The Sex and Intimacy is Missing!

[bob48]

I have heard of many women who have faced this issue. What is not clear to me is whether you are upset that your husband is attracted to porn or that he is not giving you the attention you desire and deserve.

Some women view porn as the equivalent of adultery. I think that is misguided. But if a man believes that you view porn that way, he will probably keep his activities secret.

The worst part about porn is that it can seem so convenient and allow the user so much control over their sexuality, that it can make real sex seem complicated and burdensome.

While many women think that men look at porn because they find the women in them more attractive, I believe that the attraction is more a matter of control. They can imagine these women doing just what they (husband) wants them to do and when they want to do it.

I have heard that many women have had some success sharing their porn experiences with their wives. Is there any problem with the two of you looking at porn together? If he begins to sense that you share some of the same sexual excitement, you may find that you will rediscover your initial enthusiasm.

after we were married for less than the first year I suspected him doing something on his computer..he would close windows as soon as I walked into the office..well low and behold I found out a lot about my husband..he was a porn addict..been doing this for years..also he goes through vaseline like its candy..anyhow that was 5 years ago..we have sought counseling..books..and more..and the anger in me is building up even more..I am yearning for physical and emotional connection with my husband..but it's not there..I have told him that I have been contemplating moving into our spare bedroom or leaving..he keeps saying things will get better..but after 8 years of the same talk and behavior..what does one do..the importance of this lack of physical and emotional part of our marriage just isn't there..what does one do?

[25yearsmlc]

I'm not going to say adultery is fine. I mean, we're on a site called Div Busting so Bob, have you read the books? It's NOT into open m's. And I don't think many m's would survive an ongoing A.

As for porn, I think there are 2 schools of thought among my girlfriends and sisters. On one hand, I have a friend who says, "I don't care where my h gets his appetite, as long as he comes home for dinner." In HER Situation her h and she both had similar sex drives and she was fine with it, but they had sex!

The other view is women who feel threatened. My h and I have not had the porn issue (that I know of). But I have to say, I'd probably feel threatened by it in 3 ways, I THINK...1) I'd feel comparatively unattractive since most women in porn have perfect bodies and no stretch marks from childbirth. Watching it is not a turn on to me, mainly b/c it's all about the women and I"m not attracted to other women. (Plus the dialogue is so bad, I usually laugh, and there are some that just freak me out b/c they are sooo, violent or demeaning to women. I guess there are some porn films not like that, but...)

And 2) I'd worry that maybe h was thinking of them, instead of me/us, while we were ML....do you get why that would bother me?

AND 3) if my h were using porn INSTEAD of ml to me, I'd feel he was being selfish. He'd deny ME, but serve himself? Geez, that's a huge turn off. Seems lazy and sooo not loving. It would be a red flag to me.

But I agree that any spouse who withholds sex from their partner for long periods of time, without some medical excuse, is taking a big risk. I have a friend who lost her h to an OW and was so sad. She told me she "knew there were SOME issues in their SL, but didn't know he was so unhappy." Turns out they had not had sex in 4 years...Wow, I had to ask her what she thought would happen after no sex for 4 years. She was devastated b/c she genuinely didn't seem to know how important it was to her h and I wonder if he really didn't tell her enough. She sure was shocked.

I think the spouse who feels "unattended to" has to explore other options, OTHER than adultery. To me at least. And for DB purposes.

ALso, what about when men face ED? Some of them cannot take viagra b/c of heart issues. Or they simply don't know that their w's are affected by their "in between" status...What would you say to the wife of that man? And what about the man who "needs" viagra, but hasn't made the effort? How can a woman gently suggest that her h pursue some aids, b/c it's very awkward for her. At first she'll think it's her fault, eg she's less desirable to him, or she'll fear he's having an A, but if the h is decent, he'll reassure her. Still, what's she to do?

As for menopause and libido in women, I can tell you that after the birth of our 3rd child, at the age of 37, for whatever reason, I completely lost my sex drive. This bothered me a lot. We still ML b/c I love the intimacy.

