Wife is angrier after my 180

[2thepoint]

You know it is funny, it is so easy for me to give advice to people who are in the same situation as I am and that advice is to detach and not confront regarding the EA/A/OM. But, as I think about my own predicament I can't help but have an overwhelming desire to confront. If for no other reason than to make peace with the fact that W wants to break up the family to be with OM primarily and because of our issues, secondarily. I feel like she owes me that respect to be upfront and honest and will not admit this without my prompting. God give me strength!

I am overcome with grief today. W and I had a lengthy conversation last night regarding the future and she is set on me moving out. For me to detach, I will need to create this space but it is absolutely eating me alive! My W readily acknowledged all of the changes she is seeing and likes what she sees. But, she says as we all have been cautioned by DR and others on this board, "I hope you aren't doing this with the expectation of a reconciliation". Of course my response is that these changes are for me and for the kids and for my future happiness. If a reconciliation occurs then that is a bonus but not the goal. I did tell W that although she wants to break us apart, I do not but will do what is necessary to help us both find our peace.

So today I got a text from good friends of ours asking if we'd like to spend Christmas with them. The tears immediately began to flow (as they are now) at the thought that as a family we may never be together again and my heart breaks!

So my real journey begins as I make preparations to move out, detach and forge my way in this scary new world.

[bustorama]

Hey 2thepoint,

Sorry about the pain you're feeling. I know it. Hang in there.

I do not know what current board dogma is, but when I was on here before, there was a general consensus that the BS should not move out of the family home. I don't know y'all's financial circumstances (who owns/rents residence, etc. or if common property), but If the WW wants to pursue a life away from their partner, then they are free to do so.

There are a number of reasons for you not to move out:
1) Potentially could be viewed as abandonment of children

2) Sets precedent if things proceed to divorce

3) It 'cushions' the choice of the WS -- if they are choosing to walk away from their life and commitment, that is their choice. It does not mean that you should suffer for it or are obliged to enable it or facilitate it -- she needs to put on her big girl panties if that is what she wants. There are significant economic and time costs to starting a new home -- why should you disproportionately bear those if you are not making that choice? It is truly respecting your W's choice that you live apart to not rescue her or cushion her from the consequences of her choices.

4) You could offer to help her move instead and pack her things if she wants to leave.

She may get all kinds of angry at you. That's fine, she's entitled to. Her potential anger or emotional responses should not dictate your behavior -- that is a key part of healthy detachment. Be your own compass.

Also, I do not know what the current board dogma is on how to handle EA/PA, but I will tell you something from personal experience. I was having an EA on my W before SHE later dropped the bomb on me about 1-2 years after I stopped my EA. She got me to stop my EA immediately by exposing it to me that she knew, by emailing the person and spouse of person I was having EA with, by saying she would not share me with another woman.

Also I know from my own boundaries that I do not want to share my spouse with another man. If your sons came to you one day and said, Dad, I think my W might be cheating on me with this guy on Facebook. What would you tell them? Or what model would you want them to follow?

When I suspected my W was having an EA, I confronted her with it. She got extremely angry at me, called me controlling, etc. But I think she gained respect for me. "I'm sorry for ways that I have hurt you in the past, but I will not be in a relationship in which I share my W with another man. This situation does not work for me. If you want to carry on like that (and it's her choice), you need to live somewhere else."

I see detachment as detaching from her decisions, choices, and emotional responses -- those are hers. I don't think it means you should detach from your own value set. If your value set is that you do not want to share your spouse, I think it more than ok to express that. Then it's her choice how to act.

[25yearsmlc]

thing is, his DB coach said it might be an act of selflessness to move out and give her the space she's requesting

b/c their marital history consists of what 2t refers to as selfishness on His part...and a lot of neglecting his w and kids.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, just saying there is a reason for his action and for them getting to this place.


2t, I hesitate to post to you b/c I know you want things said a certain way and I'm too direct for that.

