"The unexamined life is not worth living." Socrates said that at his trial for heresy. He was on trial for encouraging his students to challenge the accepted beliefs of the time and think for themselves. The sentence was death but Socrates had the option of suggesting an alternative punishment. He could have chosen life in prison or exile, and would likely have avoided death.
But Socrates believed that these alternatives would rob him of the only thing that made life useful... Examining the world around him and discussing how to make the world a better place. The result, of course, is that they had no alternative and were forced to vote for a punishment of death.
...
We can choose to examine ourselves and discuss how we make ourselves better people... better spouses.
OR
We can choose the easier alternative...
BITS Denver
M 43 X 38 T 13 W moves out of home 11/2010 Roller coaster from hell 2/2011-5/2012 I request divorce 5/2012 W moves home 6/2012 Good time 7/2012 - 1/2015 I leave 3/2016 process of divorce
You know what I find more interesting than everything you posted? The fact that you felt the need to confess everything before you told us that she had a PA. That says that you think you needed to protect her from us. To give an explanation, to take the heat for her. Not that she needed any protection from us!
I'm really glad that you pointed this out Hope as I had not consciously intended for my post to act as protection for my W. After I read this, I realized that this is indeed exactly what I was doing... subconsciously. The fact is, I am ashamed of the state of my M. As my W said last night, "things are a mess" right now. I carry A LOT of culpability for this. I don't want ANYONE to judge my W without knowing all of the facts.
Originally Posted By: hope2011
You do love her, Denver. You fought to be here, to have her want to try to save the M. You fought to change yourself for her. Right now you have a real shot of not only saving the M, but having a wonderful one where you both take responsibility, both give 100%, both put each other first. I know you've got that big male ego you keep telling me share with my H... but don't let it get in the way here. Don't let it destroy all your hard work because that is what will happen if you decide not to try now that you're so close. Your ego will get in the way. You worked so hard for her to want you again and now that you've got her on the line are you going to be the man that says "oh, I made you change your mind, now I can walk away with my ego" or are you going to be the man that says "I f'd up. You f'd up. We're human, we messed up. But you're still the woman who stood by me for all those years when I was an idiot until I pushed you so far away that you didn't see a way back. Now I'm pulling you back because I need you, I love you. I want to spend the rest of my life being so incredible, such a great husband to you that you'll never want to leave again, you'll never be in the position to even have to think about moving on with an OW". Be THAT guy, Denver!
I'm bordering on that decision, acting like the first guy with all ego and trust issues and thinking of me, me, me. I'm an idiot. Don't be an idiot like me. Because darn it, if I have to push you into being the amazing H that you can be if only for the rest of us girls here to see some hope... I'll do it!!!!
He's a 2x4, hit yourself for us. Not for your mistakes but for hesitating on what to do here.
(((((((((((( hugs ))))))))))))
Give me all of the 2x4s you got. I think that you are right. I do love my W... more than anything... still.
BITS Denver
M 43 X 38 T 13 W moves out of home 11/2010 Roller coaster from hell 2/2011-5/2012 I request divorce 5/2012 W moves home 6/2012 Good time 7/2012 - 1/2015 I leave 3/2016 process of divorce
M 43 X 38 T 13 W moves out of home 11/2010 Roller coaster from hell 2/2011-5/2012 I request divorce 5/2012 W moves home 6/2012 Good time 7/2012 - 1/2015 I leave 3/2016 process of divorce
Your post, brought me to tears, for several reasons...
That does not happen to me often at all.
I agree with Mach's suggestion that you appear to have been in a "life transition" of your own for a while.
That is not something that goes away easily and honestly, I have a feeling that it was only the actual loss of your W that even began to really open your eyes.
You will not recover from any of this quickly or easily.
That is the bad news.
You can recover though.
That is the good news.
My H, could have typed those words out himself, during his first transition period. I know, because I was on the receiving end of just that. I finally followed through on my threat, and his suggestion, to be done.
That is what woke him up the first time. He never believed that I would actually do it either.
The difference, is he was not able to look at the WHY's that brought him to that place to begin with, so after several pretty good years, we went through a repeat of that same stuff, only much much worse.
The second time, I "stood" until I had myself together. Emotionally, because the damage that was done, was bad. And when I realized that he wasn't even beginning to look at himself more than superficially, I was done. It still took me some time, I kept looking for a sign either way, and I finally decided that I had given it all that I could. And I moved on and have started a new life.
Sometimes, I still see the sadness about it in his eyes...
I can't go back though. I won't.
I love him, I forgive him, but he has to figure himself out, and maybe someday, he can be a better H to someone than he was to me.
Don't put yourself or your W in that position. It isn't fair to either of you.
It truly is the hardest thing in the world I believe.
Can you forgive your W?
Can you forgive yourself?
Can you really be a better Denver?
Be the man that she deserved and wanted all along?
She seems willing to give you that opportunity...
She seems to be willing to try to forgive you...
Her actions...
were that of a person who was done and moving on.
She owed you no explanation really.
You told her to go...
and she did.
She was emotionally divorced from you.
I believe in God, and promises, and vows.
