I just read AlexEn's sitch on dropping the D bomb on the kids at the beginning of August. Some great posts there. As is said so often, there are so many similarities.
I will be going through this part of the "process" in about a week or so. I don't expect s9 to react violently but he will be plenty pissed.
My W of course has all the books about coping too and is wanting to create handwritten books for s6 and s9, which sounds like more of the morally relativistic nonsense about how families don't end but relationships do. She'll want to develop a script.
We have a counseling session with a child psychologist next week and my W wants to tell the kids the same day. She now agrees that the children need time to process the situation, i.e. don't wait until the day before she is moving out.
I want to take the Coach approach and say nothing during the speech. I want her to own it because it's her choice, but don't want to seem vindictive or provide ammunition for my boys to build resentment toward W (though they already have), which is why I think saying nothing is probably best.
I don't think anything should be said about her spending or EA post bomb, but I'm not sure how to handle ambiguous explanations that skirt the truth. I believe my W will want to make this seem as innocuous and mutual as possible, i.e. "we've decided to end our marriage," but I worry about the "because" part of the statement. I'm wondering how to handle this aspect - the bullchit factor as PDT might say.
My W wanted to speak with me late Saturday night about custody schedules, property division, vacations, etc. I asked her what her intentions were in regard to living arrangements and working. She confirmed she is looking for another house to buy and has no plans to begin working full time for at least 6-8 months so she can finish course work in mediation(LOL) certification. W indicates her first priority is to be a Mom to our children and therefore will not work a regular job at least for a few years. I just sort of nodded and didn't get too agitated.
Her proposed custody schedule is more reasonable, but I let her know (again) that I will not accept less than 50% physcial custody and she starts saying she is offering more than I would get, asking if I know the law and hopes I am listening to my L - as if I am ignoring L's advice. She finally packs up her marbles and says we can fight it out in court along with everything else.
Funny, she was a little nicer the next morning.
Cabbr.
You can inform her that the law is going to decide in the best interests of the children, not in HER best interests. It isn't the 1970's anymore, if a man has shown that he's a good father, a good role model and willingly wants to take shared custody of his children, ie. 50%, he will get it - he just has to make he makes his intentions clear. It is no longer assumed that the mother is the best parent for children: there are too many child & family welfare studies that show the opposite.
Tell her that what she is offering is her futile attempt to control you and the outcome of what's going to happen. Just because she's taking law courses doesn't make her a judge, she doesn't know what the final decision will be and if she's half the legal beagle she's trying to make herself out to be, you tell her that any decision can be appealed several times and you won't stop fighting until you get treated equally & fairly which means 50% child custody. If she expects for you to just shrivel up and fall down and just take what's handed to you, she is mistaken.
If she really had the children's best interests in mind, remind her of this, she wouldn't even attempt to take the children away from you, she would agree to 50% child custody because she knows you're a good parent and she knows the children are in good hands when they're with you. Since she doesn't feel this way, she isn't operating out of basis for what's best for the children, she's operating out of what's best for her: she knows this, you see this, and the courts will see this and they will respond accordingly.
If she doesn't agree, then I guess you can tell her that she's going to have come up with quite a few really good reasons why you having 50% custody of the children is bad for them? The woman/man - mother/father stereotype isn't going to fly anymore - it didn't in my situation.
I was able to establish a pattern of behavior on my wife's part where her concern was for her best interests and not of the children's. Wreckless spending, not spending time with the children, only being with the children when it was convenient, taking odd jobs here & there, quitting jobs whenever she felt, not working because she didn't want to work full time (it's 2009, anyone & everyone should work unless your filthy rich), focusing more on her personal life and less on her children, severe mood changes, different personality, not being able to provide a secure & stable environment for the children, having to rely on me for everything, etc. The list went on & on.
You can tell her that you've been watching her and your list is long and she knows her past behavior has been wreckless and although past behavior isn't indicative of future performance, if you can list a considerable amount of questionable activity, you can raise quite a bit of doubt as to her capacity to be the sole primary custodial parent.
