My UFO (unbelievably fabulous observations)

[naej]

Hi Hoosier, well it lasted about 3 years,the last 6months or so I knew it was "dying". I knew he did too but wouldn't come right out and say so,so I ended it.
I had known in my heart it was a game,I always said so and he protested but he knew. It was a last ditch attempt at recapturing our youth,for him I think he needed to know how life would have been if we had married,he once told me his wife brought up my name everytime they fell out,he married on the rebound from me! I had hardly ever thought of him we exchanged C,mas cards as couples over the years but that was it.
It was a magical time for me and I have no regrets. I think of him now and again,and will always be grateful that he unlocked my heart and took time to break down my walls.
I know now I am still desirable as a woman and have been loved deeply.He brought me back to life and that is a gift I will have for as long as I breathe.
We have to be vunerable,how else can we know when love touches us.
I will never be as hurt as I was with my x nothing and no one has that power over me,I truly know that and I know I will always love my x but my heart can be awakened to new loves. The heart is big, it does not have a limited amount of love,it grows to make room for new loves.
Make your heart grow and even if this love is only temperary, it will be for a reason and help with the healing.
God Bless.

[hoosiermama]

Thank you, BeingMe. It does feel like I'm "wandering in the wilderness" at times. And a year-and-a-half into the wilderness (both my marriage and my ministry position ended the same week, and I lost friends and community in both) it feels like I'll never find that oasis. I just wish D13 wasn't in the same wilderness. Hers, I think, has more to do with just being in middle school and being ever-so-slightly "different." Nevertheless, it leaves her isolated at a time when she needs the support of friends and community. I have prayed and prayed to find some kind of youth group, the answer to which high school would be best for her, and I'm not getting much clarity at all--at least none that I can recognize.

Yes, I'm hoping that 2010 marks the year I find an oasis! Thanks for always being there, BeingMe!

[Puppy Dog Tails]

Happy New Year, Hoozh. Getting ready to get a windy, rain-soaked road down to O-town for New Year's at my BIL's house, and only have a sec, but I did want to pass along an e-hug and a Happy New Year to my bestest-never-met-them friend.

I hope 2010 is better -- for both of us.

Deep in my annual New Year's funk,

Pup

[hoosiermama]

Thank you, naej. I appreciate your willingness to share so very much.

One of the more difficult parts of this "thing" is that it's a long-distance relationship. Of course, if it were not, it would have flashed over and burned itself out very quickly. Initially clung to each other like the 2 drowning people we were and had we been closer we'd have sunk. Okay, I'm wearing out the cliches and metaphors here! But anyway, hopefully we've done a better job of keeping each other afloat this way. But it's difficult, and by its very nature the communication is a bit strange--most of it is written, and there's no nuancing or facial expression or tone of voice or body language--just the words. And while we're both quite articulate, we're both kind of intense and introspective; occasionally I have to remind myself he's not my personal journal and it's okay just to talk about "stuff" and not process all the time. Yes, we do talk every week or so, and we laugh a lot.

Oddly, it doesn't feel like a game. I keep looking for red flags, of course--being the second-guesser that I am--and the only ones I find are more related to each of us being wounded messes trying to heal and put our lives back together than anything else. While I think there may have been a very tiny element of "holding a torch" going on for him, I don't get the sense that I ever came up in their marriage. I think it's been a real struggle for him to let go of his wife--she's the classic WAW and he's the classic LBS who had trouble dropping the rope, although it sounds like she was rather uniquely and creatively emotionally abusive. I had met her several times in the early days of their marriage, and I have to say she didn't like me much and was very territorial--which I found strange--altho I don't get the sense that there was any of what you describe going on.

I'm not sure how he'd describe our relationship; in fact, we take great pains not to describe it, not to define it and just let it be. But in the very first conversations, we promised each other not to let go this time, to remain in each others' lives in some way. I don't know that that would be possible if we found other people to spend our lives with--I can't see SO's being comfortable with the level at which we communicate. But because we're both works-in-progress, there have been some rather rough patches over the past year, and we've managed to pull together and work them out in ways I've never experienced before. And that's been a learning experience. I've learned a lot about myself in that, and I like what I've learned. And that has been very healing; xH blames the affair and all the marital problems on me--and I can see now from a different perspective, not just intellectually, that that's not at all true. It's interesting not to be in a relationship with a narcissist--and I think that my romantic life has been disproportionately populated with those. I'm a much better person in relationship when I actually "count" in that relationship!

But the slowness, the tentativeness, the pullbacks--while probably pretty normal--are excruciating, and throw me easily into feeling abandoned. And while it's not fun, it's probably healthy for me to learn the difference between "feeling" abandoned and actually "being" abandoned. I long for some reassurance, some ability to look into the future and know that this relationship will not also blow up in my face and cause great pain--and of course, there are no guarantees of that for anyone.

Thanks for listening to my processing. Happy New Year, and blessings to you, too, naej!

[hoosiermama]

Awww--same to you, pup. Today the weather here is cold but it's a beautiful bright blue sky replacing yesterday's cold gray drizzle--and I find my mood is also much less gray. I hope the same for you, my friend--an improvement in the weather internally as well as outside!

