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#1900772 - 12/23/09 08:20 PM Re: Unstoppable [Re: KerryK]
NoCodeBlues Offline
Member

Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 2580
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:
Here is your post that you say is a summary of the message you have been trying convince them of..


Go back and read the context of that proposed line of conversation I posted here before I attempted to open a dialog with S's upon. Which I then dropped.

Those have indeed been my thoughts regarding the frequently recurring mentionings by S8 and S5 about their mother's boyfriend. But I have not directly conveyed any of that to them except to tell S8 over and over and over again that I do not want to discuss those things and to move onto other more pleasant subject matter. I am certain that xW is constantly pushing OM into their faces, injecting him in every conversation and forcing them into contact with him at every opportunity, as there is no other rationale why OM is part of nearly every thought and reflection they make on any subject now. My ex is waging a campaign to ingrain her A partner into every aspect of our children's lives. Don't tell me about parental alienation!

Instead, my actual reaction has been to let my S's finish their sentence and then to try to steer us all to other conversation topics -- the text above that you refer to was a trial balloon to float a possible approach in hopes of curtailing any further such conversations -- as they have become more and more painful to me.

I am doing a very exemplary job, if I don't say so myself, in a difficult situation in keeping a reign on my emotions, as it is, given the continual psychological warfare xW and her mother are waging to sway my S's to their value system -- which includes excluding their father from their lives. Maybe my reactions are not wise at times, as it is often a no-win situation whichever route I take. But for someone to tell me I am guilty of the very thing I have been fighting against is simply offensive to me.

I invite you to go back through my various threads to get an accurate understanding of what I am dealing with here.


_________________________
Me: 49
WAW: 47
S11, S7
Years Married/Together: 17/18
Bomb: 6/15/07
Separation: 7/6/07
D: 4/3/09

Real love is a decision.
Marriage is a commitment.

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#1900780 - 12/23/09 08:40 PM Re: Unstoppable [Re: NoCodeBlues]
dday101798 Offline
Member

Registered: 09/02/08
Posts: 2452
Loc: Chi-town
Originally Posted By: NoCodeBlues

I invite you to go back through my various threads to get an accurate understanding of what I am dealing with here.


I have no need, I was where you are now. I understand your frustations, but the simple matter of the truth is unless OM, your XW's or ex-MIL's actions or conduct is endangering them, why continue to drive yourself to the mad house?
_________________________
Me 35/XW 33
S13 & S12
M: 10/17/98
OM & S: 07/08
D final 06/09/09
12/03/09 - 06/13/10 "Piercing"
06/13/10: Engaged to Re-marry 10/17/10
06/25/10: Expecting baby #3 2/14/11

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#1900807 - 12/23/09 09:14 PM Re: Unstoppable [Re: NoCodeBlues]
saffie Offline
Member

Registered: 06/18/07
Posts: 6274
Loc: England, UK
NC,

When I didn't like something I would make sure my parents knew. I felt safe talking to them.......mainly because early on my mother ensured that happened by not letting information we gave out be used to escalate matters between herself and my father. My father used to say things like " One day I will tell you something so awful about your mother you will hate her". Now that was a terrible thing to say to an 8yr old. Instead of getting angry at my dad when she found out he had said this, my mom sat down and told my sister and I what the thing was. It was something that was awful for my mother.....and she must have felt shamed admitting it to us. But she diffused the situation by taking the wind out my dad's sails by telling us. And you know what, it back fired on my dad, (and has done so many times over the years), because it made us love her more. That she had lived through what he threatened her about telling us, and carried on was fantastic. All we knew was that we loved our mom and our dad had tried to alter that fact by trying to turn us against her. We still continued to love him but it did make us think twice about what we told him.

Also, at different times my parents became involved with other people. How involved at the time I didn't know really as I viewed it from a child's perspective. However, I would say that the demise of both R's was caused by the fact that, however hard these other folks tried to become part of our family unit, my sister and I weren't ready to include them, and we felt safe to say so. It would be along the lines of us saying " ? isn't coming with us to the park are they?" or something similar, followed by some face pulling.

I actually am someone who believes I was much better off after my parents split. It was such a relief to live in a house where there wasn't constant conflict and shouting and you weren't scared of saying the wrong thing and causing a storm. My mom made me understand I could come home and tell her anything and she would be there for me. I knew it would go no further. There must have been times when I said things about my dad that she could have used as ammunition against him, but in order to keep the connection between father and children on an even keel my mother bit her tongue.

You know, over here we don't litigate half as much as you guys.....and way back when my folks split my mom couldn't have afforded to take my dad to court. In order to keep her children safe she walked away with £5 in her purse and the clothes on our backs, just knowing that she had a new job waiting for her and a house for us to live in. She never asked him for a penny. He never offered her anything and she has never gotten any sort of financial settlement from him.

