For Sandi2

[elscotto]

I know this is an old thread but holy moly does it hit home--or at least where home used to be. Sandi, I have to tell you that what you gave as advice throughout this is soooooooo dead on. Wow.

I probably made some mistakes with WAW when I was not happy abut the way our relationship was going I point blank asked her if there was someone else and she said there was someone she was interested in and she didn't know whether she loved me anymore or wanted to be married to me. I had changed and was not the same person she used to love.

Same tired lines:

1. I am not sure I ever really loved you and this was probably a mistake from the beginning.
2. I haven't been happy for a long time
3. You haven't been happy for a long time
4. Its too late to "fix" the marriage
5. I don't want to stay in this relationship
6. The kids will be fine
7. Your problem is that you were always working and were so focused on all the things you wanted me and the family to have and that's not important for me.
8. I'm not sorry you caught me or that I did it only that "you got hurt"

I did the wrong things at first and tried to "fix" things and to go to counseling and get her to go etc...All failed because this was a woman that didn't want to fix it. She was in love--and may still be but she doesn't appear quite as in love today as she did then. It was September and the weather was beautiful. She had her fling going and he was the knight in shining armor.

So what to do. I followed her one night when she was supposed to be going to the movies with the "girls" and busted her out with him. The next day I suggested that it wouldbe a good thing for her to find a place tolive that would give her the space she needed. She looked and then found a place and within 3 days she was sleepng at another house not far from ours. Almost every day in some form or another she told me that she did not want to work on the marriage and didn't love me and wanted out. She didn't know at this point that I had been seeing an attorney who told me to move quickly to assist her out of the house and to act while she was feeling guilty over the kids etc...

So, I have the first conversation on 8-31-09 where she tells me she doesn't love me anymore. 9-19-09 catch her on a date (while I was supposedly at counseling). 10-9-09 divorce.

In pushing the divorce through it became brutal at times. I mentioned that I would rather get the divorce done and not drag it out because if we did and it went to litigation then it wuld make all the details of the divorce a matter of public record. She took this to be an implied threat that her affair would also be a part of that record--it wasn't a threat. My attorney said he'd refile the case from irreconcileable differences to adultry and depose the OM and every other person who might be connected or know something. Also, he said we'd go for full custody of the kids and challenge her ability to be a good mom. BTW--NONE of what my attorney said was passed along to my soon to be ex.

So we get teh divorce, the OM's wife is po'd when she finds out about the affair. He gives her the same lines my ex gave me bulleted out above. She says either we work on the marriage or divorce--NOW. She gets the same attorney I had. Neither my Ex or the OM got an attorney or were represented by councel.

Now here we are a little over 4 mos later. My sons know their mother is "dating" the OM. She doesn't know they know. He was a family friend and got divorced very close to the same time we did and they know this. The OM told his 9 year old son that he was going to be dating Ms. XXXX. Not what I would call the rocket scientist thing to do.

I have checked out in terms of engaging with her. I have also made mistakes and yes took a self riteous route when she would never admit to having the affair. In her words she didn't have an affair she had a "relationship." That used to make me mad now I just roll my eyes at the thought.

The questions is whether I moved too quickly and too harshly? Do I want her back--part of me does and part of me doesn't. Maybe I want the choice of whether to have her back. I suspect when and if she wants back (big if)I will have moved on. I have dated other women and worry about hurting anyone and am doing all the things people suggest in terms of working out and looking good and bought new clothes to look good.

I have no problems with women or women wanting to go out with me so although I have a teriibly bruised ego I know that her affair--or choice to have an affair was just that--hers.

I also wonder if calling her out on her comments that the marriage was over backed her into a corner. I know she was very much in lve with the OM at the time at least in her head. I am not naive enough to think that she ould end it with him after we got divorced. Wouldn't that make the loss of her prior life all for nothing.

I'd like to know what stages that I should look for from her to indicate that she might be coming out of her fog. I don't get mad at her anymore and just hold my temper. All communication is polite, friendly, but not personal. I prefer e-mail and will usually move a TM response to e-mail.

We are still splitting up things according to the divorce agreement and probably will for the next several months in terms of assets and businesses.

I just get the sense that she will at some point think she made a mistake--that is unless I have destroyed things on the way to the divorce and now.

[elscotto]

The thing is now the WAW is pretty hostile and cold to me. I don't know whether its because she really hates me or she hates me for pushing through a divorce (a divorce she wanted even when I offered her a 30 day cooling off period she said no) When things go wrong she is PO'd at me--I am talking simple things.

