It's Over 2

[♪CS♪]

But more to the point. You have to forgive her for YOURSELF. Because regardless of whether you want the M, if you don't deal with it - other than anger- it will follow you around the rest of your life. Without forgiveness you will never let it go.

Out of everything going on, ^^^ this is really #1.

And 9's post above is GREAT.

Don't put the cart in front of the horse.

Forgiveness first, regardless of what you decide for your M.

[Starsky309]

UPDATE...

So, when I last updated, my W had gone onto our online cell phone account and disabled my cell phone. Our 'family' plan is in her name, so she has control over it, but payments come out of my credit card.

So a couple of things that happened before she did this.

1) We had gone 3 days without any contact at all ... since the OM on toilet event.

2) She posted on FB (Friday afternoon at lunch) "Almost have my classroom packed up. Then the house. Fun! I love moving. Ugg!" Not sure if this meant anything whatsoever, but it is weird for her to post on FB much at all, and then to post that about packing up her house... on her lunch? I don't know. Maybe in my head, but seemed meant for me.

3) Posted again on FB (Friday afternoon) ... posted her horoscope (very strange for W do this and for some reason it seemed important):

"Take a step back, or at least closer to home. Your energy isn't quite right for taking bold action, but if you regroup and recharge for a couple of days, you should be back in fighting shape."

4) Shortly after that post, she called my cell phone 8 times. I did not answer.

On the last call, she left me the following voice mail:

"Hi. Since you are acting like you are 5 and you are avoiding my phone calls or possibly forgot how to use your cell phone. I'm giong to go ahead and disable your cell phone line so that your phone is no longer working. If you'd like to reach me YOU KNOW HOW TO FIND ME since you stalk me. Or you can give me a call before I disable your phone and you don't have any use of it anyway. Cause that's what I'm going to do. I'm the one that has permission to make changes on our cell phone and if you're going to avoid me and ignore me when I need information on our taxes and information of that sort then I will make your life miserable in the meantime. So hopefully you will get in touch with me and you won't lose any of your business calls and won't miss your phone too much. Thank you . Goodbye."

She was very much a b!tch in that message. I didn't get it until I received an email a bit later telling me that my cell phone was disabled.

I thought about what to do, posted here, talked to a few other friends about it, and checked into getting a new cell phone. Ultimately, I decided to call W about it from my home line.

I called W but she did not answer. I left her a very calm message telling her that I needed to talk to her about my cell phone, that I had emailed her the tax info, that I hoped that she received it, and that she had received a certified letter in the mail which I had put in our mailbox.

She did not call me back.

I got ready to go out to meet some buddies. I decided to drop by her house to talk to W if she was home. Her VM had told me 'you know where to find me', so I took that as an invitation.

I've tried to remember as much of the following 2 hours conversation with W as I can. I'm not as good as some (2Step shoutout) at remembering these conversations verbatim. I've quoted the things that I remember very clearly and summarized other parts.

I arrived and rang the doorbell. W answered the door. I told her that we needed to talk about my cell phone. That I needed her to reactivate it. She told me "since you decided to act like a 5 year old by not answering my calls when I needed to talk to you about taxes and things that I need, I decided to act like a 5 year old too." She was not yelling, but had a firm and p!ssed off tone. I was not surprised.

I told W that I had emailed her the tax documents and thought that I had taken care of what she needed. She told me that she needed other things that she had never mentioned in any of her text or voice messages. I told her that I would be happy to get those things for her, but I needed my cell phone reactivated.

I then told her, 'I don't want to talk to you right now. That is why I'm not answering your calls or texts. I need some space."

W: "I figured that. I was just waiting to be served with divorce papers in the middle teaching one of my classes. I wouldn't put it past you."

Me: "Well, I don't know about that. I just don't want to talk to you right now."

I said, 'I don't think that I was very clear the other day, so I want to make it very clear now. I don't want to be a part of your life as long as OM, or any OMs, are in your life.... I want no part of it.'

W said, 'well, I want to see D while she is here in July.' (My D will be visiting me for the month of July)

I said, 'I don't know about that.'

W: 'That's bullsh!t. I let you continue to see SS all through this.'

ME: 'Well, I'm much closer to SS than you are to D.'

W: 'That's not true. In fact, she spends more time with me when she is here than with you.'

I did not respond.

W had to go inside the house to do something with the dinner that she was making for SS.