But I'd say it's hardly over unless you want it to be. You can fight for her more than you have and for far longer.

That does not mean you keep showing her your pain or neediness, God no.


Be a strong man, earn enough to provide for your family (got mixed messages on whether you were "making more money than you ever dreamed of" or wanted to earn more?? Are you a sahd? ) and BE UPBEAT!! Be easy to be around.

Anyhow, regardless of how fair or not -- this is what it is. We must deal with the cards we are dealt.

The r with OM has not run its' course. BUT As long as she truly believes you have changed --she will wonder if she should have stayed.

The MINUTE you revert to your old ways she'll reassure herself of the rightness of her decision.

You do NOT want her to reassure herself, you want her to doubt that choice.

Without ever saying so...

So be the best man you can be, be a little mysterious. Show her the changes and say nothing about them to her. Make them about being a better you.

Keep working on being a good listener and recapping what she said so you KNOW what she meant and there's no mind reading.

And please back off with all the expectations or pushing for more when you get a gesture of kindness or concern from her.

See, you want her to feel safe doing that, not having to remind you that you are 'not to read into"....

Leave her to her "task" and let her discover that the grass is greener where you water it.

This was something you yourself only discovered recently, so model that.

In time the A will lose some of its' luster for ALL r's take work and he cannot exceed you in all matters. She will wonder...

and she will look back over her shoulder every time she sees you and the boys playing or talking like good dads do w/their sons...and she will wonder....

and YOU will look good b/c you will have become the man you want to become.
The man you were meant to be.

Make sense?

[bustorama]

thing is, his DB coach said it might be an act of selflessness to move out and give her the space she's requesting

b/c their marital history consists of what 2t refers to as selfishness on His part...and a lot of neglecting his w and kids.

I get that 2t has been selfish and neglectful in the past -- most of us probably were in some way that contributed to our marital breakdown.

I am suggesting that he think hard about how to be responsive to what she wants (space) without compromising his own core needs/boundaries -- that he not swing the pendulum too far to the other way being obsequious to her, cowtowing to her whims for the sake of selflessness, BUT at his own expense.

He can validate her decision to separate and help her get her space without him being the one to leave. I get that you want space and don't want to be in a relationship with me. I don't want to be in an R with someone who does not want to be with me either. If you feel that way, I agree that it is best that you move out. If you want, I will even help you pack/move.

I mean, do you want to legitimize her having an EA and telling him to leave the family home so she can carry her EA on in peace?

What is the current sleeping arrangement at home 2t?

[25yearsmlc]

thing is, his DB coach said it might be an act of selflessness to move out and give her the space she's requesting

b/c their marital history consists of what 2t refers to as selfishness on His part...and a lot of neglecting his w and kids.

I get that 2t has been selfish and neglectful in the past -- most of us probably were in some way that contributed to our marital breakdown.

But HE realizes it...and is trying to show change in HIM. And not to beat a dead horse, but he sounds like he's owning something he really ought to own; I would not be so quick to gloss over his work or need for it.


I am suggesting that he think hard about how to be responsive to what she wants (space) without compromising his own core needs/boundaries -- that he not swing the pendulum too far to the other way being obsequious to her, cowtowing to her whims for the sake of selflessness, BUT at his own expense.

No matter what, he'll be doing something at HIS expense; his w wants a divorce. It stinks but it's how it is.

She's not insane. In her mind, she feels he pushed her into the arms of OM....Did you read his whole thread?


He can validate her decision to separate and help her get her space without him being the one to leave. I get that you want space and don't want to be in a relationship with me. I don't want to be in an R with someone who does not want to be with me either. If you feel that way, I agree that it is best that you move out. If you want, I will even help you pack/move.

I mean, do you want to legitimize her having an EA and telling him to leave the family home so she can carry her EA on in peace?

are you asking me this or 2t?

