW, what has your W been saying lately? Have you discussed the lack of sex recently? Its very odd that she would want you to take her to Italy if you haven't been discussing your relationship longer term, do you think she was testing you?

What do you think is going on with W?

Did you read "The Married Man Sex Life Primer"? I know you asked me what I thought, what did you think? I will say it inspired me to join Weight Watchers for Men online and to buy "Power 90" and start working out. If nothing else I got that out of it.

Accuray
_________________________
Married 18, Together 20
M: 45, W: 47, D: 15, S: 13, D: 9
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11
Start Reconcile: 8/15/11
ILYBINILWY (again) 7/12
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014

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#2217516 - 01/31/12 02:39 PM (NA) Re: (NA) Re: Not sure of next step [Re: Accuray]
Shaky Offline
Member

Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 67
Loc: Hillsboro,Or.
Accuray-

Hey thanks for getting back to me. I was really down yesterday, all that I could think of was I just want some resolution. I know this takes time but I cannot wait another six months and be in this same sitch.

It seems lately she is talking a lot about the future and me being in it. Too me I feel I just give and give and get nothing back and just makes me frustrated.

I know she wants me to talk more, I really bottle up things that bother me and eventually blow a gasket.

I was lying in bed last night and finally had to get some things off my chest.

I asked how she was feeling lately about us. She said better. I then said I'm not doing good at all. I feel like I'm trying and getting nothing in return. My love tank is empty and need to know if you want to work this out. She said she does. I said action speaks louder than words.

She kept asking what I want her to do. She asked if I wanted to make love and I said no its not that I want to go slow and eventually we will know when its time. She is not ready I can see that. I can tell in her voice, she still has pain. I don't want to push the sex, I really want to start over. I've waited this long, I'm ok with going slow. I just need to have something to look forward too.

She said she is really worried that in 3 months it will go back to the old relationship and she doesn't want that. I said I know I agree. But it needs to be I give, you give, not me doing all the work. She said she will try. I really don't understand what is so complicated.

I asked if she wanted to seperate. There was a big NO and said she is willing to work on things together. I said I know we both need to change so we can more forward.

I asked about marriage counseling. I really don't see it helping much, she agreed. I know what I need to do. She said she is really happy how I'm doing with the kids. They love me and she can really tell. She said the kids are the most important thing in her life.

I said I know but I want to be included also. We decided to go to marriage counseling once a month. It was a good talk, maybe an hour and we cuddled and hugged for awhile.

I did read "The married Man Sex Life Primer", I thought it was pretty good. Laughed at a lot of the suggestions and was inspired to start eating better and running more. I've been really consistent with going to the gym to lift but not as good on doing cardio. Only way to run for me is getting up really early or I won't do it.

I'm about half way through "Sex starved marriage" and I'd really like the w to read it. Do you think this is a good idea?

About Italy, I don't think she was testing me, I truly think she wants to go and I will think more about it but it seems like a lot to ask with how I feel right now.

Will hold off on the lawyer, I probably won't need to go down that road. I would like to do some research on my rights. Will see if anything is available online. I'm in Oregon, I've heard its not near as bad as California for divorce.

Shaky
_________________________
M 42
W 41
S 10
D 7
M 15 Years
T 20 Years
Divorce busted

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#2217570 - 01/31/12 04:30 PM (NA) Re: (NA) Re: Not sure of next step [Re: Shaky]
Accuray Offline
Member

Registered: 07/20/11
Posts: 2088
That's awesome my friend, GOOD FOR YOU! Let's inventory progress:

-- She doesn't want to separate
-- She wants things to work out
-- She offered to ML
-- She complimented your progress
-- She said she's willing to "try" doing some work
-- She's talking longer term with you in the picture

Obviously not the goal line until you feel better, but definitely lined up in the right direction.

You told her you want to see some effort from her. Did you talk about what that looks like? You need to be specific or she's going to miss. What do you want her to do / say specifically?

One concept my DB coach introduced me to is the relationship wheel. You rate how you're feeling across a range of elements -- parenting, living situation, money, romance, etc. You each put it on a 10 point scale and then share and discuss your answers. You can Google for the categories, there are many versions of it. How you do it is key:

First, if something is a 7, you explain why it's better than a 6. This is important, it highlights the positive and gives you credit for what's going well. It's tempting to skip that step -- don't. Second, you ask what would need to happen for it to be an 8. Don't shoot for 9 or 10, just one number higher. Stay away from feelings -- "what would I/we/you be doing if this were an 8?" Then, see if you can set a goal to get there and check back in. If you do that for a couple months you'll be able to see and recognize progress, so she'll feel less fear of backsliding. If backsliding does start to occur, you have a mechanism to catch it right away.

Your W is afraid of relapsing or going back to where you were. This exercise can help to treat that fear by demonstrating progress and helping you to set reasonable and attainable goals.

WRT the MC, definitely do the selection process yourself -- interview them. They must say the keyword "solution based". I also asked them if they considered themselves marriage friendly and in what situations they would advocate divorce or separation. Go by yourself first and figure out if it's going to work for both of you before you bring W. If you're going to go once per month, try doing a "double session" (2 hours) to start, one hour is not enough.

I still recommend the DB coach for where you are right now, just try one call, there is a coupon on Facebook for a discount on the DB page. I worked with Cheryl.

Originally Posted By: Shaky
I'm about half way through "Sex starved marriage" and I'd really like the w to read it. Do you think this is a good idea?


Yes, I think it's an excellent idea. The book does a better job of explaining how you feel and why than you can do. It's not a good idea with a WAW, but if she says she wants to reconcile, then that is a great thing to do. You know my W doesn't like to be asked to do anything, and that's the one thing she did agree to do that made the most difference to our piecing is read that book. Your W may feel that "no sex" isn't that big a deal and that you can serve yourself and that's fine. The book does an excellent job explaining why that's not true and that it's a critical big deal.

The issue of the book is the title -- that's going to be a turn off as it can read like an accusation. I explained to my W that it was really a relationship book with a provocative title and explained MWD's definition of "sex starved": that there is a "desire gap" that bothers the HD partner. That's it. If you ML 3 times per week and you want it 5 and that bothers you, you have an SSM.

What I really liked about the book is the description of cycles that SSM causes. When you are turned down for sex you feel deep rejection which leads to resentment. Resentment leads to emotional withdrawal, and when you do that, W doesn't get her needs met for connection / communication / talking, etc. When she isn't getting those needs met, she's less inclined to ML and down the drain you go. It's a self-reinforcing negative cycle.

The book talks about the fact that you can get that to spin the other way. If you meet her needs even when you don't ML, she's more likely to be accommodating. If she provides ML when you want it even when she doesn't, you're more likely to provide for her needs, and you start spinning in a positive direction.