Cabbr, she still sounds like she enjoys some power in this situation with you, time to take her down a few notches, wake her up a bit, she won't be living in utopia when the divorce goes through, she'll have to put on her "big girl panties" and she might find they're a little uncomfortable since she hasn't worn them in a bit. ;-)
I don't have children so I cant really comment on that aspect. What I can gently suggest though is to avoid any "tit for tat" conversation w/your W about what your attny said or what her attny said. Because attny's will spin things to their clients and in turn the WAS will spin them even further to the LBS.
There is a reason for attny/client privilege and you are under NO obligation to share anything you and your legal counsel talk about.
I live in NY state where the divorce laws are a NIGHTMARE. Irreconcilable differences isn't even a legal ground for divorce here. My H's attny told him not to worry about his affair because the only way I could file for divorce with the ground of adultery is to have a third party witness say in a trial that they witnessed my H and his GF having sexual relations. What my H's attny FAILED to tell him was that I could file under the grounds of cruel and inhumane treatment because as per NY state law starting a sexual R outside of marriage *is* considered cruel and inhumane.
Adultery in NY is *very* hard to prove so most people think they will get off scott free when an affair is involved. Its not the case at all, one just must choose different grounds to file under.
As I said, I cant comment on the custody aspect or the laws of the state you live in but I can recommend you educate yourself as much as possible. It feels like CRAP to be served divorce papers but in a way it gives you a leg up. The day after I was served I marched down to the courthouse and found every public record I could about my H's attny and what firm won the most cases against him. My second stop was at that firm to retain them.
I also took a free class about divorce that was hosted by a local women's organization but men were more than welcome to attend as well. While this class was not to dole out legal advice it was informative about laws and rights, policy and procedure and other bits of information that can be vague if you have never worked with an attny or been through a divorce before.
I did this all very quietly and none of it was to be vindictive. Thankfully the firm that had the most success against my H's attny (the one I retained) also was a firm who had a philosophy that I liked very much.
Do not make threats about how you plan to handle your legal business. Just do what you can to educate yourself on your rights and find the most civil and kind way to execute them.
Our court hearing took less than 20 min. and my H and I were not even in the judge's chambers as we had reached an agreement on our own and our attny's simply had to put it on the oral record in front of the judge.
I made it very clear to my H I was NOT fooling around as far as my legal counsel went and while I would work with him as the law required me to do, my main goal was to protect myself and my future.
Funny thing is, my H's attny turned out to be a huge dirt bag and my H actually trusts my attny more than he does his own.
It is possible to protect yourself legally without a blood bath taking place. It takes some work and diligence but its not that far out of the realm of possibility.
Insofar as custody, I will just take her schedule and invert it every other week to achieve 50%. I told her the other day there are lots of ways to achieve this result, but she doesn't want to not see the kids on the weekend and won't accept not seeing them for 4 days in a row. She also doesn't want to alternate the schedule during the school week, so with all these preconditions it's almost not worth even having the conversation.
For the most part I've not been confrontational in respect to legal issues - just articulating my goals.
What you said about her being primarily focused on her own best interests is absolutely true and she knows having the children more nights means more support.
I like what you said about having to come up with some really good reasons why giving me 50% is bad for the children and that it's clear what she is proposing is not in the best interests of the kids. Most of the family court judges are also women with kids - who would likely have little sympathy for her position. Appeals are a tricky proposition because the standard for review is abuse of discretion by the trial court which is hard to meet, yet the fight can still be brought - forcing costs to be incurred.
My W is also intending to remain underemployed. She has an MBA and made 200k ten years ago. Currently she has a half dozen part time jobs, for which any high school student would be qualified. I can also establish a pattern of irresponsible spending and for the last 6 months I've been around the kids a lot more than she has.
This is one of my dilemas. I am reluctant to really go out much and develop a social life because I want to make sure my kids know that 50% of the parenting team is dedicated to them. My W sees this and certainly has exploited it at times.
There have been numerous times when my W would tell me at the last minute that she needed to go somewhere or do something school related when I got home from work and I would just say OK fine.
There is the DB technique of being mysterious and going out and perhaps even dating to instill the fear of loss versus showing an unassailable pattern of responsibility and dependability as a parent. One solution is to go out after the kids are in bed to catch a game or whatever.
The emphasis at this point has to be my kids. The DB stuff has to be a lower priority. But it would be fun to see what kind of reaction, if any, there would be from my W.