However hard it was for both of them to hold things back when it was all raw and new, in the early years, they still managed on the whole,( my mom being better at it than my dad), to do it.....or at least it seemed that way to my sister and I. I greatly appreciate that. Now they live across the road from one another and interact daily.

So I wouldn't say that I was projecting my own hurts at all. I would say that I am projecting my thanks to my parents, and in particular my mother. They acted like the parents and not like bickering children. I believe that a happy, safe, well rounded child would let you know if something was wrong without you having to question them. The first signs would be changes in the child's behaviour.

I do think at the moment you are setting your boys up for a fall with this current line of action and all I wanted you to do was think again. I am not trying to give you a 2x4, but your reaction to other posters makes me think that deep down you feel that the balance isn't right also.

People aren't posting to you about this because they want to be awkward or unkind - they are concerned for you and your R with your sons. I don't post much these days as you know NC, but I do come on and try and keep up with those I consider 'friends' on these boards, and it is with the hand of friendship that I say these things to you. I am sorry if they are not what you want to hear.

Unfortunately I think your W knows how to play you too well and you may just be walking in to an ambush here.

Quote:
Or are my own priorities and perspectives out of whack? Is there something more harmful in my attempt to find out from my S about how his other parent is treating him than not to?


Just because your W rejected you does not mean she would be treating your boys badly.

Quote:
Well, how would I ever know if something harmful is happening to my children if I don't inquire?


You observe them and look for signs that they are unsettled or unhappy. Questioning them just feels wrong to me on many fronts. It's highlighting to them that YOU think there may be something wrong....so in turn that unsettles them. It's making them tell tales because you are intending to use what they say against their mother.

One can't guarantee anything, and i'm not a betting person, but if I were, I would bet that the route you are thinking of taking will cause much more harm than good; not only to your sons but to you too.

Your W seems to be doing this to try and get a rise out of you and she is getting just what she wantS. I would be questioning just why she is doing that and observing, rather than just jumping in.

Quote:
Again, maybe I don't have my head on straight, because I am not following the set of priorities that I see being outlined here. Too many contradictions. And too many emotions


Seems to me that most of the posters are being fairly consistent in warnng you to hold back and not be so reactive, and it is you that is being driven by emotion as one would expect, as this is your family that you feel is under threat.

I don't think the posts are being antiproductive, I think you are just fed up with people not agreeing with you - that should tell you something. At the end of the day though, you have to do what you believe you need to do. They are your sons and we do not walk in your shoes.

Whatever you decide (((((NC))))))). Split parenting isn't easy.
_________________________
Saffie
me 46
H 46
M in 1986
D20,D18,S16,D13
H's A 01/05 to 07/06
H recommitted to M 07/06
renewed vows 09/06
Going from strength to strength

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#1900824 - 12/23/09 09:38 PM Re: Unstoppable [Re: saffie]
Virtually_Handsome Offline
Member

Registered: 09/14/06
Posts: 13424
Loc: AZ
Here's something I learned in the parenting class I had to take to get the D....

The kids KNOW that they are a part of each parent. Anything that you say to diminish the other parent is going to be taken by the kids to diminish them. Sometimes you just have to be the bigger person. Doesn't mean you have to like it, but we have to put the kids ahead of ourselves.
_________________________
Jeff
The poster formerly known as dry_heat

Me-49
D 11/30/09
S12,16,21,22
Current:Wandering Poster 56-Take a step that is new...
Where the Rockettes Play!

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#1900845 - 12/23/09 10:23 PM Re: Unstoppable [Re: Virtually_Handsome]
kat727 Online
Member

Registered: 03/25/08
Posts: 9989
Loc: Kansas
NC, I am sorry that you are going through this. My ex went and moved in with his Affair partner/GF(whatever you want to call her) back in July. They became engaged I believe near the end of October. Every other weekend my girls go to their Dad's. The boys are really old enough to decide though ex disagrees.

Anyway, the point is this: I can't control my ex or what happens when my girls are out of town at his home. I am more spiritiual than religious and perhaps that is why it pains me more that he lives with his affair partner versus someone that he didn't cheat with.

I try to teach my kids how to be the best people they can be. I don't want them ever to be afraid to tell me something even if it is something I don't want to hear. As parents I believe we are here to give them unconditional love and support.

Your ex is burning bridges but hopes by getting your dander up, you will do the job for her. She wants you to look like the bad guy. So don't fall for it. Teach your kids by example how to be a good person. Let go of your ex and her life...it isn't yours to worry about anymore.