And his leaving has nothing to do with "legtimizing" her having an EA or his prior behavior or her wanting to carry on the EA, which she'll do anyhow. He has no control over that.

I guess I'm reluctant to openly challenge the advice of his DB coach.

What is the current sleeping arrangement at home 2t?

[bustorama]

25, I totally get you saying that 2t is owning his past misdeeds and wanting (and needing) to make amends. I'm all for that. However, I also hear 2 in his message above say:

But, as I think about my own predicament I can't help but have an overwhelming desire to confront. If for no other reason than to make peace with the fact that W wants to break up the family to be with OM primarily and because of our issues, secondarily. I feel like she owes me that respect to be upfront and honest and will not admit this without my prompting.

Emotions can be signals of your own boundaries being crossed (or about to be crossed). What 2t writes above suggests to me that he may have boundaries concerning 1) his W being with another M and breaking up his family, and 2) honesty and respect in his relationship with his W.

I'm suggesting that 2t reconcile his desire to listen to, respect and be responsive to his wife's desire for space at this time with his own (unspoken?) boundaries.

For example, if 2t moves out without saying something to his W concerning the EA, is he violating one or both of the above boundaries? Only 2t knows whether either of those are core boundaries for him. Maybe they aren't.

I totally agree with you that he doesn't control whether or not she participates in the R or has an EA or files for divorce. Yes, those are totally her choices.

But, whether or not she will or will not continue the EA should not dictate what HE does -- that's one of the main points of detachment -- not to act in response to or in anticipation of another's actions or feelings. He should act based on what is the right thing for HIM to do/say. He (and he alone), DOES control whether he crosses his own boundaries. That's part of what I meant, by "at his own expense." Not to cross his own core boundaries while trying to be selfless in making amends for past selfishness. Sorry if I was unclear.

Respect his wife's choices and amend for past neglect and selfishness, within his own boundaries.

[25yearsmlc]

25, I totally get you saying that 2t is owning his past misdeeds and wanting (and needing) to make amends. I'm all for that. However, I also hear 2 in his message above say:

But, as I think about my own predicament I can't help but have an overwhelming desire to confront. If for no other reason than to make peace with the fact that W wants to break up the family to be with OM primarily and because of our issues, secondarily. I feel like she owes me that respect to be upfront and honest and will not admit this without my prompting.

Here's where I part ways with you. And it's just my opinion, obviously. But to HER, imo, she was pushed into the arms of OM.

Therefore, is the OM really the cause or the result?

TO her, there were his years of not caring enough to even bother hearing her, literally, or to ask why she needed to see a t or was so depressed she needed treatment that they "never talked about"?

These are much deeper issues than an EA is, imo. These are the roots of why her emotional needs would lead her to an EA, and while I do not "defend" it,

to pretend there were no contributing factors is to deny reality.

I think that making this about "Her owning the A" is off target and worse, It's about ego and assigning of blame.

Plus, it does nothing to help them reconcile or move forward into the future, which requires

him looking far more at himself and THEN HER looking at herself....pretty much the DBer does the first 100 steps...and then some.


Emotions can be signals of your own boundaries being crossed (or about to be crossed). What 2t writes above suggests to me that he may have boundaries concerning 1) his W being with another M and breaking up his family, and 2) honesty and respect in his relationship with his W.

Obviously he doesn't want her to be with OM. Not an unusual "boundary"...but again, I stand by what I wrote above. No matter what you call it, it's pride and assignment of blame. I just don't see that as helping IF RECONCILIATION is really the goal..

but I get that it may not be. I get that he may want her to be the bad guy in this and let it end and that might be easier, at first glance...

but it's not easier in the long run.

I'm suggesting that 2t reconcile his desire to listen to, respect and be responsive to his wife's desire for space at this time with his own (unspoken?) boundaries.

For example, if 2t moves out without saying something to his W concerning the EA, is he violating one or both of the above boundaries? Only 2t knows whether either of those are core boundaries for him. Maybe they aren't.

