Wife is angrier after my 180

[rickb89]

25yearsmlc - your reply at 12:49 am was so insightful!

[25yearsmlc]

[quote=bustorama]25, I totally get you saying that 2t is owning his past misdeeds and wanting (and needing) to make amends. I'm all for that. However, I also hear 2 in his message above say:

[quote=2t]But, as I think about my own predicament I can't help but have an overwhelming desire to confront. If for no other reason than to make peace with the fact that W wants to break up the family to be with OM primarily and because of our issues, secondarily. I feel like she owes me that respect to be upfront and honest and will not admit this without my prompting.

Here's where I part ways with you. And it's just my opinion, obviously. But to HER, imo, she was pushed into the arms of OM.

Therefore, is the OM really the cause or the result?

In my opinion, the OM is both.

Sorry I don't believe that. She was faithful and loyal to him and put up with a LOT of crap for YEARS...BEFORE she strayed. And of course she had options. Who said she didn't? But You are assuming HER reasons for an EA were the same as yours....I submit, with only my intuition, that they were not.

She went to c and he didn't. She raised and interacted with the kids and he did not, he was a yeller, the last 3 years SHE was ALSO the breadwinner. He was mega controlling by his own admission, critical and snipey, loved the internet more than his family (in terms of attention to them)...and in many eyes, not pulling his weight outside the home...

I don't know if all those things really apply to you but even if they do, this is her we are talking about and we don't know her. But by his description, she was a good w for a long time. (God 2t, I don't mean to berate you b/c you are doing seriously good brave work and digging deep, but I feel like buster is projecting a tad too much while claiming to agree with what I said)....

Further, I said "2t can tell her what he wants about the EA if that makes him feel he's being direct & keeping a boundary". I don't know that telling her the obvious (ie that he does not like sharing her w/OM) is going to help or hurt their sitch as I'm sure she knows. But If it helps HIM, really...then okay...so if you agree with all the things we suggested and with his ideas, what are we arguing now?

I engaged in a brief EA against my W before she left me years later. I had similarly justified the EA to myself and to her by saying that she had "driven" me to it by neglecting my EN for years and showing me nothing but anger. And, yes, she had hurt me in those actions and inactions. BUT, I (and 2t's W) had other choices besides having an EA. She, for example, could have left the R without beginning an EA (some do). She could have stated an ultimatum to him -- if you don't go to therapy with me/shape up/stop this neglectful

no offense but really, I do get this^^^^. Of course she/they had options. I said I was not defending an EA. Merely pointing out that it was not "insane" and that assigning blame seems more about ego and pride, than solution based therapy, which is what this site is about.


behavior/start listening to me, etc. then I will file for divorce and move out. There are plenty of choices other than starting an EA (those are things she hopefully will come to see down the road). I mean, at some level, she "knows" it is wrong for her to make this choice because it is/was secretive.

YES, he hurt her. YES, he neglected her. YES, he ignored and invalidated her emotional needs. Those are all things he really needs to make amends for. But, I don't see how any of that means he should not mind his own boundaries and be honest with his W

He can validate her feelings of hurt and neglect and even her feeling that he 'drove' her to it, while being honest with her about his own feelings and minding his own boundaries. Validation is accepting and valuing the other person's feelings, not necessarily agreeing with them.

You're explaining what validating is to me...Is this sort of journalling for you? I mean I am not sure where you are going with this...

I want to be clear. I am not suggesting that he start blaming her for the current situation. I totally agree with you there. It negates his role in the breakdown and his need to look inwards and fix his side of the fence. 'This is your fault, you are having an EA, you are breaking up our family.' No, no, no.

I am suggesting he be honest with her about what he knows, how he feels about it, and (if he wishes), that it crosses one of his boundaries. He can do this all while validating her hurt, anger, resentment and desire for space.


stipulated to in my earlier post.

W, you are important to me, and I am sorry I have hurt you these years by not acting that way towards you, by shutting you down and not listening to you -- by not showing you how I feel about you when I had the chance. It is important to me that we are open and honest with each other going forward, and I know that you are having an EA. I get that you feel you had no other choice because you felt so neglected and unloved for years. That I drove you to it. I can only imagine how hurt, unloved and angry you felt for things to come to this. But, I can't be in a relationship with you while you are having an EA -- I can't have another man in my marriage or between us. I just can't share you that way. I understand that you want space and if that is what you want, I will help you to move out (or if he REALLY decides it is the right thing for him, for him to move out).

It validates her feelings. It is open, honest and sharing with her. It minds his boundary of not sharing his W with another man.

not sure what is in dispute here.