We own some warehouse space and it was broken into one night--burglarized. There were 13 of the 18 spaces broken into. It was 4 degrees out, I had my boys that week, and the doors to the units were damaged badly. She admitted that she thought I might have had something to do with it to force her to buy new doors for the units. The context was that I had suggested 3 weeks earlier that we replace the doors to up its resale value and she said no she didn't want to.

Its like she is crazy these days in terms of paranoia. I don't get it.

[cesco]

Sorry to hear this going on for you..

I guess from reading this I am not sure if you are sad that you went ahead and just forced the issue ? or if you feel that you should have gone a tad slower to see if you could allow her the space and time to get through the fog?

[sandi2]

Oh my gosh! I thought you fell of the face of the earth! I am so glad to hear from you, but I wish it was under better circumstances.

Oh......just got a call and have to leave. I will respond to you later.

Take care,
Sandi

[elscotto]

Cesco, yeah I guess thats probably the question. Most of my friends say I did the right thing and that had I waited it out I would have just suffered more indignity and it wouldn't have changed a thing because she didn't want to change anything. That was heartbreaking seeing her so gleefully moving her stuff out. My mom said it was normal because she was getting her freedom and she was willing to trade an unfavorable divorce settlement to herself in return for the instant freedom. My attorney said the same and that's why to get a divorce asap.

Let's face it--in 8-09--literally 6 mos ago I had no idea that we had a marriage that was shaky. I knew we had a marriage that needed attention but nothing in jeopardy. It is nearly impoassible for me to have stopped loving her in a short span like that. I haven't liked her a LOT through the past 6 mos but its hard to throw away 20 years of good memories without wrestling with that loss.

So, as I mentioned to several friends in the beginning never say never but I thought it was best to cut the ties so I could move forward with my world. I went from 200lbs to 173 and looked like crap. My job suffered and my kids were flipped o their ear. They have never seen mom and dad fight--because we didn't fight. We argued, had our bad moods etc... but those lasted about 30 seconds and someone walked away and it was forgotten. My kids never considered that they would ever ever be one of the kids who had a divorce home. I never thought it.

Craziness. I am just trying to do no more damage than I have done so that regardless of the future we can have as much harmony as possible--together or separately.

I'd like the option at some point to be able to sort through the destruction but that will never happen until she sees some of her choices as wrong. I made bad decisions over the years but I didn't have affairs--I just worked too much some times or failed to give her the attention she needed. I thought she was okay with that because she has always been super cool and kinda like a guy when it came to neediness. Her ideas were that Valentines Day was a waste of time and a made up holiday and anniversary cards were silly because we knew when we got married.

I am still just sick at what happened and that it didn't HAVE to happen. It most likely will be permanent because I think when she comes out of her fog I might be in my own fog with other people and not really willing to seriously entertain something with her.

Thoughts?

[cesco]

Well,
I cannot tell you how similar our stories are.
My W is a fog as well. The Friday before Valentines Day, I told her that I needed better and I wasnt the one who wanted this and that if she needed to leave that its best that she does.
She thought it was the right choice. She started looking for places etc. Then, the Thursday following she tells me she cant find anything reasonably priced and she doesnt want to leave.
Our R, like yours, never really fought, or argued etc. Like you I thought she was kinda cool with stuff untill she told me all this. I still Love her dearly.
In saying that, I am having a tough time kicking her out and some of the advice on here has been to be patient, GAL, detach and NC. It will take some time but the fog will clear.
Like you though, how much can someone take untill enough is enough.
In my R, I have not been able to confirm if there was an affair or not. I am pretty confident of an EA but thats about it..

Hang in their for your childs sake. I doesnt sound like deep inside you want this and you can still win her over if "YOU" want..

[elscotto]

Hey Cesco, thanks for taking the time to respond. I didn't know it then but I know it now after reading these words of wisdom in here from people like Sandi but at the time of the rapid fire split up there was going to be a window of opportunity in which I would be there for her. At some point the window would close and I would not be there for her in any capacity other than a co-parent of our children. I said I don't know whether this will be 2 weeks, 2 months, or something longer.

The difference I think in her situation with some others is that as we know divorce can be pretty devastating financially to a lot of people. With her half of the assets she took away from the marriage its not devastating for her--she has a nest egg that a lot of people would like to retire with. This might extend her fog a little in life. Who knows.