Since learning about the things s6 has been saying when she goes out, my W has been much more engaged with the kids and has been upbeat and pleasant around me. But the intel doesn't suggest any change in heart whatsoever. I think she has come to accept the simple fact that we are in limbo for a good 4-6 months and she wants to use this time to slowly disolve our boys' perception of our family, so she doesn't have to face as big a $h!t storm later on as well as exploit the financial aspect of us continuing to live under the same roof.
In regard to having power in this situation, on the surface that may be true - certainly with respect to my willingness to accommodate her schedule and accept her lack of involvement around the house. But the real end game here is custody and finances and I think I have positioned myself as well as I can on both fronts.
Short of insisting the kids be told of the pending D and being more openly confrontational in regard to custody, I'm not sure what else I can do to take her down a peg or whether I need to. I think on the advise of counsel she has nixed any efforts to date or find OM. As far as I can tell, she doesn't have the time anyway. Her EA imploded after exposure.
CABBR
M:49, W:47 M:22,T:23 S9, S6 W probable MLC Bomb: 4/09 In-house separation and Separate bedrooms since 4/09 EA busted: 7/09 W filed: 7/09 Kids unaware of D filing
The cruel and inhumane treatment angle is interesting.
My W engaged in a bit of gamesmanship early on - saying things like I could easily end up with one weekend a month and be required to leave the house, but I gave her Rob's "this is not the 1970's" speech and the fact that she has absolutely no reason to suggest that I can't take care of the kids as well as she. But now she just seems to think she is in the driver's seat on custody. I don't think so for many of the reasons Rob cited.
The day after I was served I marched down to the courthouse and found every public record I could about my H's attny and what firm won the most cases against him. My second stop was at that firm to retain them.
That^ was smart.
I also took a free class about divorce that was hosted by a local women's organization but men were more than welcome to attend as well. While this class was not to dole out legal advice it was informative about laws and rights, policy and procedure and other bits of information that can be vague if you have never worked with an attny or been through a divorce before.
The family court here offers this type of course and my W took it, but I did not.
Do not make threats about how you plan to handle your legal business. Just do what you can to educate yourself on your rights and find the most civil and kind way to execute them.
Good advice^ and I'm trying to follow it.
CABBR
M:49, W:47 M:22,T:23 S9, S6 W probable MLC Bomb: 4/09 In-house separation and Separate bedrooms since 4/09 EA busted: 7/09 W filed: 7/09 Kids unaware of D filing
I wouldnt be so sure a female judge is prone to be more sympathetic to your W. Originally we had a male judge (very nice, very fair) and it was my H's attny that actually requested a judge change to another judge who happened to be female (again, very nice and fair).
Considering my H had an affair and the illness I have my H's attny took a HUGE risk in requesting a judge change as there was a good chance the new judge would be female.
Judge's dont rule based on gender. There job is to examine facts and what is in the best interest of the child(ren). And your legal counsel will be able to present that in the best way for you.
Both judges we had (the male and female) didnt seem to handle things any different based on their gender. All I can say is they were both nice, fair, calm and from what I saw there was no bias based on gender.
The man judge was older and the female judge was younger. I dont think gender or age demographic plays a big a role as one would think. Or I should say in *my* experience it did not.
In our family court its about 50/50 with male to female judges.
Last night I told W we needed to tell the kids this week. She had wanted to wait until Thanskgiving - two days before she and kids would be gone for a few days. I said no way. That they need more time to absorb, adjust, grieve, etc. after gettin the initial bomb fropped on them.
She was concerned about them not having a break from school after being told. While that's a reasonable consideration, I thought it more important that both of us be there for them for at least a week subsequent to dropping the bomb on them.
I was also pretty adamant about them needing to know because we're not exactly modeling a healthy family life. I really dislike the way things have gone in that my W's actions have had the effect of slowly dissolving the framework of our family as if that's healthier for our boys than simply giving them an age appropriate explanation of the basic facts.
For the first time, I also made clear this would not be a "we" discussion. I said you can be as vague about the details but that I would correct her if she started saying anything about it being a mutual decision.
I was traveling last week on business and the whole situation was getting me down. I was really jetlagged and tired and became more emotional about everything.
I think she may attempt to delay further because her "plan" for leaving the marital home is not completely baked. Because of the risk of the kids finding out from other sources, I believe they should be told, so I wondering whether I should initiate the discussion if she prefers to wait. Bottom line is I think they have a right to know what's in store.