That concept applies to many areas of the relationship beyond sex, it's a "pay it forward" type mentality.

Shaky, I'm really happy for you, that's almost the best discussion you could have had with W based on how you're feeling. If you can afford it, consider working on planning that trip. It will give you something to work on together, look forward to, and anticipate. That can't hurt right now.

Accuray
_________________________
Married 18, Together 20
M: 45, W: 47, D: 15, S: 13, D: 9
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11
Start Reconcile: 8/15/11
ILYBINILWY (again) 7/12
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014

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#2217676 - 01/31/12 10:43 PM (NA) Re: (NA) Re: Not sure of next step [Re: Accuray]
Shaky Offline
Member

Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 67
Loc: Hillsboro,Or.
You know Accuray you have been a big help, I owe you big time.

It's funny because the title is the only reason I didn't want to ask her to read "Sex Starved Marriage", just sounds like I'm accusing her of holding out which I'm not. It really explains how I feel and why ML is important for everyone.

I wouldn't say my marriage has ever been sex starved. She never said no in the past. Only complaint I had was I wanted her to initiate more. If she has been drinking she would almost always be all over me, which I liked. She also was pretty rough, which is kinda fun once in a while.

I like your idea of relationship wheel. I will write that out and it will be something we can work on.

Also need to go over money issue's as she thinks I'm all secretive about that, which I'm not. I would actually like her to take over paying the bills with my income help if she is willing. Not sure how we have kept our finances separate all these years but I'm ready to combine them.

I've learned that for whatever reason she thinks I'm going to leave her hanging after 15 years and wants to make sure I'm going to be around for the next 15. Would have been easier to just get me a book to read if she can't express her feelings but whatever I needed to make a few changes anyway. You know I can tell her how sexy she is and she still doesn't believe me. I hope she can work on that with the counselor. Well maybe not then she would figure out she is a 9 and I'm a 7, lol.

Any other news on your sitch?
_________________________
M 42
W 41
S 10
D 7
M 15 Years
T 20 Years
Divorce busted

Top
#2217682 - 01/31/12 10:59 PM (NA) Re: (NA) Re: Not sure of next step [Re: Shaky]
Accuray Offline
Member

Registered: 07/20/11
Posts: 2088
One suggestion on finances, we keep joint and separate accounts. Money in joint is for household, kids, etc. Money in personal accounts is no questions asked. Works beautifully. Nothing new on my front other than starting a new exercise program and joined online weight watchers. I'm 6' 235 and would like to get down to 200 or better. I'm making friends with hunger and discomfort as they say.

Good luck Shaky, looks like you turned the corner. Have W read SSM and explain that its not meant as a complaint.

Accuray
_________________________
Married 18, Together 20
M: 45, W: 47, D: 15, S: 13, D: 9
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11
Start Reconcile: 8/15/11
ILYBINILWY (again) 7/12
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014

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#2224130 - 02/22/12 08:48 AM (NA) Re: (NA) Re: Not sure of next step [Re: Accuray]
Shaky Offline
Member

Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 67
Loc: Hillsboro,Or.
I'm stuck, need some advice.

I'm at a crossroad and not sure how to proceed. When wife came to bed tonight she seemed on edge.

First thing she asked me is if I loved her. I said of coarse I love you. She asked if I was happy, I said most of the time. She asked me why don't I talk to her. I said we talk everyday, what do you mean. She said yes we talk about our day and general stuff but not about us. I didn't have an answer.

She is really in a funk. She said she hates her job, hates her body, pretty much hates everything, I'm sure I'm in there somewhere but she didn't say that.

I'm trying to be there for her but I don't know what to do. I can't fix what she is going through.

We have been going out on a lot of dates. Lunch dates, dinner dates, sometimes just the two of us, sometimes with friends. Went bowling last weekend, haven't done that in months.

For Valentines day I sent a dozen roses and a balloon that says I love you. I have never sent flowers to her work. She was so excited she called me crying thanking me for the flowers. She took a picture and posted on Facebook.

She has been trying to get closer but it is awkward because I don't want to escalate the intimacy, I told her I would wait to make love when she is ready. Well, we are going on 7 months now and she is still on lockdown. I don't think she could be any farther away on our king size bed.

I'm going with the flow and this flow is slow.

No matter how much stuff I buy her or how much of my time I spend with her she acts like its just not enough. Is this normal? Why is she being so selfish?

I sit back and think maybe I should just throw up the white flag and surrender.

Do I need to kick it up a notch and say I'm not in charge of your happiness? You need to figure out this crisis on your own and then move into another bedroom and just detach and let her go.

If I do that she will see that as me not caring about her and at this moment it is all about her.

Shaky
_________________________
M 42
W 41
S 10
D 7
M 15 Years
T 20 Years
Divorce busted

Top
#2225871 - 02/28/12 09:41 PM (NA) Re: (NA) Re: Not sure of next step [Re: Shaky]
Shaky Offline
Member

Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 67
Loc: Hillsboro,Or.
Well things are going much better. Just when I was ready to move into the spare bedroom.

Went to marriage counseling last Wednesday and I talked a lot about how I feel. We are taking it slow but at least I feel she is making an effort. I told her I was ready to let her go to figure out what she needs.

I can officially say divorce is busted. She has made it clear she doesn't want a divorce or separation.

During the counseling appt. I made huge points by saying I feel more in love now with my W than when she gave me the ILYNILWY 7 months ago.

This has been the hardest time in my marriage of 15 years but I really do feel it will be worth it. To not feel loved really does a number on you and it was really hard to say I was ready to let her go.

I feel fortunate that she was willing to wait for me to make a few changes and not just get the ball rolling on the divorce like I have read here a bunch of times.

Good luck to everyone, I hope to read about more stories where couples work it out.

Shaky
_________________________
M 42
W 41
S 10
D 7
M 15 Years
T 20 Years
Divorce busted

Top
#2225957 - 02/29/12 07:50 AM (NA) Re: (NA) Re: Not sure of next step [Re: Shaky]
Accuray Offline
Member

Registered: 07/20/11
Posts: 2088
Wow, nice turnaround Shaky, that's awesome! Congratulations, I hope you get the fairy tale ending.

I've felt like you have a few times but it's been up and down.

Originally Posted By: Shaky
No matter how much stuff I buy her or how much of my time I spend with her she acts like its just not enough. Is this normal? Why is she being so selfish?


There are lots of ways to explain this. Basically, buying her stuff doesn't matter that much. Once in a while great, but too much and it wipes out the benefits. Same with time, etc. Things too easily gained are not valued.

A couple good books I read you may want to check out: "The Solo Partner" (out of print, have to hunt around) and "The Passion Trap". Those will explain the dynamic that giving her what she asks for doesn't work.