Of course they're boundaries. He can say anything he wants; doesn't make it fact. He can tell her it's all her fault and that cheating or the desire to, is the "real reason" for the end of the family and he can tell his sons that if he so chooses. Does not make him accurate or gallant or "self respecting"- it makes him self serving

and it does nothing to advance his cause. If he wants to keep the road home paved and smooth,

then he can privately tell her how he feels about the EA but if he pretends that she'll think SHE is the culprit, he could lose her forever.

And if he convinces himself of that, he'll never grow or become the man he wants to become.

I totally agree with you that he doesn't control whether or not she participates in the R or has an EA or files for divorce. Yes, those are totally her choices.

But, whether or not she will or will not continue the EA should not dictate what HE does -- that's one of the main points of detachment -- not to act in response to or in anticipation of another's actions or feelings. He should act based on what is the right thing for HIM to do/say. He (and he alone), DOES control whether he crosses his own boundaries. That's part of what I meant, by "at his own expense." Not to cross his own core boundaries while trying to be selfless in making amends for past selfishness. Sorry if I was unclear.

Respect his wife's choices and amend for past neglect and selfishness, within his own boundaries.

[2thepoint]

Busto - thanks for our post and perspective!
25 - welcome back, I've missed you. I mean that!

Current living arrangements are that W sleeps upstairs in the guest BR while I sleep in the downstairs MB.

Regarding the EA, although I am angry about that and have an overwhelming need to confront, I know that if I want to save my M, now is not the time. I think I've read here and elsewhere that I have to know whether something I say or do will harm or improve chances for a reconciliation. I want to do no harm, so I will bite my tongue for now. When W initiated the hour long R discussion the other day, the thought of the EA was running through my mind the entire time but I chose to say nothing.

25 - In addition to selfish behavior I've also come to discover that I am very controlling. I mentioned this to my W and she totally agreed. This is probably the biggest issue in our R. W said that for too many years she has felt forced into decisions that she didn't agree with entirely and has pushed down her anger for so long that she finally has had enough! I like your tag line - Be Happy or be "Right" and I mentioned to my W that I had seen that written somewhere and she nodded in agreement and almost smiled.

So, as I continue to dig deep, I see control, selfishness and emotional detachment as my biggest contributors to the state of our R.

Busto - I think that by moving out, W will get the space she needs for reflection and healing and I will be able to detach in a way that allows me to continue my journey of discovery while also preparing for the potential of life without my W. Eventually, there will come a time for us to dig deeper together regarding what lead each of us to where we find ourselves and that is when I think it will be appropriate to discuss the EA. Until then I think it is best to keep quiet about this particular issue.

25 - I am currently a SAHD although I have a small real estate investment business with a partner in another state. My wife makes a good living telecommuting as an telecom engineer. 3 years ago I left a very high paying executive level position with a large financial services company. When I left that job, our household income was reduced by 60% or more. So while our household income is significantly less than what it was, we are able to maintain our standard of living as long as we watch our $$. Interesting discovery though along these lines. As I've mentioned previously, W said that she would be happy for me to be the SAHD while she works. This I think was due to the stress I was under at my job and she felt we could get by, which is true. However, $$ is tight so we have to be careful and that has proven to be more uncomfortable for my W than she anticipated. Also, having me around all the time turned out to be a reminder to my W of some of the things she didn't like in my behavior.

With me moving out and until I can find a job, we will have to tap into our savings to support a second household. Part of me thinks that W doesn't find the unemployed SAHD very attractive and would feel much more confident and secure if her H had a real job. And in this, I don't disagree. We have discussed the pros and cons of having to tap into savings to support 2 households, but W needs her space. I could easily insist that my W be the one to move and she has said she would, but to 25's point about what my DB coach has said, me moving out may actually be the biggest unselfish thing I could do in this situation.