She came back out. SS came out with her. He gave me a big hug and told me that he wanted to show me something. He went back inside and then came back with some pictures that he had drawn. He showed me the pictures and then told me goodbye.

------------ The convo resumed

W then said, "Well, like I said the other day, I had made a decision about my life before what happened on Tuesday. I had already decided that I was going to spend June by myself. Without you, SS, or OM. I thought that I would spend a lot of July with you and your D while she's here visiting. And then see what happens."

W then said, "OM knew that. And he knew that I was leaning towards working on us after that."

W: "but that was before you had to come over here and act like such a typical man... a typical guy."

Me: "Well I am a man W. And most people would have done the exact same thing as me. I think that if you think about it, you would realize that you would have done the same thing."

Me: "Besides, I think that I handled it pretty well considering. Aren't you at all surprised about how calmly I dealt with it."

W: "No. I think that you had your law license to protect. I think that's why you didn't do anything else."

Me: "Well, I'm sure that's part of it. But not all. I've worked really hard to learn how to deal with conflict in a calmer way W."

I then reiterated that I did not want to be a part of her life as long as OM was part of it.

W: "Well, I'm not going to be seeing OM anymore"

Me - "Why now W"

W: "Bc I don't want what happened the other day in my life. I don't want SS to have to deal with this anymore. It's not good for him. Did you even think about him before you did what you did?"

W: "And I had already decided that before what happened."

Me: "You are the one that has put SS in this position W."

W: "I need some time to just be by myself to figure out what I want for my life."

W: "I don't have hundreds of people supporting me like you do!" (W was referring to all of you here on this board and my BITS on alt).

Me: "I know."

----- (gap bc I don't remember how the conversation transitioned)

W: "I didn't have sex with OM that night. We've only been really talking again for the past 2 weeks"

Me: "Ok. Have you had sex with him in the past 2 weeks?"

W: Silence... "yes."

Me (with face in my hands): "Well, that's great then that you didn't this particular night W."

Me: "I don't know if I can forgive you for this."

W (angry for first time) "I don't give a sh!t if YOU can forgive me. I don't need your forgiveness."

W: "You want to talk about adultery or being unfaithful... you were unfaithful to me long before I EVER did anything. Go look at your bible and see if you think that looking at porn and going to strip clubs is being unfaithful!"

Me: "I know. You are right about that. I've apologized a billion times for that. I know that it was wrong of me to do those things."

Pause in convo

Me: "Do you know how much it hurts me to hear this?"

W: "I guess that I can see why it would hurt you. But I don't really understand it. You never wanted me when we were together. We went months without having sex before I left. You slept on the couch for months. Our entire R was like that. Do you remember when I was close with C (another friend of her's)?"

Me: "Yes. Like 5 years ago."

W: "Yeah, 4 or 5 years ago. He and I used to talk about how you and I didn't have sex that often. He didn't understand it at all."

Me: "I think that we went in spurts W."

W: "No. You didn't want me Denver. And now that someone else does, you all of a sudden decide that you do."

Me: "I know W. I know that we had issues. I also now know a lot of what caused some of those problems."

It was somewhere in the above portion our our convo that W mentioned something that I posed on FB a week or so ago.

W: It's like that post of your's on FB

Me: Which one?

W: The one about the consequences of your choices.

This was the post (via Truegritter):

"You always experience the consequences of your acts.
If your acts are right, you'll get good consequences.
If not, you will suffer for it.
Right or wrong it is in your hands.
But at the end, all the acts sum up as your life"

------ GAP in convo ... again don't remember transition.

W: "Besides, it isn't about the sex for women Denver. You know that."

Me: "I know. So what? Are you saying that you love OM?"

W: "I don't love him."

W: "I have a weakness for OM. He makes me feel good about myself. He was really good to us (W and SS) when things were bad."

W: "He makes me feel that I am out of his league, that he is lucky to be with me. You always made me feel that you were out of my league and that I was lucky to be with you. It is nice to be on the other side Denver."

W: "We have fun together. He reminds me that I can have fun, that I can be loved. That there is life without you."

W: "Had I been stronger, I would never have gotten involved with him. But I wasn't."

W: "I have to be the one to end it. He won't. I'm not saying he isn't respecting my wishes. He is. But I have to be the one to end it."

W: "I don't want to hurt OM but he's going to continue to get hurt."

Me: "Yeah. I'm not too concerned about you ending up with OM. You seem to agree?"

W: "It is highly unlikely that I would end up with OM."