(((((NC)))))

hugs, kat
_________________________
M-50(and fabulous!)
S22, S19, D15, D14
Don't judge every day by the harvest you reap but by the seeds that you plant. Robert Louis Stevenson

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#1900945 - 12/24/09 12:20 AM Re: Unstoppable [Re: dday101798]
NoCodeBlues Offline
Member

Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 2580
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:
I have no need, I was where you are now.


Dylan,

I'm gong to say the same thing to you that you told everyone else when they urged you to caution in your own sitch -- my situation and the breakup of my MR and my family is nothing like your situation.

For several months before the bomb (if not years), and thus long before I was aware my then W revealed her utter contempt for me, she was carrying on an A with her coworker and making plans to not only divorce me, but to take away my S's and every single possession we owned, and to totally replace me as H and father in my own family with the OM. Moreover, she was at the same time, long before the bomb, secretly preparing and conditioning my S's to the idea of having a new father and a new blended family. All under my nose.

And since the bomb, my now xW has done absolutlely nothing but try to railraod me into accepting her plan to eliminate me first from her life, but also to elminate me from my family's life. There has never been one iota of remorse or contrition on her part, no admission of regret, nothing -- just the oppsosite, she has sought to malign me before family, friends, neighbors, teachers and caregivers for our children -- through outright lies and character assassination. She has taken us both to court and nearly bankrupted us both in her continual bid to remove me as our S's father. She insisted on liquidating the home we bought for our family in a sour housing market.

At no point has she expressed any degree of regret for the harm she has caused our family, let alone to me personally.

Can you honestly tell me that your ex at any point treated you with such unwarranted hatred? Do I need to spell out any more differences?


_________________________
Me: 49
WAW: 47
S11, S7
Years Married/Together: 17/18
Bomb: 6/15/07
Separation: 7/6/07
D: 4/3/09

Real love is a decision.
Marriage is a commitment.

Top
#1900963 - 12/24/09 12:54 AM Re: Unstoppable [Re: saffie]
NoCodeBlues Offline
Member

Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 2580
Loc: North Carolina
Saffie,

I really appreciate where you're coming from, and I will take your words under advisement. But I think you have jumped to the same conclusions that some of the others have by assuming that my asking my S's questions about what goes on when they are with their mother means I am trying to turn them against her. That is not my aim. I know full well that for me to do so, even if I happened to want to (which I don't), would surely backfire.

My sons need their mother as much as their father. I understand this a lot better than you give me credit for.

However, there is this matter of the cohabitation violation. It is a definite part of our legal order, which we both signed before the judge. The judge in our case approved and signed the order as well. It is legally binding -- ironically more so than the M contract we had, sad-to-say. I cannot in good conscious allow her to continue to skirt the agreement she demanded we have drawn up between us. To do so would be wrong and not in my interests or my S's.

Furthermore, I had that clause included in our agreement, with the full blessing of my L -- and defended it from alteration -- for the purpose of protecting my children from their mother's indiscretions. (And knowing full well it binds me as well.) I know the harm that can come to children's psychological, emotional and moral development when their parent fails to hide their philandering ways from them.

Are you thinking that defending my position and standing firm on this and other principles will cause more harm than good? I can assure you I am doing my part to compartmentalize the legal and moral dispute I have with my S's mother from the way I interact with and parent them. They know nothing of the custody suit that their mother filed against me except that the status quo was maintained. (Excepting of course what details xW has been telling them.)

Or should I do nothing? Just let her do what she wants with them even if it is in blatant violation of our agreement and exposes our S's to a whole lot more serious hurt down the road? Abrogate my responsibilities and my moral convictions as their parent and go off like so many fathers who decide to ignore their own children after a D?

I will consider your words. Honestly, I will. But I feel like I am forced to choose between the lesser of evils here.
_________________________
Me: 49
WAW: 47
S11, S7
Years Married/Together: 17/18
Bomb: 6/15/07
Separation: 7/6/07
D: 4/3/09

Real love is a decision.
Marriage is a commitment.

Top
#1900984 - 12/24/09 01:19 AM Re: Unstoppable [Re: kat727]
NoCodeBlues Offline
Member

Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 2580
Loc: North Carolina
Kat,

I want my kids to understand right from wrong. Maybe I am being too "hands on" with them when xW is much too laissez faire on the moral issues. For example, after chastising me for hardly ever taking our kids to church on my own when we were still M (mostly because I didn't really enjoy going without her, imagine that), she now espouses a very cavalier attitude about participation in a church community and raising them with an appreciation for the body of Christ. Prior to our R, we used to be on opposite sides of the fence, and now we're 180 degrees out of phase with our pre-M stances.