I'm really happy for you my friend.

Accuray
_________________________
Married 18, Together 20
M: 45, W: 47, D: 15, S: 13, D: 9
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11
Start Reconcile: 8/15/11
ILYBINILWY (again) 7/12
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014

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#2240460 - 04/24/12 04:15 PM (NA) Re: (NA) Re: Not sure of next step [Re: Accuray]
Shaky Offline
Member

Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 67
Loc: Hillsboro,Or.
Update:

I feel really good with how things are moving along now.

We are still going to marriage counseling once a month but honestly I'm not sure if it is necessary anymore.

I feel very fortunate to have found this board because just reading other stories was the biggest help while I was in limbo on how to act around w that wanted space. I was willing to wait about a year for w and that was only because I read 1 month for every year married and I know over the 15 years I've been a decent husband.

I still don't understand exactly why all this happened but I know that if someone pulls out the ILYBNILWY card you better find out if your w is chatting it up with another guy.

After about 9 months my w finally admitted having feelings for one of my friends. I still to this day am good friends with this guy and I'm 100% sure he wasn't trying to make the moves on my w. He was just being a nice guy that gave my wife way to much attention which after a while lead her to the ILYBNILWY speach.

In marriage counseling she has said if there was one thing she could take back was the day of the bomb. She said she was justifying in her mind at that time divorce was the best answer. Willing to just throw away 15 years of marriage and start over. That is a powerful drug: Infatuation

I've made plenty of changes for me and my w comments that she really likes how I have grown.

Good luck to everyone I truly hope more people can work things out as I'm certain that the grass isn't greener with the next relationship. Probably just going to deal with different problems.

My current goals are going out on dates just the two of us without the kids, making sure I keep her love tank full and the biggest one is communication. Also asked w to read the (Sex starved marriage) as I believe its the best relationship book I have read. I had to explain to her its not that I'm complaining about the sex more about how men and women are different when it comes to intimacy.

Shaky
_________________________
M 42
W 41
S 10
D 7
M 15 Years
T 20 Years
Divorce busted

Top
#2240467 - 04/24/12 04:39 PM (NA) Re: (NA) Re: Not sure of next step [Re: Shaky]
RoRoinMD Offline
Member

Registered: 01/17/12
Posts: 871
Thanks Shaky for the update. Good news for those of us still in limbo helps SO much. So glad you and your wife are doing well.
_________________________
Me:34
H:38
SS:19 - lives in NC with his mom
M:3
Bomb #1: 1/3/12 - We're not compatible. I want out.
Bomb #2: 1/12/12 - Found out about EA/PA
H moves out 10/2/12

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#2240469 - 04/24/12 04:43 PM (NA) Re: (NA) Re: Not sure of next step [Re: RoRoinMD]
MrBond Offline
Member

Registered: 06/18/08
Posts: 10321
Does your W have interaction with this friend of yours?
_________________________
M-43 W-40
2D - 9 and 5

Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet a new life.

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#2240478 - 04/24/12 04:58 PM Re: (NA) Re: (NA) Re: Not sure of next step [Re: Shaky]
YankeeCandle Offline
Member

Registered: 02/26/12
Posts: 335
That is so inspiring. Thank you for sharing your story. smile

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#2240489 - 04/24/12 05:55 PM Re: (NA) Re: (NA) Re: Not sure of next step [Re: YankeeCandle]
Accuray Offline
Member

Registered: 07/20/11
Posts: 2088
Awesome Shaky, I think we have several parallels and I hope to find the peace and satisfaction that you've found. Good for you!

Accuray
_________________________
Married 18, Together 20
M: 45, W: 47, D: 15, S: 13, D: 9
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11
Start Reconcile: 8/15/11
ILYBINILWY (again) 7/12
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014

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#2240504 - 04/24/12 06:36 PM Re: (NA) Re: (NA) Re: Not sure of next step [Re: MrBond]
Shaky Offline
Member

Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 67
Loc: Hillsboro,Or.
Originally Posted By: MrBond
Does your W have interaction with this friend of yours?


Yes, but very little now, at the time he was stopping by almost everyday to hang out with me after work. I do a lot of really cool car projects as a hobby. I explained to him that w and I were having problems and needed some time without him around to work on our marriage.

I was really way to trusting, instead of speaking up when it seemed inappropriate I just let the resentment stew inside and eventually blew a gasket. I would say about 2 weeks later the bomb hit.

I'm 42 and this friend of mine was 26 and looks up to my w and I more like his parents.

I really don't know but she started getting really secretive about her phone which was bothering me. I never snooped on her phone but boy did I want too.

My w was the one that asked to go to marriage counseling and the first few sessions were really hard. It really seemed as though she had made up her mind that I was the problem but we worked through everything and I'm really looking for us to be best friends again, seems as though she didn't feel loved and I felt like I was just an ATM machine for everything. Lots of resentment on both of us. No fighting is still no communication.

You must figure out what makes your w/h tick or your destined to failure.

Shaky
_________________________
M 42
W 41
S 10
D 7
M 15 Years
T 20 Years
Divorce busted

Top
#2240509 - 04/24/12 06:54 PM Re: (NA) Re: (NA) Re: Not sure of next step [Re: Shaky]
sandi2 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/27/07
Posts: 10714
I hope you come back, b/c I'm concerned about a couple of things. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad to hear the two of you are still together, but if she has any contact with your friend, whatsoever, the marriage is not on solid ground. You said a mouthful when you said this infatuation is addictive!! Also, don,t be so fast to give that friend a free pass. Even if he is completely innocent (what does she say about it?) he needs to stay away from both of you. How long has it been since her last contact (seeing him from a distance, or with you counts).

Have you talked to your friend? Did he tell you he was just trying to be nice.......or is more that you just can't believe he would come on to your wife?

Not having sex not always mean there is an affair, but (unless there is a physical problem), it does mean something is seriously wrong in the relationship. So my next question would be.....is she having sex with you? Is she kissing you passionately?
_________________________
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#2240524 - 04/24/12 08:41 PM Re: (NA) Re: (NA) Re: Not sure of next step [Re: sandi2]
Shaky Offline
Member

Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 67
Loc: Hillsboro,Or.


Have you talked to your friend? Did he tell you he was just trying to be nice.......or is more that you just can't believe he would come on to your wife?

Yes I have talked to my friend. He said he was talking to my wife about his girl problems to get a women's perspective. Guy's suck at reading women, end of story. [/color]

Not having sex not always mean there is an affair, but (unless there is a physical problem), it does mean something is seriously wrong in the relationship. So my next question would be.....is she having sex with you? Is she kissing you passionately?

