Wife is angrier after my 180

[2thepoint]

Goes Alaskan 05 + Marriage Restored 08 = 3 years in the wilderness

[~ kd ~]

I am curious, 2tp... Is the above post about being "right"...

Or is it about baiting 25 into further dialogue...?

As we often say around here... Where else does that show up in your life...?

[25yearsmlc]

AS Kaffe points out, this could be a great opportunity for inward growth 2t, if you'll really look at your response.

Oh and factually, "piecing" means we were living together. Not in the wilderness. He spent one year in a fellowship in this state, away from home, and one year up there alone so I Guess that's "1 year in the wilderness" to you, although Anchorage doesn't qualify as such in the eyes of those living there. Wasn't to me, either.

So your spin on that is oddly negative, as is your entire response to another carefully posted gift to you. I said I wouldn't post to you again, b/c you complained that you felt judged, but then I see this petty reply and I'm puzzled.

What are you doing with your precious time and energy?

[2thepoint]

KD - my post was neither about being right or baiting. I was responding to 25's question "That's Not "3 years in the wilderness"...??". However, your point about where else this may show up in my life is certainly worthy of further exploration. If I'm being misinterpreted here, I am probably misinterpreted elsewhere. So, thanks for that!

25 - I'm not oppossed to your advice at all. Your last post came across as very negative and judgmental to me just as my post seemed like spin and petty to you.

I'm not up to speed on your situation and so my comment about being "in the wilderness" was simply a way of saying that it looked like from your time line that you were in the divorce/break-up/separation wildnerness for about 3 years. Also, I interpreted your reference to H goes Alaskan as an expression of someone going rogue or something like that. I didn't realize your H actually went to Alaska and certainly didn't intend for my comment about time spent in the wildnerness to mean the wilds of Alaska.

And so, I apparently misinterpret your intentions in your prior posts and you misinterpret mine. Hopefully I have been able to clear the air.

Please don't forget that while you have the wisdom and experience and success of rebuilding your M over a long period of time, I'm brand new to this and still finding my way. I wouldn't be posting here if I wasn't seriously interested in fixing me and my marriage.

Regarding what I'm doing with my time... I am spending the day with the family at the boys soccer games and working on being a great dad for my kids.

[Rick1963]

2the you are in good hands, trust me. Their 2x4's are gonna help you look deep and deal with all of that ugly stuff that you never knew existed. I know. Hang in there

[2thepoint]

Thanks Rick!

New 180 today: S13 had an early morning soccer match an hours drive from home. We will typically stop by MD's for a quick breakfast as is my preference. S13 however is a picky eater and will usually forego breakfast regardless. W says we should go to BK instead because they have something on the menu that S13 will eat. BK by the way is 3 miles out of our way from where the soccer game is while MD's is right up the road.

Now, what I would normally do is go to MD's, get what I want and then reluctantly head over to BK, (being completely honest here). Instead, I pass MD's and head for BK so S13 can pick something from the menu. I don't say anything, I just go.

So that is the 180. It's not much I know but I made a conscious decision to ignore my desires in place of someone else's.

Funny thing though, once we got to BK, S13 says he's not hungry! We all laughed. S13 says if you had asked, I would have told you I wasn't hungry.

Little steps....

[2thepoint]

OMG!!! Major discovery tonight! While I was re-reading some prior posts from "25" I noticed some commentary that I hadn't seen before and realized that I hadn't read 25's entire post. This is what I originally saw/read:

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Geesh "25" I appreciate the input but lighten up a bit, please! You've clearly been doing this for far longer than I; 6300+ posts and 3 years in the wildnerness.


Then I shall leave you in the good hands of others.

But so you know, My h's mlc was 6 years ago, not 3. It was 4 years ago we began piecing and 3 that our m was restored. That's Not "3 years in the wilderness"...??

Though I take time off, I do return here to pay it forward as I was greatly helped by the advice I received here.

In fact I give this site about half the credit for restoring my m, and my DB coach the other half.

The early days of being here are days I don't really want to recall, but I do remember them, and the help I got. I treasure it as the life line it was and I treasure the people who took the time to post to me.

Though it was Painful as hell, I took the advice I got.
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This was all that is viewable in the window within the window unless you use the scroll bar to the right which I didn't notice in that post until just now! When scrolling this is what I missed and it was A LOT!!!:

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You've been here 2 months? You often don't take the advice.

The guidance I got here made me learn by digging deep into myself, looking inward where the real journey lies... so that I could stop doing things like asking questions that have no good answers, and Not look outward, at my spouse, to determine MY future.

As for the "Situation" you wanted advice about, you simply said "our situation" and gave no other details. Why wouldn't I assume the "situation" means the R? And you asked for suggestions about how to broach it. Yes I "assumed" you were referring to your R. And come to find out, you were. So what did I miss? What did I "Judge?" That her parents are coming? See comments below.