But after maybe over a year or so, it came back, thank God. While it was going on, I initiated ML much less, but I did not deny my h that, b/c even when the libido is low or gone, the desire for touch, and intimacy remained.

Can you give your w's back rubs without reciprocity? Foot rubs? Something without pressure? I think it can lead to the desire for more physical intimacy on the w's part and at least you'd be touching...

Today, I find I am working hard to get back to where I once was, in terms of libido. Here's my problem, I have libido but it's harder to access. My "engine" takes longer to turn over and get warmed up, so to speak. But once it's warmed up, It runs just FINE!...I have explained to h that I need more time to "warm up the engine" but he gets impatient. (I'm not talking more than 15-20 min, fyi) I think it's b/c HE is having issues physically too. And b/c it takes longer and we don't always have the time to make it good, I end up feeling less interested.

I will say that sex isn't just about a physical release. It can be celebratory (like at your kids' college graduation or wedding), comforting, (like when my mil died) forgiving or apologizing, after an argument, or just to connect. I mean, the lusty physical release is less frequent for many women, but there are all those other "Functions" of sex. Connecting...
I am on hormones b/c I want to feel like I used to. It's helped some. I have gf's who won't go on hormones b/c of cancer risks....I don't blame them.
But it is a legitimate issue for debate.

I wish I had answers for you all. But as for porn, that's my .02.

[bob48]

dear 25: First and foremost, I am not advocating "adultery", at least not in the sense of cheating. Cheating is wrong in poker and wrong in sex. What I am suggesting is that the possibility of a more open relationship can and should be discussed. It's an option, not a directive. And having an open relationship with rules that both parties can live with is a hell of a lot better than divorce.

As for porn - hmmm. Well, let's put it this way, if you are married to a man then chances are you are married to someone who enjoys porn to some extent.

While porn CAN become a substitute for sex, it can also be an instigator of sex. I find it amusing that some women claim that pornography causes sexual crimes while other women say that men use porn to replace their wives. Bit of a contradiction.

I think porn is a perfectly acceptable form of recreation. I also think that it is a bit of a stretch to think that your husband needs to think about you when he's having sex. I am more of a pragmatist (which I think is a very DB point of view). If it works, then do it. If your husband is choosing to have sex with you, then he's thinking of you quite enough. Controlling his thoughts steps over the line.

Some people have had their sex lives boosted by porn - especially if both h & w condone, accept and even better participate in it. Does that ignore the fact that some people become obsessed with it? No - not any more than the enjoyment of a candy bar refute the fact that there are people who eat too much candy.

Yes, men too have their issues with sex. E.D. can be a very difficult problem. But, as one prominent psychologist and marriage counselor wrote - if you can't get your penis hard, you shouldn't have the same problem with your finger. I can satisfy my wife completely (and frequently do) without ever having traditional intercourse.

So, the issue is, does one want to save their marriage, and do they love the person they are with enough to make the kind of changes that they need to make? Are they willing to cast off old notions of right and wrong in order to fulfill each other's needs?

As for your husband not willing to take 15 minutes or so? Sorry, I don't buy his excuses at all. Personally, I think that if he's not interested in spending 15 or 20 minutes bringing you up to speed, then it's time to lay down the law. You deserve the time and attention.

bob

[25yearsmlc]

Bob48,

Hmm, I am not really posting here except I thought you guys wanted some female input. Did you read my note in full? I said there were 2 schools of thought on porn and you only addressed the latter. I am sure my h enjoys some porn and I am mainly of the first school of thought ("as long as he comes home for dinner"). I don't mind him looking at it, within reason, whatever that means. I admit however that porn doesn't turn me on, partly bc I review films and the "dialogue"...never mind. But I think we all have some insecurities about our bodies and when a 20 y/o is there and in some cases, ONLY THEN do the h's show interest, of course that feels threatening to some women.

