I have no hostility to you at all. I think you give excellent advice. However I have asked you questions and you continue to RUN away from them. What are you afraid of PUP? Me? Or yourself?
Again you want to run away. Thats fine.
I am not here to be anyones friend, although I have many. We are all here to do a job, to give support. Obviously there is a difference of opinion on how to do that.
I would like to understand why. But you don't want to do that.
I'm very sorry you're leaving. From the work I've seen you do, I've enormous respect for your compassion, wisdom, and humour. And, yes, patience with Newbies.
But I think it's a shame you feel there's too much debate here. I think what's being discussed is crucial to the whole question of why a spouse should stand for a person in MLC, and why they should try to cultivate compassion for them rather than writing them off as crazy. I have to confess, when I go to other forums and see the MLC-bunch written off as deluded and wrong-minded (and taking the wrong approach to dealing with affairs) I feel sorry that this place has become so oppositional. I was only trying to express that I feel there are cases where people should not leap immediately into affair-busting, but rather build up their strength, knowledge, support networks, etc, before deciding whether that is the best route to take. Because, clearly, instant "outing" does not work for everyone.
Quote: Mrs. Puppy did not have the universal vacant, dead-eyes appearance of an MLCer. Hence the distinction between a straightforward affair and MLC affair.Is this the only requirement for her not to have been in a MLC? When I read the story it sounds like a MLC to me. The timing of the affair busting was perfect for breaking it up and putting her into depression withdrawal stage. Perfect boundaries. But she was still in a MLC to me. A roller coaster of events. Ups and downs, coming closer, distancing. Hormones out of wack. A perfect storm. Don't know about the childhood issues. Or the trigger event. But the actions seem just like a MLC.
The end result, also is something I question. After the affair is busted, what happens then? What is the end game? Is that like the end game in the six stages of MLC?
Oh my...questions, questions. Let me try to address them one by one.
Is this the only requirement for her not to have been in a MLC?
I am basing my information on Puppy's comments throughout the site here and there. I have not read up on his threads of his sitch. However, based on some comments around the site, it appears that Mrs. Puppy did not have the "lost puppy" look or affect that is the universal signpost of a MLCer. Nor do I see any indication of a trauma in Mrs. Puppy's case. And Puppy busted the affair in 3 months and they reconcilled shortly thereafter. The classic signposts and timeline does not mesh with MLC in Mrs. Puppy's case. It is only my perspective.
After the affair is busted, what happens then?
1) Reconcilation 2) Divorce
Whatever path that occurs after an affair ends (busted or MLCer "wakes up"), there's been a tremendous trial of pain, anger, betrayal, sadness left it its wake. Not for the faint of the heart.
What is the end game?
Only you know the answer and it is an individualistic choice. Ultimately, the true end game per se is your own personal growth and accumulating knowledge and self-awareness about relationships in general from DBing. To me, that is success.
Puppy, My Husband went through a series of traumatic events that I feel pushed him into MLC.
We moved across the country for a new job after he had been unemployed for about 6 months, his Father died, and we found out that one of the twins I was carrying had passed away. On top of this we were doing construction on our home and we had his Mother living with us as well as taking care of our 8 kids.
This is enough for anyone to nut up. With all of that being said, my Husband was one of the most straight edged people I had ever met. Very active in our church, very family oriented, no drugs, drinking or infidelity.
He came from a family that seemed very normal until I began to find things out about his parents. His Mother would sulk and lay guilt trips on people if she didn't get her way. She was/is very manipulative and my H was never allowed to talk about "feelings".
When I "exposed" my Husband's infidelity nobody believed me. And I mean nobody. I snooped and find out way more information then I ever needed to know and basically had a complete breakdown over it.
Everyone thought that because my Husband was such a nice guy, that I was just exaggerating and making something out of nothing.
It wasn't until he actually loaded up the car and drove 3000 miles to begin a new life with his high school girlfriend that they started to see something was amiss.
He got fired from his job because he had become so entrenched with the EA and completely lost his focus.
He told so many people so many lies about me and our situation that I was constantly defending myself.
Once I began to understand about MLC and start to realize that this wasn't about me I could begin to actually have compassion for him.
There are so many things that he did and said that were very evil and traumatic, most are in the archives.
There can be no testimony without a test. I am praying to go through this test and come out the other end with a new and better marriage then before.
He is a DIFFERENT person right now. He has the weight of the world on his shoulders and its obvious. I don't see the OW as competition (as I rightfully did previously). I personally find the OW kind of sad if she feels that having a R with my H right now is a healthy thing. I know he's not right and to a certain extent, HE knows he's not right.