Incidently, my W has said that she would prefer I continue to manage the finances even if I'm living somewhere else. So she wants/needs space but she doesn't want to sever all the ties........

Here are a few updates on my 180's and GAL activities:

- When disciplining the children, I rarely raise my voice - Big Change!
- I'm spending significantly more time with the kids. During my W's 4 day spa weekend, I connected with the boys in ways both small and large. W commented that she noticed all the great bonding and also said that how I dealt with a particular sensitive situation with my 13 year old was "fantastic!"
- Keeping the house tidy - W said that the house has looked the best it has in years!
- Doing much more listening and much less talking
- I go out most days in the morning and don't come home until late afternoon; What am I up to? I'm becoming Austin Powers, International Man of Mystery ;o)
- I'm going to the gym more often than in the past - I'm going to "pump me up!" :o)
- Yesterday, I told W that I couldn't take the boys to soccer practice which I normally do because I had "other plans". What were those plans? Mystery Man strikes again! Actually, I attended a Divorce Care session, but W does't need to know that, right?
- Saturday I'm going on a bike ride with some buddies of mine. It's been a few months since I have ridden and it is time to get "back in the saddle".

So that's my update. Thanks for the thought provoking dialogue!

[bustorama]

[quote=bustorama]25, I totally get you saying that 2t is owning his past misdeeds and wanting (and needing) to make amends. I'm all for that. However, I also hear 2 in his message above say:

[quote=2t]But, as I think about my own predicament I can't help but have an overwhelming desire to confront. If for no other reason than to make peace with the fact that W wants to break up the family to be with OM primarily and because of our issues, secondarily. I feel like she owes me that respect to be upfront and honest and will not admit this without my prompting.

Here's where I part ways with you. And it's just my opinion, obviously. But to HER, imo, she was pushed into the arms of OM.

Therefore, is the OM really the cause or the result?

In my opinion, the OM is both. I engaged in a brief EA against my W before she left me years later. I had similarly justified the EA to myself and to her by saying that she had "driven" me to it by neglecting my EN for years and showing me nothing but anger. And, yes, she had hurt me in those actions and inactions. BUT, I (and 2t's W) had other choices besides having an EA. She, for example, could have left the R without beginning an EA (some do). She could have stated an ultimatum to him -- if you don't go to therapy with me/shape up/stop this neglectful behavior/start listening to me, etc. then I will file for divorce and move out. There are plenty of choices other than starting an EA (those are things she hopefully will come to see down the road). I mean, at some level, she "knows" it is wrong for her to make this choice because it is/was secretive.

YES, he hurt her. YES, he neglected her. YES, he ignored and invalidated her emotional needs. Those are all things he really needs to make amends for. But, I don't see how any of that means he should not mind his own boundaries and be honest with his W

He can validate her feelings of hurt and neglect and even her feeling that he 'drove' her to it, while being honest with her about his own feelings and minding his own boundaries. Validation is accepting and valuing the other person's feelings, not necessarily agreeing with them.

I want to be clear. I am not suggesting that he start blaming her for the current situation. I totally agree with you there. It negates his role in the breakdown and his need to look inwards and fix his side of the fence. 'This is your fault, you are having an EA, you are breaking up our family.' No, no, no.

I am suggesting he be honest with her about what he knows, how he feels about it, and (if he wishes), that it crosses one of his boundaries. He can do this all while validating her hurt, anger, resentment and desire for space.

W, you are important to me, and I am sorry I have hurt you these years by not acting that way towards you, by shutting you down and not listening to you -- by not showing you how I feel about you when I had the chance. It is important to me that we are open and honest with each other going forward, and I know that you are having an EA. I get that you feel you had no other choice because you felt so neglected and unloved for years. That I drove you to it. I can only imagine how hurt, unloved and angry you felt for things to come to this. But, I can't be in a relationship with you while you are having an EA -- I can't have another man in my marriage or between us. I just can't share you that way. I understand that you want space and if that is what you want, I will help you to move out (or if he REALLY decides it is the right thing for him, for him to move out).