Yes she is back to kissing me passionately, oral and having sex. I will be honest and say the sex part has only been recently. We have been going very slow to rebuild the relationship. I let her set the pace and would only reciprocate. We had a few weeks of passionate kissing, touching, back rubs, etc before any sex. After approx. 9 months this last Sunday she asked me if I was ready to make love to her and was so caught off guard that I actually said no. It was easier to just remind myself it wasn't going to happen. It was really intense in a good way.

I'm going to try and let her set the pace for now and see where that goes. Ideally once a week would be great but every other week is fine. [color:#000066]


[/quote]
_________________________
M 42
W 41
S 10
D 7
M 15 Years
T 20 Years
Divorce busted

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#2240525 - 04/24/12 08:46 PM Re: (NA) Re: (NA) Re: Not sure of next step [Re: Shaky]
Shaky Offline
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Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 67
Loc: Hillsboro,Or.
Sorry Sandi I still can't seem to get the quoting thing right. I will keep working on it.

I will try preview mode next, lol.
_________________________
M 42
W 41
S 10
D 7
M 15 Years
T 20 Years
Divorce busted

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#2240611 - 04/25/12 06:53 AM Re: (NA) Re: (NA) Re: Not sure of next step [Re: Shaky]
sandi2 Offline
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Registered: 06/27/07
Posts: 10714
I'm so glad you wrote back. It it vital that she not be around OM b/c that will cause her feelings to stay confused about you. He doesn't need to talk to her or go to the house to see either of you. If he's really a friend, he will agree to do this.

Do you feel the MC has contributed to things being where they are now?
_________________________
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!

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#2240654 - 04/25/12 11:30 AM Re: (NA) Re: (NA) Re: Not sure of next step [Re: sandi2]
Shaky Offline
Member

Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 67
Loc: Hillsboro,Or.
This little EA she had was really short lived and only a small part of what happened back in August. I felt it got inappropriate when they were watching movies pretty late on worknights. I get up early so I would go to bed. My issue was not speaking up. When I did, sh!t hit the fan.

My wife was going through more of a MLC. Identity crisis, new job 3 years ago, much more stress. She didn't feel loved and didn't speak up about it until MC.

Yes, MC has helped us communicate much better. She is on board to keep working on the marriage.

I really don't agree that my friend can't be around. He is a 27 year old guy. He isn't interested in my 41 year old wife. He dates young girls.

It's kinda like if you asked me would I be interested in a 25 year old. Well yeah she looks great but that's where it ends. Nothing really in common.

Obviously I'm the one going through this whole ordeal, its been crazy but Jeff isn't the problem.

Shaky
_________________________
M 42
W 41
S 10
D 7
M 15 Years
T 20 Years
Divorce busted

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#2240658 - 04/25/12 11:39 AM Re: (NA) Re: (NA) Re: Not sure of next step [Re: Shaky]
gr8 day 2B alive Offline
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Registered: 11/03/09
Posts: 1544
Loc: Philly Burbs
Quote:
I really don't agree that my friend can't be around. He is a 27 year old guy. He isn't interested in my 41 year old wife. He dates young girls.


All it takes is for some other guy to validate her feelings and just listen to her and there could be an attraction, regardless if HE says otherwise.
Be very cautious. Age is just a number, my ex has gone out with a 24YO, she is 36.
You have been warned.
_________________________
Bomb 8/09. Brief piecing 12/10. D-2/12
Two incredible kids D9,S6 Leading new life!
“Success is not to be pursued; it is to be attracted by the person we become."

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#2240669 - 04/25/12 11:59 AM Re: (NA) Re: (NA) Re: Not sure of next step [Re: gr8 day 2B alive]
Shaky Offline
Member

Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 67
Loc: Hillsboro,Or.
Originally Posted By: gr8 day 2B alive
Quote:
I really don't agree that my friend can't be around. He is a 27 year old guy. He isn't interested in my 41 year old wife. He dates young girls.


All it takes is for some other guy to validate her feelings and just listen to her and there could be an attraction, regardless if HE says otherwise.
Be very cautious. Age is just a number, my ex has gone out with a 24YO, she is 36.
You have been warned.

I get it but I'm that guy, I wasn't 9 months ago but I get it now. I've been with my wife a long time, relationships all have their ups and downs. It has been a huge eye opener working through this sitch and each day is better so I'm comfortable where I'm at.
_________________________
M 42
W 41
S 10
D 7
M 15 Years
T 20 Years
Divorce busted

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#2240782 - 04/25/12 07:25 PM Re: (NA) Re: (NA) Re: Not sure of next step [Re: Shaky]
sandi2 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/27/07
Posts: 10714
Just trying to warn you, shaky. I have known at least four women who hooked up with men half their age. Age has nothing to do with it.

The fact you are calling this a little ea, and thinking it won't hurt to let the younger man come over.....is you sticking your head in the sand. They will keep things covered up better from now on. She might even have good intentions right now, but she's "addicted" and in spite of what things appear, she has not had enough time to really be strong enough for you to let down your guard so quickly and invite trouble to come back into your home.

I hope you are right......but is it worth the gamble?
_________________________
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!

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#2240801 - 04/25/12 08:44 PM Re: (NA) Re: (NA) Re: Not sure of next step [Re: sandi2]
Accuray Offline
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Registered: 07/20/11
Posts: 2088
I've been following this discussion with some interest. Here's my opinion for what its worth. To some degree, not banishing OM is a show of strength and high value. Shaky believes his changes are significant enough and their communication is improved enough that he chooses to trust his wife and let the cards fall where they may.

Banishing OM is like snooping, its playing defensively and to some degree controlling. If he needs to continue to worry, then he's not doing the things he needs to do to ensure he's the best H possible.

I thought about making sure that W would have no contact with OM through any number of means. Where I landed, however, is that I can't control that and trying to monitor it will make me nuts and put me in a one-down position.

I would rather operate from a position of high value, know that I'm being the best husband and father I can be, and not worry about it. If she does it again I will eventually find out and I'm gone, simple as that, and I will not be inclined to be amicable through divorce.

From my perspective, it is Shaky's wife's responsibility to declare no contact or ask OM to stay away, and ideally she would do that out of respect for Shaky.

Maybe I'm being naive, but it has helped me to find peace. My attitude is "W you make your choices and then I will make mine"

Accuray
_________________________
Married 18, Together 20
M: 45, W: 47, D: 15, S: 13, D: 9
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11
Start Reconcile: 8/15/11
ILYBINILWY (again) 7/12
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014

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#2240868 - 04/26/12 12:47 AM Re: (NA) Re: (NA) Re: Not sure of next step [Re: Accuray]
Truegritter Offline
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Posts: 2686
You can lock up the liquor cabinet but if the lock is broken you must be prepared to mourn your spoils at the hands of the interlopers...