CABBR
M:49, W:47 M:22,T:23 S9, S6 W probable MLC Bomb: 4/09 In-house separation and Separate bedrooms since 4/09 EA busted: 7/09 W filed: 7/09 Kids unaware of D filing
Good for you for taking charge here. Yes, you should give her a "if you don't tell them, I will" deadline. "By this Sunday" would be reasonable.
Keep standing up for yourself, and -- more importantly -- FOR YOUR KIDS. Sadly, your wife does NOT have the family's best interests at heart right now, so that pretty much leaves you.
The good news is, as Coach would say, "You can handle it."
Good for you for taking charge here. Yes, you should give her a "if you don't tell them, I will" deadline. "By this Sunday" would be reasonable.
Keep standing up for yourself, and -- more importantly -- FOR YOUR KIDS. Sadly, your wife does NOT have the family's best interests at heart right now, so that pretty much leaves you.
The good news is, as Coach would say, "You can handle it."
Puppy
Thanks PDT,
It was my birthday over the weekend. I got back from a trip to the far east on Friday afternoon. My two boys were an absolute joy. They made welcome home signs. They painted little ceramic bowls for me. W worked that day, but made a cake and a nice dinner. No gift, but I surely didn't expect one. I brought home some toys for s6 and s10 and even a small gift for W. So the boys see some of the trappings of a normal family life - meanwhile the tsunami is looming.
Just this morning, my W sent me an email saying she wanted to tell the kids in phases because she read something about kids associating holidays and birthdays if they are around the same time as the bomb drop. That may be true, but the whole thing is going to be wrapped up inside of three months and I thought it extremely disrespectful to them as human beings and to their already fragile concept of family (whatever that might be at this point) to delay this any further.
She wanted to begin the dialgue with them by saying there is a problem. As soon as you say there is a "problem," s10 will inquire as to what that means and seek reassurances as to what it does not mean. They both know there is a problem. They've already been emotionally damaged by living in a house with a lot of tension and witnessing a non-relationship between the two most important people in their lives.
I told her that you're not going to anesthetize them from the pain by dragging it out. They are already hurt, confused and fearful. I don't want to ruin s9's birthday (early Dec) or Christmas, but there is really no choice - they need to know before it's all over.
So I will continue the discussion, but it will not go past this weekend.
CABBR
M:49, W:47 M:22,T:23 S9, S6 W probable MLC Bomb: 4/09 In-house separation and Separate bedrooms since 4/09 EA busted: 7/09 W filed: 7/09 Kids unaware of D filing
fwiw, when it looked like my wife and I were going to D (or at least S), we did kind of do it in "phases" with the boys, first telling them that "Mom and Dad are having some problems," and then letting them know when we went to a Retrouvaille weekend, and then to an MC, and then we started talking to them about the two residences, etc.
I am NO expert on this subject, but I remember saying to the fetching Mrs. Puppy "I dunno, I feel like either we're way lowballing the kids on this, or else we've totally hit on a great way to handle it, because they SURE are taking it well."
My older son (now 16), particularly, does NOT like surprises, and doesn't handle conflict very well. Telling him in "doses", I think, made it easier on him.
I do feel, that HOWEVER you do it though, they need to be told SOMETHING like YESTERDAY, because -- as you've noted -- their friends' parents know, and it's only a matter of time before they hear something from someone OTHER than their parents, which would be horrible.
I will take that to heart. We are pretty far down the road in my sitch and nothing has been said to illuminate what's really happening.
The MC train has come and gone and was largley a way for my W to save face - nothing more. No real skin in the game.
The D will be final inside of 3 months - my state doesn't belabor the issue. So even if done in phases, we are going to have to maintain a pretty short cycle. We may salage some normalcy during the holidays but immediately afterward, we will be divorced.
She may still be living in the house, but we'll be divorced. SO there is the option of phasing it in but not telling them when the D is final. That seems dishonest to them.
CABBR
M:49, W:47 M:22,T:23 S9, S6 W probable MLC Bomb: 4/09 In-house separation and Separate bedrooms since 4/09 EA busted: 7/09 W filed: 7/09 Kids unaware of D filing
