My UFO (unbelievably fabulous observations)

[hoosiermama]

Yes, D13 and I will be celebrating together on Friday or Saturday. It will be fine.

Apparently she does say "no" sometimes--just not always. She verbalized several months back that she has a fear that "he'll stop loving me like he stopped loving you." So I think she's trying, to a certain extent, to please him. I think that my supporting her ability to say "no," and stepping in to provide her an escape route, will be helpful in her willingness to hold her boundaries.

[hoosiermama]

Sorry, OT, but I have to disagree with you on a few points. Perhaps clarifying things will help.

I am aware that I no longer have a relationship with exH beyond co-parenting--and even that is limited by his apparent need for me to be invisible and just go along with all he feels entitled to. (Sorry, no longer married--don't have to go along!) I'm also aware that HIS family is HIS family--even though I was a part of that family for 20 years and have no relatives of my own. If they choose to end their contact with me--because they've heard no end of lies about me--that's their business, and his.

My concern here is not for my own feelings, but those of D13. She has expressed great discomfort about spending the day with the woman--to the point of having anxiety attacks. I don't--nor have I ever--probed for information, guilted her, or done anything to undermine her relationship with her father. She figured out--probably even before I did--that her father left for someone else. He has handled integrating that relationship into his relationship with his daughter very poorly--he had them meet on a spur-of-the-moment whim, without any preparation. She feels pressured to have relationships with her and her adult children, and he's been rather insensitive about prioritizing his own daughter--she feels like a runner-up in his heart to her daughters and grandson. These are all feelings she has poured out through tears. We have informal and flexible arrangements for holidays, mostly so that D13 can spend time with her cousins; she's with exH more on holidays than with me. So while this is "his" holiday, it's her wish to split it with me, rather than spending it with the OW (so what do you propose I call her now?) and her family. There's apparently a lot of tension between exH and his future MIL; D13 expressed that she didn't want to be "all nervous and waiting for another blow-up" on the holiday.

There would be no drama, no jerking-around. The plan is for D to call me when she's ready to come home; I would pick her up in the driveway, quietly. She has felt free to spend the whole day with her father, but she feels a distant second to OW and family when they are all together--she doesn't want to spend it with them.

Believe me, OT, if the past 18 months have taught me anything, it's that I'm entitled to nothing. ExH, on the other hand, has expressed that he feels entitled to have his "whole family" together whenever he wants it, without much regard to how that might impact his D. I grew up forced to live with the OM who came between my parents, to treat him as a father even tho he was an abusive alcoholic; I was told to "just get over it" because this was now my life. I refuse to shut my daughter's feelings down in the same way. I know how this feels to her, and it's not about my victimhood at all.

[hoosiermama]

Interesting evening. D13's choir sang at an interfaith Thanksgiving service, which in itself was fascinating. But what I'm referring to is that exH was there to hear her sing. He was squirming--it was my turf, I was sitting with friends whose kids are also in the choir. And he sat down several rows back--directly in front of my spiritual director! She's an older Franciscan nun, very wise and nurturing (in a very real way, not a dusty and pious one!). She's heard my whole story, for the past 7 years, actually. But never met the xH. At the end of the service she came up to say hello to D13 an exH was there, but beat a very hasty retreat before I could introduce him. She got the drift of the situation and her mouth dropped open--"he was sitting right in front of me! If I'd known that was who it was I would've punched him!"

[BeingMe]

Your spiritual director sounds really cool!

[hoosiermama]

Yes, she is definitely cool!

[Puppy Dog Tails]

Buy that woman a beer!!!! LOVE IT!!!!

[hoosiermama]

wish I could! punching's even better than rapping knuckles with a ruler!

[hoosiermama]

A bit of a new wrinkle, and I'd really appreciate some input from others.