W: "Why do you say that it is highly unlikely that I'd end up with him?"

Me: "Bc you are are SO much better than that W. So much better than him."

W: "Why? Bc he doesn't make any money?"

Me: "Well, yeah. That, and the fact that he has no morals whatsoever. I mean, who would allow themselves to get involved with a married woman?"

W: "You would do the same thing... if you were in his position and met a woman who you thought that you really liked... who was special."

Me: "NO. I WOULDN'T."

Me: "And after seeing how he was when I found him sitting on your toilet ... well..."

W (with a bit of laughter): "You're the one that has to live with that image for the rest of your life. Not me."

Pause in convo.

Me: "You know W, I f'ing hate the guy..."

W (interrupting me): "Well I didn't expect that you were going to like him."

Me: "No, I know. I hate the guy. But I am grateful for him. He has reminded me of how you deserve to be treated." (I don't entirely believe that I feel this way right now, but can see myself coming to be grateful someday - nickel to Jack ... got this from one of his posts on my thread a while back)

W didn't respond to this. I think that she was surprised that I had it in me to say something like that.

--------- GAP (again don't remember transition)

somewhere around here my cell phone rang.

Me: "did you reactivate my cell phone?"

W: "Yes."

(she must have done it when she went into the house earlier)

The convo resumed.

W: "I don't trust you Denver. You have always had wondering eyes."

W: "You have tons of women on FB who I have no clue as to who they are."

Me: "I told you that I would go through every single friend of mine on FB and answer any question that you have and remove anyone who makes you uncomfortable."

W: "Have you done that? No."

Me: "No, I haven't. But I told you that we could sit down and go through it. We haven't done that."

Me: "And some of them are friends of mine that are going through similar things that I am going through now with you."

W: "Are those the women that I see you posting to now?"

Me: "Yes, they are. They are friends. They are not all women. And we are all helping each other through this. They encourage me and support me, but they also tell me when I am wrong and tell me things about how I treated you poorly."

Pause in convo

W: "You have always had to have ex-girlfriends remain in your life."

Me: "I know. Again, I've apologized for how I handled that. I don't even have contact with M at all and with C only when I see her in court... which is very rarely."

I AGAIN validated W's feelings on all of this, but don't remember exactly what I said.

Me: "Well, I think that we now have trust issues on both sides now."

W: "Well, maybe that's a good thing!"

------ GAP in convo... not sure about transition

W went into a lot of the stuff that she has repeated to me, and I have posted about, multiple times. Complaints about me that are mostly true... those that I have apologized for a million times.

W: "I think about those things and then I think that if I come back to you, it will just be a matter of time before they are happening again... before you are sleeping on the couch again."

Me: "Those things won't happen again W. I've learned so much since you left. And I was depressed W."

Then W started talking as if she IS coming back eventually...

W: "I'm not going to be a housewife Denver."

Me: "I don't want you to be a housewife W. I never did. I know how you perceived that I did. I just don't know how we got to that point."

W: "You did before I left."

Me: "No. I never did. That's not what I wanted from you."

Me: "I've never want to stifle or hold you back W. I've always wanted you to have your friends. To go out and have your girl nights. I've always tried to support your music. Even at the end, I never wanted that and don't feel that I did."

W: "And you know that I am not the same as I was before I left. How are you going to deal with that?"

Me: "Well, I don't want things to be the same."

Pause in convo

Me: "I just want us to start treating each other well. To start loving each other like we should. I don't know W."

W: "And the first time that we fight, I know that you're going to bring all of this up."

Me: "What?"

W: "The first time that you get mad, you're going to tell me 'at least I didn't sleep with anyone else' or something."

Me: "NO. I won't. I know better. I've had it hammered into me that I can't do that. That it wouldn't be fair to you OR me to do that. Besides, this is something that, once it is dealt with, has to go into a locked box and put someplace far back in my mind. That's something that I know can't happen W."

------- GAP in convo

We talked about W moving. She told me that she needs to find a place and move by June 22nd bc she is going to southern Colorado to visit a friend for a few days and then to Philadelphia to visit another friend.

I asked her where she was going to move. She said that she didn't know yet. That it would probably be an apartment bc she can't find a house that she can afford. That it might be close to the school that she teaches at so that she can get SS into that school.

Me: "so you're going to sign a lease?"

W: "Well, yeah. I don't know of any places that won't make me sign a lease."

Me (shaking my head): "I hate to see you have to sign a lease and waste more money"

W: "Denver, It wouldn't be right for me to move back into that (our) house right now."