[hoosiermama]

A year ago this week I was in an agonizing limbo, wondering if I should keep trying to hang onto my marriage (yeah, as if I had any influence on that) or let it go and move on emotionally toward healing from the loss. So I hit my knees in great pain and asked for a sign to tell me what to do. The next day I woke up with more peace than I'd felt in a couple of years, and no longer missing xH. Missing our life, and it's predictability and "stability" for sure, but not him.

And then a week or two later the gym teacher walked into the office wearing a sweatshirt that somehow triggered a memory of an old friend, and I googled him and tossed a brief and casual note, hoping for a quick update and perhaps a laugh over a few shared memories. And I got quite a sign there, I think.

Had a wonderful chat with D13 a couple of days ago. Same stuff, really, no new incidents or anything like that, just that she appreciates being able to talk to me and wishes her father, the professional "listener," would listen to her. She has begun using the term "boundaries" frequently, and feels she is setting them in her refusing a relationship with the Witch (ok, not using a nasty term--she actually IS a witch). However, she feels powerless in that when she does set boundaries, xH persists in questioning her and pushing his agenda ("do you talk to your mother like this?!"--ha!), and feels that it only makes him angry. It still ties in with being afraid he'll stop loving her (again, a very precarious place to be for her development of her sense of female self-in-relationship, and what an idiot he is to be screwing around like this; what an evil thing). Someday, and it may be awhile, she will have the strength to make that phone call and take herself out of the situation. But not just now. Nevertheless, I am incredibly thankful that she trusts me and that we have the kind of relationship that allows her to talk like this. And I feel that gratitude in the depths of my soul. But what I also feel is the great difficulty of knowing that she may well deal with this fear of losing her father's love through subsequent relationships with guys the rest of her life--seeking that assurance of love by choosing guys like him to play it out and doing what she thinks might be necessary to ensure that love. She's at perhaps the most vulnerable developmental stage for this to happen. And that terrifies me.

I would sincerely appreciate any input on this from anyone who has some wisdom about it. Is there anything I can do to mitigate the effects of her feeling her father's love is so conditional and so tenuous?

[BeingMe]

Hi H'mama! Perhaps your example of letting go, might help her in her romantic R's in the future. It must be very difficult to be a child of a 'narcissist'. I think she may've already been effected long before he left, in subtle ways? Possibly, some literature on this type of R somewhere?

[hoosiermama]

I'll look for that. Can't say I've come across anything about narcissistic dad/adolescent daughter dynamics, but it might be out there. I have a feeling that she's beginning to see that he's got the issue, that it's not her fault for being "unlovable" or something. But I don't know if that ultimately makes a difference.

She has a wonderful godfather who has stepped up to the plate, and I have a cousin nearby who's a high school teacher who has had some great conversations with D13. Trying to find some strong, stable, and safe men to give her good examples.

Anyone else had any experience in dealing with dads who have obviously chosen OW over their daughters, and how they've helped their daughters deal?

[BeingMe]

I guess your D needs to realise that your XH has the issues, not her. But, she is emotionally attached to him, and at such a young age, will find it difficult to deal with his behaviour.

I found these links (which info you probably know about, but in case you find something different and interesting, I will post them here):
http://www.drirene.com/11_nar.htm
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Will_a_narcissistic_father_ever_accept_you (I found this one interesting where your D is concerned --- it seems she is the babysitting object in his new family)
http://www.mental-health-today.com/narcissistic/father.htm
http://narcissisticparents.blogspot.com/2008/04/how-my-narcissistic-father-got-that-way.html (interesting blog)

I wonder if there are levels of narcissism? Are some worse than others --- probably, just like there are levels of empathy in people. I have seen so much of this on the board ---- parents completely exiting their children's lives, or only wanting them around for what they can get out of it.

[hoosiermama]

wow--I read these links and they were both scary and comforting.

I can see where the narcissism came from--xH's father is emotionally about 8 years old and very narcissistic, mom tended to disappear and felt she had no choice but to raise her sons according to her MIL's Italian model--few responsibilities, treating them like little princes, being a buffer between them and dad during disagreements.

And very definitely, there's a great level of conflict between xH and D13 when she fails to provide that "narcissistic supply" and has the nerve to differentiate a bit and establish her own boundaries about OW. Certainly OW is providing that "supply" along with her daughters...for now. And it was when I stopped providing it that things fell apart in the marriage.

The articles you cited were comforting in that they point out that if I can remain stable D13 will likely continue to choose me as a role model rather than her father; at this point that's kind of a no-brainer. Unfortunately it seems like most of the examples they used were same-gender parent-child relationships. None of them really discussed the specific issue I have been so concerned about.

Are there levels of narcissism? Probably. xH at least isn't violent, and a big part of his self-image has to do with being seen as good relationally because of his career choice. And while he certainly has been proven to lie to protect that image, he can really only carry that so far since he works with others who are also relational experts. And while he is very good at talking a good story and knowing just what to say, he has to stay within certain boundaries or he'll be "found out." He is functional, tho, and actually quite highly regarded in his field; that's a testament to his ability to manipulate and put on very good masks. If he were more severely narcissistic I think he'd be less functional.

So I'm thinking that the issue I'm most worried about--how to support D13 as she struggles with fearing losing her father's love and reduce the developmental damage associated with that--is affected by the narcissism but she is aware that, in many ways, she's an "object" to him. And that is less than helpful for her.

Anyone have any other practical ideas for supporting daughters thru fatherly emotional abandonment?