I do know this--and this won't happen because she is still "in love" with the OM--if we were to ever have a chance in the future it would have to be after we lived apart for a time, we'd have to go through a full courtship, and it would have to be a rebuilding from the start. That option may be moot anyway since I am pretty sure she has me on the top of her HATE list. She is mad because she knows that both me and the OM's Ex wife have talked about their affair. They are mad because word got out and we live in a semi small community. Further, my Ex and the OM, and our kids are all students at a martial arts school that is pretty close and all of those people know about the affair--'scuse me the "relationship."

I am just trying not to engage realtime with her and keep my distance. Answering only those questions that are asked, no sermons/lectures/judgements. I work out 4-5 times a week, look great, my businesses are doing great and I am remodeling the house. I have to say outside of the hurt of seeing my sons lives screwed up and being betrayed and cheated on my life is really quite a bit better than its been for a lot of years. I go out, see people, enjoy friends, go on long weekends with lady friends, am taking my sons to Hawaii for Spring Break etc...

This is whacked out.

So what I would like from the board is feedback on the source of her hostility with me. You all don't know her and don't know all that's transpired so this may be hard. For Sandi--what were the first indications to you that you "might" have made a mistake or might have been hasty? BTW--you are SOOOOO dead on in the re-writing of history. That sucked to hear a woman tell you me that. She even told me it would have been a relief to know that I were sleeping with another women through the years....

[sandi2]

Sorry that I took so long in getting back to you.

I don't know if I will be able to answer your question in a way that will be of help to you, but I'll try.

For Sandi--what were the first indications to you that you "might" have made a mistake or might have been hasty?

Remember that I never left......I was almost a walk-away. However, I had all the symptoms of a wife who leaves her H. My first indications that I was wrong in having an EA was always there, but being in that "fog" was the problem. The addiction to the thrill was what kept me seeking more. I remember, however, when the "thrill" began to slip away. I also remember that I was going to either meet with OM in person and pursue a PA or the EA was probably over.

I don't think I would qualify to answer the part about being "hasty" since I did not leave. I do remember at the beginning of the EA how I wanted my freedom more than anything and was willing to walk away from everything.....or at least I was considering it. It really scares me to look back and see how messed up I was.

Knowing that one has made a mistake in their life does not always change what they do. Your W may come to that place in the road some day. If she has a lot of anger toward the past...then she may just accept her mistake but not try to make ammends.

I would think that you W is PO'd at you for beating her to the D. She wanted to come out smelling like a rose and she can't do that if people know about her A. She doesn't want any guilt laid at her door. It is crazy, but I suppose she has to have you as her target for her anger. I don't know of a couple who D and one of them was not angry or very hurt.

Will she realize her mistake? Probably. However, it may not change the direction she is headed. Many people in A's do get M and that is just a fact of life. I have read right here on the board from a couple of women who are in their second M and can look back with sadness that the first M did not work out. Strange, in a way.....but I guess that person will always be a part of your life....period.

I think that you are in some kind of "state" that might be like shock, in a way, that all this has really taken place.....b/c you did act quickly....and there are "stages" that hit a person, much like when a death takes place. Now, you are second guessing yourself and wondering if you acted too quickly. I don't think that is good for you to do that...but I'm sure it is only normal. Your emotions are still working over-time and you aren't sure if you would want your W back even if there was a chance.

For what it's worth, I think you did the right thing. I believe you are doing the right thing in moving on with your life. I do believe that you need to only contact her when it concerns the children and try to keep it as friendly as possible. Don't take anything off her just b/c she gets mad. Don't let her bully you with anger.

If she comes around sometime in the future, then I think your emotions will be more settled by then and you'll know what you want. It will take time for you to heal from what she's done to you and the boys.....and maybe there's a part that doesn't heal...IDK b/c I have not personally been in those shoes, but I have people close to me that have been in bad M's (I mean really bad) and they were able to get past it and move on. You will too, but right now....you still hurt and you are still "watching" what she does. Yes, you still love her and probably always will, but I have seen in my own family that another love can come along that will make one very happy.

