Into the darkness - DB full steam ahead

[2thepoint]

It's been a few days since I posted here and I will respond to Busto and Rick later.

Right now I need to vent a little and could use some advice.

Had a little backslide this morning when I went to the house to walk S9 to the bus stop. He apparently has been somewhat of a pill since last night when his mother took him to basketball practice and it carried over to this morning.

My backslide occurred when S9 refused to wear a heavy coat when it was 27 degrees outside. He was already grumpy when I got to the house and started to pitch a fit when it came time to put on the jacket. I start to get a little demanding, he gets a little more obstinate and round and round we go.

Backing up a bit.... I asked W what was up and she said S9 didn't have a good practice last night. Well it turned out that W was running late for whatever reason. As a matter of fact, I was in the area around 5 and called W to see if she needed me to pick S9 up from after school care. She seemed frazzled at the time and a little indecisive but eventually said yes, that would be fine. She was running a few errands and would be home soon bringing a pizza home for the boys before practice at 6:30.

Well, she gets home around 6:28 and S9 is now in a state because he doesn't like to be late for practices or games (good work ethic). What seems odd to me is that before W got home from her errands, S9 and S13 and I were shooting baskets in the driveway for 30-45 minutes. And we were all having a good time. I was working with S9 on his layup and he was doing really good. So before he left for practice he was in good spirits.

So I don't know what the issue with S9 is/was. Did it have to do with the practice, the fact that he was late, didn't get enough sleep, was hungry? Who knows? The bottom line is our little tussle this morning probably didn't give W a warm and fuzzy about how well things can go if we R.

One other thing: My w has said she wants to sell the house and move into a less expensive neighborhood next door. There is a smaller house in that neighborhood that is next door to friends of ours, on the end of a cul de sac, on a greenbelt and considerably less expensive than our current house. Is is for sale and has been on the market for 4 mos. I have made arrangements to see the house today just out of curiosity. I have mentioned this house to my w before and she seemed interested. So I mentioned to her this morning that I was looking at the house and if she was free, perhaps she'd like to see it as well. she was non-commital but not objectionable. However later I texted her to let her know of the time and to see if she was going to see it and she texted back... No. No need to.

Ugh!

Later this morning I get a text from W asking if I'm available tomorrow for a joint session with her C and my C to "talk through the holiday/winter break." So I call her and ask whats up? She said she thought it would be a good idea to set the plans now. I asked her if she didn't think we could work this out together without 3rd parties and she says..... I don't know, I don't know.

I inform her that I already have a C session tomorrow morning and she says "oh, I didn't know that." So I tell her that I'm sure we could work it out on our own but if she thought this would help, then fine, lets do it. She says that she doesn't want to wait around over the holidays (whatever that means) and so we need to work out plans.

This is all fine and dandy but WTF?!? I mentioned in a previous post that W and I really don't communicate much these days outside of logistics with the kids. Now here's yet another example of an opportunity to work together on something as simple as what to do with the kids over the Christmas break and she doesn't want to engage directly. She needs a 3rd party to play referee!?!?

The thing is, I sort of have a bad taste in my mouth with W's C because of the last time we met jointly. That was when W used the opportunity to show her C that she was being "brave" and dropping the bomb in the presence of her C. Mind you, she had already dropped the bomb a few days/weeks before but this was, I guess the "official bomb drop" in her eyes.

So, I don't really care for my W's C because when I asked about why no MC before we got to this point and whether the C felt like M's were worth saving, all I got was a milquetoast response followed by "it is clear that you and your W are moving in opposite directions and so there is nothing more for us to discuss".

So now I find myself a little peeved about this whole joint C session tomorrow and that my W can't face me one-on-one to deal with the kids and the holidays.

I'm also annoyed at myself for my backslide. She has to feel at some point that things can be better and this certainly wasn't a very good example.

[workinghardguy]

2TP... just a suggestion, coming from an 8-year stepdad who's done 8 split holidays... the two of you are way behind the 8-ball on arranging the holidays. Really, you should have set Christmas when it was Thanksgiving, and ideally set all of them by early November. I know, things are crazy and fluid, but in future years I would suggest it. heck, if schedules allow you can even set them all at the start of the year.