BINGO! The OW/OM/OP is not the competition in an MLC affair as in a "regular affair." MLCers see the OP as a "friend" in a twisted way. In my case, I saw the OW as my "best, new friend." Whereas in a "regular affair", the OW/OM actively plans with the WAS to steal away from the LBS. Which is why "regular affair" OW/OMs pressure the WAS for a D.
Puppy,
Quote:
did it happen after some specific, traumatic life event?
Always happens 99.9% of the time for the MLCer. You'd find this interesting: My new gal is a former MLCer. I was surprised to hear her story. She exhibited the classic signs of MLC. Her grandfather died (she was practically raised by him since her own father owned a bakery store and was not around very much) years ago and she became "lost" and "vacant" and had an OW for almost a year! When my NG's MLC ended, she fell apart and flew down to her best friend's home and collapsed into her arms sobbing. NG was in a lot of pain at that time and ended her MLC affair with the OW. Strange, twisted journey.
Quote:
Way to much debate on here and in Infidelity forum, and not enough helping of the newbies who need it.
Man up, Puppy! Debates are welcome and fruitful where we can learn from each other's experiences. A lot of smart and articulate people in these parts! However, debating for debate's sake is not the way to...we all come here to learn from one another. I ain't afraid of a strong man or woman!
I can say if you tried to affair bust W's OM while she was in MLC during that three month period...she'd flushed right back into the EAC tunnel. And you'd wait a loooooong time before Mrs. Puppy returned home. You said you are not one for much patience.
Lance and Puppy,
Come on over to the WH for a beer summit. I am not talking about the White House. I am talking about the Wonka House!!
I am basing my information on Puppy's comments throughout the site here and there. I have not read up on his threads of his sitch. However, based on some comments around the site, it appears that Mrs. Puppy did not have the "lost puppy" look or affect that is the universal signpost of a MLCer. Nor do I see any indication of a trauma in Mrs. Puppy's case. And Puppy busted the affair in 3 months and they reconcilled shortly thereafter. The classic signposts and timeline does not mesh with MLC in Mrs. Puppy's case. It is only my perspective.
Wonka Thank you very much for responding
I did read the PDT story and obviously I came to a different conclusion after reading it. I can only go by what was written by him on these boards. And while I am sure what is stated above is true, there is more to the story.
PDT chooses not to discuss it so I will respect his wishes.
However the amount of documented success stories here is slim. Now what I mean by the above statement is that although there are lots of great threads that explain everything up through the end of replay, not much is written about the stages afterwords. HeartBlessing gives great insight into it and I have spoken to her at length. I have been trying to find more information about the ending stages of MLC. Especially the breaking of withdrawal and acceptance stages.
BND sorry for the hijack, but all of this IS pertinent to MLC and whether to expose the affair or not. MLC is 6 stages not just "replay".
I also noticed (and regretted) how little information seemed to exist about the final stages. In retrospect, however, I think I can understand why. Withdrawal is so internalized that my H barely talked to me during it, and I think he couldn't really remember it well once his depression lifted.
Also, Acceptance probably looks more different in different people than the other stages, because this is when issues are finally being addressed. But these issues vary greatly.
In addition, in those last stages my H was cycling so fast and so dramatically that no plan, emotion, intention, etc, lasted long before it was replaced. In the space of 5 minutes he could say and do a bewildering number of contradictory things. Even into Acceptance he would have regular dips into thinking with his teenaged brain for several months. But he was also in withdrawal from the OW at the time, which no doubt added its own issues.
I don't think you're going to find a "script" for breaking withdrawal and acceptance in the same way you can for the earlier stages. All you can do as an LBS is take care of yourself so that you are prepared to deal with whatever happens.
Thank you all for this discussion of the last 3 stages........and thanks BND for hosting! Info about this seems really hard to come by, so your thoughts are very much appreciated!
Cyrena, your description of the frequency and duration of cycling during your H's Withdrawal and Acceptance really helps a lot. As you well know it is incredibly frustrating to watch the MLCer take steps backward in their journey out of the tunnel. It helps to hear examples of how this transit played out in others' lives. Thank you!
I may have missed this info on this or another thread, but Wonka, have you described what happened and what your thought processes were like when you went through Depression, Withdrawal, and Acceptance? If so, would you please kindly refer me to that post? If not, would you please consider sharing that info here?
Whereas in a "regular affair", the OW/OM actively plans with the WAS to steal away from the LBS. Which is why "regular affair" OW/OMs pressure the WAS for a D. 