[gunny]

2,
How did the Divorce Care meeting go? Just curious, I just joined a group near me and have been going for 3 weeks, I like the people alot.

Even though my s has moved, she is still content to let me handle our investments. She has indicated that she completely trusts me to manage them, even though she eventually wants a d. She has not indicated any interest at all in my pension, (govt or Marine Corps). Curious behavior, didnt think about this until you mentioned your arrangement in your sitch

[workinghardguy]

Doesn't that strike you as weird Gunny? My W is the same. Says one of the fundamental issues is she "doesn't trust me". Yet wants me to control all the finances, investments, financial planning, etc...

I even send her reports showing where our money went and what's where. She thanks me but repeatedly says she doesn't need it but I can send it if I want.

I don't get it... how can we be trustworthy enough to manage the money but otherwise not...

[totallygutted]

Doesn't that strike you as weird Gunny? My W is the same. Says one of the fundamental issues is she "doesn't trust me". Yet wants me to control all the finances, investments, financial planning, etc...

I even send her reports showing where our money went and what's where. She thanks me but repeatedly says she doesn't need it but I can send it if I want.

I don't get it... how can we be trustworthy enough to manage the money but otherwise not...

I think they are just excuses for the unexcusable. They require some reason to maintain their decision, even if they have to make one up.

[2thepoint]

Gunny - the DC meeting was ok. Small group (6 total) all women except for me and the facilitator. I didn't get the impression that any of them were interested in saving their marriages. So it was a little weird. Since I started mid-series I ended up at the session where the topic was on scriptural interpretation of divorce and when it is permitted and when it is not. Yesterday was an emotional day fore me and it was all I could do to keep it together during the session. Ugh!

Regarding financial matters, I think Busto makes a good point when he said "It makes sense that she wants to keep some of the security of you there -- she has had it for years." Part of me thinks that she just wants me physically out of the house and that this is the transitional phase. The other part of me is hopeful that she isn't totally sure what she wants. Who knows?

[2thepoint]

WHG - I think as far as women are concerned, trust in the general sense of the word and trust as it relates to matters of the heart are very different. So we need to find the balance and work really hard to understand where they are coming from. And it is something that must be continually tended to like a plot of land that can quickly get overgrown with weeds if not cared for on a regular basis. Make sense?

[workinghardguy]

Actually it does, to a degree. The book How to Fix Your Marriage Without Talking About It talks about "stepping in the puddle" with your spouse.

At the same time, understanding the disconnect between finance and trust or, even more so, kids and trust is baffling. If we can't be trust with their heart how then do they trust us with their children (and their children's hearts).

To me... this trust thing... it's more of a smokescreen for an internalized personal issue. One that relates to forming healthy bonds and opening one's self up in a time of need. It's not really "trust" but connection. What I believe they are saying is "when I was hurting you never connected with me the way I needed you to" therefore I can't trust that you won't leave me alone in my pain again.

When people throw up trust issues it infers that there has been a breach of fidelity at some point (in the general sense, not the A sense), and I don't know that it truly is that. But it makes the issue confusing and noisy because you can show that there should be trust but really what is being sought is an emotional connection.

[2thepoint]

WHG - I think I get your point....

To me... this trust thing... it's more of a smokescreen for an internalized personal issue. One that relates to forming healthy bonds and opening one's self up in a time of need. It's not really "trust" but connection. What I believe they are saying is "when I was hurting you never connected with me the way I needed you to" therefore I can't trust that you won't leave me alone in my pain again.

When I was working in the corporate world we often conducted internal people surveys and I recall a question that was always asked "is your boss trustworthy?" They would often provide a definition with the question and as I recall for the question of trust, they were saying, does your boss follow through on commitments, does your boss do what they say they are going to do, etc.

So I think trust can be defined many ways. When we think of trust in relationships, we often default to lying or infidelity. What I think our spouses may be saying is that I don't trust you to be there for me when I need you most. Or, you are not consistently there for me and I've been burned enough to no longer trust you, emotionally.

[25yearsmlc]

Doesn't that strike you as weird Gunny? My W is the same. Says one of the fundamental issues is she "doesn't trust me". Yet wants me to control all the finances, investments, financial planning, etc...

I even send her reports showing where our money went and what's where. She thanks me but repeatedly says she doesn't need it but I can send it if I want.

I don't get it... how can we be trustworthy enough to manage the money but otherwise not...

b/c maybe (and this is a guess of course) she's not sure she trusts the changes/180s...

so if you remember to "do the math"

consistent changes + sufficient time = change she can believe in...

then you'll find out what she means.