And find a safer place to keep you whiskey.
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#2240940 - 04/26/12 11:17 AM Re: (NA) Re: (NA) Re: Not sure of next step [Re: Accuray]
Shaky Offline
Member

Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 67
Loc: Hillsboro,Or.
Originally Posted By: Accuray
I've been following this discussion with some interest. Here's my opinion for what its worth. To some degree, not banishing OM is a show of strength and high value. Shaky believes his changes are significant enough and their communication is improved enough that he chooses to trust his wife and let the cards fall where they may.

Banishing OM is like snooping, its playing defensively and to some degree controlling. If he needs to continue to worry, then he's not doing the things he needs to do to ensure he's the best H possible.

I thought about making sure that W would have no contact with OM through any number of means. Where I landed, however, is that I can't control that and trying to monitor it will make me nuts and put me in a one-down position.

I would rather operate from a position of high value, know that I'm being the best husband and father I can be, and not worry about it. If she does it again I will eventually find out and I'm gone, simple as that, and I will not be inclined to be amicable through divorce.

From my perspective, it is Shaky's wife's responsibility to declare no contact or ask OM to stay away, and ideally she would do that out of respect for Shaky.

Maybe I'm being naive, but it has helped me to find peace. My attitude is "W you make your choices and then I will make mine"

Accuray


This is exactly how I see it. If I don't have enough confidence in myself and trust in my wife I believe I might as well just divorce her.

At least this way she is not snooping around behind my back. I know how I contributed to why she felt the way she did and will try much harder to meet her needs.

I will trust that my wife made a huge mistake and completely lost her mind while the dopamine kicked in and paved the way
to our breakdown. Note: I'm not totally blaming her for what happened but I'm only taking 50% of the blame.

Shaky
_________________________
M 42
W 41
S 10
D 7
M 15 Years
T 20 Years
Divorce busted

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#2243254 - 05/06/12 03:16 PM Re: (NA) Re: (NA) Re: Not sure of next step [Re: Shaky]
sandi2 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/27/07
Posts: 10714
let us know how that works out for you.
_________________________
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!

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#2243259 - 05/06/12 04:02 PM Re: (NA) Re: (NA) Re: Not sure of next step [Re: Shaky]
Starsky309 Offline
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Registered: 10/11/10
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You're both being naive, in my opinion.


Starsky
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At the end of every hard-earned day, people gotta find some reason to believe. (Bruce Springsteen)

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#2243262 - 05/06/12 04:23 PM Re: (NA) Re: (NA) Re: Not sure of next step [Re: Starsky309]
~ kd ~ Offline
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Registered: 03/20/11
Posts: 4866
Loc: Canoe'k-land
I just wanted to chime in here because we all have our own choices on how we want to handle an OP.

Personally, I stand firmly in the middle and say:

"I will make my choices and cannot control that of another, including whether my S will take up with an OP. All I ask for is respect. Choose what you want to choose, but respect me (and respect everyone) enough to not hide it if there IS an OP."

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#2243283 - 05/06/12 07:03 PM Re: (NA) Re: (NA) Re: Not sure of next step [Re: ~ kd ~]
zig Offline
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Registered: 02/21/12
Posts: 1855
Loc: KS
so if your WAS IS hiding the OP - what do you do about it?
_________________________
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"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is"


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#2243286 - 05/06/12 09:03 PM Re: (NA) Re: (NA) Re: Not sure of next step [Re: zig]
~ kd ~ Offline
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Registered: 03/20/11
Posts: 4866
Loc: Canoe'k-land
That is the thing, there is nothing that one can do, one way or the other...

For me, I would never ask someone to make a choice of me over someone else. If they do not actively make that choice without assertion, then I can't believe they are truly committing. I would always have a question in the back of my mind if they only chose out of fear, rather than out of desire.

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#2243288 - 05/06/12 09:44 PM Re: (NA) Re: (NA) Re: Not sure of next step [Re: zig]
Starsky309 Offline
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Registered: 10/11/10
Posts: 4350
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: zig
so if your WAS IS hiding the OP - what do you do about it?


There is plenty you can do. Some of which we can't mention here on this forum, but it all comes down to what your own boundaries are. Personally, I am a "I will not share my wife with another man guy." But that's just me.


Starsky
_________________________
At the end of every hard-earned day, people gotta find some reason to believe. (Bruce Springsteen)

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#2243301 - 05/06/12 10:32 PM Re: Not sure of next step [Re: Starsky309]
~ kd ~ Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/11
Posts: 4866
Loc: Canoe'k-land
Originally Posted By: Starsky309
Originally Posted By: zig
so if your WAS IS hiding the OP - what do you do about it?


There is plenty you can do. Some of which we can't mention here on this forum, but it all comes down to what your own boundaries are. Personally, I am a "I will not share my wife with another man guy." But that's just me.


Starsky


yup...

No sharesies...

pull it back a bit... the only difference between Starsky and I (and I completely respect his choices that led to his R) is a slightly different language and posture at the point of "the question[/i]" of choosing.

Starsky, your W admitted to the OP, correct?

I think when the OP is in the open, requesting a choice with consequences is appropriate.

When the OP is not in the open or there is denial of an A (especially if it is only an EA)... its not a simple matter of asking someone to make a choice of no contact with a [b]suspected
OP...

I am very confident that my W had an EA with OM1 and OM2, even though it may not have become a PA with OM1 (OM2 is gay and is with a partner; doesn't prove anything, just a fact). With OM3, I believe it is also just an EA, even though my W very likely does not view it as such because she actually is unable to be (consciously) emotionally available with anyone at this time...

So if there is overt denial (lying) or covert denial of the A, then requesting no contact might be similar to requesting no contact of an enabler whom they consider (and otherwise would be) a BFF.

IF my W were to admit that there was an OP, I would not ask the question. I would be gone...

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#2243311 - 05/06/12 11:02 PM Re: Not sure of next step [Re: ~ kd ~]
Accuray Offline
Member

Registered: 07/20/11
Posts: 2088
Originally Posted By: kaffe diem
I would always have a question in the back of my mind if they only chose out of fear, rather than out of desire.


I read about this at length and discussed it with my IC. The conclusion I drew was that your spouse cannot separate the person from the package they represent. Therefore, you can never be confident that they chose you out of desire, and you have to be okay with that

Accuray
_________________________
Married 18, Together 20
M: 45, W: 47, D: 15, S: 13, D: 9
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11
Start Reconcile: 8/15/11
ILYBINILWY (again) 7/12
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014

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#2243361 - 05/07/12 09:21 AM Re: Not sure of next step [Re: ~ kd ~]
Starsky309 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/11/10
Posts: 4350
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: Kaffe Diem
Originally Posted By: Starsky309
Originally Posted By: zig
so if your WAS IS hiding the OP - what do you do about it?