As for the 180s you describe, I was looking for something substantive, which is why I said you need to dig deeper.

For instance, You told us your w was treated for depression for "years" and or in the "early years" of the m. You also said you "never talked about" why your w was treated for depression but you claimed to be "supportive".

I asked you about that seeming contradiction, and you ignored the question, which I think bugged you.

But to me, that question is huge and symptomatic. A wonderful starting point for you to grow from. And that's the type of bravely looking inward that it takes to succeed here, or at least that's what I think.



I on the other hand was just dealt this crushing blow and am trying my best to deal with it. You make an awful lot of judgments without knowing all of the facts. I could spend all day, every day, detailing my stuff but then I wouldn't be working on the stuff that matters.

See above RE: inferences based on your statements. We can only advise based on what you tell us. If we are missing information that's relevant, that's on you. As for "The situation" you wanted advice on, I gave it to you based on the available info. And I stand by it.

You didn't like the advice I gave you (which is not to force another R talk on her)... so I'm "judgemental"? Really? that's Intriguing to me.

Why must there be a character flaw in me? Why can't you just agree to disagree?

Don't worry, I'm not offended (you don't know me, so how could I be?), but maybe you ought to think about whether that question has value for you.

IOW Is that a pattern anywhere else for you?


You ask about my 180's, yet I've detailed them numerous times throughout this thread, (i.e. W says I wasn't helping enough around the house, so now I do most of the household chores, W says I don't pay enough attention to the kids, so now I spend most of my time with them - sports, school, extracurricular activities - even took them to a hockey game tonight).

As I said before, I was looking for more substantive, emotional 180s, and See note re: what I asked you before, which remains unanswered, but I hope not unexplored.

Also is there a Pattern to these 180 behaviors you are changing? Meaning, she said you didn't help with the chores, you didn't pay attention to the kids and you didn't hear or listen to her? Anything strike you about those = a pattern that reflect something on a deeper level? Why she might feel as she does?

I also purchased hearing aids since W was annoyed by my hearing impediment.

I'm glad you did this^^^. But think about the significance of it going on so long and not bothering you before. Not being able to hear your w even if you wanted to, is itself a telling thing. Don't bother getting angry at me or reacting, just process that for your own sake.

I look for opportunities to provide acts of service

this^^^ sounds really nice. Now see in the next breath how you characterize your w...any judgement there? Didn't sound like venting, but rather, how you see her. Just food for thought.

to my W such as when she was having a near meltdown at a recent sporting event for my son because she was running out of time and didn't have supplies needed to get the team up and running. I calmly assessed the situation and handled the things for her that were creating the problem. All negative emotion has been removed from my interactions with W. Only positive interactions.

Great!! That's a truly amazing feat to ever achieve, let alone in such a short time. But if it's ALL positive, why are you so afraid or anxious? Why aren't you feeling calm and reassured?

Sounds like things are great with you two. Seriously. What's the problem if all is well? B/c she seems happier? Why isn't that good?


These are all 180 and most have been mentioned in previous posts. I get that there is more to do in this area, much more. But, it is a process of discovery that will continue for some time.

When I post about being angry, upset or frustrated about something, it does not mean that I let it show. I post here to vent and to seek guidance.


That's understood. And guidance was the goal.

When I talk about needing to speak to my wife it is because we have not discussed anything lately regarding our living situation, the coming visit of her parents, the disclosure to friends and family and children of our pending separation. We need to talk about these things and how they will be handled and when. I'm not issuing any ultimatums.


First, you've only been at this for weeks, so how long can it have been?

But more importantly, The more people who know, the harder it is for HER to retract. The more who know of her pending choices, the more she must explain them (which tends to cement them).

You want to keep the road home, paved and smooth.

If she's not pushing for disclosure, you should be glad. It's a positive.

My advice remains the same. I know limbo is hard; I did it for 2 years. But being rejected or having rejection confirmed, is harder.

And the more you confirm it, the more solidified it gets and it's just harder to turn it around.


However I would like to be able to discuss these issues and some of the closure I mentioned would be helpful for me. If not a good idea then I will not bring that up. This is why I post... to get advice, not judgment!

I'm sorry you feel judged. I gave advice, which was not to broach the topic for the above reasons.

Don't freak out with my next question, instead use it for yourself/situation and learn...

but do you feel "judged" when your wife, or people in general, ask you questions that make you uncomfortable?

When you feel judged, do you react with them as you did w/me here? B/C you insulted me, and if we were friends, I'd have been offended. But that leads me to wondering if you do that with her.