Rather than judging the feelings, or arguing about why they're wrong to feel that way, why not simply take in the information as being one woman's views?

I didn't say I wanted to control my h's thoughts while ML. How'd you get that out of my words? I just admitted the fears many women have. I do not think i can or should control his thoughts while ML... we all have fantasy lives. Enough said.

But what I think you are advocating is an open m, & it just isn't in line with DBing. That's my main point. This site is a DB site.

People might actually argue that divorce is better than an open m. Why? B/C SOME prefer monogamy and a stable safe family life, and an open m, arguably, prevents that b/c you can't meet someone new and monogamous.

Are you only advocating this for those who deny their spouses sex, or who have different sex drives, and or - for those who's partners cannot physically have sex?


Yes some friends say porn is an aid to their sex lives. But I've had friends who claim thats porn wrecked their sex lives b/c their h's with held from them, instead, they were getting their pleasure from porn NOT their wives. It was easier to just please themselves...yes I would mind that. You didn't address that. See, sure It's one thing to use it as an aid, quite another to use it as a substitute when you have a willing partner. Make sense?

As for my h, the reason he doesn't always do the 15-20 min, is b/c lately, he cannot...it's a developing problem I am concerned about. That was why I asked the question about how to raise this matter. I take the point about fingers, etc but if the man isn't ready to see that he's not what he used to be, he may not yet realize that we feel the difference...AND OR, some men won't go for it at all if the are not going to "get their cookies". I assume the Same goes for women I guess.

And for MY sitch, which I wasn't really wanting to get into here, I feel he is just entering an in between gray area where he usually is fine and like old times, but lately I have noticed his ability has been...diminished. He's mortified, and very sensitive b/c we have always had an active sex life and I know he's prided himself on being good in bed, and rightly so. He's only just confronting it now, I believe. So, we're in a delicate place but we laugh about the commercials, ("for those with erections over 4 hours", I SAY I'LL CALL MY FRIENDS. ..)

But we have realized that at SOME point, we're going to be older and still want to have a sex life...and I think we'll be willing to do what it takes. Problem is...getting closer in time. Not a decade from now.
Also I talk about my doctor visits with the idea that I'm saying "hey, I am doing what I can do, to be as active and enjoyable as possible so...ahem." and he did mention the concept of a prescription the other day. I was enthusiastic but tactful, I think/hope.

Back to you, I asked about whether you had read the DB books. What do you think of their approach to this? (I think divorce Remedy had more info on it, as I recall). And your w?

[25yearsmlc]

just so I know, what's your signature block mean? Did you remarry your ex w or what?

[sbrass]

Thanks, Bob48. But I need help to understand quite what you're suggesting, when you say:

Sbrass -While you may want to tread carefully and slowly, opening up your relationship may offer some surprising opportunities. I know it's unconventional, and may have others on this board up in arms. But there have been many people (myself included) who have found that a well regulated opening of a relationship can revitalize someone's sex life. And at the very least, will give the one missing their sex life some kind of satisfaction without the guilt of cheating and without hurting the person they love.

I'm ready for the unconventional. But I confess that I'm seeing no hope of change for the better.

I'm still puzzled. We live in such sexualized societies; articles, programmes, films. I would have thought that any person without desire would be wondering what they're missing out on, and what they can do to catch up! One suspicion that I have - this is the first time I put it into words - is that my wife went through a long psycho-therapy, partly revolving around her desire to be free of lesbian tendencies or temptations. My fear is that her fear of lesbian desire has killed all desire.

[bob48]

Bob48,

Hmm, I am not really posting here except I thought you guys wanted some female input. Did you read my note in full? I said there were 2 schools of thought on porn and you only addressed the latter. I am sure my h enjoys some porn and I am mainly of the first school of thought ("as long as he comes home for dinner"). I don't mind him looking at it, within reason, whatever that means. I admit however that porn doesn't turn me on, partly bc I review films and the "dialogue"...never mind. But I think we all have some insecurities about our bodies and when a 20 y/o is there and in some cases, ONLY THEN do the h's show interest, of course that feels threatening to some women.