[elscotto]

Wow. All good feedback Sandi thank you SO MUCH. We had a "family" dinner for one of my boy's birthday last night as well as last Sat night for another one of the boys. (They were all born within 30 days of each other) and the one thing I took away from both meetings is that she does not appear happy right now. I'm not naive enough to think that has to do with me or any awakening to the loss of her marriage. It might be that--or could be a tax bill ahead that she has now that she will be filing a single return. In the past my paycheck magically made that go away but those days are over. But bottom line is that woman is not happy right now. Her skin tone looks bad, she looks drawn and a little haggard with circles under her eyes, and she has continued to lose weight.

Idk--I can't imagine moving from a semi happy secure marriage to a full blown affair and then to a divorce within 20 days of the affair being discovered. Those are some serious life changing events in a hurry and I have to think the realization of the marriage being gone might not truly have hit her or the OM. After all, they have been pleasantly distracted with their affair and the feelings of being in love and of having found their soul mate. The OM is a piece of work too--his ex told me he is already behind on his child support, has bounced a series of checks 3 times in the 3 months since they divorced, and is living in a craphole apartment. Good stuff I tell you.

The other thing I guess thats moot is why in the hell she doesn't just admit it was an affair and why she doesn't realize how rediculous it sounds to continually refer to it as a "relationship" and to deny that she had an affair? Any women have some insight for me on this.

I was mad at her one day about a month ago because the OM told his 9 year old son that he was going to date Mrs.XXX and of course his 9 year old son texted at least one of my son's and told them. So, now 2 of my son's know their mother is dating Mr XXX but neither my ex or the OM know they know--they do suspect it however. So at the time my ex and I had been divorced 4 mos and the OM had been divorced 2 mos when this got to the kids. I was sooooo mad at my ex and told her in a fit of rage that I would not allow that crapbag to occupy a position of respect, friendship, or authority within my boy's lives when he had such an instrumental role in breaking up their home and security. She said you can't do anything about it and that's crazy because I would never do that to you if you were to intro a woman to them. I said there is a difference in that there is no woman I could date who would have had the same negative impact on those boys and their home and security. Then I screamed at her that she had the affair--not me. She screamed back I didn't have an affair and I said "you need to understand something--an affair is a lot more than someone sticking their crank in you" and she got quiet for a sec.

That was a month ago and we haven't had anoy more seriously nasty realtime conversations since then. I am good and composed 98% of the time but need to further distance. I find that interaction with her puts me in a bad mood and whenever she sends me anything its rarely anything positive.

Sighhhhhhhhhh when does this carnival ride end?

Thanks all
scott

[Puppy Dog Tails]

The other thing I guess thats moot is why in the hell she doesn't just admit it was an affair and why she doesn't realize how rediculous it sounds to continually refer to it as a "relationship" and to deny that she had an affair? Any women have some insight for me on this . . .quote]

I'm not a woman, but I can easily tell you the reason, based on years of studying literally thousands of affairs:

Because all cheaters LIE -- PERIOD.

From my own archives:

[quote=Puppy Dog Tails]
Most wayward spouses will do this "moral back-dating" thing, whereby if they DID get physical in their affairs, before they were divorced, they'll say "yeah, but we were separated." And if they WEREN'T separated, they'll say "Yeah, but I had already mentally and emotionally moved on, so it's like we really WERE separated, anyway.", etc.

It's a moral defense mechanism.

They also usually will admit to one level LESS than what the truth is:

- "there's absolutely nothing on" = "inappropriate friendship"

- "inappropriate friendship or feelings" = "full-blown Emotional Affair" (EA)

- "we've never been physical" = "full-blown Physical Affair" (PA), or sometimes it had BECOME physical, but they've temporarily cooled it, either voluntarily or due to outside pressure

The reason I asked you that is because, as I've been posting to others recently, I do think it's very important to a betrayed spouse's own self-esteem for them to get their wayward spouse to at least deal with them from a basic position of honesty. The daily deceit can just EAT YOU UP inside, and it's no way to teach children, for example, how healthy families (even divorced, but successfully-co-parented ones) function. I think it's emotionally healthiest for you to get to a position where it's basically "Look, YOU know what you're doing, I know what you're doing, and YOU know that I know, and you also need to know that I'm CATEGORICALLY NOT OKAY WITH IT. I love you, and don't want to divorce, but you are an adult, and I can't control you. All I can tell you is the circumstances under which I'm willing to be married, and I cannot live in an open marriage, make no mistake."

Then, what they do with all that is up to them.

I'm really sorry to hear about your kids finding out like that. It's one of the main reasons I'm so pro-exposure, even to teens and pre-teens (so long as it's done in an age-appropriate manner).

Puppy