There is plenty you can do. Some of which we can't mention here on this forum, but it all comes down to what your own boundaries are. Personally, I am a "I will not share my wife with another man guy." But that's just me.


Starsky


yup...

No sharesies...

pull it back a bit... the only difference between Starsky and I (and I completely respect his choices that led to his R) is a slightly different language and posture at the point of "the question[/i]" of choosing.

Starsky, your W admitted to the OP, correct?

I think when the OP is in the open, requesting a choice with consequences is appropriate.

When the OP is not in the open or there is denial of an A (especially if it is only an EA)... its not a simple matter of asking someone to make a choice of no contact with a [b]suspected
OP...

I am very confident that my W had an EA with OM1 and OM2, even though it may not have become a PA with OM1 (OM2 is gay and is with a partner; doesn't prove anything, just a fact). With OM3, I believe it is also just an EA, even though my W very likely does not view it as such because she actually is unable to be (consciously) emotionally available with anyone at this time...

So if there is overt denial (lying) or covert denial of the A, then requesting no contact might be similar to requesting no contact of an enabler whom they consider (and otherwise would be) a BFF.

IF my W were to admit that there was an OP, I would not ask the question. I would be gone...


Accu, I'm failing to see the distinction.

First, I'm not sure why you keep italicizing "just an EA," as any woman on this (or any other) forum will tell you, only us DAM's make that mistake. For a woman, sharing yourself emotionally with another is just as -- if not MORE -- meaningful, so us guys make the "just an EA" assessment at our peril.

Secondly, no, my wife did not admit to being anything more than "just friends" with her OM, and she continued lying to everyone -- me, our adult daughters, even her own parents -- about it so much that I finally had to do my "stop the deceit" re-confrontation with her, and threaten to share the evidence that I had about her affair with those people if she didn't come clean about it. My thinking was, "I may not be able to stop the affair, but I damned sure wasn't going to just sit here and have her LIE to everyone about it, and try to make ME out like I was crazy," when she and I both knew the nature of her relationship with OM, and she KNEW that I knew.

But even if that were not the case, I don't see where it makes a difference. When you say:

Quote:
When the OP is not in the open or there is denial of an A (especially if it is only an EA)... its not a simple matter of asking someone to make a choice of no contact with a suspected OP...
,

then the only difference is, whether or not you have PROOF, at which point I would say -- if it (an affair) really is a dealbreaker for you -- GET some.

Taking a passive, "there's nothing I can do" approach doesn't work. It enables the affair, it kills attraction, and it saps the betrayed spouse's emotional strength and self-esteem if allowed to continue, in my opinion.


Starsky
_________________________
At the end of every hard-earned day, people gotta find some reason to believe. (Bruce Springsteen)

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#2243363 - 05/07/12 09:27 AM Re: Not sure of next step [Re: Accuray]
Starsky309 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/11/10
Posts: 4350
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: Accuray
Originally Posted By: kaffe diem
I would always have a question in the back of my mind if they only chose out of fear, rather than out of desire.


I read about this at length and discussed it with my IC. The conclusion I drew was that your spouse cannot separate the person from the package they represent. Therefore, you can never be confident that they chose you out of desire, and you have to be okay with that

Accuray


I believe in two very basic premises, which framed my decision-making in my sitch, and continues to frame my advice to others:

1. Love is a decision; and

2. Affairs are addictions.


If you believe that, then you won't care about the whole "commitment-vs.-compliance" thing at the early stage -- you will want to try to end the affair and convince the wayward spouse to return to the marriage and work with you on it, together, understanding that the DESIRE may take a looong time to return. Months or even years, depending on the level of pre-affair marital dysfunction, as well as the depth and length of the emotional attachment of the affair partners.

People that say "I want her to WANT to return to the marriage" usually haven't studied much about affairs. They are HIGHLY ADDICTIVE, and your spouse isn't in any condition to want you right now. They're not going to just suddenly "come to their senses" and have strong feelings of desire for you as long as their is another man or woman in their head and heart.


Starsky
_________________________
At the end of every hard-earned day, people gotta find some reason to believe. (Bruce Springsteen)

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#2243382 - 05/07/12 11:11 AM Re: Not sure of next step [Re: Starsky309]
~ kd ~ Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/11
Posts: 4866
Loc: Canoe'k-land
psst... Starsky... it was me that used the "just" an EA quoting... grin

I thought your wife had admitted the OP. The reason I put emphasize on "just" is as a form of sarcasm. AFAIC, an A is an A but it seems frequently that people downplay an A if it hasn't been physical.

There isn't much of a distinction between what you would do and what I would do, except that while I realized I could forgive an A, I would not ask my W to choose between the OP and I. I would simply be gone. Shoot first, ask questions later.

While I believe that my W had an EA so I'd be hypocritical saying that I'd leave if there was an A (since I stood, for a while), I actually believe my W doesn't recognize an A when it is just emotional. I've met a lot of people in my life that claim that BFFs are not A's even if they interfere with the connection between two spouses.

My W doesn't appear to recognize an EA as an A AND... she believes that love is a choice... so for me, it's a double bind. She didn't have an A but she is choosing to not love me. That denial (of the A), wherever it comes from, has become the choice... addiction or not... in the same way that alcohol makes someone emotionally unavailable. I am sure that being an ACOA is the reason why I will not tolerate an A. I know that it is pointless to try to convince someone (or rationalize with them) that they have an addition.

Anyhow, that's the only real difference I know of between your sitch (Starsky) and mine. And I see that in Shaky's sitch. His W appears to not recognize that she is having an A. And while I've seen and do believe that strategic intervention can work... I don't know that it works with someone who is MLC. A spouse would have to first recognize that they ARE in MLC and then they would have to get THROUGH the MLC and THEN... they might understand or admit (to themselves, first) that they had an A.

On being passive aggressive on an A, like I said in my case that is probably due to my being an ACOA and the frustration that while SI CAN work... it is still the choice and responsibility of the A spouse to admit they "have a problem"... and second, I've seen so much damage due to domestic violence caused by infidelity... I just wouldn't go there...

So just offering my own take on dealing with an A, even if there was proof...

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#2243384 - 05/07/12 11:23 AM Re: Not sure of next step [Re: ~ kd ~]
~ kd ~ Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/11
Posts: 4866
Loc: Canoe'k-land
Actually, let me rephrase that: There IS a difference between what the two of us do in the event of an A. You pushed through it (and I do really applaud you for that and happy it worked for you) and I would walk away from it, no questions asked, it IS a deal breaker.