Firstly, yes, I have read almost all of Ms. Weiner-Davis' books, and loved them. I don't recall any of them addressing open marriages, but it's been a while since I've read them.

Porn, like food, candy, alcohol, sex, gambling, etc can add to your quality of life or destroy it - depending on how they are used. If someone is addicted to porn, and using it to avoid intimacy and sex with their spouse, then that is obviously a problem. But MOST people use porn constructively and it can be a very nice addition to a couple's sex life.

Rather than judging the feelings, or arguing about why they're wrong to feel that way, why not simply take in the information as being one woman's views?

I didn't say I wanted to control my h's thoughts while ML. How'd you get that out of my words? I just admitted the fears many women have. I do not think i can or should control his thoughts while ML... we all have fantasy lives. Enough said.

Ok, fair enough. I don't think it's appropriate to judge someone's feelings. However, feelings and beliefs/thoughts are two different things. You can't control your feelings, but you do get to decide what your beliefs are. If your husband is fantasizing about another woman while making love to you, it is still an act of love on your part to share in his pleasure, and an act of love on his part to take the time to give you pleasure. Some people need/want/enjoy fantasies when they are with their spouse to get the kind of pleasure out of making love that they are striving for.

I understand the insecurities you are referring to. If it helps you at all, let me tell you that my experience is that while seeing very attractive women having and enjoying sex is a turn on, that doesn't detract in the least from the excitement I feel in experiencing my wife's womanhood. I am lucky in that my wife is a very sexy woman with a very fit body, but my prior wife was far from that, and I still wanted her just as much. I think that you will find that most men who love their wives find them sexy and attractive despite their less than perfect bodies. And even my wife, as hot as she is, doesn't look like a porn star! But she looks that way to me, because I am very much in love with her.

People might actually argue that divorce is better than an open m. Why? B/C SOME prefer monogamy and a stable safe family life, and an open m, arguably, prevents that b/c you can't meet someone new and monogamous.

Are you only advocating this for those who deny their spouses sex, or who have different sex drives, and or - for those who's partners cannot physically have sex?

You misunderstand my comments about an open marriage. I didn't mean to suggest that having an open marriage shoved down your throat is better than a divorce. I advocate discussing it, and its MANY variations, and seeing if that will work for both parties.

I know that if I felt that I had a much lower sex life than my wife and saw that it really saddened her and upset her, I would be willing to discuss the possibility of her having an occasional fling to fulfill her, rather than for her to be emotionally impacted by my lack of interest.

Incidentally, most people who have experimented with open marriages in one of it's many forms have found that they have that their own sex life together had improved exponentially. Both my wife and I would agree that it had that impact with us.

So, under THOSE circumstances, I believe that an open relationship is better than divorce.

It also forces the person with less desire to confront the issue head on and understand that he/she needs to do something about it. I don't believe that any one has the right to hold their spouses sex life hostage. In my mind, it is just not acceptable to say, "I am not interested in sex, so you will no longer have sex with anyone."

Faced with the alternative of having some outside activities, within negotiated limits and respectful of the needs of the lower driven partner on one hand, and divorce on the other, I would think the former would be more in accord with DB beliefs, don't you?

And for MY sitch, which I wasn't really wanting to get into here, I feel he is just entering an in between gray area where he usually is fine and like old times, but lately I have noticed his ability has been...diminished. He's mortified, and very sensitive b/c we have always had an active sex life and I know he's prided himself on being good in bed, and rightly so.

Yes, your husband may need your help in understanding that some of his abilities may be declining. What he needs to know is that his tongue and fingers are just as thrilling to you as his erections were/are. Beyond that, it is a matter of time to adjust.

Back to you, I asked about whether you had read the DB books. What do you think of their approach to this? (I think divorce Remedy had more info on it, as I recall). And your w?