With that said, IMO the C route is ridiculous. Your grown adults, you can't figure this out? Are you going to run to a C every year? Seriously. Not to mention what are you showing your boys... that mom and dad need an umpire for the tough stuff?

I simply wouldn't go. I'd tell her that the two of you can figure this out like grown-ups. And then if you really can't come to an agreement you could bring in a third party. This isn't really the tough stuff anyway... there will be much tougher decisions later in the kids' lives. If she needs an umpire for this, what the heck happens when the questions about parties, dating, drugs, discipline, grades, etc... comes up?

[bustorama]

Had a little backslide this morning when I went to the house to walk S9 to the bus stop. He apparently has been somewhat of a pill since last night when his mother took him to basketball practice and it carried over to this morning.

We all make these backslides. Don't beat yourself up too much (can't undo the past), just think about specific strategies you can use in the future to prevent or de-escalate if you catch urself in the midst again.

You talked about HIS grumpiness. What triggered YOU to be drawn into it?

So I mentioned to her this morning that I was looking at the house and if she was free, perhaps she'd like to see it as well. she was non-commital but not objectionable. However later I texted her to let her know of the time and to see if she was going to see it and she texted back... No. No need to.

Feeling does suck. Stop doing this to yourself.

You are still temp-checking, hoping, pursuing, acting as if you are in an R/M with her....instead of accepting her choice not to be M to you. (I did much of the same in other ways so I get it). Would you ask an ex-W or ex-GF to look at a house with you?

Act as if you are dead in the ditch already.

Later this morning I get a text from W asking if I'm available tomorrow for a joint session with her C and my C to "talk through the holiday/winter break." So I call her and ask whats up? She said she thought it would be a good idea to set the plans now. I asked her if she didn't think we could work this out together without 3rd parties and she says..... I don't know, I don't know.

I inform her that I already have a C session tomorrow morning and she says "oh, I didn't know that." So I tell her that I'm sure we could work it out on our own but if she thought this would help, then fine, lets do it. She says that she doesn't want to wait around over the holidays (whatever that means) and so we need to work out plans.

Listen, I have to disagree with the above poster here (sorry!). Your W has come to you with something that is important to her. You can accommodate her wishes without violating your own core boundaries (I think). So why WOULDN'T you? It seems to me that, in this instance, if you don't, it is about your wishes/world view (again), and invalidating hers. If you aren't communicating well outside of kids' logistics, maybe it wouldn't be a terrible idea to communicate with each other on something else in the safety of C. You don't have to go into it thinking of the C as go-betweens, just that they are in there in case you guys start going in circles about something or get sideways with each other.

The thing is, I sort of have a bad taste in my mouth with W's C because of the last time we met jointly. That was when W used the opportunity to show her C that she was being "brave" and dropping the bomb in the presence of her C.

Listen, I had the exact same taste towards my W's C (and the same experience of W getting me to come to her session to drop the bomb in session) and her C praising her as being so brave, and when I implored about MC, her C simply saying, that is not what your W wants. I will tell you something surprising, when my W and I ended up reconciling, her C was in support of the reconciling and said how happy she was to hear it.

Your W's C seems like your enemy now because she is validating, accepting and being supportive of your W's world view. And your W feels very safe with C because of that. That is why she wants to talk this over with C present, because she doesn't really feel safe talking about it with you alone.

If your W's world view was to change, her C would be your ally. Her C is not (really) the issue. The issue is that your W does not want to be with you and does not feel safe 1-on-1 with you. It doesn't help your cause to fight (not accept) your W's wishes and feelings. Saying no to discussing things with her in a forum in which she feels safe would be tantamount to that.

[sayitaintso]

Hey 2tp- Just wanted to comment real quick on your most recent post and I will catch up on your sitch later. The backslide you are referring to about your son imo is extremely minor and I hope you don't beat yourself up over that. I have the same issues w/ my 9 yr old in the mornings so I can totally empathize. You have been an absolutely awesome dad so don't let this one tiny incident take away from anything and everything that you have been doing. It seems very minor to me in the grand scheme of things.

Check ya later-

[BklynMom]

2tp don't beat yourself up. You have been fantastic lately. Your changes are obvious from reading your posts, hopefully she will wake up and see them.

I agree with busto regarding the c. Unfortunately as the LBS we will have to do the heavy lifting in order to R. I think you should bite your tongue and go to her C. Maybe you can use the time to win over the C.