I have not yet contacted xH about my picking up D13 before they go to OW's on Thanksgiving. This morning she and I talked about it, and I tried to verify that's what she wanted me to do. But she said she's refusing to make a choice, because if she doesn't go to OW's mom's, her father will just question her and bug her about what lovely people they are and how they want to be a part of her life (whether or not she wants them to be, apparently). She's very resistant to relationships with them, both because she is aware that the woman was the reason xH left his family, and because she feels way down on his priority list--after OW's adult children and grandson. But if she goes, it will be awkward and uncomfortable; xH will essentially ignore her or she'll be asked to keep an eye on the toddler while everyone else chats and eats, and if she tries to hang out with her dad--which is, after all, the point of visitation, is it not?--he will yell at her to stop being his shadow. So for her, either option is unattractive and will lead to her being uncomfortable.

I wish I could say that I will talk to xH and explain all this and he will understand and prioritize D13's needs over his own entitlements--however, most of us don't have WAS's who are that reasonable. He's already told her not to talk to me about OW and family. However, she doesn't feel he's listening to her feelings, and she needs to talk to someone--so she vents to me. Spontaneously, without being prodded or asked.

So it appears I'm on the horns of a dilemma here. I'd really appreciate any ideas you might have about how I can meet my daughter's needs here and make the holiday more positive for her; she has panic attacks about this stuff. I know I don't tend to get a lot of responses, but for those who have been through this, I'd be happy to hear your wisdom about it.

[hoosiermama]

Well, never mind. I ought to know better. There is some fundamental flaw that apparently renders me invisible both in real life and here. Sure wish I could figure it out.

[Gardener]

hm, I don't know your entiresitch, I've never been in such a position so, here are some grains of salt ****with which to take the following.
IMHO,

A bit of a new wrinkle, and I'd really appreciate some input from others.

I have not yet contacted xH about my picking up D13 before they go to OW's on Thanksgiving. This morning she and I talked about it, and I tried to verify that's what she wanted me to do. But she said she's refusing to make a choice, because if she doesn't go to OW's mom's, her father will just question her and bug her about what lovely people they are and how they want to be a part of her life (whether or not she wants them to be, apparently). She's very resistant to relationships with them, both because she is aware that the woman was the reason xH left his family, and because she feels way down on his priority list--after OW's adult children and grandson. But if she goes, it will be awkward and uncomfortable; xH will essentially ignore her or she'll be asked to keep an eye on the toddler while everyone else chats and eats, and if she tries to hang out with her dad--which is, after all, the point of visitation, is it not?--he will yell at her to stop being his shadow. So for her, either option is unattractive and will lead to her being uncomfortable.

I wish I could say that I will talk to xH and explain all this and he will understand and prioritize D13's needs over his own entitlements--however, most of us don't have WAS's who are that reasonable. He's already told her not to talk to me about OW and family. However, she doesn't feel he's listening to her feelings, and she needs to talk to someone--so she vents to me. Spontaneously, without being prodded or asked.

So it appears I'm on the horns of a dilemma here. I'd really appreciate any ideas you might have about how I can meet my daughter's needs here and make the holiday more positive for her; she has panic attacks about this stuff. I know I don't tend to get a lot of responses, but for those who have been through this, I'd be happy to hear your wisdom about it.

red=Your daughters well-being comes first. These are reasons enough to tell him, "She's not coming. We'll discuss it another time but she's not coming because she doesn't want to.PERIOD" Later, get your lawyer involved if you have to.

Blue = "Daddy, you have no right to tell me who I can or cannot talk to nor about what." She has that right. To tell him. Up to you as to whether you think she should or can without anxiety or panic attack.

Italics = I have not been through this, hm. But I think you meet her needs and make the holidays more comfortable by keeping her home and the hell with the consequences for now. Screw Husband'd reactions. "And she won't be with you on Christmas either if you don't stop treating her like a baby-sitter to be ignored and dismissed as a shadow when she seeks some time from her father!!"


HM, like I said, I don't know the whole sitch, and much of my advice may not be useful at (it's certainly mostly based on my emotions when reading this).

I'd be Goddamned if I'd send my daughter there until some agreements are reached, legally or otherwise.

p.s. Hope you've taken her to Dr. re panic attacks.