I think that a lot of the suggestions made in the DB books to deal with sexual dysfunction are excellent. I haven't had that kind of issue for the most part. My wife and I have an amazing sex life, which is further bolstered by some outside activities.

[Young at Heart]

.....But I confess that I'm seeing no hope of change for the better.

....One suspicion that I have - this is the first time I put it into words - is that my wife went through a long psycho-therapy, partly revolving around her desire to be free of lesbian tendencies or temptations. My fear is that her fear of lesbian desire has killed all desire.

There is an interesting book that my wife's sex therapist had her read and that my wife suggested that I read. It was titled Still Sexy After All These Years. It is a book that summarizes the interviews of literally thousands of women who were all over 50 in the US. It is about their libido's, and how they find love and intimacy as they age. It is scary (in the beginning) and uplifting (near the middle and end). You might want to get a copy from the library and read it.

Another thought, as corny as it may sound, is to not "give up hope." Being optimistic and visualizing success is (in my opinion) really important. One of the things that I like about MWD, her books and her approach is that she tries to get people to focus on the positive and give them hope through examples of one person being able to change the dynamics in a relationship so that the relationship is ultimately saved.

However, if you do finally give up hope, then figure out your own Plan B for moving on with your life.

Good luck to you.

[Young at Heart]

...As for my h, the reason he doesn't always do the 15-20 min, is b/c lately, he cannot...it's a developing problem I am concerned about. That was why I asked the question about how to raise this matter. I take the point about fingers, etc but if the man isn't ready to see that he's not what he used to be, he may not yet realize that we feel the difference...AND OR, some men won't go for it at all if the are not going to "get their cookies". I assume the Same goes for women I guess.

And for MY sitch, which I wasn't really wanting to get into here, I feel he is just entering an in between gray area where he usually is fine and like old times, but lately I have noticed his ability has been...diminished. He's mortified, and very sensitive b/c we have always had an active sex life and I know he's prided himself on being good in bed, and rightly so. He's only just confronting it now, I believe. So, we're in a delicate place but we laugh about the commercials, ("for those with erections over 4 hours", I SAY I'LL CALL MY FRIENDS. ..)

But we have realized that at SOME point, we're going to be older and still want to have a sex life...and I think we'll be willing to do what it takes. Problem is...getting closer in time. Not a decade from now.....

Wow, my heart goes out to you.

I so identify with your comment about wanting to get close now, prior to the aging process and health issues putting more stress on the relationship between a wife her husband.

I suggested the book Still Sexy After All These Years to sbass, I would also like to suggest it to you. It relays interviews with women who have lost husbands, whose husbands have become impotent, whose husbands minds have been lost to Alzheimers, and relays how those women have been able to incorporate sensuality, intimacy, and sometimes sexuality into their lives.

My SSM wife really didn't want to go to a doctor to get checked out. But after the battery of tests and a few surprises, she indicated that she was really glad as now she feels her health has been protected and she looks forward to many years with me. That is my way of saying to you to keep encouraging your husband to go to the doctor to get checked out. It could be a simple as low testosterone levels or as complicated as heart disease or type 2 diabetes. In any even, just about anything is better dealt with sooner rather than later.

Good luck to you and I hope you find the happiness you are looking for.

[25yearsmlc]

YAH,

I already consider myself to be happy, and happily m. I'm simply trying to anticipate what might happen if this worsens (it's not a "frequent" problem yet, but it went from NEVER happening to maybe 1/4 of the time and yes, he "compensates"). And I have also started back on hormonal therapy so I know I'm "doing my part"...

My question is how to encourage an h to explore things like Viagra, while he doesn't yet "need" it. Seems better than waiting til he's already upset. And btw, he recently had atrial fibrillation despite being a runner and in shape and military. This shocked us both. WTH? So I don't know how that will affect things. He's now on meds for it but it freaked us out as he had to be "paddled" into a regular rhythym...sheesh, this aging thing could stink big time.

But I'll get the book you suggested. Thanks