Do you insult or lash out at her when you feel insecure? Do you feel "attacked" when she asks questions that are disquieting or you feel uncomfortable? Then what do you do?

If we ask probing questions that penetrate and we hit the mark, OR make you uncomfortable OR if you repeatedly avoid a question

we find here that's often a good starting point for examination and growth.

I read your whole thread. You sounded desparate and I know that feeling.
I also know that won't help you w/your w.

You did what I and most of us did; repeat yourself. That's not a judgement, it's an observation. So it Seemed the only way to get through to you was a direct approach.

It's not a problem for me to not post to you, but if you want feedback that gets you thinking and growing, do what it takes to let it in so people can give it to you.

How can your w ever tell you difficult things?

Look, as DBers we don't really know the way to "get your spouse back". We don't know what TO DO about that.

We know what TO DO for YOU....(ways to GAL and detach, dig deep to learn, improve, move on and be mysterious and attractive, etc.)

And we know what pushes the WAS away....b/c that's where so many of us have made the same mistakes and seen the same negative results.
And It's in the mistakes that LBSers make where we see so much in common.

Sure The MLCers may have their scripts, but we have ours too.
So we vets come here to help you avoid stepping in the piles we stepped in.

So we go from there.


Regarding doing something for myself (i.e. long weekend) I'm actually considering that and that would also be a bit of a 180, especially if i don't provide details.

So there you have it.
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25 there is some really good stuff in here and I'm sorry for not noticing earlier. I'm going to have to re-read previous posts to see if there is any other stuff I may have missed.

I will think about these points which you have raised and respond soon. I'm a little tired tonight (all day in the sun).

Thanks for the thought provoking posts!

[workinghardguy]

In regards to the long weekend for yourself... I know I just bought a ticket to a show in a city about two hours from here. I had really hoped to go to the show with a friend from that city, but he's gone travelling for business. So it came down to go by myself or not go.

I have to admit it felt weird deciding to go solo... but what the heck, I could stay at home and be solo too... at least if I go I get to see a humorist I've always wanted to see and get to laugh.

So yeah... it'll be weird, but fun. Do it for yourself. Live, have fun. I know for me it will take a while to build a GAL bullpen, so for now, at least at times, I'm the only starting pitcher I have. I should say a female friend volunteered to go with me, but that just seemed to beg for trouble. Especially since she's single, hits on me frequently, and is extremely attractive. Didn't really want to invite that drama into my life right now

[2thepoint]

Been thinking about things, comments, observations, etc. Here is what I’ve got so far in response to 25’s thread from the other day:

“25” - As for the 180s you describe, I was looking for something substantive, which is why I said you need to dig deeper.

For instance, You told us your w was treated for depression for "years" and or in the "early years" of the m. You also said you "never talked about" why your w was treated for depression but you claimed to be "supportive".

I asked you about that seeming contradiction, and you ignored the question, which I think bugged you.

But to me, that question is huge and symptomatic. A wonderful starting point for you to grow from. And that's the type of bravely looking inward that it takes to succeed here, or at least that's what I think.

“TTP” - My W was seeing a T when we first met. It was not necessarily for depression so much as it was to work on issues relating to social phobias, self esteem, etc. After we married we moved out of state and she stopped seeing a T. Within the last 7 years W’s primary care physician prescribed AD’s to help her deal better with the stress of holding down a F/T job and 2 very active boys. For several of these years, she was trying different dosages and different kinds of AD’s until she found the one that worked best for her. The ones that didn’t work really messed her up emotionally and I was glad when she finally found something that seemed to work.

When I say I tried to be supportive, I did my best to show concern, ask questions, listen to responses, offer help in any way, check in frequently to see how sessions were going, etc. As I stated above, W said she felt sessions were going well and she felt better after each session. No further detail was provided. However, a few months ago after sensing added tension and distance I asked specifically what she talked about with her T and she told me that that was a private matter between her and the T. Message delivered loud and clear… butt out!

Upon further reflection and as was suggested previously, I should have been more attentive and certainly more assertive, attend sessions with my W and seek greater understanding of the troubles she was facing. I think her emotional state had become so routine throughout our married life that I started to ignore it, not realizing that things were deteriorating. Lots of regrets! Maybe opportunity?

“25” - Why can't you just agree to disagree?

Don't worry, I'm not offended (you don't know me, so how could I be?), but maybe you ought to think about whether that question has value for you.

IOW Is that a pattern anywhere else for you?

“2TP” – point well taken – definitely an area to work on

“25” - As I said before, I was looking for more substantive, emotional 180s, and See note re: what I asked you before, which remains unanswered, but I hope not unexplored.

Also is there a Pattern to these 180 behaviors you are changing? Meaning, she said you didn't help with the chores, you didn't pay attention to the kids and you didn't hear or listen to her? Anything strike you about those = a pattern that reflect something on a deeper level? Why she might feel as she does?