Me: "I know. But what about just staying here (the house that she's in now)?

W: "I can't afford it. It is destroying me financially."

Me: "I know."

W: "How about you move someplace else for a while and let me move back to the house?"

Me (chuckling quietly): "I don't think so W."

-------- GAP in convo

I told W that I needed to go bc I was suppose to meet some friends out.

W: "You sure do go out a lot since I left."

Me: "What do you expect me to do, sit at home and cry?"

W: "No. I don't expect that."

(as all of you know, I actually have sat at home and cried for much of the past 6 months... at least W apparently doesn't believe that I have! LOL)

Me: "Well, I'm going to go."

W: "Okay. So I'm just going to take some time for myself in June. Then we'll talk?"

Me: "Okay. That's fine. But I just want to say it again W, I do not want to be a part of this if OM is in your life. I have to say that again."

W: "I have no intention on that (renewing dating OM). I will let you know if that changes."

Me: "Okay."

-------

I got up (we had been sitting on her front porch) and began to walk towards the steps. W got up too.

It seems that she came closer and was expecting a hug, but I could be wrong.

I didn't move close or in to hug her. I continued on and walked to my car. I didn't look back or wave to her.

--------

I have been completely dark with W for 4 days now. SS called me today to see if he can see me before he travels to California to visit his dad in a couple of weeks.

W has been posting daily on FB. I'm not sure if it means anything, but the posts are about what she is doing... almost like she's trying to tell me 'hey this is what I am doing. I'm not with OM.'

I don't know. Probably just me making that up.

Today she posted that she was done with school for the summer and 'now time for some me time!'

---------

I am not 100% convinced that I still want to reconcile my M.

The fact that she resumed her A with OM has been a blow to what I have worked for here for 6+ months now.

I do still love my W... but I'm just not sure that I can forgive her for this.

And there is a part of me that wonders if I did continue to fight, would it be just to win... like my W says, I don't like to lose. It is something that I will continue to think about for the next 3+ weeks.

I do feel that what happened last Tuesday (OM on toilet event) is something that had to happen. I still don't regret having done what I did in the slightest.

I feel that I have evened the footing between W and I ... that I have gained the high ground so to speak. That I don't need to let W treat me like sh!t just bc I f'd up so badly in our M.

I feel that I will be okay if W chooses not to work on M (assuming that I decide that is still what I want). That I will be able to walk away knowing that I tried to fix the things that I screwed up so badly before.

I feel stronger than I have at any other point during this ordeal.

Thanks everyone for your support, your time in reading all of this (I know that it's like an episode of Jerry Springer)... and for your interest in my life.

I really do hope to pay it forward someday when I am in a better place.

Denver

What part of "go completely dark" didn't you understand, Denver?

Why ask everyone what to do about your cellphone (everyone aid "just get your own"), if you're just going to do what FEELS right to you, and go back and beg your wife to turn it back on?

I found the entire exchange to be weak and SUPPLICATING. Your wife is looking for you to stand up to her b.s., and you're continuing to talk talk talk TALK.

So many words.

Less words, more ACTIONS. Be a man of succinct, powerful, honorable CONVICTIONS. I already believe you ARE that man. You just seem incapable of showing that side to your WIFE (I have a hard time with that, too).

Starsky

[Queen_of_Swords]

On the whole Denver, your conversation with W looks pretty good. You had a from the gut, honest conversation.
You both appear harbour a lot of resentment and hurt that needs to be addressed, IMO. Time, all in time.

If I may suggest something that you may find useful in your journey?
I have just finished the book " Hold Me Tight" by Sue Johnson, it's been recommended by others here at various times. (Thank you to those who have given out the title before me!)
Seriously, it has blown me away with how it gets to the heart of our hurts and grievances and eliminates the "stuff" surrounding major points of argument and hard feelings between us and those we love the most.
Perhaps it will help you back to a fulfilling R with your W, or at least give you an understanding you did not have before.

IMO, you've done well Denver. At the end I think you can be very proud of the new person you've worked so hard to become.

[thatgirl007]

((Denver))

I know what you're going through is tough. And I think you've gotten some really good advice here over all. I just want to chime in from a W's perspective.

When I read your interactions with your wife, I could so easily identify with your wife's feelings/words/sentiments. I have been in her position in my M. I was the ignored, the devalued, the one who was treated as less than. I even got chills when she talked about the FB issues, because I've been there and done that, bought the t-shirt Of course, my H went a step further and cheated, then left, adding an extra crunchy layer of goodness to my sitch.