I know I am in danger of doing her dirty work for her. And I appreciate the warning. I have to balance that against failing to take proper action when it is really required. And I have no choice but to respond to her violating our agreement, even if it is to merely voice it to her. Which I did today in a brief note to xW (no reply as yet).
_________________________
Me: 49
WAW: 47
S11, S7
Years Married/Together: 17/18
Bomb: 6/15/07
Separation: 7/6/07
D: 4/3/09

Real love is a decision.
Marriage is a commitment.

Top
#1900999 - 12/24/09 01:57 AM Re: Unstoppable [Re: NoCodeBlues]
saffie Offline
Member

Registered: 06/18/07
Posts: 6274
Loc: England, UK
NC

Quote:
But I think you have jumped to the same conclusions that some of the others have by assuming that my asking my S's questions about what goes on when they are with their mother means I am trying to turn them against her. That is not my aim. I know full well that for me to do so, even if I happened to want to (which I don't), would surely backfire.


Nope, I in no way assume you are trying to turn your boys against their mom. I think you are a much better person than that and would never think so lowly of you. However, I think you may under estimate your sons' perception of your questions and I think they will see a connection between the answers they give and future actions taken. I also think that your W probably uses any information she can glean from your sons, ( I have an extremely LOW opinion of her), and I wouldn't put it past her to ask your son's about questions you may have asked them. In that way I feel they become unwitting pawns. I also think your W may plant ideas and information in your sons' heads in order to enflame you.

Quote:
My sons need their mother as much as their father. I understand this a lot better than you give me credit for.


I am sorry you don't think I credit you with that - that was never the intention I meant to give.


Quote:
However, there is this matter of the cohabitation violation. It is a definite part of our legal order, which we both signed before the judge. The judge in our case approved and signed the order as well. It is legally binding -- ironically more so than the M contract we had, sad-to-say. I cannot in good conscious allow her to continue to skirt the agreement she demanded we have drawn up between us. To do so would be wrong and not in my interests or my S's.

Furthermore, I had that clause included in our agreement, with the full blessing of my L -- and defended it from alteration -- for the purpose of protecting my children from their mother's indiscretions. (And knowing full well it binds me as well.) I know the harm that can come to children's psychological, emotional and moral development when their parent fails to hide their philandering ways from them.


Litigate all you want - doesn't stop hurt and emotional damage. You may have the legal rights on your side - but at what cost do you excercise them?

Quote:
Are you thinking that defending my position and standing firm on this and other principles will cause more harm than good? I can assure you I am doing my part to compartmentalize the legal and moral dispute I have with my S's mother from the way I interact with and parent them. They know nothing of the custody suit that their mother filed against me except that the status quo was maintained. (Excepting of course what details xW has been telling them.)


Yes to the first sentence in the above paragraph. YOU may be able to compartmentalise things but your W doesn't and she will just get more and more vindictive and she will drags you sons into this. She will bad mouth you. I have no doubt more bad than good will come of pursuing this.

Quote:
Abrogate my responsibilities and my moral convictions as their parent and go off like so many fathers who decide to ignore their own children after a D?


I don't for one second think you would ever ignore your children. However, by being too rigid you may cause them harm. I can see this escalating into them ending up infront of a judge being asked to make a choice between their parents - now that would be downright heartbreaking.

NC - I know you are hurting. I would be too. Your shoulders are wider than your sons though, and whatever you say, this will filter back to them.

I believe you are a father that is so in tune with his sons that you would notice changes in their behaviour if there was a major threat to them here. The moral damage has already been done by your W. You can't unring a bell. Don't make it worse - don't make your W want to poison those boys against you any more than she may already have done. I think your W is playing you like a fiddle and she wants to make you dance to the Devil's tune. frown
_________________________
Saffie
me 46
H 46
M in 1986
D20,D18,S16,D13
H's A 01/05 to 07/06
H recommitted to M 07/06
renewed vows 09/06
Going from strength to strength

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#1901000 - 12/24/09 01:58 AM Re: Unstoppable [Re: NoCodeBlues]
karen43 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/27/07
Posts: 4886
Loc: Florida
NC, I think it funny sometimes we are so critical of ourselves here, when our WAS are the poorest role models ever. But, I do think that means we need to be even better role models as a consequence; more loving, more forgiving, etc.

I think there is nothing wrong if your S is talking non-stop about the OM changing the subject, and if he continues, then ask him directly to talk about something else. I do that, and I feel fine about that. You are entitled to setting boundaries with your children like that imo. The rest, instead of telling them about the right behavior in life, you need to show them with your actions. I think that's a core DB principle, right?

Hope you don't feel attacked. I think we all here do care about your and your S's so hope you understand the spirit at least. I'll try to post again, but if not, Merry Christmas to you and your S'!!!!! smile
_________________________
Me 49
D13, S19

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