Would you do it again if your W relapsed (an honest, open question) or if you found yourself with someone else (for what ever reason, your M ended and you were with someone else)? Again, just asking...

Sorry Shaky if this feels like a hijack of your thread. I hope this discussion is helping you decide where you stand and what options you have to choose from.

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#2243385 - 05/07/12 11:26 AM Re: Not sure of next step [Re: ~ kd ~]
Starsky309 Offline
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Registered: 10/11/10
Posts: 4350
Loc: Florida
KD,

Thanks for the clarification. I am an ACOA myself, and it's amazing how it shapes your thinking on affairs, and those caught up in them. It's all tough stuff.


Starsky
_________________________
At the end of every hard-earned day, people gotta find some reason to believe. (Bruce Springsteen)

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#2243389 - 05/07/12 11:36 AM Re: Not sure of next step [Re: ~ kd ~]
Starsky309 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/11/10
Posts: 4350
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: Kaffe Diem
Actually, let me rephrase that: There IS a difference between what the two of us do in the event of an A. You pushed through it (and I do really applaud you for that and happy it worked for you) and I would walk away from it, no questions asked, it IS a deal breaker.

Would you do it again if your W relapsed (an honest, open question) or if you found yourself with someone else (for what ever reason, your M ended and you were with someone else)? Again, just asking...

Sorry Shaky if this feels like a hijack of your thread. I hope this discussion is helping you decide where you stand and what options you have to choose from.


It's always hard to know, ahead of time, what will be a "dealbreaker" and what won't. I don't have the data to back it up -- just anecdotal experience -- but I'd wager to say that 80-90% of people in marriages who have never been exposed to infidelity, would say it's an "absolute dealbreaker," and yet once faced with it, it's more like 50/50. It's why, as a sales manager, I never used to ask my female salespeople if they were going to come back to work after having a baby, because how can you possibly answer than question before you've met your child? I found that those that said "Oh, I'll definitely be coming back" would frequently change their minds, whereas those that said "I'll definitely be leaving the workforce and staying home with my child" usually stuck to that.

If my wife had another affair, I'd be 110% done -- dealbreaker. Not so much that I would feel that we couldn't get thru it -- we've shown now that we can -- but just "a" I wouldn't have it in me again, and "b" a serial adulterer is simply a boundary with me, in terms of what it says about the person (vs. a one-time "I really, really screwed up, and got in over my head and handled it poorly" sort of thing).

Starsky
_________________________
At the end of every hard-earned day, people gotta find some reason to believe. (Bruce Springsteen)

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#2243396 - 05/07/12 11:56 AM Re: Not sure of next step [Re: ~ kd ~]
Shaky Offline
Member

Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 67
Loc: Hillsboro,Or.


Sorry Shaky if this feels like a hijack of your thread. I hope this discussion is helping you decide where you stand and what options you have to choose from. [/quote]

No, it's all good to me as I value everyone's opinion.
_________________________
M 42
W 41
S 10
D 7
M 15 Years
T 20 Years
Divorce busted

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#2243483 - 05/07/12 08:19 PM Re: Not sure of next step [Re: Shaky]
Accuray Offline
Member

Registered: 07/20/11
Posts: 2088
Wow I missed a lot. Yes, Starsky, I would never categorize an EA as "just" an EA. I am a multiple EA survivor. If you have read the 15 stages of infidelity (or whatever the number is), the only difference between an EA and a PA is really the last two stages, which really isn't much. The damage comes in the emotional connection in either case, the physical side just drives the hurt deeper. Interestingly, my W had 2 "one-nighters" that didn't go all the way, then 2 long term EA's. The one-nighters are more painful in many ways because they are harder to rationalize.

I also agree with Starsky's perspective on the WAS "wanting" to be back in the marriage. They can decide to be back, but they can't make themselves "want" their LBS. It definitely hurts the LBS to feel like "the path of least resistance". The good part is that they're there, so you have a starting line. If you don't let the "easiest option" thing bother you too much you can put it in the rearview and try to build something better, IMO.

My W did not deny having inappropriate relationships, but she does not regret that she did it. She's sorry for how it made me feel, but she's not remorseful. In her rationalization, she was on a path to divorce me, had already detached, so it was okay for her to engage with someone new. Now she views it in the same context as a former boyfriend, or someone who she dated before we met. WAS logic is interesting in some ways and infuriating in others.

I'm still with Shaky, I don't think it's a matter of being naive. We're saying "I can't control W, if she chooses to re-engage in an affair, she's going to. I'm going to do the best I can to make sure the marriage is fulfilling enough to prevent that. If it's not enough, I trust that we'll discuss it next time before it comes to infidelity. If you cheat again, I'm gone."

I do think that W should go no contact with OM, but that's for her to decide and offer, not for Shaky to demand.

Accuray
_________________________
Married 18, Together 20
M: 45, W: 47, D: 15, S: 13, D: 9
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11
Start Reconcile: 8/15/11
ILYBINILWY (again) 7/12
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014

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#2243492 - 05/07/12 08:56 PM Re: Not sure of next step [Re: Accuray]
Starsky309 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/11/10
Posts: 4350
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: Accuray

I do think that W should go no contact with OM, but that's for her to decide and offer, not for Shaky to demand.

Accuray



He can't (and shouldn't) demand it (ULTIMATUM). He can (and SHOULD!) only say "I will not remain in this marriage if you continue the contact (BOUNDARY).


Starsky
_________________________
At the end of every hard-earned day, people gotta find some reason to believe. (Bruce Springsteen)

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#2243502 - 05/07/12 09:37 PM Re: Not sure of next step [Re: Starsky309]
vera be fierce Offline
Member

Registered: 04/23/12
Posts: 934
Originally Posted By: Starsky309

He can't (and shouldn't) demand it (ULTIMATUM). He can (and SHOULD!) only say "I will not remain in this marriage if you continue the contact (BOUNDARY).


Starsky


Thank you for distilling this concept down to this sentence. This is a constant struggle to remember for us rehabilitating controlling fixers.

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#2243504 - 05/07/12 09:45 PM Re: Not sure of next step [Re: Starsky309]
zig Offline
Member

Registered: 02/21/12
Posts: 1855
Loc: KS
wow - i missed a lot , too!

i guess while i was reading all your answers to my question and the discussion that ensued - i was hoping to get some practical advice that one could apply in their sitch - especially when dealing with mlc and an affair.

what happens when the A is known to selected persons by the WAS and not to others - is that usual - what does it say about the sitch and the WAS when they choose to only tell certain people - or is that a trivial detail that doesn't matter.

and what about the LBS - should they "support" that by not making it more public, or allow the WAS in their MLC to dictate who knows and doesn't know?