One of the things that I have tried my hardest not to do, is not to engage with another man. Not just because of my marriage vows, but because I knew that when I truly engaged in any type of R with another man, it would make it that much harder to ever reconcile with my H. Because being treated differently (better) than the way he treated me would lessen him so much in my eyes. So, I can see where your W is coming from. When you've been mistreated to the point where you actually let go of your R enough to let another person into your heart or bed or whatever, it takes a boatload of work to get back on a page where you're recommitted to being with your S - and those uncertainties that she's expressed to you, I don't know if you truly, truly fathom how deep they run.

Six months of getting back on a page where you treat her the way that any wife should be treated does not even scratch the surface of the years, the intrinsic devaluing that occurs when you're systematically mistreated for such a stretch of time. And I promise you that while you have recommitted and worked for 6 months, your W has simply been trying to get to a point where she can even buy into the changes, where she can even think that you might have changed and not scoff at the thought. Because when you build up hope again and again and again in your H and he crushes it again and again and again, you develop a thick skin, a protective doubt, a conditioned response to even the slightest, grainiest seed of hope. You are taught that when you hope, you will be disappointed. When you try, you will fail. You are taught that you will never be what he wants and it is hard to shake what you have come to believe is reality.

And for the changes that you've made to have come only when she walked away and OM became competition, I can definitely see how she can doubly doubt that you truly want to be in a M with her, and not just to win.

Even you today say that you are not sure that you don't just want to win.

Step 1 - figure that sh!t out ASAP. Because if you actually do manage to convince her that you really do want her and really have recommitted to her and you actually just want to win, you'll put her through hell.

[MrBond]

D,

Your interactions with your W were great. They were honest and they were thoughtful. One thing after reading what happened is that the two of you are communicating like a typical male and female would. It's time for her to start understanding that.

Also, I do understand about how your years of checking out porn, etc. could be damaging to her, but let's face it. She actually went out and did the thing she was afraid you would do. SHE was the one who went over that boundary. NOT YOU.

Sure with the porn it was a quick fix or whatever, but alot of it was her insecurities of you cheating on her. She was worried about the "fantasy" of you cheating on her. But she was the one who ultimately crossed that line.

You are a person of high value because you are a man of integrity. She has to be the one pursuing you, not the other way around.

[25yearsmlc]

thatgirl's words...


do they ring hollow---or do they ring true?


there's valuable gems in her post.

[Denver_2010]

Thatgirl - GREAT post. Thank you so much for your perspective. I want to respond to it more thoroughly, but don't have time right now. I just had to thank you though.

BITS
Denver

[shannon2011]

Wow-beautifully said. I can see where my H has not jumped on the Recommitment train yet.

Denver, I have been following your post closely. Don't give up-you are allowed to have some second thoughts as you get closer to possible reconciliation (the section on infidelity in DR is really good and discusses this). You have to give yourself some time to really process these emotions or even if she comes back, you will unload on her. I still feel betrayed by the fact that my H has left (and did so while my son was 5months old) and I seem fixated on readdressing this (at least in my head) everytime I interact with him or discuss this with family. I am going to have to let this go if I have any chance of moving forward, whether it is with him or another R.

Hope this helps....I know that no one knows me yet but I have followed all of you and you are doing really well. You are at mile 22-don't give up now....ONly 4 miles to go

Shannon

[Harrier]

You are a person of high value because you are a man of integrity.

You do realize he is an attorney.

[spellfire]

Denver,

Ah its a shame you needed to talk to her when she shut down your phone. Her ability to keep reeling you back in is working against you.

Her believing you are truly done had her scrambling (hence all the calls), but once she shut down your phone (manipulation) you confirmed she still has a tight grip on you by calling her and going to see her.

Definitely agree there is a constant power struggle going on and she is constantly testing you for congruency with your stated changes/intentions. ie You: "I am done, I am moving on" Her: *oh yeah we will see about that! (test test test test)*

The conversation was at least well carried out, nice work there.

I would say the "I'm moving on now" attitude is working based on her response to it.

Now would be a good time to GAL your ass off. If you can convince her by your actions you are in fact still moving on, I think you can reel HER back in. Some FB updates of your own about what you are doing, and how you are having a GREAT time doing it probably wouldnt hurt. Now she needs to feel like she is missing out on all the things you are doing.