It validates her feelings. It is open, honest and sharing with her. It minds his boundary of not sharing his W with another man.

[bustorama]

Regarding the EA, although I am angry about that and have an overwhelming need to confront, I know that if I want to save my M, now is not the time. I think I've read here and elsewhere that I have to know whether something I say or do will harm or improve chances for a reconciliation. I want to do no harm, so I will bite my tongue for now.

I totally agree that finger pointing, blaming, etc. would be misguided (and also would not help the sitch). Think about ways, though, that opening up/sharing about your knowledge of the EA could be done constructively, if not immediately, then at a later time.

Be careful about crossing your own boundaries (or letting others cross your boundaries), because of fear of the consequences of enforcing your boundaries. Think of it on this flip side -- your W for years did not enforce her boundaries with you. She allowed herself to be ignored and neglected and pushed her anger down 'for the good of the R.' She didn't enforce her boundaries or share her negative feelings openly and assertively with you. I'M NOT OK WITH YOU NEGLECTING ME AND CONTROLLING ME LIKE THIS, H!!!!! While she did it with good intentions, it unfortunately has further contributed to your marital breakdown. Might pushing down your discomfort about the EA and not sharing and enforcing your boundary lead to a similar place?

That is a very important insight you've gained re: ways in which you were controlling and your W feeling cajoled into choices that she didn't totally agree with. Really work on that. It doesn't mean you shouldn't express your desires and wishes, but rather to really listen to hers (and provide an environment in which she feels SAFE to share them) and accommodate them. Validate and thank her when she shares her wishes/desires with you from here forward.

We have discussed the pros and cons of having to tap into savings to support 2 households, but W needs her space. I could easily insist that my W be the one to move and she has said she would, but to 25's point about what my DB coach has said, me moving out may actually be the biggest unselfish thing I could do in this situation.

Incidently, my W has said that she would prefer I continue to manage the finances even if I'm living somewhere else. So she wants/needs space but she doesn't want to sever all the ties........

There are pros and cons to this. I'm sure you are aware of many of the pros. Re: the cons, some people believe that to respect your W's choice for space that she should bear the associated consequences -- otherwise, you are rescuing her from her choices (not detachment). That is, if she wants to live separately from you and outside the R -- to see how that is, then, to respect her choice, she should see how life without you would be in every respect -- that she should be responsible for managing her day-to-day finances. You also run the risk of being viewed as controlling if you are still holding purse strings or telling her how much she can or can't spend or on what.

It makes sense that she wants to keep some of the security of you there -- she has had it for years. Are you ok, though, with managing your W's finances while she lives separately from you and participates in an EA with someone else? To take that load off her back?

Here are a few updates on my 180's and GAL activities:

- When disciplining the children, I rarely raise my voice - Big Change!
- I'm spending significantly more time with the kids. During my W's 4 day spa weekend, I connected with the boys in ways both small and large. W commented that she noticed all the great bonding and also said that how I dealt with a particular sensitive situation with my 13 year old was "fantastic!"
- Keeping the house tidy - W said that the house has looked the best it has in years!
- Doing much more listening and much less talking
- I go out most days in the morning and don't come home until late afternoon; What am I up to? I'm becoming Austin Powers, International Man of Mystery ;o)
- I'm going to the gym more often than in the past - I'm going to "pump me up!" :o)
- Yesterday, I told W that I couldn't take the boys to soccer practice which I normally do because I had "other plans". What were those plans? Mystery Man strikes again! Actually, I attended a Divorce Care session, but W does't need to know that, right?
- Saturday I'm going on a bike ride with some buddies of mine. It's been a few months since I have ridden and it is time to get "back in the saddle".

The above is outstanding!!! Keep it up!