Your wife is not thinking clearly but presumably the c is. If the C can see your changes it might trickle down to your w. I would prepare for the session as you would for a business meeting with rehearsed answers to predicatable questions. Also maybe some well thought out questions for your w.

This session is an opportunity.

Listen and validate! Listen and validate!

[2thepoint]

Thanks everyone for your comments/perspective! It has helped me to see things more clearly.

WHG - “Really, you should have set Christmas when it was Thanksgiving, and ideally set all of them by early November. I know, things are crazy and fluid, but in future years I would suggest it.”

I agree. We really should have already taken care of this. The reality is that we’ve only been separated for 4 weeks so we really hadn’t given it much thought. Also Thanksgiving was a sort of mash up of visits since the in-laws were in town. Finally, I just feel like setting the visitation schedule or whatever you want to call it, make things feel more solidified and uncomfortable. I guess I was subconsciously avoiding the inevitable.

Busto – “You talked about HIS grumpiness. What triggered YOU to be drawn into it?”

I don’t know, I guess I was just trying to get this under control and get him out the door, not really realizing the extent of his grumpiness. I know this is a source of conflict for me and my W. I unintentionally create escalation when there is probably a better way. Thus the frustration with my backslide.

Busto – “You are still temp-checking, hoping, pursuing, acting as if you are in an R/M with her....instead of accepting her choice not to be M to you. (I did much of the same in other ways so I get it). Would you ask an ex-W or ex-GF to look at a house with you?”

You are right. I need to stop this. Also, in hindsight I should have considered that facilitating a relocation/move for my W kinda sorta moves things along faster than I should want or need. So STOP!!


Busto – “Act as if you are dead in the ditch already.”

Yikes! Sounds so final! But I get it!

Busto – “Your W has come to you with something that is important to her. You can accommodate her wishes without violating your own core boundaries (I think). So why WOULDN'T you? It seems to me that, in this instance, if you don't, it is about your wishes/world view (again), and invalidating hers. If you aren't communicating well outside of kids' logistics, maybe it wouldn't be a terrible idea to communicate with each other on something else in the safety of C. You don't have to go into it thinking of the C as go-betweens, just that they are in there in case you guys start going in circles about something or get sideways with each other.”

I hadn’t considered this perspective. I was simply operating from the position of logic and rational thought (i.e. we are adults and should be able to work this sort of thing out. Plus it’s not like we are warring parties, we do get along). But your point is well taken. Interestingly enough, there were 3 women in my Divorce Care meeting tonight and I mentioned my W’s idea to them and they unanimously agreed that they thought my W’s idea was a good one and a positive move. I explained my initial reaction but they still agreed that this was a good move.

Busto – “And your W feels very safe with C because of that. That is why she wants to talk this over with C present, because she doesn't really feel safe talking about it with you alone.”

“The issue is that your W does not want to be with you and does not feel safe 1-on-1 with you.”

When you say she doesn’t feel safe talking about it alone with me, what do you mean? That she feels emotionally unsafe? That she is afraid that I will railroad her?

Busto – “It doesn't help your cause to fight (not accept) your W's wishes and feelings. Saying no to discussing things with her in a forum in which she feels safe would be tantamount to that.”

So this I guess could be a 180 for me by letting my W take the lead on something that is important to her.

Brooklyn – “If the C can see your changes it might trickle down to your w. I would prepare for the session as you would for a business meeting with rehearsed answers to predictable questions. Also maybe some well thought out questions for your w.”

“This session is an opportunity.”

“Listen and validate! Listen and validate!”

Really great perspective!! I happen to already have an appointment with my C in the morning so this will definitely be a topic for discussion and since he will be there during the joint session, it is going to be interesting to see how tis all plays out.

I think my plan will be to appear upbeat and positive (smile and look great! Listen and validate!). That will really throw her for a loop, won’t it?

Busto – “YOUR job is to make yourself attractive to the world, which happens to include her, by being a kick ass guy and father.”

“…she has already released you. If there are threads that still bind you, she won't really notice them unless she feels them stretched by your pulling away/moving on. And if they are there, then she will move back towards you to relieve the resulting tension in her.”

I really like this! Thanks for sharing that bit of wisdom!