I have also lived through emotional divorce. There comes a point for a person, when the D papers, really are just that, papers. That is where your W was.
Anything that comes now, is new. A new friendship, a new relationship, and possibly, a new marriage. A vow renewal would definately be appropriate down the road. A recommitment to the vows that were so broken by both of you a long time ago.
Try to put this into a perspective that allows you to find that forgivness that you seem to want to find.
Denver, you MUST kill those demons that led you to where you were...
It is the ONLY way that you will NOT repeat those mistakes.
I promise you if you don't, you will be back there.
And I don't know if she would give you another chance again.
It isn't enough to want to be better.
It isn't enough to try to be better.
You have to become better.
If you can't do that...
then attempting reconciliation, is wasted time.
She is giving you an opportunity....
that not a lot of people get.
Don't blow it.
Answer Mach's questions...
not for him...
but for you... (and for your W)
Wow... Just wow...
Thank you Cat. Your explanation of what you call an 'emotional divorce' is exactly what my W described to me when she was telling me how she felt when she left me in November. To her, she was D'd from me. She said exactly what you wrote... that she was 'done' when she left and that she was 'moving on' with her life. The legal D was just paperwork. In fact, she told me that the only reason that she did not file for D right away is bc she could not afford it.
I took this explanation as W just justifying her 'dating' OM. I did not think of it in these terms.
The only question that leaves me with is this... if an 'emotional divorce' is all that is needed to relieve someone from living up to their marriage vows, then why do we have marriage at all? Why not just an "emotional marriage"? I mean, I guess these are all really just words that we use... but what do M vows mean if it is as simple to say... "I'm now divorced so I don't have to live up to what I promised you" ??
I don't ask you this to argue... I am working on accepting where my W was emotionally, mentally, and spiritually when she left me. I'm trying to understand for myself and, hopefully, for my M going forward.
I know that I did not REALLY consider what my M vows meant UNTIL my W left. And I probably did break some of them during my M by treating my W the way that I did.
But now, those vows mean very much to me. I want them to mean something. I want them to mean something to my W.
M 43 X 38 T 13 W moves out of home 11/2010 Roller coaster from hell 2/2011-5/2012 I request divorce 5/2012 W moves home 6/2012 Good time 7/2012 - 1/2015 I leave 3/2016 process of divorce
The only question that leaves me with is this... if an 'emotional divorce' is all that is needed to relieve someone from living up to their marriage vows, then why do we have marriage at all? Why not just an "emotional marriage"? I mean, I guess these are all really just words that we use... but what do M vows mean if it is as simple to say... "I'm now divorced so I don't have to live up to what I promised you" ??
Denver,
No arguing.
Think about this...
Were you more committed to you W emotionallyAFTER you took you vows, or were you committed to her prior to that?
Simple? Yup, it really is...
You are a lawyer. What is the legal basis of M? Women used to be "property" of men. Men received dowries when they got married. In some places around the world, they still do. Women are still considered "property". There was legal and financial gains to be considered.
There is also the whole religious basis for M. Moral codes to conform to.
So the reasons for the vows, could be numerous.
Weren't you really emotinally married to her before you took those vows?
I know that I was married to my H, before I actually married him.
Just some thoughts...
"Acceptance doesn't mean resignation. It means understanding that something is what it is and there's got to be a way through it."--Michael J. Fox
A long, long time ago a very wise and far sighted person came up with simple promises knowing what strains are put on the basic building block of human society, the nuclear family from generation to generation.
That is why they include the words: "In Sickness", "For Poorer", and "For Worse." These things beset just about every marriage from time to time.
In most cases, after the emotions are all spent, the sole will power to keep a promise, is the last thing holding a family together.
That is probably where I am right now: trying to keep W near S12 at least until he transitions from childhood to manhood.
Me 53 XW 50 M 18 Years +2 S14 D19 Bomb 10-24-10 Served 1-27-11 Mediate 4-21-11 Civil D Final 6-2-11 No church anullment "A man is not finished when he is defeated, he is finished when he quits."
wow cat to see the other side is really quit remarkeble. Denver that is some serious insight. cat I wonder if you would come over as a WAS an give an honest assesment on where I stand. I have some great advice but always love to get another look specially from a WAS sorry buddy had to ask.
Were you more committed to you W emotionallyAFTER you took you vows, or were you committed to her prior to that?
Simple? Yup, it really is...
Weren't you really emotinally married to her before you took those vows?
I was committed to her emotionally before we M'd Cat. And yes, I can see that there was an emotional M prior to the actual legal M.
But this still does not answer the question about our vows... the vows that we spoke in front of our families.. in front of our friends.
She vowed to be faithful to me until death do us part... She gets out of that bc she decides that she doesn't want to do it anymore? That she is 'emotionally divorced'?
I say this recognizing that I vowed to love and cherish my W until death do us part. I broke these vows. I am not blame shifting.
I want to understand.
M 43 X 38 T 13 W moves out of home 11/2010 Roller coaster from hell 2/2011-5/2012 I request divorce 5/2012 W moves home 6/2012 Good time 7/2012 - 1/2015 I leave 3/2016 process of divorce