If you believe that, then you won't care about the whole "commitment-vs.-compliance" thing at the early stage -- you will want to try to end the affair and convince the wayward spouse to return to the marriage and work with you on it, together, understanding that the DESIRE may take a looong time to return

Starsky - couldn't this come across as pursuing big time? that's what i tried to do in the first couple of months - it didn't work, just made him more determined, it seemed.

i agree with you about affairs being highly addictive - because i have felt that myself when i had one during my first marriage.

i also like what you wrote about ultimatum versus boundary.

thanks for this discussion

shakey , hope you are doing well
zig
_________________________
me 46 H 38
M10yrs T 11
S10
BD ow 8/11
h filed 9/25/12


"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is"


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#2243507 - 05/07/12 09:50 PM Re: Not sure of next step [Re: Accuray]
zig Offline
Member

Registered: 02/21/12
Posts: 1855
Loc: KS
your spouse cannot separate the person from the package they represent

wow accuray - thanks for writing that - it put a whole new spin on how to view what the WAS is doing - it's not the person they are having the affair with per se that is the issue - it is what they represent. things like freedom, control, unconditional acceptance, fun, no history, beginning with a clean slate...

all phrases that h has said to me in discussing why he should keep going in that direction.

frankly, its actually less hurtful to look at it that way - because then one can not take it quite so personally, right? (a bit tongue incheek there, just to clarify!!!)
_________________________
me 46 H 38
M10yrs T 11
S10
BD ow 8/11
h filed 9/25/12


"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is"


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#2243510 - 05/07/12 09:58 PM Re: Not sure of next step [Re: zig]
Starsky309 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/11/10
Posts: 4350
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: zig

If you believe that, then you won't care about the whole "commitment-vs.-compliance" thing at the early stage -- you will want to try to end the affair and convince the wayward spouse to return to the marriage and work with you on it, together, understanding that the DESIRE may take a looong time to return

Starsky - couldn't this come across as pursuing big time? that's what i tried to do in the first couple of months - it didn't work, just made him more determined, it seemed.



I'm sorry, I'm not understanding. How is trying to bust up an affair even remotely considered "pursuing?" confused


Starsky
_________________________
At the end of every hard-earned day, people gotta find some reason to believe. (Bruce Springsteen)

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#2243513 - 05/07/12 10:01 PM Re: Not sure of next step [Re: zig]
~ kd ~ Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/11
Posts: 4866
Loc: Canoe'k-land
Originally Posted By: zig
what happens when the A is known to selected persons by the WAS and not to others - is that usual - what does it say about the sitch and the WAS when they choose to only tell certain people - or is that a trivial detail that doesn't matter.


There are any number of reasons why an A spouse might overtly hide an A or at best, expose the OP to only a select few the A spouse knows supports them.

MLC or not, no... it does not matter... MLC is not an excuse to have an A. In both cases, the A spouse must still be responsible for their choice to have an OP.

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#2243519 - 05/07/12 10:13 PM Re: Not sure of next step [Re: ~ kd ~]
~ kd ~ Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/11
Posts: 4866
Loc: Canoe'k-land
Zig, there is some really good conversations in the infidelity forum around your questions.

Many of us who have been around for a while have gone through these discussions as well as other, just as sensitive topics. And there are definitely two different, polar camps in many of these topics.

Some say expose the A, others say ignore the A. Some say confront the A partner, others say ignore the A.

In the end, MWD and the coaches and mods on this board strongly recommend not exposing an A.

And... in the end, we are all entitled to choose our path and do as we wish and be responsible for our actions.

Not to speak for Starsky, but I understand his position is to verbally state the boundary in no uncertain terms to the A spouse, and then the LBS is to move forward.

My personal position is to simply move forward without verbalizing, as my actions indicate my intentions and ultimately my boundaries.

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#2243542 - 05/07/12 10:53 PM Re: Not sure of next step [Re: ~ kd ~]
zig Offline
Member

Registered: 02/21/12
Posts: 1855
Loc: KS
thanks KD and star sky for your responses - they give me much to think about

i don't want to hijack shakey's thread and i do find that this is a very confusing area for me.

thanks for the advice - KD - i will go check out the threads on the infidelity forum - if any specific ones come to mind could you point them out to me please

i hope that this discussion helped other people too

thanks zig
_________________________
me 46 H 38
M10yrs T 11
S10
BD ow 8/11
h filed 9/25/12


"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is"


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#2243547 - 05/07/12 11:05 PM Re: Not sure of next step [Re: zig]
~ kd ~ Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/11
Posts: 4866
Loc: Canoe'k-land
lol... star sky... hahahahahaaa...


thank YOU for the laugh, zig... grin

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#2243556 - 05/07/12 11:37 PM Re: Not sure of next step [Re: ~ kd ~]
zig Offline
Member

Registered: 02/21/12
Posts: 1855
Loc: KS
glad to oblige - but it was completely unintended

those typos get me in a spot every once in a while - i'm still dealing with those "ditches" but now i'm watching out for them - literally and figuratively

sorry starsky (oooh i saw that - the devil in my computer tried to sneak star sky in again - if i had missed that it would have been the ditches thing all over again)
_________________________
me 46 H 38
M10yrs T 11
S10
BD ow 8/11
h filed 9/25/12


"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is"


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#2243613 - 05/08/12 09:17 AM Re: Not sure of next step [Re: Starsky309]
labug Offline
Member

Registered: 11/24/11
Posts: 8380
Loc: Sonoran Desert
I don't have the data to back it up -- just anecdotal experience --

Yay, Starsky, transparency!
_________________________
Me 57/H 58
M35 S24 S21
Bomb 3/11 Sep 3/11
Piecing 9/13 12/13 Reconciling

"We can make ourselves miserable, or we can make ourselves happy. The amount of work is the same"~Carlos Castenada

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#2243625 - 05/08/12 10:09 AM Re: Not sure of next step [Re: labug]
Starsky309 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/11/10
Posts: 4350
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: labug
I don't have the data to back it up -- just anecdotal experience --

Yay, Starsky, transparency!



Yes, I know it comes as a shock to everyone that I'm not a published author of best-selling books, and highly-paid lecturer and therapist. (((rolls eyes)))
_________________________
At the end of every hard-earned day, people gotta find some reason to believe. (Bruce Springsteen)

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#2243632 - 05/08/12 10:30 AM Re: Not sure of next step [Re: labug]
chatterbug Offline
Member

Registered: 09/19/09
Posts: 2757
Originally Posted By: labug
I don't have the data to back it up -- just anecdotal experience --

Yay, Starsky, transparency!




Did you do the shoo sound with the wave of the hand as well ?
_________________________
Flowers always make people better, happier, and more helpful; they are sunshine, food and medicine for the soul.
unconditional love is awesome!

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