“2TP” – Yes, I believe so. I think we both stopped listening to each other. But, also I think that I became despondent over loss of job, feelings of inadequacy about no longer being the bread winner, stuff like that. We’ve also never really resolved what I think is a bit of a power struggle between us. W has never really been interested in household type chores (cooking, cleaning, etc.). She has said on many occasions that she would be content with me staying home and doing the domestic stuff while I would prefer that she do those things. That conflict never got addressed. So, now some of my 180's involve the domestic stuff. I guess I finally gave in. I do feel good about someone finally taking the lead in this area.

“25” - "I look for opportunities to provide acts of service"

this^^^ sounds really nice. Now see in the next breath how you characterize your w...any judgement there? Didn't sound like venting, but rather, how you see her. Just food for thought.

"to my W such as when she was having a near meltdown at a recent sporting event for my son because she was running out of time and didn't have supplies needed to get the team up and running".

“TTP” – I see your point but I’m not sure how I would have described the event any differently. She was frantic, in tears in a public setting, etc. But… I’ve got to dig a little deeper in this area though because this is probably where she feels I haven’t supported her emotionally, although in this particular case I think I did, but generally, not so much.

“25” - "All negative emotion has been removed from my interactions with W. Only positive interactions".

Great!! That's a truly amazing feat to ever achieve, let alone in such a short time. But if it's ALL positive, why are you so afraid or anxious? Why aren't you feeling calm and reassured?

Sounds like things are great with you two. Seriously. What's the problem if all is well? B/c she seems happier? Why isn't that good?

“2TP” – Things are not great. When I say that all negative emotion has been removed from my interactions, I’m talking about keeping the tears in check, no mopeing even though inside I’m in knots, no arguments, etc. While my W may seem happier, even though she probably isn’t, it is because she is detached as I think you put it previously and that makes me very sad and fearful for the future. I’d love to see my W happy, but under different circumstances.

“25” - First, you've only been at this for weeks, so how long can it have been?

But more importantly, The more people who know, the harder it is for HER to retract. The more who know of her pending choices, the more she must explain them (which tends to cement them).

You want to keep the road home, paved and smooth.

If she's not pushing for disclosure, you should be glad. It's a positive.

My advice remains the same. I know limbo is hard; I did it for 2 years. But being rejected or having rejection confirmed, is harder.

And the more you confirm it, the more solidified it gets and it's just harder to turn it around.

“2TP” – This is all very good advice, some of which I hadn’t considered.

“25” - Don't freak out with my next question, instead use it for yourself/situation and learn... but do you feel "judged" when your wife, or people in general, ask you questions that make you uncomfortable?

When you feel judged, do you react with them as you did w/me here? B/C you insulted me, and if we were friends, I'd have been offended. But that leads me to wondering if you do that with her.

Do you insult or lash out at her when you feel insecure? Do you feel "attacked" when she asks questions that are disquieting or you feel uncomfortable? Then what do you do?

“2TP” – Yes, sometimes I feel judged when asked questions that make me uncomfortable. This is another area for me to focus on.
I did not intend to insult you and I’m sorry you felt that way. Your 2x4 was not expected and my nose was a little bloody and out of joint after reading your post that prompted my response.

No, I don’t think I feel attacked when my W asks questions that are disquieting and I don’t think I lash out at her. At least not intentionally. Perhaps though, if you think there maybe something there, there then I will need to probe a little and see what I find.


So that's what I've got for tonight.

There is one other thing that was a bit of an epiphany for me today. I was helping a friend build one of those pre-fab cabinets and had the thing almost completely finished when he asked me if I had used any glue. I told him no because none was included in the packaging and the instructions didn't call for it. He suggested we take it apart and glue it anyway. Well apparently I gave him some kind of look for which he responded "I'm surprised your wife hasn't kicked you out of the house". I said why do you say that and he said that when you don't want to do something, you get "that look".

OUCH!!! Got tackle that one!

[2thepoint]

A little depressed today. Continued search for apartment and was surprised how sad it makes me feel. Sad for the circumstances that has lead me to this point, sad that I feel like a complete loser, sad that I am moving away from W and kids. Apartment living is going to be a real drag. Maybe that is what it will take for me to get my life into perspective, but it really is a bummer!

W is getting ready for her long spa weekend (4 days) and she seems pretty pumped. Makes me jealous and sad at the same time. Will she be spending time with OM? Will she be having fun while I am in tears?

Spoke with my sister last week to talk about my situation and am disappointed that she hasn't called me to see how I am doing. Maybe that is selfish of me to think that my family should be concerned for my well being.

I know, a lot of self pity here. I just need to put it in writing then out of my head!